Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Which school of thought do you subscribe to?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 01:48 AM
Original message
Which school of thought do you subscribe to?
I have a couple of thoughts on this pretty big fight we've got going with the Bush administration here right now. Bear with me, this may be difficult for me to explain.

I'm seeing two different schools of thought when it comes to what constitutes being in the "winning" position in an election (polls aside, mind you) here on DU. Put another way, what the conditions must be for Kerry to be able to say "I am winning this election right now."

The first school of thought I'm seeing (and the people who subscribe to it tend to be the people who, it seems to me, are still worried about Kerry getting beat up by these Smearvet fucks, as if the hits he's taking are going to make him lose) pushes the idea that every hit Kerry takes is lost votes. As a meme spreads more and more, a larger percentage of people believe it, which chips away at Kerry's character and thus less people support him/vote for him. This is the classic "peeling away votes" theory.

The second school of thought, which I think I'm just really starting to learn something about, here, in seeing what Kerry is doing, is pretty different. What I'm seeing happening here is the two candidates have found a battleground, and they've both decided to duke it out. Other fights have probably been offered, but they've for the most part been declined by one side or another (again, it's like a game of Texas Hold'Em, an analogy I've used before). Both candidates know what their strengths are, and they want to fight on their "home turf," using these strengths. And when they DO fight, if they are fighting in their strongest area, they want to make the fight as large and extended as possible, so that everyone sees it and understands the stakes each candidate has been willing to place on the fight. They want to make a huge event out of it- especially when they know they're going to win.

Now, in fights of this caliber, both candidates are going to get hit. They've decided that they're finally going to duke it out, and they're not going to be holding back anything except in the tactical sense. That is, you might hold back and let the other guy swing and miss, so you can come around with your overhand right to his jaw while he's off balance. But they're both going to get bloody. That's just how real fights are when the fighters are of even similar skill-level. The difference, though, is that even through all the blood, people watching a fight typically have a nearly unanimous opinion on who won. There's not always something that you can point to as the "winning shot," but something in your gut just tells ya.

And while each candidate/fighter has their die-hard supporters who will be with him win or lose, those people in the middle who don't have an attachment to either candidate are going to go with the winner. Meanwhile, the die-hard supporters will point out the individual hits and cheer on their candidate in an attempt to give the impression that their guy is winning, trying to pull the undecideds over to their side. Further, anyone who points to one or two particular hits as the ones that "won them over" already had their mind made up before the fight even began. But all of these attempts by the partisans do not affect the outcome. The undecideds truly use their own eyes, and form their own opinions about who won the fight- and that is who they go with, no matter what the fight was over.

The Bush administration made a very, very serious mistake in trying to take on Kerry in this arena, the arena of Kerry's war record. I honestly don't even know what they were thinking. But he suckered them right in. He KNEW that there was NO WAY they could beat him on this issue, so he let them come. He played weak and they went in for the kill. Then, suddenly, they realized the trap that they had fallen for. They'd been ambushed.

The Bush administration is fucked, here. This is the third Vietnam War HERO (not just vets- HEROES) they've smeared, or attempted to smear, in four years. They've realized their mistake, but they can't back out and condemn the Smearvet ads without looking like little bitches (sorry NSMA). However, they can't keep hitting him, either- because every time they do, Kerry just comes up with another person who was THERE on the boat WITH HIM at the TIME who tells the EXACT SAME STORY that all of his other Swift Boat buddies are telling! Kerry's just getting to tell his courageous story OVER AND OVER...and OVER. And they continue to show his Rambo footage where he's walking with his M-16 (I believe) and his helmet, looking like a badass soldier. And there now seems to be an endless line of people who are willing to go on TV and praise Kerry as a war hero.

In the run-up to the RNC Convention, no less.

I mean, if this continues, how could Bush POSSIBLY win? This is exactly what Kerry wants, and he didn't even have to act like an asshole to get it.

Kerry's going to win this fight, rather easily, at this point, and it's going to readily apparent to everyone in only a matter of days, probably. I don't think this election's even going to be close anymore. Almost all of the truly undecided voters are going to go to Kerry.
----------------------------------

Well- that was an odd rant on my part. I hope it made sense. I know I didn't make myself very clear in a lot of parts. :)

(Just as a sidenote, I don't think that most elections have dynamics like this- I think it's the nature of an extremely polarized electorate that makes the undecideds spring for the "winner" of the fight- the "vote peeling" theory probably applies in more typical elections)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 01:59 AM
Response to Original message
1. An Excellent Analysis, Mr. Looney
Edited on Tue Aug-24-04 02:00 AM by The Magistrate
Very good indeed, Sir, and damned well written to boot.

You may count me among the second school you speak of. A fighter must be able to take, as well as dish out, punishment: there is no more enjoyable sight than the expression on the face of a man who has landed his best shot and seen it have no effect....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
coloradodem2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 02:04 AM
Response to Original message
2. The thing is, I don't know.
It is all about the power of perception, I agree there. The thing that worries me is that they have taken down two war heroes, what's to stop them from succeeding with a third one? On the other hand, I am beginning to see the ambush that Kerry is laying, but I don't quite see the connection here. I don't quite see Bush starting to squirm over this. I think my main problem is that no victory could be big enough for me. After the last 4 years, I don't think a victory where Bush got no votes outside his particular circle would be enough for me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. I know what you mean.
I don't see how anyone in their right mind could vote for that guy.

As far as the McCain and Cleland smears, they either couldn't or weren't willing to fight back. I think McCain got blindsided, to be honest with you. Bush suckerpunched him and McCain never recovered.

And Cleland dealt with his shit in the run-up to the Iraq war when the Dems were absolutely powerless.

On top of that, Kerry's the third- he gets to refer back to the first two. This is now a bona-fide pattern- which is part of what is keeping Bush from keeping up his attack. He can't really afford to hit Kerry anymore without looking like a total piece of shit with an inferiority complex, and in any case Kerry just takes it as an opportunity to talk himself up more. Again, though, Bush can't back off, either.

Do you see how Bush is just stuck? He can't do anything, now. You know how Kerry is with the IWR vote? Well, that's where Bush is right now, but it's on the news 24/7 and he looks like an asshole who got caught with his pants down.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
A_Possum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 02:20 AM
Response to Original message
4. I'd like to think it's that orchestrated
But I really don't think it is. I think it's more like the "sweep of history"--you can go back after it's all over and say, "So-and-so" planned to do this, and it worked, and the other guy countered with that, and make a story out of it that appears to make sense--but in reality, I have a feeling a lot of it is just happening fast and out of control on both sides.

I don't think Rove is a genius, except that he does repeatedly use "tactics" that create no-win situations for the other side. He's sort of like the kind of person who always has a snide comeback in an argument, and that's his only way of arguing, just getting in the comeback and hoping that makes the other person back down.

Other than that, as far as I can see, his only tactic is to call black, white and up, down. He's actually really really predictable, so you'd think it would be possible to counter him before he moves, but snideness a weapon that's difficult to disarm.

I do think Kerry, of anyone, must have the experience and the cleverness to out-think the other side, but there's a gigantic campaign and all sorts of people who may or may not do what they are expected, told or hoped to do. You couldn't have predicted things like the flyer in the Gainesville office.

I think this is true of the smearvets, too. I think most all of those guys are going to live to really regret having put their names on those affidavits. People do things in the heat of the moment, when they're all sitting around talking and agreeing with one another, and don't realize they've put their lives and honor and in some cases livelihood on the line, that they are going to get pilloried. It's stupid, but people are stupid sometimes.

Equally, some of the vets who've come forward for Kerry are now dragged into the limelight helter-skelter, and who knows what will happen. Will they start getting death threats from freepers, will their lives ever be the same again? I hope they don't sustain any permanent damage, but it must have taken some courage for all of them to come forward in such a vicious environment.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. I'm not so sure he really planned this out, either,
but he sure has handled it well.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
A_Possum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Well that's the beauty of a guy like Kerry
Edited on Tue Aug-24-04 02:32 AM by A_Possum
When things are coming fast and hard, he doesn't lose his cool. He doesn't appear to believe everything the media writes, heh. And god knows he doesn't seem to be reading DU where the sky is always falling at the same time we've WON the whole game! (Although I'm sure some staffer reads it.)

There's a lot of noise out there. It takes a lot of character, calm and experience to cut through it. And mistakes will be made, no matter what. It's a guy who can recover from mistakes and go on that eventually reaches the finish line. And in this case, the finish line is only the start--Kerry gets handed the botch that Bush has made of everything in the known universe.

In many ways, the more I've read about Kerry's experiences in Vietnam and after, the more this whole period of history we're going thru now seems like a Shakespearean drama where we play out the same universal themes that we've played once every 30 years or so--war and genocide and democracy and patriotism and all those questions that haunt our dreams while we're asleep in the "good years." They're suddenly real again, and right here in our faces.

Well, just musing.

Poss, feeling philosophical tonight
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Very well said.
I'm more of a sky-is-falling/we're killing em type, though. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Here, Mr. Looney
Is some indication the other side, at least, planned this for some while, and that it was known they were doing so....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x660872

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blalock Donating Member (19 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 02:34 AM
Response to Original message
8. Kerry and Bush love Vietnam as the issue
neither one loses or gains any votes, while they both get to ignore real issues.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. I like that analysis, too. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
11. I keep going back to this:
Kerry is a closer.

I can't remember who it was that said it, but it's always stuck in my mind. I was pissed at the swift jerks and some of the crap that went on. But I always kept that in mind thinking that this will backfire on Bush and his cronies.

I think it has and people aren't taking them all that seriously anymore except for the truly delusional.

Kerry has proven himself ten times over and will be a great president.

Cyn:)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
12. I still want to know where the anti-war groups fit in
Not much mention of a significant majority of this country; those against the war in Iraq.

In the meantime we are re-writing history to reflect Vietnam as a good thing.

I have my doubts about the efficacy of this.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
quinnox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
13. Well thought out post
I'm still not ready to declare victory yet, but I think Kerry definitely has some tricks up his sleeve.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed May 01st 2024, 07:29 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC