No more Mr Nice Guy...

[walldude]

So, you have a problem with one of the candidates. Fine, most of us do. You have a problem with some of their supporters. Fine, Most of us do. You are not going to vote for the Democratic nominee because of some perceived insult on DU? Fuck You. Did I say that loud enough for you? FUCK YOU. I am so sick of this shit it's not even funny.

2 weeks ago my wife had chest pains. She has diabetes and heart disease and we can't get health insurance for her because of her pre-existing conditions. She waited as long as she could in hopes that it would go away.(that in itself is a fucking crime) It didn't. We went to the emergency room. Luckily it turned out it was just a bad gastric attack. But it took blood tests, EKG's a Cat scan and visits from 2 doctors to figure it out. They wanted to keep her overnight just to be sure but we can't get health insurance so we opted to take her home. We got the bill. $7000 for 4 hours in the hospital.

My nephew has been stop lossed. He's in Iraq. Again. Oil? $120 a barrel. The dollar? All time low. Peoples homes are being foreclosed on. McCain's solution? WORK HARDER, TAKE A SECOND JOB. A second job? I'm a fucking roadie, I already work 16-20 hours a day.

There are a couple of seats up for grabs on the SCOTUS in the next few years, and the mess that Bush has left us is going to take a generation to fix. Yet I have to come on DU and listen to sanctimonious, self righteous bullshit about how some people will never vote for Obama or never vote for Clinton, because you don't like how their supporters are acting? Is this the mind of a liberal caring person?

Look, I'm asking for your help here. Vote for the goddamn Democrat, no matter who it is. If not for you for my family and all the other families like mine. Honest hard working people who are getting screwed. If you can't manage to stir up enough compassion for people in need then... please... go fuck yourself.

:rant:

[NewHampshireDem]

1. Yup! K&R

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5869000

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4775205&mesg_id=4775205

[NJmaverick]

2. K & R

[silverweb]

3. Amen.

Righteous rant and well said. K&R.

[Kittycat]

4. K&R

:hug:

[Goodnevil]

5. Best post since this mess started

Well done.

[PoliticalAmazon]

167. Yeah, if you want to make sure that Hillary supporters ABSOLUTELY don't vote for Obama...

Look, the forum had just started settling down. I noticed some Hillary supporters weren't lashing out as much.

Then Mr. "I Know The Right Way to Vote for Every Democrat" posts his hate-filled angry screed. Is that helping Obama in his job to win over the Hillary supporters? I think NOT.

None of us have the right answer for other voters. It is each individual's right, responsibility and honor to vote for the person THEY think will do the best job.

We are making Obama's job harder if we try to force him on others. I believe, given time, and if Hillary ever stops stirring up their fears and angers, they will get the kind of bigger perspective to make the right choice for president.

But this will be the right choice for THEM, not for you, not for Mr. Know-It-All.

If you expect others to accept your voting decision, then you might want to try extending the same courtesy to them.

[Jakes Progress]

181. They don't care about November.

So much of DU is becoming like some Hooters during a bowl game. "Hoo Hah. In your Face!!"

They prefer gloating and preening to going after McSame.

[JuniperLea]

182. My thoughts exactly... so I started this thread today...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5902706&mesg_id=5902706


All of us who are tired of the cheerleading should get serious about talking trash on McCain! There's so much fodder there!

[PoliticalAmazon]

189. I have faith in my fellow Democrats. We may stray from time to time, but we,,,

...always come back into focus again.

What is unfocusing now is Hillary, the DLC, and the DNC. The leadership of the Dem Party has SUCKED for 12 years at least. They are so disconnected from their voters, and they coninue to use failing strateies even when those strategies have repeatedly failed.

That's why I don't advocate voting for anything with a (D) in front of its name in the GE, because the DNC has a tremendous amount of impact on the winnowing out of the initil pool of candidates. In 2004, they actively sought to derail Howard Dean, and were successful. They had been pushing John Kerry, and he turned out to be the GE candidate. He was not a good choice. The DNC, insisting the reeatedly failing DLC strategy of sucking up to Republican voters and ignoring the Democratic Party's liberal base, chose Kerry who, while he may be more conservative, he did not have th guts and drive to stand up for our votes in the Ohio vote fraud.

We appear to be lucky so far. It was quite obvious that the DNC was pushing Hillary in the beginning, but the vigorous support of OBama, both in volunteer work and in donations, appears to have made the DNC take a second look.

Of course, the DNC could still derail Obama if they wanted to, but I doubt they would at this point.

So, have faith in our fellow Democrats. I believe Obama can win them over, and if we just let them get a little distance between them and Hillary's divisive, agitating tactics, I think Obama will have an easier job.

Just my opinion...your mileage may vary.

[JuniperLea]

6. I'm with you, walldude!

Man what a fucking drag about your wife. I've heard a lot of similar stories lately, and I can't figure out why we haven't taken this to the streets yet!

It's time to focus on the big McCain smackdown! Forget who is the better Dem candidate... we've all made up our own minds on that one. We need a concerted effort in the task at hand, and that is making sure a Dem sits in the White House!

Rant on, dude! Rant on!

PS - Wish I was a roadie... the only experience I've ever had includes one night at The Palace, setting up for these guys...

[walldude]

18. Is that Lemmy?

I've done a few Motorhead shows, they are a great bunch of people, band and crew.. The last few years I've been doing mostly country music, it's not as hectic, we usually go out Wed and come home Sun. Rock tours are 6 and 7 days a week and I'm just not that young any more. However if Zeppelin comes calling, I'm there :)

[JuniperLea]

32. Yeah, Lemmy

And Mikki Dee...

People ask, was Lemmy really grabbing your boob? Well, not really, but you should have seen what Mikki was doing to my ass! LOL!

Mmmmm... Zeppelin... no shit! I'd crawl out of the grave to work that gig!

[ExPatLeftist]

98. Is that Lemmy grabbing your breast?

Hell yeah.


(Edit - sorry - I was so psyched that I stopped reading other posts. Asked and answered.)

[JuniperLea]

125. Sigh... the memories:)

My boyfriend brags about that... he says he feels honored:)

[ExPatLeftist]

133. Yeah, Lemmy is one of the few guys that could get away with grabbing

the breast of a girlfriend of mine... ;) I'd probably plaster that pic on the back of my Rickenbacker or something... ;)

[JuniperLea]

138. Now that would be highly appropriate!

Lemmy is a good cat... and one of the best and most prolific metal songwriters of our time.

[Schema Thing]

7. Sorry, I just can't vote for Gravel

[SeattleGirl]

8. Amen, amen, and AMEN!!!!!

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. Well said

[Symarip]

10. We're smart, tough, pissed off...

And there's more of us.

Time to bitchslap an old man into retirement.

[Goodnevil]

13. Keep this thread growing

This is why we're here. I have a similiar story to his. Many of us do. It's time to ante up and kick in.

[DaveJ]

11. Getting a 2nd job is definitely a dumb idea...

Sure, one could work longer hours or seek to excel at one job, but nah, McCain says to get a 2nd job, so that way both employers will see you tired all the time and tell you your work sucks causing one to never get ahead in life. What a solution that is. :eyes:

McCain will never understand these problems are not brought on by the victims, but by financial predators and others who seeks to keep everything for themselves.

[KansDem]

12. "Democrat for President--2008"

Anything else is sheer madness...

[Faygo Kid]

14. Thank you, and best wishes for resolving your problems.

I promise to fight against the war and for health insurance, and I will remember this post.

[sandnsea]

15. Alright, alright, for you

I would vote for the election stealer - for you. Because there would be an outside chance Hillary would do something good, whereas there's no chance with McCain.

Sorry about your wife. It's been a helluva spring for illness. I had to reduce my dairy and raw fiber to get my gastric pain under control. Maybe that's all your wife needs to do too.

[walldude]

25. Exactly. I'm no Hillary fan but I'm not going to vote against

my best interest either. I hope for Obama and will hold my nose and vote for Hillary. Thanks! :toast:

[woolldog]

56. ....

[grassfed]

16. Hillary or McCain what's the difference?

Hillary
YES on the Iraq War Resolution.
YES on Kyle/Lieberman bill that sets the stage for the US to take illegal military action against Iran (fool me once).
NO on Amendment No. 4882 that would have banned the use of cluster bombs in civilian areas.
YES on Bankruptcy bill which stripped protections for people in debt.
Hillary refused to sign the AFC Anti-Torture Pledge

McCain
YES on the Iraq War Resolution.
YES on Kyle/Lieberman bill that sets the stage for the US to take illegal military action against Iran.
NO on Amendment No. 4882 that would have banned the use of cluster bombs in civilian areas.
YES on Bankruptcy bill which stripped protections for people in debt.
McCain refused to sign the AFC Anti-Torture Pledge

[frickaline]

20. I can answer that

[EstimatedProphet]

159. That's a good answer

If people can't see the difference between Hillary and McCain then they need to fucking open their eyes.

[JuniperLea]

161. Or join their buddies in the GOP

Takes balls to post nonsense like that on a Democratic message board... what a moran... I'm series!

[PoliticalAmazon]

169. Instead of nae-calling, can you give reasons why you believe Hillary...

...would be different than McCain?

Give examples of her actions since she has been in the Senate and on this campaign.

I'll tell you one thing: anyone who assumes that she would not continue to pander to racial bigots, especially if it is near elction time, is very naive, and that puts us in dangr of her making a racist-bigot appointment.

Do you really think that a Dem Congress will oppose a Dem president's appointment? Highly unlikely.

So stop the name-calling and make logical arguments based on sound reasoning. If you can't make a decent argument for your case, then at least stop name-calling of posters who point ou that you can't.

[PoliticalAmazon]

200. You realize you're pulling a "Hillary," don't you?....

How did it feel when Hillary told us when we wouldn't support her that our votes weren't important? That our states weren't important? That our demographic wansn't important?

Did you feel insulted? I did. Did you get angry and become more strongly committed to Obama's campaign? I sure did. Did you vow that, since Hillary told the world that my vote was unimportant to her that I would NEVER vote for her again, certainly not for president? I did, AND HOW!

So how do you think the Hillary supporters--disappointed and angry--hear that, if they won't knuckle under to supporting your candidate, that they should go to another board or join the GOP or whatever?

I bet they are even more angry, even more strongly committed to Hillary, and they may even be at the point where they have vowed that they will NEVER vote for Obama, ever.

Now that's a really good tactic for uniting the Dems so we can win in NOvember.

Here's a clue: we cannot win without Hillary's supporters. That is a fact.

My opinion: Some of the Hillary supporters are reactive now and reacting by lashing out at the handiet target: Obama supporters here within their reach.

Obama supporters can take the high road, like Obama is doing, by not reacting to their anger, giving them space to reflect on what has happened and on the bigger picture facing us all: Repairing the destruction 8 years of Bush/Rove have done to our country.

I have confidence that the Hillary supporters, once Hillary isn't agitating them with her hate and anger, will make the best decision regarding who to vote for in November.

We were able to come together after Dean withdrew from the 2004 primary, and I'm confident we can do it again in 2008.

[PoliticalAmazon]

168. AGAIN with the failed USSC logic....

I believe that Obama is the only current candidate we can logically assume will not make conservative/neocon-favoring judicial appointments.

To predict what type of appointments will be made by a president, one must look to their past actions and prioritization of issues.

Hillary has sucked up to Republicans, she has practically endorsed McCain, she has appeared repeatedly on Fox and even on O'Reilly's, she is a DLC political whore who eagerly does their bidding, she has voted more often to endorse the Bush/neocon agenda than she has voted against it, she has panderd to bigots and is on the road to splitting our party and our country along racial lines, something I thought we'd never seen again. AND she has used tactics that are even worse than Rove/Bush.

So what makes you think that she will, magically and totally out of character for her now, make the right decision about the USSC?

And if she doesn't, do you actually believe that a Dem majority Congress will challenge a Dem president? It would greatly weaken the Dem president and, therefore, weaken the power of the Dems in Congress, thus lessening the Congressional Dems' chance for reelection.

So, just because it is a Dem, we can't assume they will make choices that are not conservative/neocon favoring.

Up until a few years ago, Lieberman was a Dem. Do you think he, as president, would do better than McCain?

Hillary has gone beyond Lieberman in this primary. Therefore, I believe it is illogical to assume that she will magically, and out of character, not appoint conservative/neocon judges.

[grassfed]

194. I'm saving your post

Well said. I fear she's positioning herself to appear stronger than Obama (not to mention very white) following an Iran strike. Her failure to apologize for her IWR vote as Kerry and Edwards did, Kyle Lieberman and Obliterate comment is very ominous. Frightening. Her supporters must consciously or unconsciously approve of some basic neocon premise.

[JuniperLea]

180. Darn! I would have loved to see...

Ignored's answer to that! And what they said in response to my post... naw... that's the reason for ignore, right? And mind you, it takes a LOT to get on my ignore list... which is very sparse since so many of them have been tombstoned. Man, I can't wait for this nightmare to end and all the... never mind... that was a very wicked thought:)

:rofl:

The SCOTUS answer is by far the definitive. You're spot on.

[melody]

21. Very simple -- the (D) after her name -- that is all that matters

To be a Democrat ... even a conservative one ... in Bush's Washington is to demonstrate remarkable strength of character.

[walldude]

28. Well we can start with health care.. then SCOTUS

Then you can read this:

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/05/07/john-mccains-top-10-out-of-touch-moments/#more-29032

Might remind you that even though many of us see Hillary as McCain lite, at least it's lite. I'm a full on Obama supporter but I know Hillary at the very least will try to get health care to people who need it. And I can always hope for change from her.

[grassfed]

48. not "lite" - HC's a full fledged neocon

We have 2 examples of her executive abilities to predict what her WH would be like
Health care fiasco torpedoed by high handed elitism, poor planning and secrecy
Her pres campaign - no comment necessary

[Jennicut]

72. Rove vs. Wade. climate change, healthcare

Hillary is better on all those issues but it does not matter, Obama has this nomination in the bag, just waiting for the formalities.

[JBShakes]

121. Ummm...

That's ROE v. Wade.

Had it been "Rove" v. Wade (as in Karl Rove's mother fighting for the right to have an abortion)...

I'm not going to finish the joke because it's too mean...even to direct at el Turdblossom.

[JBShakes]

123. Oh yeah...

And kickitty kick kick kick for the OP. And dude, be as vulgar as you want.

I'm all for civility when we're discussing policy disagreements, tactics, etc., but when you're dealing with people who would HONESTLY let McSame take the White House in a fit of pique over THEIR preferred Dem not getting the nomination (and this goes for Obama supporters, too), well...

Fuck 'em. Kick 'em in the pants and wake them up. FAR too much at stake to worry about hurting anybody's wittle feelings.

"I'm not going to tell you what you want to hear, I'm going to tell you what you NEED to hear." -- Some guy I respect.

[Jennicut]

204. Sorry, I meant Roe, its too bad the turdblossom even exists

[PVnRT]

130. Wow. Way to completely miss the point.

[LSK]

162. Healthcare, Economics, Tax Policy, Torture, Childcare, Environment, Party

:shrug:

[Danger Mouse]

177. There's a pretty big fucking difference.

[frickaline]

17. K&R, I agree however I do still think people here need reminders toward civility

The angry insults I sometimes see don't help anything, but its no excuse for not supporting your party.

[walldude]

22. I don't disagree, but it's part of the process and much of it

I believe is just trolls. I tried a few months ago to do threads calling for more civility but I gave up. I try to be civil as much as possible but there was a thread today where the OP claimed he/she would sit back and laugh while watching one of the candidates lose to McCain. It was the catalyst for this post. I'll take as much heat from the other side as they can dish out as long as we come together in the end and do what needs to be done.

[frickaline]

29. amen ... thx for posting all this.

[melody]

19. Superb post -- thank you for making it n/t

[HCE SuiGeneris]

23. I'm with you walldude. Perfectly expressed.

And, I wish you and yours better times moving forward. :grouphug:

[mmonk]

24. Use "go Cheney yourself". Sounds a lot .....worse!

[Toucano]

26. Adios, Mr. Nice Guy.

Bienvenidos Mr. Pissed Off Guy :)

[glowing]

27. Thank you.. As a progressive you always fight an uphill battle..

Progressive, liberal, activist types are always fighters and at times you have to fight the Dems too.. They cave better than the pugs..

[Goodnevil]

30. We really need to take a hard look at ourselves

as progressives, liberals and democrats and ask ourselves what kind of country we want to live in. I suppose if you're a limosine liberal it only matters in principle. If you're Walldude or myself, it matters in ACTUALITY.

Our choices are limited because of the choices we have made as Americans over the past generation. So we're going to have to make the best of a bad situation even if it means compromising on a candidate.

We need these changes in order to survive. If these changes, especially in health care, don't go through I'm going to leave for another country. If I can't leave I'm going to join the first revolution that starts. I seriously doubt I'll be alone, either.

I'll bet Walldude will be standing the wall with me.

[walldude]

31. Welcome to DU!

And yeah I'm with you, and I've also been examining my options as far as letting the American door hit me in the ass on my way out. I'd rather make a change here, not just for us but for the entire world, but if Americans want this kind of country I'll have no choice but to leave. I'm lucky enough to have viable options if it comes to that..

[Goodnevil]

33. Good song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSdfnuDR6bg&feature=related

[walldude]

36. Funny, That's where I am right now.

They are putting us to shame as far as recycling goes. There is a recycle bin next to every trash can.

[Goodnevil]

46. They don't have as much

crap as we do...but I think that they are happier. I'm planning a visit to Vancouver soon.

[FatDave]

144. Canada doesn't want me.

I don't have a college degree and i don't speak French, so no dice. Unless they lower their immigration standards, I'm stuck here. I have considered Costa Rica though.

[walldude]

209. WTF?

I don't have a college school degree and I don't speak French, but I have a temporary residence permit for Canada.

[OwnedByFerrets]

89. I, too, have considered leaving......

there are so many problems associated with leaving if you are older.

[rambler_american]

126. Leaving

My wife and I sold a beautiful property in New Brunswick overlooking the Bay of Fundy with views all the way to Nova Scotia. If somehow McCain gets elected I will kick myself repeatedly.
If McSame gets elected this country is sooo f*cked.

[ekwhite]

75. Some of us don't even have the option to leave

My nephew is unemployed and HIV positive. He can't even take a part-time job for fear of losing Medicaid - the medicine by itself would be thousands of dollars a month. He would leave this country now, if he could.

[TBF]

81. Well, as a limousine liberal, latte liberal, or whatever name we're being called

lately I just wanted to post that I'll stand with you. It doesn't just matter in principle. I may be able to take a nice vacation now and then, and be able to afford the crazy health insurance premiums (we are now paying $700+ a month in premiums), but that doesn't mean it is easy or desirable. Despite our income levels we all face some very serious threats, especially in the area of national security. While Hillary spouts off about "obliterating" countries I worry that she, like George Bush, is on her way to starting WWIII. When missiles start flying it isn't going to matter one damned bit whether you make $8 or $80 an hour, right? Like I said, I stand with you.

[walldude]

34. Kicking for those

compassionate caring women in that other thread... I am astounded.. really. :cry:

[applegrove]

35. Well said. We will come together when this nomination race is over.

[Lucky 13]

44. That time is now.

I know you can't see it, but it is. Please consider it.

[knixphan]

37. Yep yep yep!

and read this:

http://www.powells.com/biblio/18-9781576754634-0

[walldude]

38. Already read it! Hartmann is amazing.

Thanks! :toast:

[izzybeans]

39. The fragile selfishness of some people is sad. K an R. Nice Rant.

Although I am sure that about 95% of those claiming they will not vote are nothing more than right-wing trolls.

[walldude]

40. kick...

[Left coast liberal]

41. Excellent rant! I am with you 100%. Let's keep our eyes on the prize!

[roguevalley]

42. God bless you and yours, walldude. Better times HAVE to come.

[swishyfeet]

43. Nice rant dude nt

[DevonRex]

45. K&R and AMEN. nt

[Jed Dilligan]

47. K/R

But don't worry, they just want to "punish" the people who were SO mean to them--or else they were always trolls who never planned to vote for a Democrat.

[Gore1FL]

49. Well said.

and to the point.

You put more perspective on this race than I hjave seen in the entirety of GD:P

[TragedyandHope]

50. Work Harder

[CadenBlaker]

51. Just Say No To Kyle!

No more Kyles!

Hold your nose people and vote for either.

[tavalon]

52. Walldude

I came in here (GDP) today to make a post about sexism. I've been wandering around a bit since I came, since I haven't been in here voluntarily for months. I always read NanceRants when she posts here but then I go away without reading the replies. Anyway, there is shit going on in here that is just, well, disgusting. I would heartily recommend that you walk away from GDP, let it go, let them eat each others rotten to the core corpses. After this shitfest is over, these people will mostly become human again and those that don't, won't be welcome on DU.

You aren't going to influence anyone in here. They're sick. Let them be and save yourself.

[grantcart]

53. actually getting tough is all about being nice - nice to the people and not the corporations

this time were just not going to let anybody out

[donheld]

54. I'd recommend it a million times if I could

Thanks for posting this.

[Arrowhead2k1]

55. If this forum did stickies,

I'd wish this OP be stuck to the top to remind everyone here exactly what's at stake. This goes way beyond me, you, DU, Obama and Clinton. This concerns future generations the world over for fuck sakes! Quit being silly and vote for what's good for America and the world!

[Sunnyshine]

57. K&R- I will gladly help you.

Go Dems!

[NM Independent]

58. K&R

I just rec'd this thread soooo fucking hard.

My family is just as bad. I have severe chronic pain, and dealing with the financial burden from that while trying to earn enough to support a 4 person family is a BIG challenge. Of course, I can't take any disability unless I want to make so little as to be considered working poor, and it takes around 2-3 years just to get on disability. Why bother if I'll just lose it if I make too much one year and have it taken away. So, I get to work a job, run my home business, my wife gets to work 2 jobs, and we'll try to keep the bills paid with $4 gas and ever increasing food costs. At least I'm finally insured, but only because Gov. Richardson made it possible for people like me to get insurance through a program with the state (found out about it after being turned down 8 times for pre-existing conditions).

As I said several months ago when I heard this shit starting here - anyone who knows what the hell is going on in this world, knows just how dire the situation is, and still VOTES AGAINST THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE is nothing less than a TRAITOR and is guilty of TREASON.

No more Mr. Nice Guy is right.

If you do it, please know that your slow painful death will have been wished and prayed for.

[SeattleGirl]

59. No more Mr. Clean!

And no more Ms. Clean.

I am tired of feeling apologetic for supporting Obama.

I do, and that's that for me!

[Mongooseflies]

60. RIGHT THE F' ON!

H/T K&R & The WHOLE kaoboodle

[Vinca]

61. Another recommend.

My husband is in the same boat and can't buy insurance at any price. Like you, walldude, we're too "well off" for any government-assisted healthcare.

[Apollo11]

62. One of the best posts I ever read here on DU.

:applause:

[Jemmons]

63. Re. "pre-existing conditions"

Why cant people make the connection between "national interest" and "universal healthcare"?

[DeeDeeNY]

64. K & R

:kick:

[PerpetuallyDazed]

65. Right on!!!

This post needs to be read far and wide--bookmarking for later use.

[Owl]

66. K&R!

[mhoran]

67. I have nothing to add

This post says it all. Thanks.

[graycem]

68. Exactly...

short of finding either of them hovering over a dead body with a bloody knife, it's pretty much our duty as human beings, Americans, to vote for the Democrat (we are the only party who wants to get us out of this idiotic war).

Hang in there, there are better days coming. I believe that most of America is starving for that change. :)

[Eurobabe]

69. Pledge to vote D. K&R

[L0oniX]

70. K&R

[ekwhite]

71. Kicked and Recommended

Sorry to hear about your wife. We need to elect a Democratic president and a Democratic congress to go with him.

[myrna minx]

73. K&R n/t

[bluescribbler]

74. Agree 100%

My wife has been battling stage 4 melanoma for 10 years. If not for insurance, I'd have been bankrupt years ago.

I'm losing my job at the end of June. Reduction in Force. I'm getting lots of calls from employers and head hunters who've seen my resume online, but they all want me to take a 20% pay cut. I can barely get by on what I'm earning now, and they want me to take an effing 10% cut??? :wtf:

We need a Democrat in the White House. We cannot afford 4 more years of the same class war we've had for the past eight years.

[NightOwwl]

76. Bravo

Thanks for slapping some much-needed sense into me.

[avenger64]

77. Nader will give us universal health care and get us out of Iraq...

... I doubt Obama will achieve either.

[Usrename]

78. That's just too nutty to try and wrap my brain around.

You don't really believe that Nader is going to get us out of Iraq and give us universal health care, do you?

You can really see this happening in our future, Nader being elected president?

[avenger64]

85. It's as likely as Obama getting elected ...

... there's not going to be any caucuses in November, where Barack can shmooze party delegates to take the back-door to victory, and he's certainly not going to win the red states he got during the nomination fight during the general election. He's going to lose, Nader's going to lose - might as well vote for someone I agree with.

[rambler_american]

91. Nader lost in 2000 too

and look who we got. Thanks to fools like you.

[avenger64]

92. Yeah, Gore was going to win South Carolina, I'm sure ...

... tell you what, Obama comes out for national health insurance, instead of selling out to special interests, and I'll vote for him.

[rambler_american]

96. South Carolina?

Hell, Gore WON Florida and the recount that finally showed that (too late) would not have been necessary if Nader hadn't siphoned all those votes. "course if the Repubs hadn't disenfranchised 80,000 black voters that too would have been a moot point.
As to national health insurance, I'd prefer a socialized health care system vis a vis England, Canada, France and the rest of Western Europe to a national health INSURANCE program but maybe that's a first step. I agree Obama should get on board.

[Usrename]

107. Oh, now I think I understand what you mean.

You don't think it's important to try and stop our descent into fascism, you just want to make sure that your candidate agrees with you on... what is it?... national health insurance.

Why is that issue so important to you? Do you mean a single-payer system when you say national health insurance?

I think it's important right now to try and repudiate the whole Bush Doctrine (the entire neocon message of tax cuts for the rich, secret law for the unitary executive, deregulation and privatization of everything, preemptive war, suspension of habeas corpus, the use of enhanced interrogation techniques, and all the rampant "in your face" criminal cronyism) and I believe that anyone who doesn't make a serious effort to defeat John McCain is guilty of supporting the Bush Doctrine. But that's just the way I look at it.

[avenger64]

111. Well, tell me this...

... what exactly is it that Obama's going to do that's going to be so great? Bring people together? Hope and change? If he's willing to sell the party out on single-payer health insurance to get elected, what exactly is left that makes him so appealing to you?

[JBShakes]

128. I think you need to spend a little more time reading Senator Clinton's...

proposal on health care. NEITHER candidate is offering single-payer, nationalized health care. BOTH Senator Clinton and Senator Obama are offering a government-subsidized alternative to private or employer-provided health care for those whose employers don't provide a health care plan, for those who can't afford it, or for those who are dissatisfied with their present plan.

The primary difference between the two proposals has to do with mandates - Senator Obama's plan calls for a mandate for all parents to provide healthcare for their children - while Senator Clinton's plan comes with a mandate that everyone has to have some form of insurance.

The point that people like Elizabeth Edwards have made (and with which I agree, at least on a theoretical level) is that in order to keep healthcare costs down, all people need to be covered so that hospitals and healthcare organizations don't pass on the costs for providing emergent treatment to the uninsured to their customers.

BUT - riddle me this, Batman - if you make health insurance MANDATORY for everyone, how do you enforce that? Are you going to start turning away the uninsured, even in emergent situations? I think the difference is a negligible one.

Frankly, single-payer, nationalized care is the only way to make sure that everybody's actually covered, but that also means putting hundreds of thousands of Americans out of work when all the HMOs and such go out of business. So what's the solution?

Just asking, Avenger. And making sure you have ALL the facts before you make a decision to sit this one out, or worse...

[avenger64]

137. You didn't answer the question about why you like Obama?

Let me guess - Hope and Change? Bringing both sides to the table? Giving it a hunnert-and-ten percent?

[JBShakes]

141. Fair question-

How's this:

-Middle class tax cut.
-Opening DOJ investigations into price-fixing by big oil.
-Windfall profit tax on big oil.
-College tuition tax credit in return for public service.
-16-month withdrawal of combat troops from Iraq.
-Finally, the "Hope and Change" you so cynically dismiss is actually beginning to inspire people to affect change in their communities - how else do you explain the gigantic surge we've seen in new voter registrations? The highly organized, grassroots campaigning style? 1.5 million individual donors averaging a small contribution per?

Both political parties have been electing leaders for FAR too long based on promises that the leader's going to solve everything for them - Senator Obama's background as a community organizer gives him an insight into how REAL change happens - when people start standing up for themselves, and for their communities.

There are far too many communities in this country who have been hearing either "don't worry, we'll fix it for you (by throwing a bunch of money at problems we don't really understand or care all that much about)", or "pull yourself up by your own bootsraps - personal responsibility!".

So for a change, it's nice to hear someone say "this isn't going to be easy - and we're all going to have to work on it together."

But please, by all means, continue to glibly characterize me and every other supporter of Senator Obama as people who simply can't think for ourselves. We're just blind sheep.

I mean, we can't all be as astute as you - voting for Nader. SMART move, man. Enjoy the draft when McSame invades Iran.

[jonestonesusa]

148. Funny how Avenger runs away after you answer...

Thanks for engaging in the dialogue.

[JBShakes]

151. No problem...

Look, I really do understand where he's coming from in some ways. If you come at politics (or anything, really) from a place of being cynical and jaded, people talking about transformative change seem absolutely bat-shit crazy. But cynicism and "I can outslime you" tactics have gotten us where we are right now. And where we are right now kinda sucks.

The funniest thing is - I've been EXACTLY where he is. I voted for Nader in 2000. And I've regretted it every single day since.

[avenger64]

158. Ok ...

... Middle class tax cut - fine, but won't that drive up the federal deficit? And isn't Hillary promising the same thing?

...'Big Oil'. He can open all of the investigations he likes - the cause of increasing oil price is demand - demand from China, India, the U.S. What Obama certainly will not have the courage to say is that we've wasted too much oil, and we're going to have to change our way of life. And, in fact, Obama's campaign is as in the pocket of oil companies as a Republican one. sad stuff.

... 16-month withdrawal from Iraq. If you believe that, I've got some beachfront property in Minnesota I want to sell you.
In fact, Obama, who says he's against the war, missed his chance to help end it by voting to fund it.

...Hope and Change. It could be that the new voters are hoping and changing, but it might just be that they just think he's going to bring welfare back.

... And don't forget that he changed his mind on Health care - he used to be for single-payer, but he 'evolved' into a private solution that won't be universal.

And btw, I'm too old to be drafted, though I think it might be the way to end all of these wars, as then we'll get serious public resistance.

[JBShakes]

178. Good points. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

"... Middle class tax cut - fine, but won't that drive up the federal deficit? And isn't Hillary promising the same thing?"

-Not if you couple it with eliminating the Bush tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans, pushing the capital gains rate back up to where it was in the 90's, and start getting serious about closing corporate tax loopholes. And yes, she is - I'd be perfectly happy voting for her, if she somehow manages to get the nomination.

"...'Big Oil'. He can open all of the investigations he likes - the cause of increasing oil price is demand - demand from China, India, the U.S. What Obama certainly will not have the courage to say is that we've wasted too much oil, and we're going to have to change our way of life."

-Courage? Like the courage it took to talk about radically increasing fuel efficiency standards to automakers in Detroit? And since when is investing $150 billion dollars in green-collar jobs to reduce dependency on oil NOT changing our way of life? Windfall profit taxes and price fixing investigations are part of a short-term solution to the immediate problem - but he's proposed a very interesting long-term solution, which you're conveniently ignoring. And I probably should have mentioned it in my list.

"And, in fact, Obama's campaign is as in the pocket of oil companies as a Republican one. sad stuff."

-Evidence, please? - and please don't tell me about his donor list - if a guy working in HR for Shell makes a $25 donation to a campaign, that's not even REMOTELY the same as taking lobbyist or PAC money - and I think you're smart enough to know that.

"... 16-month withdrawal from Iraq. If you believe that, I've got some beachfront property in Minnesota I want to sell you."

-Ah, beachfront property jokes. Hi-larious. So I should vote for the guy with NO realistic shot of winning an election, and hand the Presidency to the ONE candidate who's NOT proposing a withdrawal because YOU tell me Obama won't do it, even though he says he will? Can you also tell me who's going to win the World Series this year?

"In fact, Obama, who says he's against the war, missed his chance to help end it by voting to fund it."

-Ah, the "funding the war" canard. Seems a little bit like the whole gas-tax holiday plan to me - criticize someone for not supporting a strategy with NO shot of working. Please explain how voting not to fund a war already going on will end it when there was zero chance of the President actually bowing to pressure and bringing the troops home, and please explain how the results of that situation would have done anything but hurt our troops, who didn't choose the mission, and are simply doing their jobs.

"...Hope and Change. It could be that the new voters are hoping and changing, but it might just be that they just think he's going to bring welfare back."

-Boy, you don't think much of your fellow citizens, do you? Easier to categorize everyone as lazy, mindless sheep than think that people are actually willing to work for what they want, if they feel they've got an even shot.

"... And don't forget that he changed his mind on Health care - he used to be for single-payer, but he 'evolved' into a private solution that won't be universal."

-I think I've already mentioned that I'm not a fan of ANY of the healthcare reform proposals still on the table from the VIABLE candidates. Nationalized, single-payer care IS the way to go. But it's problematic, for reasons I've already mentioned and more. But at least Clinton's or Obama's is actually a step forward. McCain's will actually be worse than what we have now.

"And btw, I'm too old to be drafted, though I think it might be the way to end all of these wars, as then we'll get serious public resistance."

-Right. Because all that "serious public resistance" to Vietnam in the absence of a President who actually listened to the public made a HUGE difference. Eventually. Only took what...8, 10 years? Since you've got no personal stake in the game, can you at least provide me with a rough estimate of the number of lives you'd be willing to sacrifice while "serious public resistance" solves the problem?

[avenger64]

188. ok, again, ....

"Not if you couple it with eliminating the Bush tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans, pushing the capital gains rate back up to where it was in the 90's, and start getting serious about closing corporate tax loopholes."

-Do you have the actual numbers on the impacts of these moves? I agree we should push the top marginal rate back to where President Clinton had it. However, credit is drying up at all levels, and this is not the time to be coming down on companies, for the short-term sake of the economy - even if some of them are run by the scum of the Earth. We shouldn't touch the corporate rates yet. On capital gains, I don't know if you saw the last Obama-Clinton debate in Pennsylvania, but Obama's response on this issue was naive enough to be laughable. He said that a hike in the capital gains rate was 'a matter of fairness', as though he were advocating punitive taxation. He then mumbled something about it being dependent on 'how business was going on Wall Street'. He gives me the impression that he doesn't know shit from shinola about economic issues - he might need the flash cards like Bush eventually.

"Evidence, please? - and please don't tell me about his donor list - if a guy working in HR for Shell makes a $25 donation to a campaign, that's not even REMOTELY the same as taking lobbyist or PAC money - and I think you're smart enough to know that."

-There was a link right there in the original post, but ok, here's another. And it was a hell of a lot more than 25 bucks. I hope you're smart enough to click on links.

"Ah, the "funding the war" canard. Seems a little bit like the whole gas-tax holiday plan to me - criticize someone for not supporting a strategy with NO shot of working."

-Interesting strategy - just casually call it a 'canard' like it was officially refuted like a bad math theorem. So, the strategy has no shot of working, but then you actually vote to continue the war? He was hedging his bets politically, and that's disgraceful on an issue like this.

"Right. Because all that "serious public resistance" to Vietnam in the absence of a President who actually listened to the public made a HUGE difference. "

-I can't tell if you're being sarcastic here or not - but to quote John McCain, "It was American public opinion that forced us to lose that conflict."
You can watch the clip here if you like.

"Only took what...8, 10 years? Since you've got no personal stake in the game, can you at least provide me with a rough estimate of the number of lives you'd be willing to sacrifice while "serious public resistance" solves the problem?"

-Well, we're 5 years in already, for starters. And I've got a feeling if you tell these young slackers they're going to have to put down the Xstation 420 (or whatever the hell they call it), and get ready for service, you're going to see massive protests. Pronto.

"Boy, you don't think much of your fellow citizens, do you? Easier to categorize everyone as lazy, mindless sheep than think that people are actually willing to work for what they want, if they feel they've got an even shot."

-Voting really isn't that much work, if you think about it. Unless you really are lazy as hell.

[Usrename]

192. Holy crap!

-I can't tell if you're being sarcastic here or not - but to quote John McCain, "It was American public opinion that forced us to lose that conflict."
You can watch the clip here if you like.

Vietnam was all about the napalm. The very second that we used napalm on those people we lost that conflict, which was just another mindless fiasco anyhow. The Domino Theory was as screwed up an idea as the PNAC bullshit.

There are those that beleive that we lost Vietnam because we didn't use enough napalm. McCain is one of those idiots. I am not sarcastic at all when I say that you ought think things through a little better if you find yourself agreeing with John McCain about anything, especially anything at all to do with Vietnam or war in general. He is about as wrong as a person can get.

[avenger64]

201. I wasn't talking to you ...

... go back and look at the other threads.

[Usrename]

203. Sure you were. Go back and read this subthread.

:crazy:

[Usrename]

193. Do you know how to click on links?

Now I am being sarcastic, and deservedly so! This is what it says in your own friggin link!!!

However, many of those contributions appear to come from workers at the firm not just executives. For example, Patrice McGowan, an Exxon-Mobil shift supervisor, who lives in Joliet, Ill., has donated $982 to Obama as of January. She also has a blog profile on Obama’s campaign Web site.

“I am a single woman who has worked shift work all my life, sometimes never seeing another woman on the job for weeks,” her profile reads, in part.

In a statement today, Obama spokesman Bill Burton, reiterated that Obama doesn't take PAC money or money from federal registered lobbyists, and "that includes oil companies and oil lobbyists."

You gotta be kidding me. You really didn't notice this in your own link? I just don't know what to say to you. He doesn't take PAC money or lobbyist money. How more clearly can someone say it?

"I don't take PAC money,” he said this evening. “I don't take money from federal registered lobbyists. I don't want those strings attached.”

It doesn't get any clearer than this!

[jonestonesusa]

206. Thanks for the responses - they were interesting to read...

I would actually like to see Obama (and Clinton, for that matter) speak more about fiscal issues, to couple deficit reduction with an increase and/or redistribution of social spending over time. I think it would really help with independents and would be sound policy. One of the things I do like about Bill Clinton was that he succeeded in addressing the fiscal side first, even though he was pressured at first into doing so due to the poor state of government finances after Bush I.

Does that sound like a familiar story?

[avenger64]

208. yes.

"One of the things I do like about Bill Clinton was that he succeeded in addressing the fiscal side first, even though he was pressured at first into doing so due to the poor state of government finances after Bush I."

Bush II exacerbated the debt situation so badly that we're starting to look like a Banana Republic - possibly completing the picture with some type of Argentina-style hyperinflation in the next year, or way too soon.

[rambler_american]

112. Damn Straight!

....anyone who doesn't make a serious effort to defeat John McCain is guilty of supporting the Bush Doctrine.

I'm in a pissy mood right now because I just got off the phone with my sister-in-law who hates Obama because he's black and a Muslim to boot. Thanks Fox effing News. Fox has done as much to destroy a once proud nation as the * Administration, and they can't be voted out of office in November.

[Citizen_Penn]

160. some comments were made to

IGNORE

[pipi_k]

97. Oh good grief, you know what's really annoying?

People who state with such conviction that something they have no control over WILL or WON'T happen.


OK, I can handle the bad news


Barack Obama can't win against John McCain, just like the Giants could never win a Superbowl against anyone....


errrr

never mind

[sharp_stick]

127. Ahh a Nader Asshole appears

So nice to see one crawl out every now and then. Such a breath of fresh air compared to the current bunch of anti-dem candidates moving around.

You and Nader can FOAD and I can't say that often enough. Fuck ya both!

[comrade snarky]

143. They are like

Some kind of weird flower that blooms into assholerey ever four years then disappears back underground, not to be seen again until the next cycle.

My disgust for them has only grown with their refusal, candidate and supporters alike, to take responsibility for what they helped bring about.

I swear if anyone tells me "there's no difference between Bush and Gore" ever again I will not be responsible for my actions. Not a court in the land would convict me. :evilgrin:

[iamthebandfanman]

157. wanting and achieving are different things

id like to see nader actually achieve it too. i doubt he would be able either.


i just wish people like nader would drop their ego and come help us(liberal minded people) take back the democratic party.

already this election weve seen candidates try to seperate themselves from the liberal base... which is sad given we were the only reason the party stayed alive the last 7 years. god knows nobody in the DLC was doing anything for us or the party.

[Danger Mouse]

179. Nader won't do shit because he won't ever be elected.

Support Nader. It's your right.
And it's my right to tell you how insufferably idiotic you are for supporting that raging asshole.

[avenger64]

205. Neither will Obama.

That's kind of the point. Clinton got a raw deal, and I'm not playing along.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

79. Goddamn right!

K&R!

[Doityourself]

80. KICK!!!!!!!

[SlingBlade]

82. K & R

Go Obama

[Surya Gayatri]

83. Huge K and R !!! (eom)

[Maineman]

84. Good point, but the vulgarity is not necessary.

[Sundoggy]

115. I disagree

I don't use profanity, but in some cases it gets the point across. I think this is one of those times.

[walldude]

154. If you had seen the threads that inspired this..

you may understand a bit more. Sometimes you just need to go all out to get your point across..

[rambler_american]

86. Error!

Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.

What could be more important than getting the crooks out of the White House and not letting another one in?

:kick:

[trickydix2000]

87. well said

I would like to add that, people need to growup, i read a post where thisguy made his choice to not vote for OBAMA because his name was too easy to make jokes with. This is insane some people should not be allowed to vote, clueless sheep

[OwnedByFerrets]

88. Absolutely RIGHT!!!!!!

Great post and straight to the heart of the matter. Wake up folks. America is on the brink of destruction and we must get it back on track.

[graywarrior]

90. What you said. . .

and thank you for saying it.

[Kajsa]

93. Hell Yes!

Thanks so much much, walldude.

"She has diabetes and heart disease and we can't get health insurance for her because of her pre-existing conditions."

--this should be against the law, because it IS a crime!

and I don't think that's just MHO.

I think it's common sense.- A person needs help/life saving treatment-
THAT'S IT!- end of story- they get help.

I hope your nephew comes home soon.
I hope they all come home soon.

Thanks so much for cutting through the fog and stating what really matters,

--Getting a Democrat in the White House next year!---

Rant on, my friend, rant on!
It's the best I've heard in a long time.

:hug:

[JNelson6563]

94. This foot soldier in the trenches THANKS YOU!

:patriot: :toast: :hug:

Julie

[Highway61]

95. Never in a million years

would I ever think I would see division here on DU....not like this anyway. A non-vote or a vote for McSame puts you in the same category as Bush/Cheney and their band of criminals....how BAD does it have to get for folks to realize it is more than just about "ME"? Damn

[Lugnut]

99. A-fricken-men!

We need to unite for ourselves! Excellent rant!

[Deep13]

100. This is pretty much what I have been hearing since January.

Obama to Dem. dissenters: we don't want you in this party.

[ExPatLeftist]

109. When did Obama say this???? Link!!! n/t

[Deep13]

122. Politicians use surrogates to keep their own hands clean.

I'm not willing to entertain the fiction that somehow all these fans who are saying, writing and doing the same thing at the same time are not operating at Obama's direction. And even if they are, the effect is the same.

[ExPatLeftist]

132. Ah, the old "puppetmaster" conspiracy theory. Again - LINK!

Do you have anything to back any of this up in the least or did you just think it and then assume that it was true?

Also, you claimed that OBAMA said that, not some of his surrogates (which you now claim to be at work, despite a total lack of evidence). So not only are you stretching the truth, you just flat-out lied and then tried to backpedal when caught in it. Respect.

[Deep13]

145. Read it again.

Obama to dissenting Dems.... I did not claim that he spoke this in public.

You sell your own candidate short with your fanatical remarks. First, not everything is on the internet, so your insistence on a link to a concise explanation is misplaced. The idea that a politician will use someone else for his smear campaign is historically demonstrated. Obviously such direction is not in public and, therefore, not amenable to citation. Candidates have previously done this through anonymous mailings, anonymous phone banking, with well-know surrogates and pretended experts in broadcast media, with psuedo-historical books and most recently with e-mail chains like the "Obama-is-a-Muslim" one. I know for a fact that candidates employ web-site members to act as anonymous surrogates to correct "errors."

Frankly, Obama would have to be an idiot not to use these resources, especially with his broad ground-level appeal. So when I see the most aggressive O supporters saying the same thing the internet and other media saying the same thing at the same time, it is a pretty good bet it is coming from the same source. It is like every student turning in the same exact term paper.

If you want specific examples, do your own fucking research. I'm sick of explaining the obvious.

[ExPatLeftist]

197. I thought not. n/t

[walldude]

150. If that's what you took from my post than I believe it's you with

the problem, not Obama. I made it very clear that I would vote for whoever got the nomination. Yet you find a way to trash Obama using what I said. Yeah if you don't vote for the Democrat, then you don't belong in the Democratic party. Period.

[acetylyne]

101. Damn straight!

I partially understand the 'anyone but Clinton' and 'anyone but Obama' crowd because they are very dedicated to their candidates, but for fucks sake just look at what McCain! You can't consider yourself progressive and also consider voting that backwards crackpot.

[ExPatLeftist]

102. Anyone not voting for any candidate because of their "supporters"...

is either being disingenuous or is a first class idiot. There, I said it.

It simply makes NO SENSE to take the words and actions of a few INDIVIDUALS and attempt to apply them to any group. You may as well find any other trait that is similar and judge based on that - everyone that wears Levi's is an asshole ("a guy in Levi's told me to fuck off yesterday!"), everyone in the Army is a jerk ("a bunch of guys in Army uniforms were rude to me!"), or even the same color skin.

I thought that the Democratic was moving AWAY from stereotypes, not searching for new ones.

Anyone that bases any portion of their vote on the words of a few supporters rather than the merits of the ACTUAL CANDIDATE needs to take a class in logic immediately.


There are assholes everywhere. Some support the same candidate as I do. Some wear the same types of shoes as I do. I am responsible for neither (nor are the candidates themselves), and to suggest otherwise is ludicrous. "No way am I voting for Steve because Mary is voting for Steve and she is a total bitch!" Face it, this attitude would have been lame and immature even in high school. Anyone that thinks like this needs to grow up. And the rest of us (no matter who we support) need to stop validating this fundamentally flawed thinking.

[Javaman]

103. BEST. RANT. EVER!

You have stated, what I have been trying to say on here for a while, far more bluntly, yet in a straight up elegant sort of way, than I could have ever hoped to do!!

Thanks!!

Peace.

[Sundoggy]

104. from an inveterate "nice guy"

I try REALLY hard to conduct logical, reasonable discussions with people online, as tilting-at-windmills a goal as that might be. I reasoned with a Hillary supporter yesterday that said he or she didn't know who was more evil, McCain or Obama. Outrageous as that was I still tried to give a reasoned answer.

But I must admit, maybe it's time for your approach. This is getting ridiculous. As I said yesterday, if a person can even CONSIDER voting for McCain, I don't believe they should hang out with Democrats who have the traditional values of the Democratic Party in mind.

[SunDrop23]

105. K&R, well said!

[dlfuller]

106. K&R

[drm604]

108. HELL YES!

Thank you for posting this. I am aghast at all of the all-or-nothing voters on here.

I personally know a woman, a good liberal (at least till now), who tells me that she'd vote for McCain before she'd vote for Obama. Maybe I'll email her a link to your thread.

[NickMorgan]

110. Brilliant post - very well written nt

[hisownpetard]

113. Well, if that doesn't get the point across, I don't know what will. K&R!

[ampad]

114. This is what I am talking about

It must be nice to have the luxury of worrying about faceless people hurting your feelings on message boards. I wonder how many of these people who threaten to vote for McCain because so and so on DU hurt their feelings have to worry about important issues like normal fucking people? There are real people out there with real issues who don't give a good damn about your feelings being hurt on the internets and guess what? why the fuck should they. All this " be nice to me or else" I say take that and stick it because if you are in need of validation that bad then you need to get the hell off of DU and go talk to a professional, seriously.

[Sundoggy]

117. Very well said

Call them Vanity Voters. People who don't really have a stake in this but view it as some kind of football game where you get to choose what team you support.

We don't get to choose. Anyone who thinks there's a choice apparently has no stake in this.

[Juan_de_la_Dem]

116. Just got fired up for the day....K & R

[shomino]

118. Brutal yet honest. K&R. -n/t

[OwnedByFerrets]

119. Ive already Applauded this post once, but

I must do it again. This has got to be the most poignant, most on point post I've ever read here on DU. If anyone is too stupid to get this message, FUCK YOU!!! We must have a democrat in the WH next January.

[Kjaereste]

120. Right on!

And I'll be praying for your wife. The way the medical system in this country is being run is a crime, and I should know -- I'm an RN and see people suffering for want of regular care all the time. We have billions for Iraq but can't keep our infrastructure from failing. We can pay for Darth Cheney's medical bills but can't help a single mom take a sick child to the doctor. We've let the neo-cons steal elections and take us down the wrong road for far too long. They've prospered as we've suffered, and they don't give a damn.

I'll be supporting the Democratic nominee.

Kate

[Fedja]

124. Very well put

I'd add to another point to your op if I may. The sory state of the quality of life in the US currently also demands that you all be tough(er) on the Democrats. No halfassed squirming, no issue dodging, no impeachment avoiding, no $30 tax holidays, no weak crap like that. This is no time to be nice.

Sorry to hear about your wife btw, I just told my fiance about the pre-existing condition logic and she couldn't wrap her head around it. "Sooo... if you can't get insured when you're sick.... errrr.... well.... why do they exist?" I've been to the doctor last week with a nasty cold, and being an idiot, I forgot my ID and any other papers. The doctor didn't even need to see em, she asked me if I have chronic illnesses and that was all the information I had to give to get proper treatment. And it wasn't even an emergency.

Your whole healthcare system needs a hefty kick in the balls, from the ground up. That's no way to live.

[Goodnevil]

129. K&R

This thread is what it's all about for Americans. We need to stick to the basics...

[DWilliamsamh]

131. Amen brother. K & R (n/t)

[Bluenorthwest]

134. I'm with you

Vote for the Democratic nominee, period.

[ckimmy57]

135. THANK YOU VERY FREAKIN MUCH

I have had those exact thoughts but you just put them into words much better then I could have. I agree with you 150%. I don't give a rats ass which democrat candidate wins they will get my vote. This country is such a fucking mess I don't know why anybody would want to be president.

[The Traveler]

136. Common sense. How refreshing

to hear common sense so clearly expressed on this site. Kicked and frackin' recommended. Your wife, your nephew are in my thoughts ... we gotta win it this year, for them, for so many others, for all of us.

[comrade snarky]

139. There's nothing I can add to what you said except

K and R!

This is what any voter who gets in a snit and decides their pride is more important than the country. If McCain wins god help anyone who tells me they skipped the election because the "don't like" the primary winner. I will not be polite. :mad:

If you don't vote Democrat don't bitch to me about a god damn thing!

[Froward69]

140. This needed to be said

THANK YOU.

[nomaco-10]

142. This is one of my favorite posts, the other being......

"GET OUT OF THE WAY" by frenchie cat.

Tell it!

[Hope4BlueUSA]

146. Walldude....

just wanted to let you know that I've been lurking at this site for awhile now, never commenting, but I had to join DU and comment on this OP. You absolutely nailed it. Anyone who says that they'll either sit out this election or vote for McCain for whatever reason is not a Democrat/Progressive/Liberal and should immediately stop claiming that they are. I would never put the welfare of millions of people at risk because of some comment that someone made in a forum somewhere. Anyone that would is just being selfish and that's not what being a Liberal is about. Best wishes to you and your family.

[Riddler]

147. The cold, hard truth, well stated with no punches pulled.

Basically, the worst democrat running for any office is miles better than the best repuke running for the same office. I'd just as soon vote for an illegal alien muslim with a confederate flag around his head and a "Jesus is a Fraud" button on his chest than vote for any republican. Some people on these boards are sniping and whining like the freepers do at their site, and it's sickening. Get a life people. Put your own personal feelings on the back-burner and let's do whatever we can to make sure the democratic candidate, whoever it is, is elected. If you have to hold your nose to do it, then by god do it. But either not voting or voting for Nader because you have a problem with the democratic candidate is a vote for McCain, and ultimately, 4 more years of the same bullshit that got us where we are today.

[knixphan]

149. seconded.

[walldude]

152. Yikes! When DU crashed last night this had dropped off with

30 recs, now I come back and I'm on page 1. Thanks everyone!!

[Poppa]

153. Walldude

Right On !!!!

[0007]

155. bttft and recommend with many kudos for a great post.

I hope your wife gets well.

[iamthebandfanman]

156. i agree, we should all vote D this election

but i swear if the party insiders let hillary be the nominee...

then they should plan on suffering after this election(the party).

i wont leave the party, because hey...its the only way i get to vote where i live(everyone who runs is a democrat pretty much)....but i can sure not pay to get cheated.

[pollo poco]

163. K & R

So sorry for your wife. Things are bad for us, too.
Hope you guys make it through. Not so sure about myself.

[Perry Mason]

164. Legitimate post, too bad...

Too bad neither Obama or Clinton support national healthcare. It would be really useful to someone in your position.

[walldude]

174. Yeah well I have a better shot with either of them

than I do with McCain.

[pollo poco]

185. Agreed-Better than McCain

Still, it is disturbing that the presumptive nominee has no real healthcare plan.
Some of us are getting pretty desperate, waiting for Hope and Change.
I could use an extension on my unemployment benefits too.
And help with my mortgage...oh, wait that's only for subprime victims. Guess I'll just quietly lose my home.

This time last year, we were middle class. Oh, I forgot- what "we"? We're Gay. Really missing all those thousands in taxes we could have put in the bank over the past 15 years if we could have gotten married.

I will never vote for a repug, but the democrats don't give a shit about my problems, either.

I know I'm not the only one who feels that way. The only candidate who cared about my issues couldn't get a word in edgewise.

[PoliticalAmazon]

165. Overreacting at a time of transition isn't the best tactic....

...I understand you are under pressure. We all are. But attacking other Democrats with "fuck you" is the wrong approach. And who the hell do you think you are to say such a thing because someone DARES to have a different opinion than you about the best use of their vote?

We need to respect all Democrats' opinions at this transition time because some of the posters here have had some pretty big political disappointments. It may take some time for them to gain the bigger-picture perspective.

But, even if they don't gain the type of perspectie that makes them agree with your magical and oh-so-omnipotent opinion on who to vote for, they are still Democrats and they still have the right, the responsiility, and the honor to vote for the person THEY--not you--believe will make the best candidate.

You know, the board was just starting to settle down again, some Hillary supporters were not doing so much lashing out, and you post this bullshit?

If you want to make GODDDAMNED sure that no Hillary supporter votes for Obama, then keep up your know-it-all FUCK YOU screeds.

[walldude]

172. The whole reason this post exists is because the board is not

settling down. There were many posts and threads from Hillary supporters yesterday claiming they would rather vote for McCain than Obama. This is DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND, not the underground for Hillary or the underground for Obama. If by some miracle Hillary pulls this out I will vote for her.
It's funny, I included both Hillary and Obama's names in my post yet only Hillary supporters have had a problem with it. The "overreaction" you see is in response to posts like these:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5890394

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5888625

I didn't start this, I have been civil for months. I'm just sick of you whining babies who seem to think that being attacked on a political message board is an excuse to not vote for the Democratic Nominee...

[JuniperLea]

183. Dude... if you are tired of the cheerleaders...

I think it's time to start a bunch of discussions about McCain... the REAL enemy! I don't know what "Ignored" said to you, but your response makes me think it's vomit worthy... jeez. I can't wait for all the dumbasses who think voting for a Republican is better than voting for a Democrat... regardless of the Democrat. This isn't Freeperville, fcol!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5902706&mesg_id=5902706

[PoliticalAmazon]

191. You're MISSING THE FREAKING POINT HERE....

I think many Hillary supporters are reacting very strongy to their recent disappointments. Lord knows, if Obama had done as poorly as Hillary has done over the past few months, I would be a bitch on wheels.

My recommendation: QUIT STEWING ABOUT THEIR ANGRY REACTIONS. It is normal, especially since Hillary keeps them constantly agitated and feeling like thy are being persecuted.

Do you remember Dean's 2004 campaign, after he withdrew? The Dean supporters were PISSED. Many said they would not vote for Kerry, that they would leave the party, etc.

But the majority of Dean supporters, obviously, based on the Dem turnout in November 2004, after they got some distance on it, saw things in a broader perspective and voted Democrat anyway.

Obama is far more capable of winning over Hillary supporters than Kerry was at winning over Dean supporters.

So, give it a freaking rest, let them vent and say they're going to vote for McCain. Support their right as an American to vote for whoever they damned well please. Give constructie reasons why they might want to consider voting for Obama. Quit trying to force them to endorse Obama or leave DU.

That's my recommendation. I've only been involved in Democratic politics since I was 6 weeks old, and made my living for years doing research for political candidates (specialty: religious right).

[walldude]

195. Well this thread got over 200 recs... Apparently I'm not alone

I support an Americans right to vote for whoever the hell they wish. BUT THIS IS NOT AMERICA! It's the DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND. And I have every right to express my opinion just as much as you have to express yours. There are also rules here against supporting Republicans or third party candidates. So I won't give it a rest. Supporting McCain on DU is against the freakin rules you agreed to when you joined this forum. Seems to me it's you who's "missing the point".

If you want to see this thread drop, then stop kicking it.

[PoliticalAmazon]

196. Oh, spare me the lecture about the rules!....

There are rules about insultig other posters, and there are rules about insulting candidates. There are LOTS of rules that are ignored, and thank gawd for that because, if we followed all the rules, no one would be able to post without being TSed. The Dalai Lama would be hard pressed to post without breaking one of their rules.

I'm not particularly intersted in seeing this thread drop because if many posters are responding, it is a subject that needs to be discussed. See, that's how supporting your fellow Democrats' right to discuss something works.

Do you REALLY think these Dems are going to vote for McCain? I don't. I think they're disappointed and pissed off, largely because Hillary failed them, but instead of blasting Hillary they project it at Obama and us, Obama supporters, who are oh-so-hadily available here at DU.

I don't care. I was a bitch on wheels when Dean was driven from the primary in 2004, as were many Dean supporters. Most of us vowed we would NEVER vote for the DNC hand-picked mush-mouthed conservative-appeasing Kerry, but obviously many of us did. Once we got over our huge disappointment and had some time to get a larger perspective of what was at stake, most of us came around.

But if we would have regularly encountered Kerry supporters who said we MUST vote for Kerry or else we were traitors, Repbulicans, stupid, against equal rights for women and small animals (or whatever), and received threats of expulsion from POSTERS on a board system because we wouldn't meekly bend and spread 'em for the DNC-annointed Kerry, it is likely that many of us would have become so rigid in our determination not to vote for Kerry that we wouldn't hae.

So you can focus on the RULES if that makes you happy, while ignoring the big picture: we need this HIllary supporters to vote for Obama if we want to win in November.

Perhaps you, like the Hillary supporters, will be able to take a breath, look at the big picture, and choose an option that units the party, not further divides it.

[walldude]

198. Well we agree on one thing. Uniting the party.

But please quit telling me I'm the one doing the "insulting". As I said I have been nothing but civil for a long time now. This thread was in response to many posts directed at any cult member, lunatic, traitor, sexist, misogynst, asshole who doesn't support Hillary. Sorry if my defending my position insults you. Maybe you missed the title of my thread...

And really if you don't like it stop kicking it. I have a new thread where I insult people again. Please kick that one..

[PoliticalAmazon]

199. I think it's important that hot topics are discussed.: BOTH SIDES. n/t

[Danger Mouse]

176. What twilight zone have you been living in? The place has been utter chaos lately.

[PoliticalAmazon]

190. It has been chaos, but I have noted some of the Hillary supporters not lashing out so often...

Obama seems determined to win them over, and I am confident he can. Let's not make his job harder.

[barack the house]

166. A point well made.Obama plans to make his plan available to all regardless of mediacl history at low

cost. Also relieve tax for those who are senior citizne on their social security.

[mcollier]

171. Question... How many people in your family

are seriously considering moving due to harsh economic times?

I have 3...

[Politicub]

170. K&R!

I'm so sorry to hear all that you've been through. One of my biggest fears losing my job and health insurance and getting placed in the pre-existing condition excluded class -- and then not being able to get it again.

And I'm with you. Fuck off to people who whine about voting for McCain if their candidate doesn't prevail. And at this point, I believe our nominee will be Obama, and I'm prepared to enthusiastically throw my support behind him.

I strongly suspect we will be a united party by the time this plays out. The risk is too great not to be.

[uponit7771]

173. Does your state allow you to buy insurance out of state? There are others that cover precons

[Danger Mouse]

175. Agreed, fuck em if they're going to act like babies.

[Jakes Progress]

184. Oh wow, dude. He said fuck.

Heh heh heh. Boy, that oughta get 'em. This is the language and attitude that will change America. Everyone knows that you always get people to consider your point of view when you tell them to go fuck themselves. It is such a strong argument. Don't gonna be nobody say you can't be tough. Fuck the world, just as long as I can do whatever I wanna whenever I wanna. Great attitude.

[walldude]

210. Yeah it certainly didn't work here..

over 200 recs, a day on the front page and still on the first page of GDP 3 days later. Yeah what a moron I am.. :rofl:

[Ken Burch]

186. I'm with you on all of that.

I think most people here will do the right thing in the fall. Hopefull all of them would.

And I wish you some better personal fortune as well.

[Major Hogwash]

187. No fucking shit - Hillary can go fuck herself.

I'm sick of the racist shit that is posted here in the name of "discussion".

There are numerous assholes that continually post baiting threads here every single day.

[stop the bleeding]

202. Error: you can only recommend threads which were started in the past 24 hours

:beer:

[Fox Mulder]

207. Amen.

I caught this thread too late, otherwise I would've recommended it.