Is McCain's POW story for real?

[Usrename]

He was going on about how the prison commandant in his POW called him in to ask for his permission to see if it was OK to send McCain home early, and how he refused to give the commandant his permission.

Do things like that really happen in POW camps?

He seemed awful choked up about it, so I have no idea if it really is true or not.

[Ian David]

1. The guy in charge of his camp says McCain was never tortured.

If it's good enough in Bushworld, his word should be good enough for us.

McCain was never tortured.

[Usrename]

3. Maybe some stress positions..

and some harsh interrogation techniques, but for sure there wasn't any torture because we now know that torture causes organ failure.

:sarcasm:

I wasn't being sarcastic in the OP, though, it really did sound like that was what he was saying.

They asked for his permission to kick him out of their prison, and he refused to go, so they were stuck with him for three more years.

That sounds weird to me, that they would ask him if they could send him home.

WTF?

[Ian David]

4. He was probably safer there than in the cockpit, considering how many times he crashed. n/t

[Bluerthanblue]

6. people don't stop and question the 'spin'- what kind of prison ASKS or OFFERS

prisoners their freedom and 'allows' them to turn it down??


I've been asking this and no one seems to have an answer that 'satisfies' me- (I'm just slow or thick I guess)

Hope you get a good answer.


:hi:

[Usrename]

7. Sure seems like they would have shipped him out if they wanted to.

Why did they ask for his permission?

And WHY did they respect his wishes when he refused?

It makes no sense to me.

I guess McCain was such a powerful leader, even in those days, that they just had to obey him, even though he was their prisoner.

:shrug:

I don't get it.

[madeline_con]

39. never mind...

[patrice]

2. The Christian gun gaurd story was the OPPOSITE of what McCain says we should do to Iraq.

The gun gaurd went against orders to do something Christ-like, but killing Iraqis "for their own good" is still the right thing to do. :crazy:

[Political Tiger]

25. I found that "story" suspicious.

Problem is, there is no way to verify such claims.

[patrice]

54. McCain's point in telling it was about the 2 of them worshipping the cross drawn in the dirt.

Which misses the fact that the gaurd was living the message of Christ by disobeying orders and being kind to the enemy.

All of Obama's answers were about living one's life according to the principle in Mathew 24:40 "Whatsoever you do to the least of these, that you do unto me."

[butterfly77]

75. Someone this morning said..

that it came from a scene in the movie Ben Hur...

[Usrename]

76. Yeah, I know.

It's like McCain is Reagan and Bush rolled into one. Living the dream. Literally.

[patrice]

79. I consider it possible that someone loosed McCain's ropes. It's also possible the rest of the story

was added - especially since there's no way to verify it. Are there any other documented examples of McCain embroidering the truth?

[Whisp]

5. I really really doubt it.

am sure he has embellished it to his advantage.
lieing pigs do that.

I still don't understand what the reasoning was behind him refusing to be released.

but this is a sacred pow topic. even the vilest of humans are believed to be heros in wars because if anything else, the military state must pedestalize service.

[Diamonique]

8. It's some kind of military code..

First in... first out.

There were others there who had been there longer, so McCain said they should be released first.

I think the story is true. And I think it's the only truly honorable thing he has ever done in his entire miserable life.

[Whisp]

11. thanks for the explanation. nt

[Recovered Repug]

12. Close. It's in the Code Of Conduct

If I am captured I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and to aid others to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.

[Usrename]

13. I don't think you understand the question.

How can a prisoner refuse to be shipped out? Did hold his breath till he turned blue?

[Bluerthanblue]

14. If he had taken 'early release' it would have been a court marshal as

some have explained- so where was the 'moral dilemma'?

By McCain's own admission he did give 'propaganda' to them- and he did receive 'special treatment' for his injuries- treatment others didn't get. :shrug:

This doesn't add up-

:hi:

[madeline_con]

32. It's first in , first out. Just how it's done. n

[DefenseLawyer]

9. The was a radio in the coffee pot

No wait, that was Hogan's Heroes. Nevermind.

[lynne]

10. According to the Veterans History Project at the Library of Congress -

- it's true. The link is >> http://lcweb2.loc.gov/diglib/vhp-stories/loc.natlib.afc2001001.07736/

You could probably pull up archived newspaper stories from that time for further research.

[Usrename]

15. So how does that work?

Exactly how does one refuse to be released?

I understand that the story does exist. That isn't the question that is bothering me. I am asking if it's TRUE.

See the difference? Why would his captors ask for his permission? Why would they respect his decision?

Get it now?

How does that work exactly, and why would they do that? It doesn't make any sense at all to me.

What am I missing here?

[rasputin1952]

17. Carrot and stick, if that is what really happened...

they might have "offered" him early release, but only as a propaganda ploy.

[Usrename]

18. If there was some quid pro quo, I want to know what it was.

He says it was the toughest moral decision he ever made.

So what was the decision?

See what I mean?

[rasputin1952]

21. Yeah, and it wasn't the toughest decision he ever made, he

would have been iin violation of a direct order...and it doesn't say much for his chararcter if he decided to drop his first wife and kids...seems to me, that would be pretty tough.

In any case, McCain's experiece, while honorable to an extent, is still far short of being heroic.

[Usrename]

22. How/why did McCain have any choice?

If they sent him home he'd have to go home, wouldn't he? Why would they ask him first if it was OK?

I really don't think you understand the question.

Why does McCain think that he had any choice in the matter?

[DebJ]

63. Yes, cheating on the wife was a much easier decision.

[lynne]

27. Don't worry - I've got it. The story is true, I remember when it occurred.

You refuse an early release by giving it conditions. McCain told them he would not go unless those who were imprisoned longer were released, too.

McCain's father was very high ranking, I believe he had been in charge of all the military in Vietnam at one time. The offer to release the son of a high ranking US officer early was considered a propaganda ploy.

I did a little looking for evidence. A recent AP story about Obama and McCain has the following about McCain's office:

"In one corner, in a simple black frame, hangs a three-page telegram from 1968 that recounts McCain's refusal to accept early release from detention as a Vietnam prisoner of war. The once-classified cable from Averell Harriman, then the chief U.S. negotiator to the Paris Peace Talks, tells about a discussion he had with the top negotiator for the North Vietnamese. It states: "At tea break Le Duc Tho mentioned that DRV had intended to release Admiral McCain's son as one of the three pilots freed recently, but he had refused."
Link: http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jSLEvnw6SU5bs8K2C1VjTdCdphhAD92GCC183

[Usrename]

28. I already said that I know the story EXISTS!

My question is whether or not it is TRUE.

How does a POW have any legal authority to insist on anything about his own release?

How does that work?

Can the POWs that we are holding refuse to be released?

I still don't understand WHY the NVA would give McCain the authority to make this kind of decision.

Why would they do that? Why would the NVA allow a POW to determine his own fate. What am I missing?

I don't understand the rationale here.

I still don't.

[CitizenPatriot]

49. GOOD question

and we will never know wince he and his daddy-in-law's big bucks sealed up his military records, much to the chagrin and distress of many families of POW's.

http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/

http://rawstory.com/news/2007/AntiMcCain_vets_ready_their_salvo_against_0302.html

[rasputin1952]

16. Admiral, (then Captain) Stockade had given explicit orders

that there would be no "early releases". I'm not saying McCain would have taken one anyway, but if he did, he would have faced a Court Martial. That alone probably kept him from getting out "early". Think of the stain it would have put on the son and Grandson of Admirals, It is far easier to refuse something when there is an order to refuse it anyway.

FWIW, this act is often heralded as "heroic", in reality, it is far from it, the man was doing his duty, something I respect, but would not call "heroic". How come no one else held during those years is being called a "hero", with the exception of Admiral Stockade, who was awarded the Medal of Honor for his defiance.

[Usrename]

19. I don't understand what you are getting at.

Or trying to get at.

Are you saying that if we released a Gitmo detainee that they could refuse to be released?

How could they possibley do that?

How does it work?

I guess that McCain would be tresspassing if he refused to leave, and then they'd have to arrest him again. Is that how it works?

[rasputin1952]

20. The point is, if McCain had walked, he'd be in violation

of a direct order.

As for the carrot/stick approach, they probably offered him early release, but they also knew he'd be in serious trouoble if he took said release, not to mention he'd be a taint on the Admirals.

[Usrename]

23. So anybody can just walk into the prison camp?

Even if nobody wants them there?

Anyone at all that wants to live there in the prison camp can just decide to live there and there's nothing the VNA could do about it?

It was impossible to release McCain from prison unless McCain agreed to be released.

That's what you believe?

on edit>

Why would the Vietnamese need McCain's approval if they wanted to release him? Why wouldn't they just release him without his permission?

Do you see what I mean? Why would they ask for his permission at all? Why wouldn't they just do it?

[ZenKitty]

29. I'm going to respond upthread...

strike two birds with one stone.

It appears that there is a misunderstanding...perhaps a lack of knowledge of the war.

You do not know me, nor I you so no matter what I type you will frame your opinion without my input.

Understandable.

Research the nature of the Vietnamese of that era...the Americans as well.

It saddens me that the nature of this conflict is questioned!

[Usrename]

30. I guess you think this in some kind of answer.

What am I supposed to learn from this research that is so important and inscrutable that it escapes description?

I lived in that era. I don't question anything about the conflict. I know about the napalm that McCain used over there.

My question here is very, very specific. Why did the Vietnamese let John McCain decide? Why was he the decider?

Was he some kind of spy or something? Was he working for them? I really don't know. Why do YOU think they let him decide?

I don't get it. And you may think I'm ignorant, but that still doesn't answer my question.

Why was McCain the decider? How exactly do you think that works?

You seem to understand it, so won't you try and explain it to me.

[rasputin1952]

46. There is a purpose, no matter how it's veiled, in everything that

happened to McCain during those years. If McCain had taken up the "offer", besides the probability of a court Martial, it would have been a great propaganda coup for the N. Vietnamese of the time. It would have shown the "humanitarian" side of them, at the same time, it would have been a blow to the US because the son of a high ranking Naval Officer was shown to be given preferential treatment. The NVA knew very well the power of propaganda, and McCain knew very well the implications of an early release. I can be relatively sure that someone in the NV gov't was behind this, they knew of the anti-war sentiment back in the US and they would have used this high profile release as leverage.

As a vet, although never a POW, I can understand where McCain was coming from. For the record, I met a man that had escaped from the NVA, he spent 6 weeks heading South, until he finally reached friendly lines. He was Filipino, had been captured by the Japanese at Corregidor, he had also been captured by the North Koreans during the Korean War. this man knew the horrors of being a POW, tortured, beaten, used as slave labor. He never got away from the Japanese or the North Koreans, but he made it back to S.VN and was immediately held by the local commander until his ID could be verified, essentially 3 days under guard. Once his ID was verified, he was immediately shipped to the US for further treatment, and eventually retired a Sgt Major. He was hailed as a hero, but he escaped, was not offered release, there is a difference.

I respect McCain for "refusing" the early release, that's part of the territory that comes w/being in the military. But the reality is, he had no realistic choice. Anything other than returning to his cell would have been the wrong choice at that time. As ridiculous as this may sound, any "preferential" treatment a prisoner receives, even an extra meal or portion of food, is seen by the others as essentially collusion, and that can be far worse than anything the captors can do. If you lose respect of those you are being held with, you have nothing.

[Usrename]

70. I understand all of that. That almost makes perfect sense. Except for one thing.

How come they didn't just ignore McCain completely and ship him home to his daddy anyhow, especially if they wanted the propaganda coup?

I can't believe you don't understand the question.

Why do you think they listened to McCain, and why do you think they changed their plans and did what McCain wanted, instead of going for the propaganda coup?

I doesn't make any sense.

And as for any court martial, McCain could protest his innocence (in fact he would be innocent, if they released him against his will), but what difference would that make? The enemy could just claim that he changed his mind afterwards. I don't get it at all. Why would they leave this kind of decision up to McCain? Why wouldn't they make their own decisions about how they were going to procede?

What did the enemy gain by allowing McCain to make that choice?

[rasputin1952]

77. Probably nothing...who knows what went through their minds?

We don't hav all of the pieces to make a complete picture. For all I know, maybe they thought his release would slow down/stop the bombing...:shrug:

Then again, it could just as easily be a fabrication...or others were offered the same deal and they refused as well. It would be interesting if one of the other POW's came forward, but that seems highly unlikely.

[GoesTo11]

36. No one will say it, but many people would do what McCain did there

If you have a choice of

a) being released now in a way that gets you court-martialed, humiliates your military father, and leaves you disgraced for life with all the people you know, getting a dishonorable discharge for jumping the line, or

b) staying in a few years until eventual release knowing that you'll be in harsh conditions but probably not as bad as what you've been through (he'd already had the broken bones from the crash, and the interrogations they do at the start; by then they knew he was an admiral's son). Return home a hero.


It's not an easy choice, but b is just a better choice, even from a self-preservation perspective. Although the morals are different, the self-preservation reasoning is basically the same reason that a jailed member of a gang or a mob won't make a deal to get released early and then go back on the streets and be killed immediately. Or even simpler, we don't commit crimes that could benefit us because we fear the punishment as much as because we think they are wrong (think victimless crimes).

We can't know what he was thinking (only what he tells us), but understanding the fact that he chose the path of self-preservation (which coincided with the correct ethical path for a US POW) means it doesn't tell us as much about his character as the myth says it does.

[Usrename]

37. Given a choice.

Why was he given a choice?

How was he given a choice?

Did some enemy officer order him to be released and then have his order contramanded by McCain?

How does that work?

I don't wonder about anything you just said. It all makes sense. My question is why/how was he given this choice?

[GoesTo11]

41. Could just be "sign this form and you can go"

The North Vietnamese knew he was the son of an admiral. They knew that if he voluntarily accepted a release, then they could use that to demoralize other US prisoners and troops, and it would be a propaganda victory. They wouldn't have gotten any benefit from releasing him if it wasn't in some way a choice of his. That's why they didn't just take him and unconditionally release him. So they might have just asked him "do you want to be released now?" when he knew full well that if he was released before prisoners who were taken earlier, he would face the court martial at home.

I don't think this is that hard to envision.

[Usrename]

42. If they offered him a deal, I'd kinda like to know what the deal was.

He said it was the hardest decision he ever made. If it was a close call for him, it must not have been anything all that bad.

I still don't get it.

Did his captors offer him an opportunity to be heroic? Why would they do that? It still does not make sense to me.

Sorry. I don't understand why they would leave it up to McCain to make this kind of decision.

[rasputin1952]

47. Think of it this way...military courtesy, officer to officer...

then there is the poropaganda coup...this should not have been the most difficult decision he ever made, it was essentially a no brainer.

[madeline_con]

45. Here's the question though.

What's to stop the VNA from picking him up and delivering him to the Americans, whether he wants to go or not? They could do their Tokyo Rose style announcements about privilege either way.

THAT is the question that is not being answered. One unarmed guy can be taken anywhere by a few armed guys.

[Buddy Tess]

53. Yeah, and while we're on the subject of giving medals to heroes.....

.....We should quit handing them out to police officers and fire fighters and all them kind since saving people from burning buildings is just doing their duty, what they're paid to do. Let's save those medals for Joe Blow who happens to stumble onto a burning building and pulls people to safety. THOSE are the real heroes.

[rasputin1952]

56. I lean towrds agreement on that...if cops get medals, those awards should

be for peacefully stopping a situation when everyone else is ready to storm the place.

Medals and citations should go to exemplary individuals who do extraordinary things. Once medals and citations are given out for things that are other than above and beyond the call of duty, they become mere baubles.

One prime example is MacArthur getting the MOH for losing the Phillipines!

[ZenKitty]

24. Your question is disgusting.

Think about it.

Namaste

[Usrename]

26. I am thinking about it.

What's wrong with the question?

Do we need to get permission from the POWs that we have in U.S. custody before we can release them?

Why was it necessary for the NVA to get McCain's permission?

I think it's a proper question. If there is something that you know about this, something other than your disgust, then please share it.

[patrice]

55. "disgusting" . . . ? . . . How very zen of you!

[madeline_con]

31. They had probably brokered a deal because

Grandpa and Daddy were Admirals. McCain was quick to point that out in the interview with the Cuban journalist while they sipped coffee, ate oranges and smoked.

McCain knew he'd never live down getting out ahead of guys who'd been there longer.

Spell edit

[Usrename]

34. Do you think they listened to him because of his family connections?

I guess that could be one explanation.

So is it your opinion that they were actually kowtowing to McCain because of who his father was.

Do you think that is why they let him decide what was going to happen.

If that was the case, McCain was pretty much running things in the prison camp. I don't think so. Somehow that doesn't sound right.

[madeline_con]

38. Not exactly. The high ups, Admiral Daddy, etc. probably

negotiated a release, through whatever means; political, ransom, prisoner exchange who knows. McCian knew he'd either be court martialed or worse for it, and refused to leave.

A trade would make sense, especially since McCain refused to be released, and it made the VC mad. Maybe they knew they wouldn't get their guy unless McCain got out. They also knew that the US was aware of a lot of the prisoners and their dates of capture, so they knew the order of release. IOW, this Alvarez guy was legitimately in the position to go. A lot of peole would know if it went down any other way.


Just my theory.

[Usrename]

40. How did McCain refuse to leave?

How did he do that?

Did he overpower his captors? Did he lock himself in? Did he threaten to hold his breath until he turned blue?

I don't get it.

It still doesn't make sense, especially if an exchange had been arranged.

They would have just exchanged him. They would not get his permission. Would they? Why would they do that?

I does not make any sense at all to me. I wish I could see what everyone else here sees, cause I sure don't see it.

[madeline_con]

44. I googled around, and I think I've found the story...

"McCain’s father, Adm. John S. McCain Jr., had just been awarded command of all U.S. forces in the Pacific, and the North Vietnamese saw an opportunity for a propaganda stunt: Show the world a “merciful” North Vietnamese government, while simultaneously creating a sense among other American prisoners that the “blue bloods” among the POW ranks would easily accept preferential treatment."



http://americanjudgement.blogspot.com/2008/04/mccains-refusal-to-go-home.html

This still asks your question, how could he refuse? They could have dumped him out against his will. It's not like he could force his way back in. Then, their propoganda stunt would have worked. It just occurred to me, the Americans could also have just said he escaped.

[rasputin1952]

48. The "escape" scenario would have flopped as soon as the

repatriation of the other prisoners. McCain would have been torn to shreds.

[madeline_con]

57. That's true.

So caught between duty and freedom, he pretty much HAD to stay. I get it.

I'm starting to see the repurcussions if the VNA forced him out, also.
Thanks for the insight.

[rasputin1952]

58. Well...his "freedom" would have most likely had him do a stint

in a military prison, if the Court-Martial had been used; and his career in the Navy would have been over...no perks whatsoever, no retirement, no medical treatment, VA bennies gone. his family would have disowned him for soiling their careers as well. He didn't really have any choice in matter.

What I am wondering, is if any others were offered early release? There is also the rumor that McCain, when he visited NV, demanded that his prison records be locked up and never put up for public scrutiny. I'm not absolutely sure he actually demanded/requested this action, but I wouldn't put it past him, he's not exactly the most polished of politicians, but he's not stupid when it comes to some things either.

[madeline_con]

59. In his now infamous CIA file, he's chatting with a Cuban "journalist"

drinking cofee and smoking cigarettes. At one point, the narrative mentions him peeling a fresh orange as he talks.

While I'm no expert on North Vietnamese POW camps, this would seem to suggest he was getting privileges others weren't before the offer of early rlease was made. Unless all the horror stories about the torture of POWs are bogus, it stands to reason everyone was not enjoying a hot cuppa joe, smokes and fresh fruit.

I'm sure others were offered early release. Too many generational military families exist for this to be an isolated incident. Presumably, they didn't all run for office and open themselves up to microscopic scrutiny. Demanding that records be expunged does raise some legitimate questions. It usually indicates something is in there that the petitioner doesn't want seen.

[rasputin1952]

65. We have no idea what happened back then...

all we have is McCain's rendition of what went down. I have yet to come across any of the other POW's stories, although I am sure some are out there. But even if they came forward, there is the Common Bond of POW's that keep them very protective of each other. McCain would have had to commit treason for any of them to come forward to discredit him on this issue.

I for one, think McCain is overplaying his POW status, but when his record is scrutinized, it's really all he's got, so he'll run with it as long as he can.To me, it's old history, the only time I get riled up is when I hear McCain being called a "hero", that just burns me up...as I've known a few real heroes in my time, some of which lie under markers in in cemeteries all across this country.

[madeline_con]

82. "all we have is McCain's rendition" AND the Cia file I mentioned. eom

[rasputin1952]

84. And then there's this...

I'm actually surprised I missed this:



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6653233

[iconicgnom]

62. Yet, back to the question: How the hell can a prisoner FORCE his captors to keep him?

Regardless of what and why the prisoner might wish, and what and why the prisoner's compatriots might wish -- those wishes are, by nature of what it MEANS to be prisoner, beside the point. A prisoner might wish to have a strawberry sundae, but a prisoner doesn't get or do anything unless his captors say he gets or does something. Except, of course, to mount ultimate resistance like a hunger strike -- which isn't an issue here.

I find it a bit hilarious in an awful sort of way that nobody except a few (like madeline_con) even understand the question that was asked again and again and again in what must've been increasing tearing-hair-out frustration.

:think: :think: :think: :think: :think:

Oh, by the way, a very good question.

[rasputin1952]

67. He didn't force them, they offered, he refused...if they really wanted to

get rid of him, they could have dropped him off in "friendly" country, or just killed him and said he was "lost". He never forced them to do anything.

[Usrename]

71. That's just it. You think that the offer and the refusal is plausible.

Can you give any other example, anywhere, anytime, when this type of offer was made (without any quid pro quo) and refused?

I can see if they wanted something from him in return for his release. That would make some sense. That I could understand.

But in that case, I would like to know what the actual offer was, seeing as how he now claims that he had great difficulty in turning them down. It was the hardest decision he ever made, or so he says now. So what was the deal? And if there was no deal offered, why did give him the opportunity to say no? Why would they do that?

[rasputin1952]

72. Might have been a psychological ploy for all we know...

gte him all souped up to leave, and then bam, back into solitary after being beaten to a pulp. then he would have had to deal w/the other POW's as well.

But all we have is his take on the whole thing, that alone makes me suspicious. Fact of the matter is, we don't know what happened that day, all we have is Mccain's rendition of the events.

[Usrename]

73. Yes, much hair-tearing going on in this thread.

What is starting to make the most sense to me, after much thought on the subject, is that the real story may be only slightly different.

It could be that McCain knew that he could ask for, and receive, special treatment from his captors, including early release based on his family connections. After much agonizing he decided NOT to be a complete coward and traitor, and that was the hardest decision he ever made.

That sounds very plausible to me, and it dovetails nicely with the only difference I can see between McCain and Bush. Ol' Dubya has never failed to be a complete coward and traitor, and has done so at each and every opportunity that's ever presented itself.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[SmileyRose]

35. I really do not care either way.

On this the guy gets a pass. Period. His cohorts were chickenshits but McCain went when asked. That's enough for me. Whether he embellishes or not I don't really care. He's earned the right IMHO. (though from what I've read he's saying the same thing he's always said about that awful experience and the stories have never changed)

[dorkulon]

43. It's a good question, especially since he got caught lying about the Packers/Steelers thing.

McCain has been telling a story, at least since he wrote it in Faith of My Fathers in 2000, of substituting the names of the Green Bay Packers defensive line for his squadron mates when pressed by Vietnamese interrogators. It's a great story, as All-American as can be. He discussed it in 2005, when A&E did a movie version of the book, including the inspirational scene. Again in 2005, McCain used the story to illustrate how torture yields bad information. On July 9, McCain told the story again at a press conference in Pittsburgh -- only this time is was the Steelers defensive line.

Setting aside the rank stupidity of destroying a great piece of image work for a cheap hometown shout-out to a regional media market, this fib stabs at the heart of McCain's straight-talking war hero mythology. It's a breathtakingly brazen and completely unnecessary lie, at least as bewildering as Hillary Clinton's "sniper fire" silliness, except that Hillary wasn't running as a special forces agent. It calls into question every unconfirmed detail about McCain's POW years -- how many other stories is he just making up? And what kind of man would sully his service with such pointless embellishments?

http://www.alternet.org/election08/94700/top_10_idiocies_of_the_general_election_..._so_far/?page=entire

[cstanleytech]

50. Well my question is if, as he alleged that he was tortured and that he "broke" then

would it not be a risk to put him into one of the most powerful positions of the country when he might again "break" under the strain, its not exactly stress free job for someone who already "broke" once.

[madeline_con]

60. The "break" explains his demand that his records be sealed.

Loose lips sink ships, as they say. I wonder what information they got from him, and how many lives were lost as a result.

[tekisui]

51. A noun, a verb, a POW.

His answer and excuse for everything.

[highplainsdem]

52. There would have been no propaganda value for the North Vietnamese in trying to release

McCain against his will. They'd have had to drag him out kicking and screaming, probably hurting him worse in the attempt, or else drug him, or bind and gag him. Not at all the same thing as showing a POW grateful for release.

We are not going to get anywhere in this campaign trying to discredit McCain's POW story, which you can read more about here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_life_and_military_career_of_John_McCain

We'll just look petty and reinforce negative images of Democrats not respecting our troops and the sacrifices they've made.

[madeline_con]

61. No, exposing him as a singer is important.

Surely the veterans who are not supporting him have all kinds of reasons. Perhaps some of those who were there put what actually happened in the grapevine.

[Usrename]

66. Everybody breaks. That's the nature of torture.

That's why spies were given cyanide pills. I don't think that something like that speaks to his character at all.

I do think he must be stretching the facts about this. If he was offered a deal, and if it was really a crappy deal and he turned it down, then would look bad for him now to say that turning them down was a hard decision, the hardest decision he ever made.

[iconicgnom]

64. nah, I doubt he'd have put up any fight at all. I don't believe he ever was the type.

They'd just take him for a ride, put him in a house, and make a call for the nearest S. Vietnamese or US force to come and get him.

But I agree with the rest, trying to discredit McCain on his POW story would be a big mistake. Doesn't matter how fantastic and illogical the embellishments have become (I made the mistake of listening to a Hannity clip awhile ago... wow, Hannity's version is totally absurd, but he repeated it from 5 to 10 times in as many minutes.)

[rasputin1952]

68. Consider the source...

:eyes:

Haniity would drop dead instantaneously if he ever told the truth...;)

[AngryAmish]

69. He is a traiter and coward

Believe nothing from him.

[IndianaGreen]

74. McCain was a coward! He knew that if he went home ahead of his fellow prisoners

he would forever be labeled a collaborator. You want to talk torture, Admiral Stockdale was tortured! McCain supports torture, despite opposing it months ago!

[Avis]

78. Leaving a wife and kids

.... shouldn't that be an even more difficult decision? How did he just walk away from
his responsibilities on that? Didn't he take vows and make promises there too? Guess they
aren't as important as his promises to the military.

[AmericanUnity]

80. A story about Alexander Solzhenitsyn from his times in the Soviet Gulags.

A story about Alexander Solzhenitsyn from his times in the
Soviet Gulags.

        Along with other prisoners, he worked in the fields
day after day, in rain and sun, during summer and winter. His
life appeared to be nothing more than backbreaking labor and
slow starvation. The intense suffering reduced him to a state
of despair.

        On one particular day, the hopelessness of his
situation became too much for him. He saw no reason to
continue his struggle, no reason to keep on living. His life
made no difference in the world. So he gave up.

        Leaving his shovel on the ground, he slowly walked to
a crude bench and sat down. He knew that at any moment a guard
would order him to stand up, and when he failed to respond,
the guard would beat him to death, probably with his own
shovel. He had seen it happen to other prisoners.

        As he waited, head down, he felt a presence. Slowly he
looked up and saw a skinny old prisoner squat down beside him.
The man said nothing. <b>Instead, he used a stick to
trace in the dirt the sign of the Cross. The man then got back
up and returned to his work.</B>

[dorkulon]

81. Source? /nt

[madeline_con]

83. Here's one source...

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/8/17/15300/5629/128/569386