Why is Obama doing well in South Dakota and Montana & doing poorly in West Virginia and Kentucky?

[Tony_FLADEM]

All 4 states have small African-American Populations. What do you think the difference is?



Tony

[gristy]

1. Check the demographics of each state - get the numbers

Income, education, white, black, rural, urban, etc. etc. Your answer will be there.

[texshelters]

135. Gristy, could you help us out

You seem to have an answer about demographics, so enlighten us.

I haven't looked yet, but states with higher education levels do better with Obama. Does that include WV and KY?

However, if you are telling me race isn't a factor in Kentuky and West Virginia, I would call you a liar.

Face the facts America, some people don't understand minorities, and they are isolated and fearful. We need to educate people. Certainly some people are beyond help where race is concerned, but not the young.

Peace,
Tex Shelters

[gristy]

146. No, I don't have the demographics - but I'm sure they can be gleaned from the web somewhere

Not clear why you are calling me a liar, though :(. I didn't say much. I certainly did not say race was not a factor.

on edit: But on re-reading my post and thinking about the definition of "demographics", I can see how it looks like I excluded the possbility of racism... had not intended to...

[texshelters]

160. Didn't mean to call you a liar

I just meant to say, "if you think race isn't an issue". My bad!

Tex Shelters

[NJmaverick]

2. because the latter is in the heart of racism country

[MyNameGoesHere]

3. I have met as many racist from New Jersey as i have

from WV. But it is my guess you have never stepped a toe into my home state.

[MadBadger]

5. Than could you offer an explanation?

[theHandpuppet]

22. Do you really want one or is making blanket insults so much easier?

I posted this during the Kerry campaign but it's just as relevant today:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Some simple things first, then some more complex...

Edited on Fri Oct-22-04 02:14 PM by theHandpuppet

First of all, its amazing to me just how quickly how so many of those who would describe themselves as "progressives" turn to angry insults and stereotyping when discussing the Appalachian vote. (Not directing that remark at you, BTW.) We as Dems have to kick this kind of blind bigotry right out of our thinking and our vocabulary (and that includes pics of "toothless hillbillies" which accompany so many posts. We're not going to reach ANYONE with such a display of disrespect).

Secondly, you don't have to share the concerns or the "live the lifestyle" (whatever that means) of people in WV to truly understand and address their concerns. I waited through three debates to hear one or both of the candidates address some particular concern that would resonate particularly with West Virginians. Guess who did? Yes, believe it or not it was GEORGE BUSH, with his stated committment to the development of "clean coal technologies". Doesn't matter whether or not the committment was real -- the fact that he even verbalized it put him front and center in the very living rooms of the people of WV in recognizing their concerns in front of a national audience! I couldn't BELIEVE Kerry let him grab that issue and then failed to follow up.

Further, I would fervently hope that President Kerry -- like Robert Kennedy did long ago -- will take up the banner of the poor and disenfranchised in rural America, so we may begin to heal the wounds in this country. Develop programs that will encourage more physicians to practice in rural America, as well as draw our best teachers. Initiate programs that offer Appalachian kids the opportunity to go to college without having to fight on the front lines to earn a dollar (WV disproportionately supplies the US with military recruits). Stop the flight of young people from Appalachia by creating a NEW industry to supplement the old -- companies that are the forefront of alternative energy technologies -- and let the people of West Virginia and Kentucky share in the jobs that can be created by the development of clean coal technologies. Revitalize the railroad industry in this nation, an industry that once provided many a family in Appalachia with their best hope of a well-paying job with benefits. That's just for starters.

Finally, about the crafty way the Repukes have won the media war with so many of these folks.... we know they're all sound byte, which brings up that old saying, "a picture is worth a thousand words". President Kerry should, as one of his first plans of office, schedule a nice, long train trip through Appalachia for his Secretaries of Education, of HHS, Labor, Commerce, of the Interior and the Vice President himself. We're not talking the Orient Express here, but the same kind of grimy train I often took with my father through the back mountains down to places like Beckley and Bluefield. Each of our esteemed Secretaries will be provided with a lunch of white bread and government surplus cheese, as well as one yellow legal pad and a #2 pencil for taking notes. Then they can take a GOOD, LONG HARD LOOK at what it's truly like to be poor and despised and forgotten in America. They will stop the train at places that have no station and talk to REAL people. Sit at their tables, break bread with them. If President Kerry's "Train of Healing" is scheduled for summer, make sure the train has no AC or, if wintertime, that it has no heat. Let it sit on the tracks for a few days with no way out and nowhere to go. Cut off their cell phones to boot, and let them get a real feel for what it's like to suffocate under the weight of isolation. At every stop each of the esteemed Secretaries shall be required to invite one Appalachian family to spend a week with them, in their own tasteful homes, in Washington DC -- all expenses paid. Let these people tell their own stories in front of an apathetic nation.

For upon their return, President Kerry will require the reports of his Secretaries be submitted to an independent commission to be immediately convened upon completion of the "Healing Train Tour". For his part, the President should agree to implement changes to existing programs and/or creation of new programs that will provide the kind of jobs, education and basic health care that will allow these very proud folks the chance to lift themselves up and take part once again in this society. Make the American dream real for them again -- and make it now.

Anyway, that's all I would have to say to our future President (as well as my fellow Dems) on that subject, for what it's worth. Unlike too many others here in WV, I'm either a hopeless optimist or perhaps hopelessly naive to still believe these words will not fall on deaf ears.

Here are samples of other posts have made to DU (saved in my journal) regarding class warfare on DU and the Appalachian vote.

(Edited to fix links)
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/theHandpuppet/54
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/theHandpuppet/51
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/theHandpuppet/6
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/theHandpuppet/23
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/theHandpuppet/22

[NJmaverick]

41. As another poster pointed out, which state has the former KKK member representing them?

[theHandpuppet]

47. Did you read any of my posts

Or is that the only mantra you have left if your bag?

[NJmaverick]

53. Answer this:

if regional attitudes on race aren’t keeping Obama’s numbers down in Kentucky and West Virginia, what is?

[theHandpuppet]

63. Honestly?

I've gotten the sense that some here in WV don't feel that Obama has any interest in reaching out to folks who might have dirt or grease under the fingernails. And to be frank, the message he's been sending to the folks in Appalachia is, if I don't think I can win your votes, I can't be bothered with you or your hopes and dreams. Appearances can mean a lot. And sometimes when you ignore people, that in itself is a message that speaks louder than words.

There are other reasons that would require a much longer post than I can offer you at the moment, but I have saved many posts on this topic to my journal.

[hokies4ever]

70. He was way down in the polls there

even before the primary was close, before one would expect him to be campaigning there. Try again, this time using logic and not Hil-logic.

[theHandpuppet]

72. You just underscored my point

Obama is giving the appearance that if he can't carry a state, he has no interest in its people. Conversely, if he can't bother to show up, why should they vote for him?

Look, this is not "Hil-logic", as you so put it. This is the same issue I have been posting about for YEARS, before Barack Obama ever became household name. If you check my journal you'll see that I have been posting on this very subject for years now. If you want links, I can provide those, too. And if you don't want to listen, that's your choice.

[dave29]

76. (which states have been important to Hillary)

Answer: not the caucus states. You can throw this one at Obama re: WV (even though he is there today) -- but look in the mirror in regards to Hillary, and try to explain her reasoning as to which states are important...

In reality, West Virginia matters only to Hillary at this point because she can win it. Probably not in the General, however.

-Dave

[theHandpuppet]

80. And of course, you make a good point

If Hillary writes off the voters in any state, why SHOULD they vote for her? That logic can walk both sides of the street and I would freely admit that. It distresses me to see ANY candidate ignore any state or group of people based solely on whether or not they have curried favor with potential votes. Any President must be a leader for ALL of the people, not just some or not just for those who voted for them in a primary.

At the moment, however, we are talking not only about West Virginia but the plethora of bigoted vitriol I've seen aimed at Appalachian people on GDP. To me this is much more than just an issue of THIS primary or ANY particular candidate. There's a nasty undercurrent of class bigotry that has existed on DU for a long time and this happens to be an issue about which I feel passionately.

Several folks here have asked for explanations and rejected them once they were given. I am going to provide links to a few posts from my journal in which I've addressed this issue at length; some of these posts go back to 2004. It is disheartening to find that the situation, from what I can gather by the threads here on GDP, has only gotten worse, more transparent, and distressingly ugly.

A few examples from my journal...

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/theHandpuppet/22
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/theHandpuppet/6
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/theHandpuppet/51
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/theHandpuppet/54
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/theHandpuppet/23

[KittyWampus]

79. you'd have a point if Obama had actually skipped any states BEFORE WVa. He's campaigned

in every single state so far. And the fact Hillary wouldn't get out of the race and thus allow him to concentrate on McCain earlier means Obama is pressed for time.

Oh, and the idea Obama doesn't care about people with grease under the nails is so fucked up. Why you decide to push a Republican line of bullshit about Obama is beyond me. Just because Hillary decided to play that line doesn't make it any less reprehensible.

[theHandpuppet]

90. Interesting....

I see there can be no rational discourse on this subject lest I be accused of being a Republican shill.

[texshelters]

134. Steel workers don't count

Obama only worked with steel workers and other unions in Chicago.

Just like Minnesota, Iowa and Washington don't count to Clinton because Obama won them, steel workers, factory workers, restaurant workers, and other workers don't count because they support Obama.

Obama better rid America or this myth soon, or he will lose the McSame in the fall.

Tex Shelters

[hfojvt]

85. that was a good post upthread and looks to be an interesting journal

this reminds me a little bit of the scoffing at "red" states that was going on when I first joined and swipes at Byrd are uncalled for considering his leadership in the Senate against the Iraq war.

[theHandpuppet]

89. Thanks...

I doubt that many will take the time to read those journal entries but at least I've tried -- and I've been fighting this issue on DU for years now.

:hi:

[juajen]

108. Thank you for trying.

I grew up very poor. It took a lot of trying for me to get an education, and that process is certainly going forward now and I'm in my sixties.

It hurts to be hungry, but the worst hurt is the way other people treat you. I will never get over my poor roots. My family, however, had some very good genes and we are all pretty damn smart; so, eventually, we all pulled out of poverty, but poverty has not pulled out of us, sad to say.

I tear up when people are mean to those that are disadvantaged because I remember how it felt. I know that my family was lucky, but this country is very mean to the poor, and some on DU are horrible. I don't have to mention names as they certainly know who they are.

God blesses those with compassion for those that are weaker than they, and he remembers those who disdain others, certainly not something a democrat should do.

[theHandpuppet]

144. Take care, juajen

You are not alone.

Hopefully those who today have belittled and ridiculed the poor and disadvantaged will never find themselves in a similar situation and the butt of others' jokes.

:hug:

[hokies4ever]

92. Wasn't that Hillary's logic for avoiding all those caucus states?

:rofl:

[theHandpuppet]

97. See post #80

Befor you make yourself look foolish again.

[NJmaverick]

73. You theory is based on the faulty assumption that West Virginians are some how harder workers

than the rest of the Country. The racism angle seems far more plausible and is backed up with plenty of anecdotal evidence.

[theHandpuppet]

77. Don't be ridiculous

The reference to "grease under the fingernails" refers to folks who work with their hands. It's not a matter of who works harder but whose work is respected. That's where the root of class warfare can be found. And that, my friend, is more than an anecdote.

[vi5]

82. Really? Works with their hands?

Do you honestly believe that people in those other states don't work with their hands? Even their plumbers and mechanics and farmers and factory workers do so via computers and pen and paper. I'd really like to see that.

[theHandpuppet]

87. There's this little thing called willful denial

And you're obviously very practiced at it. If you don't want to hear what I have to say, fine by me. I get the feeling no explantion would suit you other than the one you want to hear.

[vi5]

91. No, I'm really curious....

You at first said "hard working", and then when called on that said "grease under the fingernails."

I've not made any disparaging statements about the south or appalachia or anything so please don't tar me with the same brush as ignorant people on here who have.

But I do think it's a legitimate question as to why the very white, mostly rural states mentioned in the north voted for Obama over Clinton but the very white, mostly rural states in the south did/will not. If you say it's that he doesn't understand hard working people then that implies the people in those northern states don't work hard. If you say it's because he doesn't understand grease under the fingernails types who work with their hands, that implies that those other states don't have large populations of people who work with their hands. And I asked if you really believed that.

I think the people who paint an entire state or an entire region with the "racist" brush are idiots who refuse to look at things on anything other than an ill conceived surface level and want to have their heads in the sand as to what is really going on out there..

However, the people who refuse to aknowledge that there are different racial attitudes in these mostly white southern states and that nobody should ever point out that this could have SOMETHING to do with it have their heads just as firmly planted in the sand as the other side.

[hfojvt]

93. you are being disingenuous

although a more accurate way to distinguish would be between working with your brain and working with your body, between jobs that provide higher income and status and those that don't.

[vi5]

96. I am not being disingenuous....

The implication is that people in WV or KY work harder or are more likely to work with their hands or their sweat or whatever. That's just as much of a reverse bigotry as anything else to imply that our mechanics, our sanitation workers, our farmers, our factory and assembly line workers, our coal miners up here in the north don't work hard or sweat or what have you.

And o.k. yeah if you don't want to compare NY or NJ or Mass. or wherever to KY or WV that's fine. I can understand that simply because there are more urban areas to the former than the latter, even though I still think it's off base. But the original question pertained to states like the Dakotas and Montanna and I didn't really see any answer to that question that didn't somehow imply that people in the south work harder.

[dogday]

115. What evidence other than supporters calling others racist?

Where is this anecdotal evidence at, I wonder?

[MadAnne]

94. Like when Gore didn't campaign at all in WV n/t

[wvbygod]

106. Becaue WV prefers a Clinton

Similar to 91% of a group in NC prefers Obama. It has nothing to do with black or white.

[dogday]

116. Didn't Clinton campaign in North Carolina?

:shrug: just sayin???

[Cha]

122. I read bil campaigned in North Carolina

like he was running for Governor of Arkansas..but they just didn't buy the lies.

[dogday]

124. That was not my point... It was said that Obama is not

campaigning in WV because of the racial divide and he knows he can't win it... Clinton knew she could not win NC but chose to campaign, either via proxy by Bill and she also made at least 4 separate appearances herself... Therefore the earlier statement made by that poster is false and I will not be taking that poster's word for anything....

[Cha]

128. So sorry, that poster is

on Ignore for me and I had just read yesterday about all the campaigning bil did outta the back of a pickup truck in all these small towns like he was running for gov of Arkansas.

[Name removed]

129. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[depakid]

141. He's a Demcrat and new to the political scene

Apallacia, if anything is steeped in tradition, corruption and nepotism. Obama wouldn't do much better there is he were white, protestant and Scotts Irish to boot. Has to do with familiarity a LOT more than race.

Also, before you or someone mentions the dems that are elected in each state- remember that voter attitudes and behavior in presidential races differs markedly from state and local elections.

[MyNameGoesHere]

104. Well let me see... Why the fucking hell does a person from WV have to explaing a goddamn

thing about their state? NO YOU EXPLAIN to me why. Frigging ridicules that we have to defend who we goddamn vote for seeing it is our frigging right.

[dogday]

120. You would think choice is our right as well, and we should be

able to make a decision without the word racist rearing it's ugly head....

[virtualobserver]

8. you have to admit, few states have former Klan leaders as their Senator

it makes you wonder a little bit.

It is little comfort to me that racism is alive and well in both NJ and WV

[MadBadger]

12. Exactly

I could never vote for Robert Byrd.

[Jamastiene]

Right!!! And that means EVERY WHITE PERSON in that state MUST be racist.

:sarcasm: :eyes:

[virtualobserver]

25. Obviously not, but when an elected official came to power in that way

you have to wonder about the electorate.

Obviously some time has passed since he was first elected but in in 1945, he wrote a letter to his Senator saying that he would rather die than see the United States “degraded by race mongrels.”

He has changed his perspective dramatically over the years, but he explained his early views by saying essentially that this is what he heard around him as he grew up.

[NJmaverick]

42. Excellent point

[VotesForWomen]

112. Byrd was one of the few dems who *strongly* opposed the Iraq war, and he renounced the KKK a long ti

time ago, but nevermind.

[virtualobserver]

117. my point was about the environment that formed him..........

which formed others in WV.

[Jersey Devil]

11. bullshit

just pure bullshit

[MadBadger]

14. We equally hate everybody in Jersey.

[Jersey Devil]

18. exactly!

LOL, every time there's a poll in NJ the voters say they hate the guts of all the incumbents and right away the Republicans think NJ is in play, they spend a gazillion dollars here and we vote Democratic again. You think we can sucker them again this year?

[MadBadger]

19. Well, a Monmouth poll had Obama up 26 a few weeks back. So I think NJ wont be a problem.

[NJmaverick]

44. Guess you need to get out more, talk to the people

I have heard many people talk about how the black man are turning them into Hillary supporters (which they never thought they would be).

[Jersey Devil]

67. double bullshit

Hillary won in NJ because of the constant media exposure from NYC and her role in fighting for first responders on 9/11.

Unless you live in south jersey, of course, which is, after all, a different state, shared by cows and hooples

[NJmaverick]

95. See I don't wear my political beliefs on my sleeves and rarely confront others if it's in a work

related setting. One thing about conservatives and bigots, they love to spout their views. So I have heard plenty of bullshit and racist talk along the way. It's scary but racism is still alive and well in NJ. While there are some integrated comnumities (like Montclair) often the dyanamic is one of white flight. The north Jersey urban areas are pretty much all minority. As the minorities move out into the suburbs the white population has a disturbing tendency to flee south and west.

As for what she did for first repsonders, she didn't do much more than any other politician looking to cash in on the event.

[NJmaverick]

15. Never claimed NJ wasn't full of racists, it's part of the reason Hillary took the state

[panAmerican]

40. Most people in NJ are cool. *SOUTH* Jersey otoh...

Not that parts of central and north Jersey aren't affected, but they put the "south" in south Jersey.

[PM7nj]

99. ugh...

[Exilednight]

56. I can believe that, but NJ can hide it better with a population of 8 million compared ......

to WV's 1.8 million.

[hokies4ever]

69. If we want your opinion we'll give it to you

:rofl:

[MyNameGoesHere]

103. Anytime you are ready hokie shit. I would be glad to share my

personal info with you. Anytime you are ready.

[hokies4ever]

153. *cringe*

you're not one of those gun-clingers, are you? :rofl: Very childish to threaten someone on an online board you know.

[MyNameGoesHere]

159. Not a threat just want to get to know a hokie piece of shit better.

And no i am not a gun clinger, but hey you had a little issue with a gun clinger in Blacksburg huh? Are you all depraved killers in that area?

[jillan]

138. My husband is from South Dakota - That is the most racist state I have ever been in.

[ButterflyBlood]

156. And did Obama win New Jersey?

nt

[XemaSab]

33. Idaho is KNOWN for racism

:shrug:

[dogday]

132. How so? Please provide examples.....

[XemaSab]

143. Let's see...

Aryan Nations is based there and until recently had a big rally there every year. The National Alliance is strong there. So is the World Church of the Creator.

It's probably not any more racist than a lot of other states, but it has a reputation nevertheless. :shrug:

[Hansel]

152. The Aryan Nation being in a state has less to do with the state's culture

and more to do with the ability to find isolated rural areas to congregate away from the prying eyes of those who condemn them and from law enforcement.

I'm pretty sure that the Aryan Nation is not inherent to the states that it inhabits.

[XemaSab]

154. Don't get me wrong

I like Idaho; it's a beautiful state.

But it's known for racism.

On the other hand, arguing about most racist state is sort of a dumbass argument. :P

[Clark2008]

35. West Virginia is in Boston, now?

Trust me - my husband's from there and lived in the South the past several years. He says Boston's far more racist than anywhere in the South.

[NashVegas]

98. It's Getting Better

At least in the suburbs.

I've had musicians tell me they left Boston in the late '70s/early '80s because no bar would book an interracial band. Think what a step forward it was when Mighty Mighty Bosstones broke.

In the South it's not swept under the rug, it can be dealt with.

[wvbygod]

105. Just because you say this is the heart of racism country does not make it so

I am not about to declare your home state ignorant just because you set that example.

[BluegrassDem]

4. Education levels

KY and WV people are woefully uneducated on the whole.

[graywarrior]

60. Bingo

5th grade level....maybe.

[McCamy Taylor]

121. Poor education is a marker for poverty. You are prejudiced against the poor.

[Kittycat]

6. Progressives vs. Dixiecrats like Zell Miller

[Arugula Latte]

7. OMG!1!! Because real white hard-working 'Murkikins won't vote for a scary black guy...

um, unless they live in a big, cold Northern State, or something ...

:eyes:

[Bill McBlueState]

9. A popular explanation is that WV and KY are more racist than SD and MT

I've seen that claim a few times, anyway. But the evidence is always anecdotal.

If you wanted to try to prove that two states were more racist than two other states, how would you do it with data, instead of anecdotes?

[last1standing]

10. It probably has a lot to do with desperation.

Large parts of Kentucky and West Virginia have been economically destitute for generations. When people have no hope they often look for scapegoats and African Americans have always been an easy target because there are so few in the area. It's very sad to see good people chained to ignorance but they really are. A lack of education and almost no interaction with other types of people leave them without a reason to question what their parents and peers have taught them.

Of course this is a generalization, but I think if you ever go there and spend time with the people of Appalachia you'll agree that they are some of the kindest, most warm hearted people you'll ever meet, but that desperation leaves them without much love for those who are different.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

125. how could they not like him, he's Irish!

[texshelters]

137. Yep

No Irish folk in West Virginia.

Tex Shelters

[Jamastiene]

13. We're all racist in the south. That's the answer you want. Right?

When you ask a stupid question, I'll give you a stupid answer.

[RethugAssKicker]

51. No.. but too many of you are !!

[TNOE]

118. Unfortunately, there's a lot of truth

in that statement. I've seen the "racism" front and center - Kentucky is not 'that' progressed yet. Its a long road to hoe. I admit we have alot of racism, but I don't know about the "uneducated" part - maybe down in the "hollers" of deep Kentucky there's plenty - but being next to Ohio - not so much.

[VotesForWomen]

109. heck, ALL white people who don't vote for Obama are racists. that's what they think.

[Jamastiene]

123. dupe delete

[Jamastiene]

126. Too bad they see me as so retarded. I could actually help them.

But, they don't want that. They just get a kick out of calling me a racist and imbecile. They really love to trash Dems in the south more than they trash Repubs in the south. Think about it: The General Election hasn't started yet. They are trashing Democrats as racists. They are trashing Democrats who have never known what it is like to be in the majority in our state. They are trashing Democrats who, for decades, have fought like hell and had to walk a tight rope just to get elected all for naught.

Gee, I wonder what it's like to have the luxury of living in a blue state and be so out of touch as to not understand what it's really like for Democrats in the red states. Well, I digress. They don't wonder. They don't care. They just call us racists and hate us more than they hate even the Republicans. They seem to like Republicans, because Obama attracts those.

That is going to be a rude awakening for them when the GE comes. We tried to warn them, but they wouldn't listen, because those of us who tried to warn them are are just dumb retarded racist southerners. What do we know?

It might work on us to call us racists, but when they run that by the Republicans this fall, the collective laughter and sheer volume of "damn right"(s) they will get back with be a rude rude awakening. When they look amazed and stunned, I'm going to hold my right arm up against my chest then, crimp my wrist, stick out my top teeth and say "Duuuuuhhh, Don't look at me. I'm just a poor reee-tarded bitter racist. Remember?"

[sandnsea]

16. Something weird east of the Mississippi

I've got no clue.

[Chulanowa]

17. Incumbency

People in Kentucky, West Virginia, and Tennessee tend to vote for whoever is most familiar to them, out of a "better the devil you know..." mentality.

[Tatiana]

20. What's the per capita income and educational level in those states?

I'd bet West Virginia and Kentucky are worse off economically and educationally than South Dakota and Montana. But that's just my opinion. I'd have to do some research.

Interesting question.

[MadBadger]

23. I think WV either has the least college educated people, or least high school graduates.

one or the other.

[harun]

34. If that is true, Clinton will probably win by 30 pts (n/t)

[AllentownJake]

21. Education?

Are Montana and South Dakota higher educated?

[AllentownJake]

24. Has to be Education

http://www.statestats.com/edrank.htm

Montana is 7th and South Dakota is 17th

West Virginia is 37th.

[Bill McBlueState]

27. but this raises the following question:

Why are more highly educated voters more likely to favor Obama?

[msallied]

38. The least-educated voters tend to go for name recognition

[Blue_Roses]

49. bingo!

they haven't bothered to educate themselves on the issues or the person.

Another word could be called lazy

[Romulox]

39. Education = a proxy for CLASS

Upper class voters and lower class voters have different economic interests.

[Blue_Roses]

50. because they aren't so narrow minded

and think outside "the box" for one I would guess...

education is key to everything...

[XemaSab]

59. I analyzed this a little:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5934434#5935669

[XemaSab]

62. Why is he favored in Oregon then?

Oregon is ranked below WV and KY. :shrug:

[Harry Monroe]

74. Education does not explain it at all

I live in Mississippi and we are dead last. Obama won this state handily. Bigotry has a lot more to do with it. This BTW, is coming from a white, college educated Obama supporter here in N. Mississippi. If education explained it, this state would have gone solidly for Hillary.

On edit: This state is bigoted as they come, but African Americans supported Obama in droves. Unfortunately, come the General Election, this state will remain blood red

[ButterflyBlood]

158. Education is only the factor among whites.

Blacks of all stripes support Obama, period. When you look at how well Obama did among whites in Mississippi, this further proves the point.

[XemaSab]

58. Let's look at the education levels of different states here

Clinton's states are ranked as follows:

2 Massachusetts
4 New Jersey
10 Pennsylvania
12 New Hampshire
14 Rhode Island
16 New York
24 Indiana
30 Tennessee
32 Arkansas
34 Ohio
36 Oklahoma
43 New Mexico
47 California
49 Nevada
50 Arizona

The average ranking is 26.9 or only slightly off the median of 25.5, and to be fair, there is a heavy Hispanic presence in the bottom 4 states she won, which drags the numbers down (not because Hispanics are dumb, but because a lot of them don't speak English very well, and you can't expect people to test well in a language they don't understand.) (And since I went to school in California, if anyone wants to check my math... :P )

Obama got these states:

1 Vermont
3 Connecticut
5 Maine
6 Virginia
8 Wisconsin
9 Iowa
11 Nebraska
13 Minnesota
15 Kansas
18 Maryland
19 Wyoming
20 Idaho
21 North Dakota
22 Missouri
23 North Carolina
26 South Carolina
27 Colorado
28 Delaware
33 Washington
35 Illinois
38 Utah
41 Georgia
42 Hawaii
44 Louisiana
45 Alabama
46 Alaska
48 Mississippi

So there's an average of 23.9 for Obama.

States excluded from the rankings were:

7 Montana
17 South Dakota
25 Texas
29 Florida
31 Kentucky
36 West Virginia
39 Michigan
40 Oregon

Date came from:

http://www.morganquitno.com/edrank.htm

[rniel]

26. As a resident of Idaho

I think he won Idaho because he actually was willing to just come here and speak. There were so many people they had to stop the people from getting in in a stadium holding 55,000. Hillary never visited idaho and Obama ended up winning something like 84%.

Obama is actually willing to campaign in odd places like that I don't know if this speaks to the Montana or South Dakota situation. Hillary's plan was to ignore states like that because they thought it was a waste of time.

It was not a waste of time for Obama and I think this has something to do with his success in states like Wyoming as well.

[phillysuse]

28. Education

Poor schools, no investment in their citizens in West Virginia and Kentucky.

Or maybe too much moonshine and too much fetal alcohol syndrome.

[Zynx]

29. The white vote is not a single entity. Not even close. That's why.

[BlooInBloo]

31. True that.

[NatBurner]

36. basically

[Alhena]

30. I've heard some speculate Scotch-Irish v. Northern European anscestry is the key

the latter being more tolerant.

[phillysuse]

45. That's why Jim Webb for VP makes sense

He has written that if the descendants of the Scots Irish and of African slaves ever got together and realized their commonality, there would be dramatic change in this country. Instead the descendants of the Scots Irish, who gave birth to the term redneck, populate Appalachia and fail to see that their economic situation is caused by the descendants of the same WASPs who ruled England but now own the mines that kill them and their land. So instead of rising up against those who truly oppress them, they see their enemy as other people mired in poverty under the heel of the same white Anglican derived power structure.

So, maybe if Obama runs with Jim Webb, they can make the case for ecomonic rejuvenation for both groups.

[XemaSab]

68. I wasn't a big fan of Webb for VP until I learned about his books and writings

I think he might pull a lot onto the ticket. :thumbsup:

[XemaSab]

66. Dammit!

I'm part Scots-Irish, but I'm also part Swedish and German! What to do? :dilemma:

[On the Road]

32. There is a Sharp Divide Between the West and the South

In recent decades, they've both been lumped into the red state category. But Obama is showing the dividing line very clearly.

Westerners are not burdened as much with the racial history and stereotypes of the South. It's less evangelical. There is a greater tradition of rugged individualism, which sometimes can result in more open-mindedness to candidates from a different background. And because the government is such a large landholder in the West, Westerners are more likley to accept the general idea of government involvement in the economy as long as it's enlightened.

Kentucky is geographically farther north, but otherwise is more compatible with Alabama than Ohio. West Virginia repudiated slavery during the Civil War, but they were once a slaveholding state. Those things are true of a lot of states, but the lack of large cosmopolitan areas like Virginia has skew the balance of the voters toward the red end of the spectrum.

At least those are some broad-brush generalizations. I am very interested to see whether Obama (and other Dean-type candidates) can begin to create some more purple states West of the Mississippi. KY and WV I am not as optimistic about.

[BlooInBloo]

37. Yup. Even before Obama, the plan was to move into the west to get electorals.

[tishaLA]

71. I started to write something like this

and thankfully I stopped before I wasted the keystrokes, only to say it less well than you did. If the west has a "racial history," it is a history about where aboriginal Americans and Latinos fit into the American mosaic, whereas states like WV continue to be haunted by the specter of slavery, etc.

It's really ironic, in some ways, that Sen Clinton has such a large lead, because Pres Clinton largely continued Reagan-Bush's anti-unionism, and it has cost the state so much. Obama (it seems to me) is much more strongly union than Sen Clinton is.

[iamthebandfanman]

43. two were slave states?

two werent?

[PM7nj]

101. West Virginia was never a slave state.

They broke off from Virginia during the Civil War to stay in the Union.

[iamthebandfanman]

102. they didnt break off till 1863

and were salve owners until then.

[scheming daemons]

46. Appalachian whites are the most tribalistic and racist segment of America....

...

[theHandpuppet]

48. Not going to put up with this shit any longer

You want to talk about bigotry, it's time you looked in the mirror.

[iamthebandfanman]

52. im one of them

and im not.
im voting for obama.

please take your stereotypes elsewhere would ya ?

i wouldnt debate a majority are racist or bigots in some form, but dont lump us all together would ya?

[theHandpuppet]

65. And not all Hillary voters are "tribalistic and racist", either

Even those in West Virginia -- like ME.

[wvbygod]

107. and your opinion is most bigoted

I'm sure it can be attributed to something but it's not worth the time.

[TwilightGardener]

113. oops delete wrong place

[dogday]

130. The only thing I do know is that they are poor as dirt...

Do you have some reference to back up your statement of them being the most tribalistic and racist segment of America? I will await your reply...

[Jamastiene]

131. Don't hold your breath.

They make those accusations and NEVER back them up.

[Seabiscuit]

54. From reading this board, a stranger might conclude that half the country is racist and the other

half is sexist.

[windbreeze]

57. I do believe

you may have hit that nail, squarely on the head...I firmly believe that is exactly correct..wb

[windbreeze]

55. I think

you'd have to live there to understand. Some things are ingrained...the ancestors of people who didn't want to be a part of some types of things, moved out west a couple centuries ago. (1700-1800's)

I can tell you a story..I am from Pa.NW Pa...I had an uncle, who was a racist, there IS no other word for it...when we'd go visit their home, which wasn't very often...IF he got on a rant about *******, because that IS the name he used, we kids knew it was time to get in the car, because MY father would just get livid in response, and refused to listen to or be a part of his bs..Now the strange thing about all of this is...That there were NONE, NOT ONE, and still isn't to this day,(60 yrs later) ANY Negroes living in our little town or theirs...There never was...SO tell me, where did his hatred come from? It could not have been from personal experience...I still to this day, do NOT understand. Ingrained, it had to be ingrained, there is NO other explanation, why?? I haven't got a clue....

That was why I knew, that Pa., would split pretty evenly...Because there are those who still believe the woman's place is in the home, sexist in other words...and there are just as many who are racist...I called it right...and I haven't lived there since 58..wb

[Jersey Devil]

61. Birkenstock has no distributors in WV or Ky

plus they haven't discovered latte in Appalachia yet.

[Renew Deal]

64. Different states have different needs.

Obama plays well in the mountain west, but not the mountain east. It's weird, but it is what it is.

[wowimthere]

75. The impediment of racism plus narrrow-mindedness in one part of the electorate as opposed the other

[wowimthere]

78. There is a greater impediment of narrow-mindedness in one region vs. another.

[uponit7771]

81. Eduction, WV is has the 2nd lowest high school graduation rate

[Lucky 13]

83. The Appalachia Factor

Appalachia is stuck in the past. There are real-live snake-handling Pentecostals still practicing in that area. There is an overwhelming level of close-mindedness especially in terms of race, homosexuality, etc. I don't know much about Kentucky, but I know the poverty level in West Virginia is really bad. Jobs for the poor and uneducated in West Virginia are mainly in the mining or industrial sectors - not only do they not pay well and offer little chance for advancement, but they are DANGEROUS both in terms of accidents, cancer rates, and toxins. People are still living in shacks with no running water or electricity. People still hunt turtles and squirrels to supplement their diet and, where available, food pantries are being utilized heavily. In addition, the majority of POOR in West Virginia are WHITE.

The west, including South Dakota and Montana, has fundamental differenences in its thinking. There isn't as much religious fanaticism or inherent racism. They are much more of the mindset that the government needs to stay out of everyone's business. They believe that what you do in your own living room is no one's business but yours. The number of people per acre is MUCH lower. Jobs for un-educated poor folk tend to be on farms and ranches or stores and gas stations. I don't know how the poverty levels between the 4 states compare, but I do know that South Dakota contains the nation's "Poorest County". That county is largely comprised of the same Indian Reservation where Wounded Knee is located. So the poorest of the poor in South Dakota aren't white, like in West Virginia. They are Native American.


I won't make any judgments as to what all this information means for our political candidates. Just explaining the differences in populations as I see them.

[uponit7771]

88. Yeap, WV reminds me of life under CONSTANT conservatism

[Leopolds Ghost]

140. Except that they are pro-union or at least used to be.

Even the churches in WV used to be pro-labor and pro-local community.

Dems have refused to cater to churchgoing communities and allowed
violently anti-leftist, Calvinist Baptist/Pentecostal preachers to
infest poor rural areas.

People criticise it when it is the Nation of Islam in the Inner City.

But they don't encourage liberal churches to step up to the plate.

[AtomicKitten]

84. It has more to do with being informed vs. cobwebs in the brain.

[uponit7771]

86. Yeap, WV and Kentucky with lowest Median avg income and some low graduation rates

[Jamastiene]

127. It's the evil poor people, stupid.

[Azathoth]

100. West Virginia is Lynndie England country n/t

[VotesForWomen]

110. maybe the mid-western states are woman-haters. makes as much sense as your racism theory.

[texshelters]

136. Like those sexists in Indiana

that voted for Clinton.

And those Women haters in Washington and Hawaii. What?

Yes, Clinton is losing votes to woman haters, but there is no connection between sexism and geography. There is however a connection between racism and geography, and the North is not immune.

Tex Shelters

[VotesForWomen]

111. 16 years of Clinton hating propaganda and group-think. the population is more isolated out here, hen

hence group-think is more of a factor (for better or worse).

[TwilightGardener]

114. More open-minded, better-educated as a whole. Even though these

big empty rural western states are pretty red, they're surprisingly not backwards.

[Independent-Voter]

119. Because WV and KY have a TON on low-educated, white voters that HRC thrives on

Her base is composed of the dimmest bulbs in the country. This has been proven time and time again thoughout this primary season.

[theboss]

133. Percentage of College graduates

25 percent of South Dakotans have college degrees.
15 percent of West Virginians do.

My guess is that the percentage of South Dakotan democrats with college degrees is even higher.

In West Virginia, the 15 percent is for Dems as well because there are no Republicans in WV.

[Leopolds Ghost]

139. There are a LOT of Native Americans in SD and Montana.

Many of them refuse to vote party ticket because they feel betrayed
by both major parties since local officials in those states rarely
side with Native sovereignty. So they vote for the person. Others
vote straight-ticket Democrat and have ever since Union troops
invaded their land.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

145. but Obama is First American

on his mother's side

[Thrill]

142. Its simple. The smart educated people who see through BS

will vote for Obama. Its the idiots who have allowed George Bush to win two terms are the ones that you have to worry about.

[hulka38]

147. Cue up the banjo music.

[iwearshoesinky]

151. The banjo is a fun instrument.

Originally West African in origin, it was used for performances before the advent of electronically amplified sound equipment because acoustic guitars are often too quiet in certain circumstances.

[hulka38]

155. I always liked the banjo. Thanks for the history lesson.

[Hansel]

148. I have a anthropological theory

I think it has to do with cold weather versus moderate/warm weather states.

In cold weather prairie/farm states in the 1800s families moved in together in order to endure the long harsh winters. They shared quarters, firewood, food, whatever they could to make it through. In these kinds of close quarters, people needed to get along together and therefore learned to be more amiable. Getting along just became part of the culture. (In addition, the people who settled these states come from cold weather climates - Sweden and Norway. Some Germans.)

The culture of "working together" was passed down through generations. Even now in the cold harsh winters people pull together. Complete strangers are there for you when bad weather hits. They help each other shovel our their driveways, shovel out cars from snowbanks, jump-start each other's vehicles, give rides, etc. And, even now, people stuck indoors in the particularly long cold winters have to get along so they don't kill each other.

I think people from South Dakota and Montana can just relate better to Obama. He's more amiable and believes in working together to solve problems. Clinton is more confrontational and independent. Obama's a "we" person, Clinton's an "I" person. Obviously not everyone in cold weather states are the same, but I think as a culture we tend to be more community orientated and the phrase "yes we can" resonates.

It's probably the same with West Virginia. The people in WV probably just culturally identify more with Hillary than Obama for whatever reason. It might not have anything to do with race.

[iwearshoesinky]

149. WV and KY have very large tents

There's a combination of the Democratic primary traditionally being in all sense the general election. This has begun to change as we root out the bad elements in our state parties. However, in the end a large number of people are registered as Democrats, may vote in this primary, but hold no loyalty to the party in the general election. Whereas other states have racist pricks in the fringes of their Republican parties, our Democratic parties sadly retain detestable individuals. Fortunately they are gradually migrating to the Republicans and therefore changing their registrations. Economic disparity and the poor quality of and accessibility to education sows the seeds of bigotry and hate. The powers who wish to keep the common people divided cultivate these weeds.

[L0oniX]

150. It's the hillbilly factor.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0FGfzjf0AHE&feature=related

[ButterflyBlood]

157. Aside from racism, there's two other reasons:

1-The Clintons. Bill was popular in the Appalachian area. He was not popular in the west. The end.
2-The demographics. WV and KY are full of mostly working class white Democrats, the people who don't like Obama. There aren't many Democrats in SD or MT, but the few that exist are more favorable to Obama, much like the few people that are Democrats in Idaho which Obama took in a landslide. South Dakota is a very non-blue collar state, the only blue collar economy there is agro-industrial and the type of jobs that exist everywhere like construction and utilities. Plus the working class is largely Republican, unless they're young.