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Stop bitching, Obama is not moving to the right.

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The Liberal Thinker Donating Member (138 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-08 06:59 PM
Original message
Stop bitching, Obama is not moving to the right.
He's just elaborating his position - and his position is pretty mainstream liberal.

He supports the right to bear arms but wants gun control. That's a pretty mainstream liberal position. In fact that's a pretty mainstream position. You think the majority of the electorate would support getting rid of guns completely? Fuck no. People want guns, but also regulations. Obama's dead right on this issue.

He said he would go to Iraq and 'continue to refine' his policy based on the new information he learns. Of course he's going to continue to refine his approach, we've had a President who steers the ship of state in the same direction regardless of new information he gets. Don't we want a President who listens to information and adjusts his course based on what he's learned? Guess what, folks, you're getting played if you think that 'refine' means 'I'm not pulling out of Iraq'. It means that his method of pulling out is going to change. The goal of withdrawal is not going to change. And you're also getting played if you think that we're going to be able to pull out of Iraq immediately. Sixteen months is what Obama's plan is and always has been.

And then how about those faith-based initiatives? Is the Democratic party suddenly embracing theocratic social services? I've got some news for you, people. Barack Obama is a Christian, and the vast majority of people in the United States are. Churches have the means to provide social services, if they are funded by the government we will be able to get more people fed, clothed, and taken care of! Anyone who disagrees with that is too ideologically driven to recognize that religious communities in many cases are better able to provide social services than a welfare check. All politics is local, people. And so what if they're religiously based? What's worse, religious people giving social services, or people starving? Are we as a progressive movement too hateful towards Christians that we won't let them help out in the effort to bring our nation out of poverty?

Let's talk about FISA next. If I have nothing to hide, why would the government track me? If the government thinks people are terrorists, let them wiretap their phone lines! Let's completely discard the notion that we're moving into a fascist state, because WE ARE NOT. George Bush will be out of office in six months. SIX MONTHS. Dictators don't have term limits. We have immense corruption. We do not have fascism. And that is why I am not worried about FISA. These telecom corporations were told that what they were doing was legal, and that they had to help the government. Is it really right to punish them after the fact here?

About late-term abortions, yeah, I don't think that "mental stress" should be a reason to have a late-term abortion. That's a pretty mainstream view. That's not a right-wing view. That's pretty regular.

I don't agree with Barack Obama on everything, I don't necessarily agree wholeheartedly with telecom immunity but I understand Obama's reasons for doing so. I lean more towards gun control than lack of gun control. What I do understand is this - if Obama's firm stance on moderate-liberal positions is misconstrued as him becoming a centrist, than so be it. We all know what he stands for and what he will do when he's President. This corrupt era in American politics will be over and for once America's gonna get to work and be a good leader in the world, not a destructive force. But the only way this is going to happen is if Obama continues to listen to both the mainstream and the progressives. We need Republicans. We need to listen to them. Some have good ideas. We need independents. They're going to decide this election. If we tear Obama up for throwing a line out to them, we're going to make him look hypocritical. We might even drag him back to the far-left box in which so many good Democratic candidates have found themselves in over the past few elections causing them to lose disastrously.
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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-08 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. If you think the "corrupt era in American politics will be over"
just because we elect Obama, I've got a Bridge to Nowhere to sell you.
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The Liberal Thinker Donating Member (138 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-08 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. I said that this one, the one involving the Bushes.
In January 2009, George Bush will no longer be President of the United States. The point was not that corruption would vanish. The point was that corrupt dictators usually don't just step down, and using to challenge the idea that we are somehow fascist.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-08 04:38 AM
Response to Reply #1
19. If You think that you can fool people by transposing "The" for "This"
then the RW spin machine has a job for you.

If we elect Obama for President, then THIS corrupt era in American politics will be over.

If you're saying that Obama will bring more corruption, then you're pretty dead fucking wrong.
If you're saying that Obama will bring different corruption, then I'm sure you have something important to tell us.
If you're claiming that Obama can't 'end all corruption' in America, then I think you'll hear a resounding "No Shit Brighteyes!" from plenty of us.

Re-writing someone else's words to create an argument is called a 'strawman'. Learn it.

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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-08 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Oh, relax.
Geez....

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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-08 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. LOL... Actually, I am pretty relaxed.
Just don't go doing stuff like that!

I KNOW yer ain't that dumb.

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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-08 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Hey, I just thought I was being witty.
That'll teach me.
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IndianaJones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-08 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
2. "If I have nothing to hide, why would the government track me?". nt.
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nxylas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-08 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. Repeat after me: "It couldn't happen here, it couldn't happen here..."
You are feeling sleepy. Sleeeeepy.
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The Liberal Thinker Donating Member (138 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-08 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. It could.
But it's not.
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nxylas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-08 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #12
21. So we can all breathe a sigh of relief
Because, since the Democrats are going to stay in power forever, it doesn't matter how many constitutional rights we give up :sarcasm:
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sourmilk Donating Member (512 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-08 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
3. Why is this even a concern?
I must admit, I was initially very disappointed regarding his FISA decision, but it was easily gotten over. How far to the right can Obama actually move without losing his Democratic Base?

There's some wiggle room, but not a lot. There's no way in hell that Repiglicons are going to vote for him in droves, so why would he ever pander to THEIR base? It just isn't going to happen.

The media is making a HUGE deal out of this - we should not.
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The Liberal Thinker Donating Member (138 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-08 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. That's exactly my point.
He's not pandering to their base. People are realizing he's not as Kucinichesque as they'd hoped. Well, the American people aren't going to vote for him if he's a "bleeding heart".
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-08 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. He's moved a centimeter to the right
So that his positions aren't taken out of context by a meter and the left has gone fucking nuts. Happens every 4 years.
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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-08 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Actually, it doesn't happen every 4 years. Please tell us how Kerry, even Gore moved right
after getting the nomination.
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The Liberal Thinker Donating Member (138 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-08 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Well tell me how Obama moved right.
What were his positions before and after he won the nomination? Is he now against pulling out of Iraq? Is he now against universal healthcare?
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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-08 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. FISA, NAFTA, anti gun control, pro death penalty, dissing Move-on, Wes Clark,
questioning late term abortions. Faith=based bullshit. Good grief.

FISA is enough to curl the hair of any believer in the Constitution.

Now tell me how Gore or Kerry behaved similarly after getting the nomination.
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The Liberal Thinker Donating Member (138 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-08 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. You didn't do anything except take all the things I mentioned and explained and say,
"No."
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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-08 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Please tell me how many issues Gore and Kerry announced rightward positions after
getting the nomination. Please.
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The Liberal Thinker Donating Member (138 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-08 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. I didn't claim they did. You claimed that Obama is, and I'm curious as to why you think that.
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GodlessBiker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-08 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
9. I fear FISA may prove to be a tipping point, and not in a good way.
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-08 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
14. Nope!
:hi:
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-08 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
17. Yikes- holding my tongue on this one
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-08 01:29 AM
Response to Original message
18. Please tell me you forgot the sarcasm tag
Or, alternatively, that you grew up behind the Iron Curtain and have no idea what real democracy is.

If not, I'll just chalk this up to another grotesque failure of the American educational system.


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styersc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-08 04:54 AM
Response to Original message
20. Your ignorance in regards to FISA is blinding.
Your discussion of Obama's positions was reasonable until your absurd comments on FISA. FISA has nothing to do with your or anyone's priovacy, it has to do with the Consititutional balance of power and the checks on the Executive branch. The president is not an emperor, every one of our branches of government must be checked by atleast one other. Bush's call on FISA (seemingly supported by Obama) takes the president out of the loop of oversight.

And by the by, if you are so cavalier about your willingness to suspend your personal privacy, post your full name, address and phone number. How about that of your family members? Didn't think so.
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