McCain's cross in the sand story...PLAGIARIZED

[yourguide]

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/8/17/122230/161/239/569299

Long story short. In 1973, a russian author, Alexander Solzhenitsyn, wrote about his time in in the book "The Gulag Archipelago" and relayed exactly the same story.

From the book:

"As he waited, head down, he felt a presence. Slowly he looked up and saw a skinny old prisoner squat down beside him. The man said nothing. Instead, he used a stick to trace in the dirt the sign of the Cross. The man then got back up and returned to his work.

As Solzhenitsyn stared at the Cross drawn in the dirt his entire perspective changed. He knew he was only one man against the all-powerful Soviet empire. Yet he knew there was something greater than the evil he saw in the prison camp, something greater than the Soviet Union. He knew that hope for all people was represented by that simple Cross. Through the power of the Cross, anything was possible."



And here is a nice long excerpt from John McCain's book "Hard Call: The Art of Great Decisions " released in 2005, reprinted in the NY Sun, about what a big fan he is of Alexander Solzhenitsyn writings...

http://www.nysun.com/opinion/solzhenitsyn-at-work/83117/


Edited to add, apparently in 1973 he wrote a very detailed 12,000 word account of his time in Vietnam that was published in US News and world reports and wouldnt you know it, no mention of the cross in the sand...

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/8/17/15300/5629/128/569386

WOW.

[Occam Bandage]

1. It's possible he didn't plagiarize it, but with his age and his love of Solzhenitsyn,

it's more than possible that he got a bit, er, confused.

[KittyWampus]

2. this story appeared in his book from 2005 which was written by McCain & Mark Salter

so no, it isn't about "confusion"

[yourguide]

3. Oh I have a 2008 date on that, let me revise...

[KittyWampus]

6. It's "Character Is Destiny". There a quite a few books supposedly by McCain & Salter

we need to now ask, how much else of McCain's stories are bullshit and plagarism.

[KittyWampus]

19. Oops, maybe I got the wrong book

[yourguide]

32. yes and no

Apparently in 2005 he printed the tale in "character is destiny" as his own.

In Aug of 2007 in "Hard Call" he raved on about how much he loved Solzhenitsyn.

My BF just told be that in 2005 was McCain's first written mention of the cross in the sand story.

[Occam Bandage]

4. I don't think that's incompatible with confusion. It's not uncommon for pre-senile people

to become confused as to what has and has not happened to them. Not all incompetence is deliberate. It hardly excuses him; a mentally-deficient President is worse than a cunning one.

[KittyWampus]

8. So you think Mark Salter is pre-senile? Because he is the one who actually wrote the book

along with all the other books McCain "wrote".

And I'm just playing devil's advocate with you :)

Because neither possibility is advantageous for McCain- he's either getting senile and repeating things he's read as his own past by mistake or on purpose.

I personally think Mark Salter has been inventing the entire McCain bullshit image for decades and McCain really is a Manchurian candidate.

Edit- just wanted to make sure you realize I'm not being snippy with you personally.

[Occam Bandage]

14. But he wrote it entirely off McCain's memories, of course; Salter wasn't there.

The best he could do is say, "so, tell me what happened there," and then pretty up what McCain told him. I'd bet that McCain once had a guard who had a soft spot for him, and that the guard once winked or something at McCain to let him know that he wasn't going to hurt him. He then filled in the cross business after reading and internalizing the prison-camp story.

That's my take, at any rate.

[progdonkey]

74. I know I'm being kind of snippy...

but are you sure you're using the term "Manchurian Candidate" correctly? Like, do you believe that John McCain is an actual sleeper agent after his POW experience in Vietnam, waiting to be "activated" by some cue, making him the puppet of the Communist government of the People's Republic of North Vietnam?

Or do you just mean he's an opportunist, embellisher of personal history, charlatan, etc.?

[tblue37]

21. Like Reagan thinking he had been involved in the

liberation of prison camps druing WWII, and confusing his movie roles with reality.

[Occam Bandage]

73. Exactly. Another senile Republican President who couldn't remember what was real.

[BlooInBloo]

13. Huh? There's no such thing as plagiarizing *yourself*.

[yourguide]

22. except for when you plagiarized it from

a book written in 1973...

[BlooInBloo]

24. Ah - so in 2005 he stole the story. Gotcha - thanks!

[unblock]

36. actually, there is, thanks to the wonders of intellectual property law

john fogerty, for instance, was sued for copyright violation. the owners of "run through the jungle" (which fogerty wrote when he was a part of credence clearwater revival) claimed that "the old man down the road" was the same song with different lyrics.

fogerty won, but on the merits of the case, not as a matter of law. had the jury gone the other way, he would have had to pay for pliagiarizing a song he wrote himself.

[yardwork]

40. In academics, being confused or forgetting a citation is not a valid defense.

Plagiarism is plagiarism - makes no difference whether it was intentional or not. If you use somebody else's work and don't cite it, then you are guilty of plagiarism, and excuses like "I forgot that it didn't really happen to me" are not valid.

[Occam Bandage]

43. Any political speech wouldn't pass academic muster. Citations are few and far between.

Not to defend the old coot--or to compare the situation--but I remember the same bogus "but IN ACADEMIA" argument being made about Obama's "plagiarism" of Deval Patrick, who suggested he use the line in question. Academia is not politics, and vice versa.

[yardwork]

66. In politics there's a huge difference between lifting someone's line

and "remembering" a life-changing experience.

[Occam Bandage]

72. There is indeed, but "in academics" is not a valid line of reasoning to push that.

[yardwork]

75. Didn't say it was. I was just saying.

[grantcart]

67. no but their is a great deal of difference between borrowing a slogan or

a phrase and stealing a story to highlight your POW days.

[OmahaBlueDog]

76. Kinda like Ronald Reagan telling stories that turned out to be from his movies?

[redqueen]

91. Either way - early alzheimers or shameless liar - he's UNFIT FOR OFFICE.

IMO at least. :)

[Phredicles]

5. Hey, if you're gonna steal, steal from the greats;

Occam Bandage makes a good point about how this may even be an honest mistake. But there needs to be some acknowledgement from McLame, his handlers, and/or his apologists in the press, and soon.

[miles 2 go]

28. Yes, and it's possible that Cindy thought that cookie recipe

really was hers. :sarcasm:

[opihimoimoi]

I thought it was a bit hookey...but to his base...it worked...gave him an op to insert the POW thing

for the second time

He is despicable....

[Epiphany4z]

12. it screams

hey base...believers...I think your stupid....I don't even have to cover my tracks.

[opihimoimoi]

18. Preaching to the Choir is one thing, decieving them is another...

Preaching falsehoods reduces Credibilty...Preaching 101.04

[KamaAina]

95. Maybe he'll pick Giuliani for VP

Transcript of campaign speech: "POW 9/11 POW 9/11 POW 9/11 POW 9/11 POW 9/11 POW 9/11 POW 9/11 POW 9/11..." ad nauseam. :puke:

[LuckyLib]

7. He's creating reality where it didn't happen, much like Hillary did with the sniper fire story.

Tell that story a few times and they think it really happened. Problem is, in today's world someone can check.

[yourguide]

10. Thats right...

he hasnt figured that out yet, isnt he still sending telegrams to Obama demanding lincoln-douglas style debates?

:rofl:

[Cosmocat]

33. Spot on, EXCEPT ...

I didn't buy the story when he told it ... I have a pretty good BS meter, and it was tingling pretty good ...

I agree, this is REAL Hillish, in that he has told it to the point where he believes it ...

Only difference, Hill got called on it ...

NOT A CHANCE the MSM nails him for embellshing or even flat out making up one or more of his POW stories ... If it was a D, obviously, the would pile on him over LIES ... But, his being an R, his service is sacrosanct ...

[saltpoint]

9. Not only that, but he and Cindy are getting sloppy with ther

plagiarized libraries.

She's got something in her recipe book called "Gulag Gumbo."

Coincidence? I think not.

[yourguide]

17. Hahahahaha

Took me a sec to get that...brilliant!

[opihimoimoi]

20. LOL...I forgot about the recipe thingy....OMG, and they call themselves good Christains?

[tomg]

31. You can find it on Wikipedia

under "Georgian cuisine."

[truthisfreedom]

11. Ouch. Caught like a rat in a trap.

Poor McPlagarist.

[CitizenPatriot]

15. mc cain is a liar, nothing to see here....

he's a liar.

snip:

A former Vietnamese Communist Party official is claiming Sen. John McCain was "quickly singled out for softer treatment" as a POW because "he was the son of an American admiral. Phung Van Chung, 70, who was a Communist Party official at the time McCain was captured said "top" Vietnamese leaders wanted to use McCain "for negotiations." Chung also said McCain is refusing "to acknowledge" the heroism of Mai Van On, a Vietnamese peasant who the Vietnamese say swam out during the bombing raid and rescued McCain from drowning. McCain's refusal to publicly recognize Mai Van On for saving "his life" has some in the media speculating that McCain is afraid that to do so would "fuel other, more damaging allegations that McCain exaggerated elements of his PoW ordeal in Hoa Lo prison.

CUT MORE AT:

http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/

and this is a new favorite:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Oot9IbQxrI&eurl=http://timmy.vox.com/library/post/if-karl-rove-was-a-democrat.html?_c=feed-atom

[Cleita]

16. So this is up there with Cindy McCain's recipes.

If those two plagiarize with impunity, what else have they cheated on and will cheat on if allowed to attain the most powerful position in the world? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Blue_Roses]

23. listening to that story made me want to reel...

it stunk to high heavens and I swear I got the feeling it was, well, shall we say, far-fetched. This is so interesting to see...

[mzmolly]

25. Spread the word ...

K and R.

[jwirr]

42. Be sure that KO gets this. nt

[TexasObserver]

26. Good. I've always thought he made the story up.

This makes even more sense now. He's too stupid to make it up. He had to steal it.

[globalvillage]

27. Maybe it wasn't a cross

Maybe the guard started to draw the Steelers logo, then remembered McCain liked Green Bay, so he stopped after the first +. That would explain both stories.

[KittyWampus]

30. ouch

[Flying Dream Blues]

55. Bwahahahahaha...good one!

[Enrique]

87. thanks

i enjoyed that post. :-)

[FrenchieCat]

29. This should have like 500 recommendations......

which is the only way that the corporate media will even touch it; if they know that the bloggers are running with it and that the story will not be disappearing anytime soon.

K&R! :patriot:

[AndyTiedye]

34. "All Your Intellectual Property Are Belong To Us"

I wonder if Solzhenitsyn's publisher will sue.

[Usrename]

35. It's time for McCain to "just fade away."

"Old soldiers never die; they just fade away." - General Douglas MacArthur

McCain will become a complete embarassment (if he isn't already). He needs to be gently put out to pasture. He's infirm.

[goodgd_yall]

37. Good catch

If it was for real, this story would have been in his book.

[AzDar]

38. K & R ...

:kick:

[rndmprsn]

39. K+R BIG TIME

i bet a dollar the corpMedia won't call him on this...and the left won't swiftboat him either.

too freaking bad.

[pollo poco]

41. k & r n/t

[Alcibiades]

44. If this were a Democrat

The so-called liberal journalists in the so-called liberal media would be grilling Obama and his staff about the inconsistencies. Remember how they covered the Swiftboaters nonstop? Because character matters, unless you're a Republican, in which case anything goes.

What's interesting to me is that this whole "cross in the sand" thing was a chain e-mail. I like to go to snopes and check out just about every other one of these things I get, but I didn't do this one, despite the fact that it sounded contrived. I admit to not reading Solzhenitsyn (not much into literature), but I find it hard to believe that I'm the only person who's automatically suspicious of right-wing chain e-mail--surely somebody must have noted this some time ago.

[janet118]

69. The only thing Snopes will say . . .

is "TRUE. McCain did tell this story during an interview with Rick Warren IN 2008."

[pansypoo53219]

45. he used it for the current NPR all things considered

'this i believe'. i did not know of the solzhenitsyn version, but i found it odd coming from mcPOW. so maybe my instincts were right.

[Phx_Dem]

46. Bob Schieffer needs a copy of this. n/t

[janet118]

47. McCain re-tells many cinematic prisoner of war stories

It sounds like McCain's life at the Hanoi Hilton was a combination of Stalag 17 and The Great Escape with a touch of gulag and gladiator stories tossed in for good measure. He is the James Frye of Vietnam POWs.

There's the interchangeable football teams that he claims to have used to prevent torture (this is similar to another Vietnam era story about prisoners using names like Ben Casey and Clark Kent during interrogations). Has anyone else seen the viral email about McCain's tale of the the American flag supposedly made out of a shirt and used to recite the Pledge of Allegiance. And now The Cross in the Dirt.

I may have a more highly developed crap detector than most, but these sound a lot like the Jessica Lynch and Pat Tillman faux war stories.

We should all hope that McCain keeps telling these little screenplays until he either gets caught in a Bosnian-type lie or until everyone's crap detector is a-buzzin'. Many veterans have very good crap detectors from listening exaggerated or borrowed war stories from self-promoting gasbags at the American Legion.

Oh, does this story about POW Ross Randle Terry sound familiar:

Compassion, of sorts, was also shown in other ways. Terry recalls one occasion, when his wrists were sore and bleeding from being tightly shackled for a long period of time: "This guard came in with a bowl of rice. He uncuffed one hand, as they usually did, so that I could eat. When I was finished, he put the cuff back on my wrist and there was only one 'click.' At first I thought he had just made a mistake. He looked at me, placed a finget to his lips, in a gesture to be quiet, turned and walked away." After a good night's sleep, the first in a long time without his hands being cuffed behind him, Terry became concerned about the guard and re-secured the handcuffs himself.

[K8-EEE]

51. LOL, no kidding, waiting for him to go into a Hogans Heroes episode

He knows NUTHINK!!! NUTHINK!

[janet118]

90. Dis-missed!

[JDPriestly]

48. McCain and Sozhenitsyn could have had similar experiences.

I once worked in a firm in which another attorney told an unusual experience with his father as a child, to which he attributed his ability to argue persuasively. I was quite surprised, because I had precisely the same "unusual" formative experience and have three sibling witnesses to vouch for it. Both our fathers were excellent debaters and organized debates within the family at the dinner table.

It's probably not that uncommon for your dad to organize dinner-table debates if he is a lawyer, but mine wasn't, and I don't think his was either. These were fairly formal debates -- four children close to each other in age -- means two debate teams.

I didn't want to chime in "Me too," but I learned that there are strange coincidences.

So, with that caveat in mind. Wouldn't you think that, in writing his own story any time after Solzhenitsyn wrote his similar story, McCain would have mentioned that he shared an experience similar to Sozhenitsyn's? His failure to mention that fact is what makes me suspicious that he simply borrowed the story.

In these post-internet days, cross-referencing and research are within the grasp of everyone. Funny thing is that MSM journalists on the whole are too fat and lazy to catch something like this. Ahhhhh, the beauty of the "internets." Makes the world unfriendly to liars and thieves like some of the folks in the Republican Party.

[Alcibiades]

49. Solzhenitsyn himself hated plagiarism

Looking to see if this story has been picked up yet, I found this on page 1 of Google's results for "McCain Solzhenitsyn plagiarism." It's a Time story from 1974:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,908685-1,00.html

Snip

A Matter of Plagiarism

"Solzhenitsyn, now living in exile in Zurich, notes that Sholokhov, a former laborer and clerk with scarcely any education, was only 23 years old when he published the first volume in 1928. Yet, Solzhenitsyn points out, "the book reveals the kind of literary power attainable only after many attempts by an experienced and accomplished writer." He also joins many critics in observing that Sholokhov's other fiction (Seeds of Tomorrow, Harvest on the Don) is strikingly inferior to The Quiet Don, which was completed in 1940. It became the best-selling Soviet novel in the U.S.S.R. (6 million copies translated into 40 different Soviet languages), and Soviet textbooks extol it as the supreme literary accomplishment of Communism. The book continues to be widely read in Soviet schools.

Solzhenitsyn's charge will doubtless prove embarrassing to the leaders in the Kremlin, where the 69-year-old Sholokhov reigns as a court novelist and hatchet man for cultural hardliners. In recent years, Sholokhov has frequently denounced liberal writers; in 1969 he characterized Solzhenitsyn as a "Colorado beetle" who deserved extermination as a noxious plant pest."

[Joanne98]

88. It would be nice if the family sued.

[Diane R]

50. So, when was the earliest that McCain told that story? Soon after his release, or in 2005?

[Spazito]

60. He made NO mention of this life-changing "seared in his memory" incident...

in his VERY DETAILED account written in 1973:

snip

When I said that, the guards, who were all in the room—about 10 of them—really laid into me. They bounced me from pillar to post, kicking and laughing and scratching. After a few hours of that, ropes were put on me and I sat that night bound with ropes. Then I was taken to a small room. For punishment they would almost always take you to another room where you didn't have a mosquito net or a bed or any clothes. For the next four days, I was beaten every two to three hours by different guards. My left arm was broken again and my ribs were cracked.

They wanted a statement saying that I was sorry for the crimes that I had committed against North Vietnamese people and that I was grateful for the treatment that I had received from them. This was the paradox—so many guys were so mistreated to get them to say they were grateful. But this is the Communist way.

end of snip

Nothing about the Christian guard there



snip

Now I don't hate them any more—not these particular guys. I hate and detest the leaders. Some guards would just come in and do their job. When they were told to beat you they would come in and do it. Some seemed to get a big bang out of it. A lot of them were homosexual, although never toward us. Some, who were pretty damned sadistic, seemed to get a big thrill out of the beatings.

From that time on it was one round of rough treatment followed by another. Sometimes I got it three or four times a week. Sometimes I'd be off the hook for a few weeks. A lot of it was my own doing, because they realized far better than we did at first the value of communicating with our fellow Americans. When they caught us communicating, they'd take severe reprisals. I was caught a lot of times. One reason was because I'm not too smart, and the other reason was because I lived alone. If you live with somebody else you have somebody helping you out, helping you survive.

end of snip

Nothing there either.

http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/2008/01/28/john-mccain-prisoner-of-war-a-first-person-account.html?PageNr=1

I believe "The Gulag Archipelago" by Alexander Solzhenitsyn came out in 1973.

McCain's "memory" surfaced well after 1973.

[NinetySix]

52. Reminds me of an old Steven Wright joke.

He said, "One time I was ... no, wait, that wasn't me."

[HughMoran]

53. I once folded a map of the United States

"actual size"

:rofl:

I love Steven Wright.

[sandnsea]

63. Somebody stole my POW camp

and replaced it with an exact replica...

of Solzhenytzin's Gulag.

[jefferson_dem]

54. This story is getting some legs. Freeperville is deleting threads as fast as "trolls" can post them.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2063475/posts

[DinahMoeHum]

56. Hah!! The thread has been "pulled"

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

[proud2BlibKansan]

57. So McCan'tReadAMap is a McPlagiarizer??

This is getting to be fun. :woohoo:

[grillo7]

58. John McCain was invented by Mark Salter...K&R n/t

[K8-EEE]

59. Fake Cross In The Dirt story already YANKED on FR!

LOL!! Somebody posted it there earlier but it seems to have been disapeared.

Natch they fell for McCain's cornball act hook line & sinker, guess they didn't like finding out HOW phony it was.

Of course, they voted for Bush so their gullibility obviously has no limits.

[grillo7]

61. This combined with the no baptism thing could sink his battleship...

Evangelicals may not vote for Obama, but if we can reveal what a fake and phony McCain is, a lot of them will just stay home on election day.

[jefferson_dem]

62. Is McCain Now Copying Solzhenitsyn? -- Taegan Goddard

Is McCain Now Copying Solzhenitsyn?

By Taegan Goddard | August 17, 2008 8:23 PM | Permalink | Comments (0)
Last week, a speech by Sen. John McCain had phrases that were likely lifted directly from Wikipedia.

Now it seems McCain may have lifted another story last night at megachurch pastor Rick Warren's Faith Forum. According to a very persuasive Daily Kos diary, the anecdote McCain told about a North Vietnamese prison guard making a cross in the dirt as a sign of solidarity -- or as he said, "just two Christians worshiping together" -- is very similar to a story about Alexander Solzhenitsyn and his times in the Soviet Gulags.

"As Solzhenitsyn stared at the Cross drawn in the dirt his entire perspective changed. He knew he was only one man against the all-powerful Soviet empire. Yet he knew there was something greater than the evil he saw in the prison camp, something greater than the Soviet Union. He knew that hope for all people was represented by that simple Cross. Through the power of the Cross, anything was possible."

Steven Waldman notes that McCain's recounting of this story has changed over the years and "has gradually morphed from being about the humanity of the guard to being about the Christian faith of the guard and John McCain."

Andrew Sullivan says that McCain's early accounts of his years as a POW do not even include this story.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/politicalinsider/2008/08/is-mccain-now-copying-solzheni.html

[McCamy Taylor]

64. This story could hurt Obama more than McCain. You have video of Christmas Day like with Snipergate?

You have footage of McCain getting flowers from some girl on a tarmac when he is supposed to be getting a cross drawn in the sand by a guard? If not, it is his word vs. your word and the press is his base. They will say

1. in 1973 he was so angry at the North Vietnamese he did not want to tell any story humanized them

2. later he softened towards his former captors and this story was his way of showing that

And they will pretend to be outraged that Obama personally directed his supporters to call a former POW and war hero a liar about his POW experiences.

If they want to get really nasty, they will invite the Clinton supporters who are still angry over Snipergate to complain that this represents a pattern of character attacks.

So, be careful unless you want this to all blow back on Obama.

My advice is pursue the McCain cheated story instead. This one sounds too dangerous. And focus on the economy instead of religion!

[Spazito]

65. LOL!

Your sympathies are noted.

[JackORoses]

77. oh no, it's too dangerous!!! give me a gigantic break.

This sounds like something a Repuke would say.

"Be careful. Don't bring up the old man's lies and manipulations. Nobody will believe you."

[eridani]

79. Obama shouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. However--

--that doesn't apply to the rest of us.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

85. So let me get this straight: This story can't be used against him because it isn't like Snipergate

With the pictures and all.

If we do use it against him, we will be attacked by Clinton supporters who are angry (?) over Snipergate. Which had pictures to substantiate it.

:crazy:

[janet118]

92. Actually, it's the pattern that could damage McCain . . .

This "cross in dirt/sand" story should be just one of the building blocks in McCain's pattern of fraudulent tale spinning, e.g., giving the names of the defensive line of "whatever town I'm in's" football team, the Pledge of Allegiance to shirt or handkerchief story, etc.

I agree that Obama and his paid campaign staff should stay away from it, but not bloggers. Like the "Al Gore is a serial liar" meme, this could pick up momentum until one of McCain's POW stories is finally outed as a provable lie.

The growing collection of McCain's POW Fairy Tales sound a lot like the self-serving propaganda attempts of the US military to make Jessica Lynch and Pat Tillman heroes. Since those heroic tales were outed as 100% bullsnot, many more people are suspicious of these kind of cinematic stories. I'm sure the audience of evangelicals at Saddleback that McCain was playing to believed his little parable, but that doesn't mean it will fool all of the people, all of the time.

[TrogL]

68. Drawing in the sand and rubbing it out goes back to Biblical times

[globalvillage]

71. Early Christians drew fish in the dirt

It was a code to identify Christians to one another.

[skyounkin]

78. That's what I was thinking too

He drew a cross in the sand? Who hasn't at some point in time? Really- do I think he palgerized? No- during a times of severe and fantastic stress people will do things to create images to reflect upon, escape to from the horrors they are facing. I'm not gonna get too worked up about this.

[LostinVA]

89. That['s what I was thinking -- McCain may or may not have been telling the truth

Fish were once used. It makes sense that crosses could be used in such a situation.

So, maybe he's lying, maybe he's cribbing. Who knows. BUt, they are plenty of other things to attack him on.

[bklyncowgirl]

70. ...ain't it convenient Solzhenitsyn 's not around to complain any more.

I wonder how long Straight Talk Johnny's been spinning this one?

[WhiteTara]

80. John McCain is a beer alcoholic who has

to take drugs and cheat to even come close to matching the intellect of Barack Obama.

[alfredo]

81. Send it to all media outlets. I've already e-mailed it to friends.

One is a journalist.

[thenationalchronicle]

82. Imagine the stink if it was a Dem

Suppose Obama had lied about something he used in his bio...

[opihimoimoi]

83. Far too many signs McPasture is over due.....call it a night and retire to the Green Grass

Its OVER....too many signs...too few Voters this time....People have seen the Bad Light of Bush and his/yours policies and are rejecting them as all bad....

The Evidense is stunningly Obvious.....People know when its time to risk change for the Better...now is one of those times

[Douglas Carpenter]

84. Kick and recommended

[fasttense]

86. Seems that despite having the questions a head of time and

despite the lying preacher covering for him, McInsane still lied and got the answers wrong. What a dumb f**k.

[Mugsy]

93. Grab the video.

I grabbed a copy of the McCain ad video off YouTube before it disappears forever.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WTu7drLfRc

[happygoluckytoyou]

94. but i did see MCCAIN'S face in a POTATO...does that count