Tell me what the Hell kind of "Moral Forum" doesn't ask the Single most important Moral question of

[patrice]

our day?

"Many ordinary People have died. Did we do the right thing to Iraq?"

What a fucking joke! I'm trying to be tolerant and understanding of conventional Religion, but tonight made that task very much more difficult. I think a great deal LESS of "Christianity" now than I did 2 hours ago!

[madeline_con]

1. You're hating on the game because of the playa.

Don't confuse some of the BS being spewed with real Christianity.

[patrice]

11. I'm working on it. I did indicate "special usage".

I was raised conservative Catholic. I'm fallen now, but still believe in and love my faith.

I know there ARE Real Christians out there, trying to LIVE a whole Faith, in every way, with every person, every second of their lives. I do know these people for real.

I just get so scared that McCain will become pResident that I despair.

[Zhade]

28. NTS fallacy. They're just as christian as anyone else.

They meet the same requirements to be considered christian as a UU does - they're just shitty christians.

[dkf]

2. John McCain doesn't care how many die as long as we "win".

[Erin Elizabeth]

3. Well, this Christian would have applauded such a question.

And I agree, in any moral forum, that should have been one of the top if not THE top question to ask. And it demands an answer.

[gateley]

4. But this audience applauded the surge and our involvement in Iraq!

I don't even think they give a thought to the Iraqi people. :(

[Arnold Judas Rimmer]

5. It's Orange County

The red blight on an otherwise blue California coast. Bob Dornan used to be their congressman. If that's any indicator of their collective sanity, they don't have much.

[Erin Elizabeth]

7. I'm not personally responsible for them

and their religion or whatever. It's a sad and sorry thing to applaud this war, though. Not all Christians do. Many Christians have opposed it from the beginning, including the United Methodist church.

[patrice]

12. Over the years, I have met Methodists who were/are Far ahead of the rest of us.

[yellowdogintexas]

19. we try to be. The African UMC is locked in the the first half of the 20th

century but the North American and European are more progressive indeed.

[Critters2]

24. It's time to call bullshit on this meme.

The American UMC is also homophobic. Let's remember, Kirbyjon Caldwell, complete with his "ex-gay ministry", is a UMC pastor in good standing. In the United States. I get tired of UMC members claiming their church is progressive when there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. The UMC officially states "homosexuality is incompatible with the Christian faith". The WHOLE UMC states this.

And don't even get me started on the way the UMC sent Western missionaries into the former Soviet republics to take advantage of the decades of suffering of the Eastern Church. As the poor Orthodox church was trying to get itself up and running, with the help of a good many American denominations Orthodox and others, two groups were rushing missionaries in to take advantage of the situation: American Evangelicals and the UMC. Even when the Russian government asked Western missionaries to stay out, the UMC defied that request. It had bought into the bullshit that there were no Christians in the Soviet Union, in spite of 1000 years of Russian Orthodoxy. The UMC worked out of a 19th Century missiology--that teaches that Western culture and Christianity are identical, and thus, to be Christian means to be Western.

The UMC is not progressive. For all of its members who say it is, there are dozens of cannon laws, pronouncements, and actions that state otherwise. It's time to name this group of conservative Evangelicals for what it is.

Oh, and a little reminder...both George Bush and Dick Cheney are United Methodist.

[AspenRose]

31. HRC and John Edwards are UMC too.

And there have been calls to kick B*sh and Cheney OUT of the UMC.

[Critters2]

34. Yep. You can be UMC and believe anything. Liberal or fundametalist.

That's why it's such a big church. It's so wed to the culture as to mean nothing. It's the American church, again tying Western culture to Christianity.

Oh, and as for the "kicking Bush and Cheney out" bs...when they were elected, the homepage of the UMC SCREAMED the news of how two UMCs had been elected. And a Methodist school is going to host his "library".

Progressive. Right. :eyes:

[gateley]

21. Did I somehow imply that I felt you were responsible for these people?

If I did, it was totally unintentional - and I apologize.

I thing this is an odd group/demographic. I don't really understand them because although they profess to be good Christians (if not "the best" Christians), they're certainly inflexible, judgmental and unforgiving.

They applauded (rightly so) when Obama quoted "whatever you do unto the least of my brethren" yet applaud about a war that has killed thousands of innocent 'brethren".

It seems as though they're using Jesus to hide behind in order to justify their very un-Christian-like behavior.

[Erin Elizabeth]

22. You hit the nail on the head.

And inflexible, judgmental and unforgiving are antithetical to the teachings of Christ.

[nc4bo]

6. Please don' t measure all Christians with the same yard stick. We are all not the same, honest. nt

[patrice]

13. Please accept my apology.

[nc4bo]

16. It's ok, really - I shake my head at some of bs said and done in the name of Christianity. nt

[napi21]

8. Iraq and those who died were not a topic of the forum tonight.

I can understand and accept that Warren couldn't possibly ask every question everyone would have wanted. I actually think he did a pretty good job.

It was however proven to me again that McNut drives me CRAZY! I forced myself to listen to the whole 2 hours, but the last 40 minutes was a real challenge for me! I didn't feel McNut was actually THINKING about his answers, but just tossing out talking point answers that he's been told the evangelicals would want to hear.

And if I have to hear that damn "my friends" again I'm going to scream! (So far tonight, all I did was swear at the TV!

Barack seemed to really think about each answer, and respond honestly.

[AtomicKitten]

9. Save the fetus. Destroy the planet. My friends.

[Muttocracy]

10. did they ask about the death penalty? I heard parts of each but don't recall that. nt

[patrice]

15. No! At least First-in-Incarceration was mentioned, thank Goodness.

. . . in connection with Education.

Crash didn't comment on that part of the question.

[Muttocracy]

18. so once again pro-life is narrowly defined. nt

[patrice]

20. That's what is so frustrating. This old Seamless Cloak Catholic would LIKE to share

REAL Pro-Life values with others, but with so many, we are not talking about the same thing.

Women don't have abortions because they WANT them. They have them, in part, because we live in an Anti-Life Culture/Society/EconomicSystem. If we lived in a genuinely Pro-Life Culture, one that spent as much money on nurturing Life as it does on Punishment and Killing, there'd be many fewer abortions.

[Bluerthanblue]

14. If you base your judgement of "christianity" on the response of an

audience being televised to a country by the 'media'- then I worry for you.

I wouldn't want anyone to judge me by the view they get of "America" through the media-

If you judge the response of those in that venue, fine- but they only represent themselves- NOT "Christianity" and within that crowd, were hundreds of indiviuals.

There is no 'single most important Moral question" of 'our' day- IMO-

That question would be summed up in the concept of what do we owe to one another- And Obama answered that very well I believe.

:hi:

[StoryTeller]

17. Christianity

Hey Patrice,

I understand your frustration. I really do. And I'm not only a Christian, I'd be considered evangelical as well, because of the church I'm attending and some of my theology. It gets extremely frustrating and sometimes embarrassing to be connected with people that I feel are making a mockery of my faith.

But I think it's important for us all to understand that a lot of what passes for "evangelical Christianity" in America is NOT real Christianity. It's a cultural hybrid of nationalism and really piss-poor Christian theology that is focused on gaining political power in "God's name." And it's not right, and it's not at ALL what Christianity is about.

I'm reading a book right now called "The Myth of a Christian Nation" by Gregory Boyd. It's written by an evangelical pastor, and it's published by a Christian publisher--so you're getting an insider's view. The subtitle sums it up well: How the Quest for Political Power Is Destroying the Church. The blurb on the back also talks about how this quest for political power damages society as well.

I think it would maybe be a distressing but encouraging read for anyone who feels angry or upset about Christianity as it is portrayed in America. It may help you distinguish between what is authentic Christianity and what is this political-cultural impostor.

Another enlightening read is "Thy Kingdom Come: An Evangelical's Lament" by Randall Balmer. The subtitle there is "How the Religious Right Distorts the Faith and Threatens America." The author is an evangelical, and an editor-at-large for Christianity Today.

I just wanted to encourage you that what you are seeing is not so much Christianity the faith as it is a cultural-political religion. And that there are many of us in the Christian community who are quite concerned and upset about it and we are working to try to teach our own members better theology as well as challenge them on their cultural assumptions. It takes time, but there is progress being made.

[patrice]

25. As skeptical as I am of much of what is said about "the Second Coming" and "the Rapture", I must

say that it is very interesting how these crises in Faith and action parallel those myths, not, I think, in the ways that people expect them to unfold, or in the ways that they are conventionally represented, but Real nonetheless.

[StoryTeller]

26. That's quite profound, actually.

The traditional interpretation of those parts of the Bible is that they are not literal, but representative of the ongoing struggles against oppression and injustice and how a person of faith can have hope and should respond in the middle of those difficulties. So your observation would actually line up very well with that take of those verses. :) I think you're right on.

[patrice]

30. Truth is concrete, though not "frozen". It's a concrete event.

A verb. So The Bible IS actually alive and we have to be careful not to make the mistake of "freezing" it into a solid image of our own limited understanding, i.e. blasphemy.

I don't particularly like the word "concrete" here, because it objectifies, but I can't think of a better substitute for: a phenomenological ecology that it is our responsibility to discern and respond to.

Solidarity, Story Teller!

:hi:

[TexasObserver]

23. True. Abortion is killing but killing isn't killing.

That's the religious RIGHT. Killing innocent people in wars is just "shit Happens" when you have to get mean with brown people.

[cliffordu]

27. The morals of the stockholder, the morals of the rich. The morals of the ruling class.

[grantcart]

29. what kind of 'Moral Forum" breaks for advertisers lol

[Supersedeas]

32. maybe spreading Corp-Christianity/TV Evangelism at the point of a gun is a subject to be avoided

[DU GrovelBot]

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[baldguy]

35. Obviously because they ain't people, they're Muslims.

And it was a Christian forum.

:sarcasm: :puke: