The Giving Hillary

[McCamy Taylor]

"Come, Boy, come and climb up my trunk and swing from my branches
and eat apples and play in my shade and be happy."

The Giving Tree Shel Silverstein
http://www.shelsilverstein.com/html/books.asp

Tonight, Keith Olbermann and MSNBC election’s expert Chuck Todd discussed the 11% of U.S. voters who consider themselves Clinton Democrats who still have not switched their allegiance to Barack Obama. According to the polls cited, this group continues to hold bitter feelings left over from the primaries. Olbermann and Todd agreed that it is up to Hillary Clinton to persuade this 11% to let go of their anger and to unite behind the Democratic nominee. With the race between Obama and McCain in a statistical dead heat, this 11% will decide the race, and only Hillary can tell them how to vote. Only she can make them see that Obama is worthy of their support, by standing before them in Denver and delivering a spirited, selfless, ringing endorsement of her rival----

I wonder if Olbermann ever read “The Giving Tree”. Years ago, I had to provide the voice of the Tree in a puppet animation in school, so I know the story well. The tiny children who watched the story unfold did not cheer for the selfish little boy. They cheered for my character, the selfless tree, who gave and gave and gave, until she had no more to give.

Last spring, I wrote that Hillary Clinton could not heal the Party’s wounds. Had she been ugly in defeat, it would have been easier for Barack Obama to snatch up her voters. However, she failed to live up to the predictions of those who said that she must be defeated, because in defeat she would do everything in her power to ruin the Democrats’ chances in the fall. Her enemies were so disappointed in her lack of bad behavior that they began to ascribe hidden, malignant motives for her good behavior. A no vote on FISA was an attempt to undercut Obama’s credibility. Kind words about Obama were a self serving lie. When she turned over her donor list, it was only so that she could get Obama’s donor list in order to retire her own debt.

http://blogs.reuters.com/trail08/2008/08/10/michelle-obama-hillary-clinton-to-open-democratic-convention/

Hillary knows well that pretending to support Obama is the only way to protect her political future and continued presidential hopes in 2012. Perhaps Michelle’s positive energy that first night will inspire Hillary to step up in likewise sincere fashion instead of plotting every which way to advance her 2012 agenda.

In an environment like this, where any RNC mole or Clinton basher can go online and post that Hillary the Evil Bitch-Witch with Laser Beam Eyes is Only Pretending to Like Obama, you have to be a saint to even show up at the convention in Denver to deliver a speech praising your formal rival. (That is the intention of every post like this—to keep the Clintons far away from Denver and to keep the Democrats divided). Luckily, Hillary Clinton does not care much what people say about her.

Watching Hillary Clinton give of herself will delight every Democrat who did not get sucked into the Hillary vs. Barack War. However, it is not going to convince any of her hard core 11% that they should like Barack Obama. In order to accomplish that, Barack Obama needs to start giving.

Unfortunately, two speaking slots at the convention, one for the Senator and one for the ex-president do not count as giving. Those count as taking, since the new Democratic Party under Obama is being anointed by the popular old Party under Bill Clinton, without Obama having to offer the Clintons anything in exchange.

Since everyone is so convinced that Barack Obama has made up his mind that he can not have Bill Clinton within a mile of his White House, I guess I will have to accept the popular wisdom. However, it would not have cost anything to have arranged a deal in which he pretended to offer the vice presidency to Hillary Clinton and she declined it, perhaps citing a desire to remain in the Senate now that Ted Kennedy is ailing. This would have been a very nice olive branch. I estimate that at least half of the 11% would have taken notice of this kind of gesture. This would have been giving .

I can hear the objections. That is what the witch wants him to do! She would say that she was going to decline and then she would accept. And then she would assassinate him! I wonder if there is a DSM-IV code for Clinton Phobia.

If KO and Chuck Todd have their way, next week, we will see Hillary Clinton do a remarkable impersonation of Joan of Arc crowning the Dauphin---and we know who the hero of that tale is. Since Obama has studied heroic myths, I expected him to realize that the way to make himself the star of the show was by giving a little bit more of himself.

[ProSense]

1. " the Evil Bitch-Witch with Laser Beam Eyes is Only Pretending to Like Obama"

Barrack Obama needs to start giving. Unfortunately, two speaking slots at the convention, one for the Senator and one for the ex-president do not count as giving. Those count as taking, since the new Democratic Party under Obama is being anointed by the popular old Party under Bill Clinton, without Obama having to offer the Clintons anything in exchange.

I can hear the objections. That is what the witch wants him to do! She would say that she was going to decline and then she would accept. And then she would assassinate him!

What are you smoking?

[Whisp]

2. . . .

:rofl:

the giving hillary...


:rofl:

[greguganus]

94. The Taking Hillary. nt

:puke: :rofl:

[Spazito]

3. ROFLMAO!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[ProSense]

4. .

:rofl:

[berni_mccoy]

108. LOLOL

[Egnever]

5. If you really believe that

wow just wow

[scheming daemons]

6. Now THAT is some world-class spin..... Bravo

"...two speaking slots at the convention, one for the Senator and one for the ex-president do not count as giving. Those count as taking..."


That's some impressive stuff.


You're in the wrong line of work. The campaigns could use you.

[americanstranger]

76. Isn't it actually THREE speaking slots?

Since the Clintons negotiated one for the kid as well?

- as

[inthebrain]

7. Anyone that really thinks there's bad blood between the two

Haven't really been following them before the election. Hillary and Obama ARE friends. They're both politicians, know the game and are familiar with the stakes. They aren't going to take the campaign personally.

Furthermore, Obama was Hillary's protege for a while. They both spent time together in the senate (Recall Boxer challenging the election results in 04. Obama and Hillary stood side by side through the whole thing) and Hillary introduced Obama at the 04 convention. There's history between the two.

Obama is probably going to pick Hillary. At this point she's the only one they haven't focused on and that's just smart politics allowing the primary wars to settle a bit.

[McCamy Taylor]

10. Logic says that he will. However, every single Obama supporter on this board screams NO

if you suggest it as if it would be some kind of abomination.

[ProSense]

13. I got your logic

right here


:rofl:

[Metric System]

8. Thanks. As for the Usual Suspects, they don't get it. They just don't get it.

[BlooInBloo]

9. Another Clinton supporter who just can't be bothered to spell the Democratic Nominee's name right.

[McCamy Taylor]

12. Oops. Thanks.

For some reason, spell checker wants it with two "r"s. They should fix that.

[Life Long Dem]

11. Someone says "Hillary the Evil Bitch-Witch with Laser Beam Eyes is Only Pretending to Like Obama" ?

wow

[CakeGrrl]

14. How could this evening end any other way, really?

"Barrack" the "Dauphin" needs to kiss Hillary-Joan-of-Arc's ass.

Whee.

Yes, Hillary sure is a giver. Just ask John McCain, who, thanks to Hillary's endorsement, is thought of as a better prospect as Commander in Chief by those who supported her in the primaries, at least according to the doomsday Zogby/Reuters poll that's got everyone in a tizzy.

Who does BARACK Obama think he is to ask her to support OUR side?

[McCamy Taylor]

16. Umm.... Obama had a big lead over McCain at the end of the primaries.

Obama is a big boy, and I doubt that he would appreciate you blaming his current standing in the polls on some other Democrat.

[Skwmom]

20. Obama is fighting three fronts - the corporate media which provides hundreds of

millions in free advertising, the Republicans and the Clinton 2012 gang.

[CakeGrrl]

23. I'm blaming HRC for saying SEVERAL TIMES during the primary that John McCain was more qualified

than her fellow Democrat. And some of her more die-hard supporters have taken it to heart.

It's a matter of record, not a source of shame for pointing out. That's a line that no other Democrat has crossed. You don't tear down your own party member by crossing the line to praise the opposition...and be rewarded or lauded for it to boot.

[27inCali]

30. BINGO

all the other stuff could easily been forgiven and cool.

She crossed a very clearly demarcated line when she did that.

For many of us who would of been cool with either one from the start.

When she went THERE, the way we felt changed.

Until the Clinton supporters accept that THAT one instance, she was way over the line and we have a right to be upset and feel betrayed, they just wont get it.

Obama, never crossed that line in attacking her.

[McCamy Taylor]

37. "Vodoo Economics" If you do not recognize it, look it up.

[CakeGrrl]

105. Does not get your girl off the hook. Some of you would sweep it under a rug

if she ate a live baby on stage just to give her the greenlight to be #2. "All's fair in politics!"

:crazy:

[griffi94]

15. it's an interesting theory

i'm not sure it holds water. i do believe that if 11% of hillarys supporters sit out or vote mccain, that obama is in trouble.
at this point it may be hard to get them back. a lot of the ones who used to post here have been banned, the remainder seem to draw a fair bit of wrath, and i've seen the posts telling them to get out of the democratic party and obama doesn't need their votes.
i realize du is a very small portion of the voting public, but i also figure that if it's happening here it's happening outside of here as well.
scorn and ridicule probly won't win that 11% back.

[Jakes Progress]

55. I think that is the point of the OP.

Just why do so many here on DU not care if those eleven percent don't vote for Obama? They stamp their tiny feet and call people names. Does that sound like a very good way to get people to vote for your candidate? I think it sounds like a very good way to get mccain elected. I see those who post the nasty Clinton treads as either gop plants trying to create discord or the product of that kind of posting.

[beac]

17. Yeah,

Hillary's a real martyr. :nopity:

[Skwmom]

18. Hillary Clinton, selfless and the Giving Tree do not belong in the same sentence.

With the earlier mention of "I hope Hillary doesn't turn down the VP offer" I just knew this was coming.

You people need to give it up.

The Clintons, once again asking what can you do for me, and not what we can do for our country (especially since they played a role in screwing it up - NAFTA and financial deregulation - for starters). Wow, what a big surprise.

Obama will get a lot of disenchanted Republican and right leaning independent voters as long as he doesn't become closely associated with the toxic Clintons.

[McCamy Taylor]

29. The only place Obama may get GOP and Independent voters is in the west.

In the south, he can kiss off the Republican and Independent vote, because the dividing line between Democratic and Republican is whether or not a person wants to be in the party that includes African-Americans or they want to be in the party that suppresses the vote of African-Americans because they have been taught to fear the Black man.

As you move north, there are more Democrats, but you get more "red neck" Democrats, people who are in the party because of working class and union ties who are scared that minorities are going to steal their jobs. They feel this way, because their employers have taught them to feel this way. Every time they have a strike, the employer has traditionally brought in minority scab labor to bust the strike. This has been going on for decades and has resulted in a fracturing of the working class which benefits the capitalists. These so called blue collar white working class Democrats are very easy for the Republicans to exploit. All they have to do is point to the bad economy, suggest that jobs may be in danger and that employers might lay off and relocate to an area where they can hire lower wage (minority) employees. So, once again, you get a pool of voters who are scared to vote for a Black man, this time in areas like Pennsylvania and surrounding states.

He can win over the northern industrial states with someone whom the workers trust to look out for their interests. He will never win over the Republicans and Independents in the South. The best he can hope for is that they hate McCain so much that they vote for Bob Barr instead and that enough Democrats turn out to help him win a few Southern states.

In the west, where race will not matter, he could do quite well. However, he will not win the election just with the low electoral vote western states.

[Skwmom]

33. I've lived in the South and you are wrong. Your description applies to certain

Republicans and Independents but not all.

Plus, there are A LOT of northerners that have retired to the south.

[McCamy Taylor]

53. There is a reason why all election laws in the South have to be ok'd by the DOJ.

Obama will be lucky if even Democrats are allowed to the polls to vote for him down here. Right now Republican secretaries of state are hard at work making sure that minorities---Latinos and Blacks---will find their access to the polls this fall limited. And if anyone complains to the Bush DOJ, absolutely nothing will be done. And our do nothing Congress has done nothing, too.

[lojasmo]

72. And CLinton can help that...how?

[Skwmom]

85. In 04, I talked to many people in the south who would not support Clark b/c they thought he was

in bed with the Clintons. Obama not being close to the Clintons can really help out with a lot of voters.

[Zhade]

36. Polls show a majority of *registered voters* do not want her on his ticket.

NT!

[babylonsister]

58. Please, STOP! Don't presume to know what will happen. No one should. nt

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lojasmo]

73. Midwest.

Lots of my indie co-workers, and even die hard republicans will vote for Obama. hell. One co-worker who has NEVER voted for a democrat caucussed for Obama this year.

Obama's going to do fine. Even with Bill nut-swinging about the race card.

[McCamy Taylor]

19. JUst for fun "The Press v. Hillary: Leaping Lesbians" about the RW media attack on Hillary

I wrote this as part of a 4 part study on media bias against Clinton.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4977117

Lots of people who post stuff at DU are repeating stories straight out of the RW news media. I think some of them know it, too.

[Jakes Progress]

21. If Obama were known by his supporters

here on DU, he'd have to beg America to forgive him. I think he is a better man than the freepers who post so nastily here about Hillary. Unlike so many keyboard warriors here who spend their days looking for Hillary threads to snark on, I actually work at the local Democratic headquarters. When smarmy ass twits like these show up there, they are given the cold shoulder by the workers in the trenches. Snide remarks about Clinton are not taken well. These little twerps are usually just there to say how cool they are and how really tacky Hillary is rather than do any work. They rarely show up more than once. They drink the coffee, eat the donuts, sit around and spout shit, and then leave with only half their flyers done.

I know it's a big tent, but the odor from these self-important gits is really fogging up the place. Here in the real world, we are trying to elect a Democrat. In the little world of their heads where they live, they lack the light to understand. It is just so cool to snark and then go get a beer. Sokay. We've got their asses covered. We'll get the job done without and despite them.

K&R McCamy.

[ProSense]

22. Right, Obama supporters are horrible people to believe this:

Barrack Obama needs to start giving. Unfortunately, two speaking slots at the convention, one for the Senator and one for the ex-president do not count as giving. Those count as taking, since the new Democratic Party under Obama is being anointed by the popular old Party under Bill Clinton, without Obama having to offer the Clintons anything in exchange.

is utter bullshit.

:rofl:

[Jakes Progress]

24. No one said Obama supporters

were terrible. I have some very good friends down at the local headquarters who are ardent, long time Obama supporters. I was talking about the mccain supporters here who are doing a very good job of playing Democrat here on Du and doing a very good job of making the less informed and more easily fooled members more and more anti-Hillary. There is nothing that Rove fears more than an Obama/Clinton ticket. If you consider that bullshit, then you are not well informed and you have been easily fooled.

[ProSense]

26. "I was talking about the mccain supporters here who are doing a very good job of playing Democrat"

Oh nonsense, that's just an excuse to hype the OP's BS.

That comment is about giving and taking is idiotic tripe.

[Metric System]

27. The OP posts BS and you post, what? Truth?

[ProSense]

28. Yes, the OP's

BS:

Barrack Obama needs to start giving. Unfortunately, two speaking slots at the convention, one for the Senator and one for the ex-president do not count as giving. Those count as taking, since the new Democratic Party under Obama is being anointed by the popular old Party under Bill Clinton, without Obama having to offer the Clintons anything in exchange.

:rofl:

[Jakes Progress]

41. The truth.

He can't handle the truth.

Silly grudges. He can handle. republican memes. He can handle. But the truth....nope.

[ProSense]

42. Truth

Hillary lost, ran a lousy campaign (record $31 million debt), and Obama doesn't owe her a thing.

I can handle that, can you?

[dailykoff]

46. And ran it for five months after she lost the nomination

in Iowa.

[Jakes Progress]

51. Attitudes like yours will

cost us the election.

Can you handle that? Or do you even care?

[ProSense]

54. You mean: If Obama doesn't pick, Hillary he will lose

is the right attitude?

Selective concern, that's what you're about.

[Jakes Progress]

59. Not what I said.

You either don't understand or you chose not to understand.

I truly doubt the number of hours you have spent campaigning for Obama in the last four weeks even comes close to the time I have. So I won't let you tell me that I have the wrong attitude. I won't let you misuse my words to play some freeper trick or further their goals.

The logic says you take the candidate with 48.1% of the Democratic vote and add the candidate wtih 48% of the vote and you get a ticket supported by 96.1% of the party. Why would you not want to do that? Why would you rather go with a lower chance of winning? Not wanting the Democratic candidate to have the best chance of winning is a stupid attitude. An attitude that you petty, personal, misguided little prejudices are more important than winning the white house is the kind of attitude that will lose the election.

Instead of trying to get our candidate elected you play keyboard warrior and write drivel about things like "selective concern". This is going to be a hard election to win. We don't need rock tossers. We need workers who are committed to getting Obama elected. Want to join us?

[ProSense]

65. No, but that was the OP's previous assertion

Freeper?

The logic says you take the candidate with 48.1% of the Democratic vote and add the candidate wtih 48% of the vote and you get a ticket supported by 96.1% of the party.

Speaking of faulty logic. Hillary doesn't have 48% of the party in her pocket.

The OP and you seem to believe that Obama must kowtow to the Clintons in order to appease a few people who can't get over the fact that she lost.

She did. Obama doesn't owe Hillary anything. Those people will have to decide for themselves whether they are going to support the Democratic candidate.

Hillary is not a bargaining chip. That's not how Obama is going to select his VP.

"Rock tossers" are the people still holding out support contingent on a bigger role for Hillary, some still wanting it to be even bigger than Obama's.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jakes Progress]

47. Again.

If you think it is nonsense that mccain supporters are here on DU trying to get the Obama neophytes all het up over Hillary with lies so that they will post nasty shit about Hillary to make the Hillary people mad at the Obama people, you are not well informed and you are easily fooled.

There is no difference between Clinton and Obama. Not in their policies, their politics, their strategies, their goals. Hillary and Barack know that is so. Those who actually understand what is going on know that. Those that don't are not well informed and are easily fooled.

[dailykoff]

56. Obama never talked about how proud he was to be running against a white woman.

My ears are still ringing from the whistle.

[Jakes Progress]

61. What the hell are you

talking about? Were you born yesterday? Do you have any idea what is at stake with this election? What has this got to do with beating mccain?

[dailykoff]

62. You said: "There is no difference between Clinton and Obama."

And you were wrong.

[Jakes Progress]

64. So you were

born yesterday. Happy birthday.

[dailykoff]

68. He also didn't make a point of mentioning that Bobby Kennedy was assassinated in June.

Hillary is probably a very nice mom but her Senate career hasn't been dazzling and she ran a disgusting presidential campaign.

[Bette Noir]

102. Hear, hear.

However slight, there would be a physical risk to Obama if Hillary were in the line of succession.

She needs to get over it, as do her supporters. Her only qualification for the presidency is that she slept with a president. That's not enough for me.

[Jakes Progress]

111. You fall for every

trick in Karl's book. Go back and examine the "stories" you are referencing. Try to see if there is any other way to interpret those things. Ways that don't paint the new picture of Hillary as monster. Ways that aren't trumpeted by the trolls on the blogs. Ways that jibe with the image of Hillary that we all loved just six months ago. I could do it for you, but it wouldn't be the same. Keep in mind that there is one group who will benefit from having Democrats hate Hillary. Just one group.

Hillary is an excellent mother. Her Senate career is no less undazzling than Obama's. They have both done a lot of sneaky, pandering, coldly calculated things to get the nomination. My preference would be for Hillary back in the Senate, unfettered by the crap attendant to running for national office. Obama has already back-tracked, sold out, and compromised on a number of items. It goes with the job of trying to win the election. That's not pretty, but if you don't know that politics is nasty and national politics is hell, then this election is going to be an eye-opener for you.

The only important thing now is to get Obama elected. Not because he is the mesiah or the chosen one, but because he will then be in a position to reverse the crap the republicans have been doing. I'm trying to help him get elected. I happen to think that Hillary would have done a better job. But I don't have to turn Barack into a monster or swallow stupid lies about him because I thought Hillary would do a better job. I think he can do the job fine. I hope he will do the job fine. So rather than keep trying to piss off all of the Hillary supporters with silly little stories about what a monster she is, try going after the republicans who are the real monsters. Try to imagine that your anger and media-created image of Hillary that you expound here actually does keep 10 ex-Hillary people from voting for Obama. Would that be a great accomplishment? How would that help? Suppose I were silly and easily offended and you managed to piss me off enough to stay home from the polls. Just what good for the country would that do? I'm not going to convince you that Hillary would be a better candidate than Barack. You are not going to convince me (or anyone) that Clinton is a fire-breathing monster. So why would you feel it necessary to try to piss off voters that Barack will need so badly in November? What is the point?

[Zhade]

25. Let me get this straight - you wished they'd used DECEIT to gain voters?

When did you become a Republican?

[McCamy Taylor]

31. Do you know how JFK became president? Politics is nasty business.

If you are squeamish, join a Church instead.

[ProSense]

32. Do you know how Hillary lost?

People hate that shit!

This is 2008.

[McCamy Taylor]

34. Pretty much the same way JFK won, actually.

:hide:

[dailykoff]

44. And the fairy tale universe keeps expanding..

Have you ever heard, seen or read a JFK speech? That's how he won, that and Jackie, neocon media lies (yes, they are lies) notwithstanding.

[McCamy Taylor]

78. He won with bribes in West Virginia against Humphrey and then dead men voting in Texas.

JFK was a rich man's son who was used to buying what he wanted.


However, right triumphed in that election, because Nixon was a terrible man, who had to be defeated at any cost, just like John McCain. Plus, Nixon cheats, just like Karl Rove (who learned to cheat from Nixon).

Everyone cheats in politics. There are no angels. Axelrod is no angel. Obama is no angel. Learn that now or learn that later.

[dailykoff]

91. Right, and putting a certain Texas senator on his ticket had NOTHING to do with it.

You're buying a load of neocon "we only do it because they do it" crap. Next you'll be spewing fairy tales about how JFK got us into Vietnam. :puke:

[27inCali]

38. all those new registered voters

that are improving prospects for D candidate across the board came for one reason:

Obama and ending the insincere, do what ever it takes campaigning style that Clinton used in the primary (it alienated a lot of people who went in with high opinions of her).

I think he's been giving pretty nicely, considering all that voter reg he's done on behalf of the party. It dovetails nicely with the good Dr.s hard work to rebuild the party as a truly national party.

What, is he supposed to kneal before Clinton and beg forgiveness for winning?

Sour grapes, dude.

can we start bashing McCain now?

[McCamy Taylor]

43. Obama 17535458, 48.1% vs. Clinton 17493836, 48.0%

[Jakes Progress]

63. Facts and Numbers?

We don't need no stinking facts and numbers? We got our msm memes to go by.

[RaleighNCDUer]

71. Which, as a poster above noted, is completely meaningless.

The numbers that matter are the literally MILLIONS of repukes who would turn out to vote against Hillary but are otherwise just so uninspired by McCain that they would rather stay home.

Even if that deluded 11% of Hillary voters stayed away - that 11% is out of her half of the democratic voters who turned out for the primaries, which was itself about 30% of all Democrats. That means that 11% is more like 5 1/2% of the voters who voted in the primaries, or about 1.75% of Democratic voters - a number that will be overwhelmed by the independents and crossover republicans who are fed up the the neocons.

So those pissy 1.75% can stay home - they won't be missed. Kowtowing to Hillary for their sake would cost us millions of independents who would NOT vote for Hillary, and bring out the fundies who think she (or Bill) is Satan's spawn.

Putting her on the ticket will cost us the election. Obama knows that. Therefore, it will not happen.

[Zhade]

35. You advocate debasing the political process further?

You endorse dishonesty?

Well, you *did* support clinton.

[McCamy Taylor]

39. No, actually, I supported Edwards, and then I supported civility.

That is why I never get angry over what happened this winter and spring, just bemused. I had nothing emotionally invested in either of the two remaining candidates. I used up all my anger over what the press did to Edwards.

And as for debasing the political process, you need to read Hunter S. Thompson to find out how debased the political process is all by itself.

[saltpoint]

40. This post makes Hawthorne's bio on Franklin Pierce look

realistic.

[bevoette]

45. This post makes my head hurt.

:wtf:

[saltpoint]

48. Take two blue pills and call me in the morning.

But not at 3:00 in the morning.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

49. More like Green Eyes and Ham.

[dailykoff]

52. You mean the Ham from Hope?

:rofl:

[dailykoff]

50. Let's see, eat my apples, where have we heard that before..

Oh yeah.

[Lena inRI]

83. Bwhahahahahah. . .touche dailykoff!

As I read through this thread, you're damn good with the retorts. . .and this reference to Eve, as in Adam and Eve, is so bull's-eye searing true. . .

let's see, another Eve allusion. . .

. . .the Three Faces of Eve. . .Joanne Woodward was great in that role. . .

Whatever. . .my only HOPE is that Team Obama and Senator Obama, IMHO, stick to the only important criteria for picking his VP:

trustworthy statesman/woman who will stand up to McCain without gutter politics


:kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick:

[bridgit]

57. Mohammed and the Mountain - If one cannot get one's own way, one must adjust to the inevitable...

The legend goes that when the founder of Islam was asked to give proofs of his teaching, he ordered Mount Safa to come to him. When the mountain did not comply, Mohammed raised his hands toward heaven and said, 'God is merciful. Had it obeyed my words, it would have fallen on us to our destruction. I will therefore go to the mountain and thank God that he has had mercy on a stiff-necked generation.'

[saltpoint]

60. Ted Stevens?! Ted Stevens!? Who said anything about Ted Stevens!?

[Prophet 451]

66. The 11% aren't pro-Hillary

If they were pro-Hillary, they would have recognised that Hillary threw her own share of mud during the primary and taken some notice of her endorsement. They aren't pro-Hillary, they just really hate Obama.

[elmoose]

70. yeppp...no.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[gmudem]

75. I can't wait til the convention is over and all this Hillary nonsense is over

She's not going to be the VP. She would be a disastrous choice and Obama knows it. Bill can't even bring himself to say he likes Obama. Hillary cares about nobody but herself and not only would she be a disaster electorally, but trying to govern with her would be a nightmare.

Come on August 29th!!!!

[farmboxer]

77. I think some of the extreme hate for Hillary should be directed

towards McCain for a change. How does electing McCain help "We the people"? Cutting off one's nose to spite one's face does not make sense. I can't stand the thought of four more years of Bush. I do know that some McCain supporters want to cause trouble between Obama supporters and Hillary supporters, it makes me sick to see some falling for this Republican right wing trick. Dems always find a way to lose an election. I will vote for Obama no matter who his VP is, anyone is better than McBush. Looks like Obama is finally going after McCain. You don't see him concentrating on hating Bill and Hillary Clinton. McCain is the enemy.

[pollo poco]

113. But...McCain's not A Witch

Hillary turned me into a newt.
Well...it got better.

Hillary's a witch if she floats. She's a witch if she sinks. Burn her.

How can McCain be the enemy? He's not even a witch.

He's a man. We all know even bad men are awesome. Very very awesome. And powerful women suck. They can make you take out the trash and stuff. Didn't you get the memo from the DU Tucker Carlson corps? As soon as they move out of their parents' basements, they're gonna tell their mommies off. In the mean time-there's Hillary.

Why would we attack a man, when we have a witch on hand?

I mean...DUH!

[McCamy Taylor]

79. I have found that the surest way to elicit hate speech at DU is to speak nicely of Clinton.

Since I recall the hate speech directed at dear old Hubert Humphrey between 1968 and 1972, I recognize its source, and I know that in a few years, people are going to look back and shake their heads and swear I was never part of that insanity.

To hear the hippies from the 60s speak now, none of them vilified Hubert Humphrey or caused his base of African-American and union voters to stay home or vote for Nixon in 1972 in utter disgust at the way the Democratic Party had treated a stalwart. No one participated in the pile on and verbal mud flinging. Everyone saw through the dirty tricks which Donald Segretiti and Pat Buchanan and Karl Rove orchestrated for Dick Nixon.

Except I watched and listened to them act like fools. I know that someone was doing and saying those things. Some of them were celebrities.

And I am watching and listening to a whole new generation of fools repeat the same mistakes. Fortunately, many of Clinton's supporters lived through that era and they learned from it, and they will not be distracted. The 11% are the exception. No fair mocking them when so many Obama supporters are falling for the same trick, even though they have been warned repeatedly.

[JohnnyLib2]

84. This speaks directly to my observation and memory of the past.

And then we got Nixon....

[bridgit]

96. I would that that were the simpler of perspectives. The stiff-necked hate speakers

their brittle, recurring, intransigent thoughts are lending gravitas instead to right-wing hate speakers & pundits when they contend the liberals have no intention of living up to their own creed. And it is that phoniness that has driven this current cycle to within poll margins far too slim. The resultant? Here at DU?

"Look! A mouse scampers to the corner with a fiber optic listening device feeding questions to John McCain!! Attack HRC, that mouse is an operative of hers!" "Jennifer Flowers!!" "Welcome to ignore" "YAWN n/t" "Barack doesn't have to kiss anyone's kiss. It's Barack's WH!!!!!!" Oh, well, I suppose that's important to discover...

Peering into DU must be a right-wing hate talkers wet dream. The remains, the crumbs of crumpled, drooled and bit upon donuts & sprinkles in a glass case smudged with finger and greasy nose prints.

DUer's need imo to check themselves, the world is watching. But for the rampant egos here on the left; should have been checking themselves all along. Stop the sniping, the snide hate speak. It's snaky, and unbecoming. As practiced here, it is not even so near to being so wrong as it is embarrassing. It discounts the charter, while lending aid & comfort to the opposition.

[McCamy Taylor]

80. It still isn't too late to read Hunter S. Thompson's book about how Nixon trashed the 1972 Dem

primary with his dirty tricks (see review here)

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/bn-review/note.asp?note=18649936

so that we do not repeat the mistakes. Just keep in mind that Thompson is playing camera, recording all the sordid CREEPY tricks without understanding them. He will later explain it all in the Watergate chapters of The Great Shark Hunt.

I prefer a little Democratic Unity to a lot of engineered Democratic discord, but hey, maybe some Democrats think it is more fun the 1972 way. I know that the press does.

[f the letter]

81. That's quite a stretch.

i like your posts very much generally, but are you seriously advocating intentionally meaningless "political theater?" This would do nobody any good.. if one was clueless enough to be pulled in by such a charade, then i don't think that this election is winnable and we should hold on to whatever ideals we can still reach.

[CampDem]

82. Well done, you write beautifully

K & R :hi:

[RTBerry]

86. For those who have responded negatively:

Why so much venom for merely suggesting that Obama be magnanimous in victory?

Were you not disgusted when, after his narrow *ahem* victory *ahem* in 2004, Bush acted as though he had won by a landslide and had won "political capital?" I suggest that the attitudes and practices of a street thug are not virtuous, and that we would do well to condemn such within our ranks.

One cannot gain true victory through becoming as one's enemy.

[Marrah_G]

87. Thank you for this post McCamy

It was a really good read, I'm just sorry you got so many negative responses.

[Honeycombe8]

88. That 11% is not going to decide the race. The 30% in the middle will.

They are independents, many of whom are former Republicans, and some of whom lean left.

Forget about that 11%. They will vote for who they vote for, if anyone. If they don't want to vote for Obama, nothing will force them to do so.

It's the 30% in the middle who can be legitimately convinced, though. And this seems to be who McCain and Obama are battling over.

Clinton is yesterday's news, IMO. I'd be happy for her to disappear from national politics. Obama is right to keep Bill and his sexual antics and temper tantrums far away from Obama's administration. That would only be a harmful distraction in an historically critical time for our country.

[Marrah_G]

89. Your post does not surprise me in the least

[Lucky 13]

95. There you Obama people go with numbers and facts again!!

Numbers and statistics do not apply to the all-knowing, all-powerful Hillary! Did you learn anything from the primaries?!

:rofl:

[Honeycombe8]

118. I was surprised to learn from TV Hillary supporters this wk that Hillary's voters grew in #...

that 18,000,000 she had in the primaries? NOW it's 20,000,000! I guess by the convention next week, it'll be 25,000,000!

Oh, and I am NOT surprised that they keep up the mantra that she won the popular vote in the primary (she didn't). And i LOVE it when they say, "Well, if that had been a Republican primary or the GE, SHE woulda won!" Totally disregarding the fact that IF the primary had counted votes differently, Obama would've run a different campaign! (and won again)

It's time to move on from Bushes and Clintons. The way they and their supporters have acted throughout the primary, and afterwards, is proof positive that I (and millions of others) do NOT want them running the country. Clinton actually said this week that McCain would be as good as Obama at dealing with climate change! Does THAT sound like something a Democrat would say? (The truth, BTW, is that McCain would NOT be good at dealing with global warming. He's better than other Repubs on the issue, but he STILL is not environmentally pro-active in the way that Dems are.)

[Balderdash]

90. If you read most of the replies in this thread

it will be plain to see why there are 11% or more Democrats who are still to angry to vote for the nominee. Some Obama supporters are foolish people and are not helping Obama at all but maybe they're not really trying to help Obama...

[specterderrida]

98. Most of the responses give credibility to the OP.

[ElboRuum]

106. How do you figure that?

Really, that's not possible. The OP taken on its own has NO real credibility. Any credibility that is perceived to have been given via the responses is a projection of your desire for them to have given it credibility.

The OP was a spin-fest that was almost laughable, and while I generally don't like the largely disrespectful tone of some of the responses, in many ways, one can certainly understand how something so laden with obvious intentional bias would generate a tone of disrespect.

Welcome to DU.

[specterderrida]

112. they are very similar to what the OP claims.

[RaleighNCDUer]

101. That is 11% of hillary voters from the primaries -

or @ 1.75% of all democrats. Less than the normal percentage that we lose in any election.

If they hate Obama that much, fuck em.

[specterderrida]

103. Add that to the other disenchanted voters and Obama has problems.

[RaleighNCDUer]

109. Lose 2% of Democrats, and gain 60% of independents

which are, you know, the single largest voting block in the country - more independents than either democrats or republicans.

Obama's a smart man. He can do the math.

It will not be Hillary.

[mopinko]

92. sigh

plonk

[redqueen]

107. My sentiments exactly.

Jeez Louise...

[Lucky 13]

93. All praise the magnanimous, beneficent Queen Hillary!

Joan of Arc? Seriously?

:rofl:

[bridgit]

97. Look! See! The Messiah approaches!!

What a fucking hoot! :spray:

[greguganus]

99. At least she wasn't called Lady Godiva. n/t

[dionysus]

100. the return of the Hillabong(tm)!!!

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[ElboRuum]

104. I will respectfully disagree...

...since very few have done that from the general feel of the responses... not disagree... just do so respectfully.

KO's one comment is the tell here:

"With the race between Obama and McCain in a statistical dead heat, this 11% will decide the race, and only Hillary can tell them how to vote."

Whatever I may think about this 11%, I think I am with KO on this one somewhat. Hillary is the only one who can tell them how to vote, if anyone can, which I doubt. Perhaps this 11% do harbor bitter feelings... these Clinton Democrats... are not waiting for more gifts from any Giving Tree. They view their "gifts" as corruption and yet have the nerve complain when they don't get them? How is Barack Obama going to "gift" these "loyal" Clinton supporters if they won't even follow HER entreaties in support of Obama?

Hillary has already thrown her support behind Obama, publicly and with grace. Obama has accepted that support, also publicly and with grace. So what is it that these 11%'ers are waiting for? If we accept the 11%ers are truly devoted to the idea that she's worthy of being their chosen candidate and de facto leadership, then I truly have no idea.

I have a different thought. Maybe these 11%ers have their own agenda. Maybe their support for Hillary has nothing to do with Hillary. Most who championed her cause during the primaries have processed their grief about her loss, moved on, and taken her lead of throwing their support behind Barack Obama. This 11% that has not, that has threatened to vote McCain, maybe they aren't Hillary supporters at all.

Maybe they're something else. I'll leave each to fashion their own theory as to what, as if such a thing was a worthwhile activity. Yet, I know most people can't help it, fashioning theories of machination being the political equivalent of a Sudoku puzzle. I just know that this 11% will NOT be assuaged by any Giving Tree-ish things that Obama can do, if Hillary's gestures weren't enough. I just know that the cannot be cajoled into voting for him, despite them taking any gifts he might provide.

[Beacool]

110. I loved your post!!!

How true:

"Watching Hillary Clinton give of herself will delight every Democrat who did not get sucked into the Hillary vs. Barack War. However, it is not going to convince any of her hard core 11% that they should like Barack Obama. In order to accomplish that, Barack Obama needs to start giving."

:hi:

[tomp]

114. so tireless, so tiresome. nt

[BlueIdaho]

115. Hillary Clinton is a political animal - no more and no less.

And Bill Clinton gave us George Bush by playing hide the cigar with a White House intern.

[Erin Elizabeth]

116. I can't believe the NERVE of Obama

winning the primary like that.

I mean, what an ASSHOLE. And then on top of that, he expects to be named the nominee at the convention? What the FUCK, dude? Who does he think he is, anyway?

I say you line up that 11% of people who are still pissed about this upstart little Senator having the balls to beat her, line them all up at the convention, have them drop their drawers and DEMAND that he PERSONALLY kiss every one of them on one ass cheek. Two if he wants them to vote for him ENTHUSIASTICALLY instead of sort of barely tapping the touch screen. If he wants them to really SLAM that little pen onto his name, he can smooch both ass cheeks of EVERY one of the 11%. On live national TV. International feeds.

And he better mean the smooches, too. Both lips. Not just barely touching, but really GRABBING the ass cheekery and mashing his lips into them, you know?

Then maybe he can approach Hillary and that 11% on his knees, across uncooked rice strewn all over the stage (inspect him for knee pads beforehand), and have him do some impromptu groveling if the ass cheek kissing was not completely to their liking.

"I don't know," says one of the 11%, "his lips are too purple. Which means he hates women. I am not convinced enough to vote for him. Humph."

Then force him to sing this duet a capella with Hillary on stage:

Anything you can do,
I can do better.
I can do anything
Better than you.

No, you can't.
Yes, I can. No, you can't.
Yes, I can. No, you can't.
Yes, I can,
Yes, I can!

Anything you can be
I can be greater.
Sooner or later,
I'm greater than you.

No, you're not. Yes, I am.
No, you're not. Yes, I am.
No, you're NOT!. Yes, I am.
Yes, I am!

I can shoot a partridge
With a single cartridge.
I can get a sparrow
With a bow and arrow.
I can live on bread and cheese.
And only on that?
Yes.
So can a rat!
Any note you can reach
I can go higher.
I can sing anything
Higher than you.
No, you can't. (High)
Yes, I can. (Higher) No, you can't. (Higher)
Yes, I can. (Higher) No, you can't. (Higher)
Yes, I can. (Higher) No, you can't. (Higher)
Yes, I can. (Higher) No, you can't. (Higher)
Yes, I CAN! (Highest)

Anything you can buy
I can buy cheaper.
I can buy anything
Cheaper than you.

Fifty cents?
Forty cents! Thirty cents?
Twenty cents! No, you can't!
Yes, I can,
Yes, I can!
Anything you can say
I can say softer.
I can say anything
Softer than you.
No, you can't. (Softly)
Yes, I can. (Softer) No, you can't. (Softer)
Yes, I can. (Softer) No, you can't. (Softer)
Yes, I can. (Softer)
YES, I CAN! (Full volume)
I can drink my liquor
Faster than a flicker.
I can drink it quicker
And get even sicker!
I can open any safe.
Without bein' caught?
Sure.
That's what I thought--
you crook!
Any note you can hold
I can hold longer.
I can hold any note
Longer than you.

No, you can't.
Yes, I can No, you can't.
Yes, I can No, you can't.
Yes, I can
Yes, I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I No, you C-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-N'T--
CA-A-A-A-N! (Cough, cough!)
Yes, you ca-a-a-an!

Anything you can wear
I can wear better.
In what you wear
I'd look better than you.
In my coat?
In your vest! In my shoes?
In your hat! No, you can't!
Yes, I can
Yes, I CAN!
Anything you say
I can say faster.
I can say anything
Faster than you.
No, you can't. (Fast)
Yes, I can. (Faster) No, you can't. (Faster)
Yes, I can. (Faster) Noyoucan't. (Faster)
YesIcan! (Fastest)
I can jump a hurdle.
I can wear a girdle.
I can knit a sweater.
I can fill it better!
I can do most anything!
Can you bake a pie? No.
Neither can I.
Anything you can sing
I can sing sweeter.
I can sing anything
Sweeter than you.
No, you can't. (Sweetly)
Yes, I can. (Sweeter) No, you can't. (Sweeter)
Yes, I can. (Sweeter) No, you can't. (Sweeter)
Yes, I can. (Sweeter) No, you can't, can't, can't (sweeter)
Yes, I can, can, can (Sugary)

Yes, I can! No, you can't!


Oh it's gonna be an interesting convention this year, right? With that TAKER Obama!

(Do I need the sarcasm tag or are we all ok without it?)

[beac]

117. Anything I could've said,

I couldn't have said it better.

:rofl:

No, I couldn't!



Brava!

[mod mom]

119. If she is so beloved by her throngs of followers why is she still in debt (just under $24 Million):

August 21, 2008
Disclosure reports show Clinton still deeply in debt
Posted: 07:00 PM ET

From CNN's Alexander Mooney and Robert Yoon, Extra

Clinton is still carrying a sizeable campaign debt.

(CNN) — Well over two months have passed since Hillary Clinton formally abandoned her White House bid, but newly-released Federal Election Commission reports show the New York senator has made little headway in paying off her sizeable campaign debt.

According to an FEC report filed Wednesday, Clinton's debt as of the end of July stood at just under $24 million — a decrease of only $1.2 million since the end of June. More than $13 million of that total is owed to the New York senator herself, while close to $11 million is owed to individual vendors. Clinton has suggested she is not seeking to pay back the money she owes herself.

The report also shows Clinton was only able to raise $2 million in the month of July — down from close to $3 million in June. By comparison, Barack Obama raised over $50 million for his White House bid in the same time period.

The report comes as some high-profile Clinton backers have expressed disappointment Obama has not made more of an effort to help his onetime rival retire her campaign debt.

-snip

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/21/disclosure-repots-show-clinton-still-deeply-in-debt/