NEWSFLASH: The primaries are fucking over!

[Prophet 451]

Look, I'm not hugely opposed to a pick of Hillary for VP. I'd question the wisdom but I'd be ok with that choice. What we do NOT need is Hillary's supporters trying to force her on to the ticket. All day, we've had little else but "Hillary for VP" threads, mostly use the same dubious numbers, mostly guarenteeing a loss if Obama doesn't make her VP.

18 million votes (and that number is highly questionable) is irrelevant because SHE DIDN'T WIN. Your candidate lost. Sorry for you and yeah, some of the stuff said about her was way out of line but you are not owed anything for those votes. When you predict loss for the Democratic ticket unless it has Hillary on it, what we hear is an implicit threat to stay home unless your collective asses (assi?) are kissed to your satisfaction. This election is not about you. It is not about rewarding you for voting because that's your civic duty anyway. It is not about Senator Clinton. It is about the good of the nation and the good of the world. If you can't put your petty hurt feelings that your candidate lost a perfectly fair process aside for the good of the world, if you place your own satisfaction above the Lord alone knows how many will die if Obama doesn't win, you fucking deserve President McCain.

[cliffordu]

1. What you said.

[27inCali]

3. yeah, what he said.

[BlooInBloo]

18. What you all said.

[SwampG8r]

62. fuckin a right

[elmoose]

2. yah

[jobycom]

4. Actually, I've seen a lot more Obama supporters saying we need Clinton.

:shrug:

[LooseWilly]

37. I haven't.

I see plenty of Obama supporters, like me, not hugely averse to the idea. Unfortunately, she decided to burn a lot of bridges during the primaries. Not that I blame her... whether she has doubts about him, thinks herself better qualified, or just plain thinks she wants it more... she had to either accept that she was losing the nice-person race and let it ride... or abandon the nice-person race and turn it into something else.
She turned it into something else.
Politically, it was worth a shot.
In the process though, I think she shot herself in the metaphorical foot as far as the VP thing goes.

Maybe next time... or the time after... or whatever.

If Obama and his people decide they can make lemonade out of choosing her as VP, then more power to them. I wouldn't mind her in the slot... but I wouldn't make that call personally...

[jobycom]

48. Scan through GD:P, you'll see

there have been a lot of "I can't believe I'm saying this, but I think Clinton should be VP posts." Frankly, most ardent Clinton supporters have been driven away from here, making DU even less representative of the party than before.

As for Clinton burning bridges, she didn't do anything to him that he didn't do first. They both attacked, they both played hardball. The media played up her attacks in a different way, and kept pretending Obama was positive, even when he was mocking her as "Annie Oakley" and the "senator from Punjab" and all. Neither one crossed the line, really, but neither one burned any bridges. He's been in politics long enough to know a hardball campaign from a really dirty one, and even though the media created the image of a dirty campaign, it wasn't. He and she are fine.

I still think she's going to be his pick. Wouldn't bet on it, I'm not that sure, but I think she's got the edge. I know his polling numbers show that she's the best choice, because I've talked to a few strategists who work with the internal polling numbers (not the popularized numbers the media releases), and I know what they show. She's his best chance, but not his only chance. So it's up to him. But if his main goal is winning--and it has been so far--then he's got to give her more weight than anyone else.

We'll know soon enough. Heck, we might know before I finish typing this, though I have a feeling he's waiting for the Olympics to end so he doesn't get accused of overshadowing any of the athletes. But maybe sooner. Whoever it is, should be fine.

[jonestonesusa]

51. One think Obama didn't do...

I don't think he ever made a stump speech appealing to "hardworking Americans, black Americans," or "hardworking Americans, male Americans." And there's a few other things too...

[jobycom]

64. I strongly disagree with that. Passionately, in fact. But

the primaries are over, so no point in rehashing. My point wasn't to cast blame, it was only to point out that Obama and Clinton both played hardball, and Obama is experienced enough to know the difference between a hard campaign and something he should hold a grudge over.

[MadMaddie]

86. That's because he was busy talking to ALL Americans!

[sniffa]

66. Yeah, quite a few are by the same DUer(s) too

I think it's called astroturfing.

[Bette Noir]

89. Check your meds.

[DailyGrind51]

57. you didn't hear the entire sentence, "...like we need hemaroids!"

[redqueen]

59. I haven't. (nt)

[monomach]

5. Hell yes! nt

[inthebrain]

6. Obama picking Hillary has nothing to do with her being owed anyting

Vet the "three front runners" that have been mentioned.

Biden and Kaine will literally reek havock amongst the pro choice contingency in this party. Sorry, on a national level that's a lot of people staying home on election night. This party needs those voters. You probably stand to lose more on that one issue alone than "smited" Hillary voters. That's the party base getting fucked really hard. ANd speaking of people who will die under McCain, if those guys get their way on partial birth abortion the ammount of women that will die will be just as bad.

Bayh, co wrote the IWR. That's not gonna fly well with a guy who wants to end it.

Hillary seems to have the least baggage.

Yeah, the primary wars are over. If Hillary is the pick she may be our best bet at landing the White House.

And I'm verry far from a fan of hers.

As a matter of fact, my preference would be Kooch.

[Prophet 451]

10. Kaine isn't pro-life

What Kaine has said is that he is personally opposed to abortion but doesn't feel it's his place to force that opinion on anyone. In other words, whatever his personal feelings, he votes pro-choice. That's the exact same position as John Kerry. Bayh, fair point.

Hillary had roughly half the nation saying they wouldn't vote for her before she even started campaigning and that number hasn't changed much. I'll be the first to agree that most of those negatives aren't Hillary's fault but that's a fuck-load of baggage right there.

Again, I'm not hugely opposed to Hillary as a VP choice and there is a reasonable arguement to be made for her (although I'd prefer Kooch as well) but the overwhelming majority of threads we've seen today haven't made that arguement. They've used the same bogus numbers, the same implied threats and overhwelmingly, they smack of a sense of entitlement.

[inthebrain]

Kaine is opposed to partial birth abortion

and wants a ban. Partial Birth Abortion saves the life of the mother when it is compromised by the fetus. It is a life saving procedure.

Promote abstinence; ban partial-birth abortion
I will reduce abortion in Virginia by enforcing current Virginia restrictions, passing an enforceable ban on partial-birth abortion, ensuring women's access to health care (including legal contraception), and promoting abstinence-focused education and adoption. We should reduce abortion in this manner, rather than by criminalizing women and doctors.
Source: Campaign website www.kaine2005.org, "Issues" Nov 8, 2005

I have a faith-based opposition to abortion
I have a faith-based opposition to abortion. As governor, I will work in good faith to reduce abortions by:
Enforcing the current Virginia restrictions on abortion and passing an enforceable ban on partial birth abortion that protects the life and health of the mother;
Fighting teen pregnancy through abstinence-focused education;
Ensuring women's access to health care (including legal contraception) and economic opportunity; and
Promoting adoption as an alternative for women facing unwanted pregnancies.
Too often politicians are interested in scoring political points, rather than in reducing the number of abortions. Many of the legislative proposals introduced in the General Assembly, like the ones to require unnecessary building standards for doctor's offices that perform abortions, are just political grandstanding. They encourage division and lawsuits rather than contributing to the goal of reducing abortions.
Source: Campaign website www.kaine2005.org, "Issues" Nov 8, 2005

http://www.ontheissues.org/Governor/Tim_Kaine_Abortion.htm

[Prophet 451]

15. OK, that's new on me

Thanks for that, I'll have to rethink on Kaine.

[LostinVA]

45. He's also anti gay rights, and "partial-birth abortion" is an anti choice codeword

There's no such procedure.

I voted for him as Gov, but wouldn't as VP.

[ruggerson]

80. These people don't give a shit about gay rights

[Prophet 451]

82. OK, I was wrong about Kaine

Having had a proper look at his positions, I have to withdraw my "meh" on him and substitute a "hell, no".

[monomach]

14. Neither is Biden, for that matter.

He's anti-late term and anti-public funding. That's most definitely not ideal, but that's hardly anti-choice.

[inthebrain]

17. Anti choice for those that need that life saving procedure

or for poor disadvantaged women that have been raped.

It's a landmine.

[flamingdem]

27. Glad to hear that, he seems good otherwise nt

[Zhade]

12. Polls show a majority of *registered voters* do not want her on his ticket.

NT!

[inthebrain]

16. Which Polls?

Are they the same ones that have McCain up by five points over Obama today?

[americanstranger]

22. Hillary? The least baggage?

This is a cruel joke, right?

The GOP has such a dossier on Clinton, it makes the charges they're lobbing at Obama look like a friggin' tea party.

And don't bet for a second that they won't hesitate to tie Lewinsky and impeachment, Rose Law Firm, Travelgate, her failed 'Hillarycare' and every other Clinton smear from the last 16 years around her - and by extension, Obama's - neck.

And that's not even bringing up what's gone on with Bill since he left office. I know Hillary is not Bill, but she's damn sure close enough for the mouth-breathing knuckle-draggers.

Least baggage. My ass.

- as

[cascadiance]

52. Biden, Bayh, and Kain seem to me to be useless foils to justify Hillary

I'd much prefer more consideration being given folks like Richardson, Clark, and even Feingold than the array of folks that don't really add much to the ticket.

[lojasmo]

7. Cosigned.

[emilyg]

8. Feel better?

[Prophet 451]

11. Yes actually. Thanks for asking. n/t

[progressivebydesign]

9. That's an interesting post... for sure..

"Sorry for you and yeah, some of the stuff said about her was way out of line but you are not owed anything for those votes." First, I really didn't enjoy being called a old whore, hag, bitch, and worse here on DU, because I supported Hillary. After being here for 7 years, that was how I was treated. So it wasn't just the stuff about her, as you put it, that has caused such animosity toward Obama and his supporters.

As far as not being owed anything for the votes... oh, did someone say that? Because I would think that anyone of even average intelligence could figure out that if you had a primary candidate that actually got more popular votes than your nominee, it's not about OWING anything -- it's about making sure you capture all of those votes when you run up against a faux-populist like McCain, who people think is an independent. If I had a VP choice that was polling consistently ahead of both Obama and McCain in crucial states, then I'd damn well expect that she wouldn't be passed over. But then again.. the Democratic Party has this fear of success thing.

Oh, and for the record. I was a staunch Hillary supporter, but when she dropped out and asked her supporters to move to Obama, I did -- willingly and happily, because I will do whatever it takes to defeat the Republicans. And that includes Hillary on the ticket. Did the original Obama supporters REALLLY believe that this was going to be any different than Gore or Kerry? The media ALWAYS does the same thing every time (AP is the worst), they prop up one primary candidate, and immediately turn on him when he gets the nod. They help promote someone, then delight in ripping him to shreds. I mean.. where did all those fawning stories about Obama go? Now all we see are fawning McCain stories, and breathless coverage of every nasty comment McCranky makes about Obama.

[Prophet 451]

13. I'm sorry you were insulted as well

I'll say that right off the bat, I don't think the insults were fair or necessary, I don't think I made any of them and I'm sorry you got them hurled at you.

The arguement that Hillary got more popular votes is a myth. It relies on Enron style accounting that gives Hillary every vote from the disputed primaries, doesn't give Obama a single vote and doesn't count a single vote from the caucuses. It's the same dodgy numbers that led to the "18 million votes" myth.

Now, there is a reasonable arguement for picking Hillary as VP but overwhelmingly, the threads here (and I'm not talking about the general public, I'm talking about the political junkies that post here) haven't made them. They've relied on the same bogus numbers, the same implied threats and yes, they smack of entitlement and the notion that they are owed something. I've said from the beginning that I'm not violently opposed to an Obama/Hillary ticket but I am opposed to Hillary's die-hard supporters screaming "the sky will fall if she's not on the ticket".

[inthebrain]

20. I undersatnd where you're coming from

totally.

I'm not exactly crazy about Obama either. The same boat with Hillary

The other guys mentioned as running mate are just worse on policy than Hillary. I can't imagine any Democratic presidential nominee picking them unless he REALLY wants to upset the base. People don't win elections by upsetting the base like that.

I think the damage is less with Hillary is all.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LostinVA]

42. Good post!!!

I was called all that AND a racist several times.

[PresidentObama]

19. Yawn n/t

[Prophet 451]

21. So why bother responding? n/t

[DarthDem]

25. Great Post!!

Really adds to the substance of the discussion. Thanks!

[cboy4]

23. I've never seen winners so bitter. It's unbelievable.

:wow:

[Lilith Velkor]

54. I have.

The Republicans in 2004, after they won everything.

[dkf]

26. Did you see madfloridian's post that superdelegates were being harrassed about voting for Hillary?

They want the supers to throw it to Hillary at the convention. Damn she has created some crazies.

[Prophet 451]

29. I didn't see that

I can easily believe it though. No disrespect to Hillary, she can no more control all her supporters than Obama can but some of her supporters are, well, I don't want to say "loony"... Actually, yeah, I really do.

[dkf]

30. Here ya go...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6682590

[Prophet 451]

31. Cheers n/t

[Bluenorthwest]

47. You know, let's be honest for just a second here

If I gave any weight at all to things said by 'some of the supporters' of our nominee, I'd really not be voting for him at all, you know? During the Primary cycle, like it or not, Obama 'supporters' posted some of the most vicious ant-gay crap I have ever seen anywhere. That is the fact. Those people are not Obama any more than the loonies are Hillary. For you to be mining this connection at this point in the process is pointless. It makes you one of them. The flip side of the loony maybe, but still the same divisive coin...you might as well be a PUMA yourself, in my book.
Equating supporters to the candidates is unfair, and Obama fares just as poorly with that standard as any candidate from any Party. I read crap posted by so called 'supporters' that I will not even repeat for the sake of argument it was so vile. I did not confuse those folk with Barack, and in fact I assumed most of them were provacatures, not supporters of Obama.
So maybe I'll just change to the way of the Obama supporter and shape my opinion about the nominee according to the behavior of his worst self annointed boosters? That is what you are doing. Is that the 'new politics'?

[Prophet 451]

74. Huh?

Sorry, I thought I'd been fairly explicit about saying that these "supporters" (and yes, Obama has them too) were beyond the control of the candidate and, by extension, that the candidate shouldn't be equated with them.

[Erin Elizabeth]

76. If the shoe fits and all.

[goletian]

28. k n r - nt

[BzaDem]

32. Who exactly do you think you are talking to?

If you are talking to people who might actually read your post, all of them are voting for Obama anyway. The reason that some people here want Hillary to be VP is so that the people that --don't-- belong to DU who are loyal to Clinton come on board. DU posters aren't threatening not to vote for Obama -- they are simply pointing out what to any objective person would be obvious: a certain number of people (not on this board) probably won't vote for Obama unless Hillary is on the ticket, and that number is at least sizable enough to consider in the VP selection process.

And talking about how we deserve President McCain if there are voters who wouldn't vote for Obama without Hillary is a pretty weak argument. That same argument would be made if Obama lost for any reason. Candidates still actually try to win (and make decisions in accordance with that goal), even if the people deserve the other guy if they vote for him.

If you actually think that Clinton would be a net drag on the ticket, that would be a very good reason not to have her on the ticket. But if your idea to solve this problem is to lecture people who aren't going to read your post and wouldn't care what you had to say even if they did, don't be surprised if you aren't taken very seriously.

[Prophet 451]

33. I'm ranting at the world in general

Like many posts here, I'm screaming into the abyss.

[BzaDem]

34. Well I do agree that anyone who doesn't vote for Obama without Hillary does deserve McCain.

I just don't think that changes the fact that such people do exist (Obama is not doing nearly well enough among Democrats in the polls as he needs to be doing). I was hoping that Democratic support for him would approach 2000/2004 levels after he won the nomination (or soon after), and I hope that support will rise even if he doesn't put Hillary on the ticket, but I'm not so sure it will happen otherwise.

[Prophet 451]

35. I don't think she'd be much of a factor

I'll agree that Obama's lack of support is troubling though.

[JCMach1]

36. What we need is Obama and Obama supporters to realize

he needs her on the ticket to heal a divided party after a divisive primary.

While I don't personally threaten to stay home, I have heard many good Democrats who supported Hillary say they would do just that: stay home.

Sure, it can be ignored... but do so only at the risk on not uniting the party and gaining the WH.

[moriah]

38. Yes, she lost. She fucking lost. She was slaughered, killed, decimated, demolished.

Feel better?

Don't get me wrong. I've said several times today that I really don't think she should be VP. There are many, many reasons I feel this way. Some of them are obvious -- she has major liabilities, she said some really horrible things in the primaries that have already come around to bite us in the ass, and Republicans froth at the mouth anytime her name is mentioned.

There are other, more subtle reasons, too.

With her as VP there would be questions about a "co-presidency".

She could accomplish more in the Senate than she could as VP.

She'll be a great have a candidate for 2016 (God forbid the candidate be needed in 2012, that's something I really don't care to contemplate).

I don't think it suits her character to be second in command -- she would hate it.

Women shouldn't have to settle for the first female VP.

She can be a better surrogate for Obama, able to attack McCain without besmirching Obama's character.

And many more....

---------

I love my Hillary. I am still a Hillary supporter, in the sense that I support her in whatever she decides to do now as long as it promotes getting a Democrat in the White House. But I don't think she would be a good VP.

So please, don't paint all Hillary supporters with the same brush. I don't know if those posting those "the sky is falling" messages saying Barack HAS to have Hillary to win are made by Hillary supporters or not. But at least this Hillary supporter doesn't feel that way. I cast my vote for Hillary in the primary with pride. I will cast my vote for Obama in the general with pride as well, regardless of who is his VP (well, as long as it isn't Lieberman, and fortunately I think pigs will fly first.)

[Prophet 451]

90. I think Lieberman can be safely ruled out

I'm still hoping that McCain picks Lieberman as his VP. OK, he'd pick up a few independants but his base would desert him in droves.

Thank you for being graceful. I actually think Hillary would make a great Sec of Health since healthcare is her strong point but I can also see her becoming a stalwart of the Senate.

[mtnester]

39. Back at you

[Orsino]

40. Almost.

They're over when there's a nominee and running mate.

[LostinVA]

41. Let you without sin cast the first stone

Oh, the irony.

[Prophet 451]

91. Hey, I AM without sin

My faith (Luciferian Satanism) doesn't have sins in the usual sense so I don't have any :)

[Marrah_G]

43. Many of the Hillary for VP threads have come from very avid Obama supporters

Now since you can't get over the primaries and are being such a {edited}, I'm sending you off to the land of ignore with the rest of the {edited}.

[TexasObserver]

44. There is not a single indicator that he would choose Hillary.

She and Bill are distractions. Either they get behind the ticket and actually work hard to get a Democrat elected, or they don't. So far, they've done more harm than good the past two months, so that's why she has no chance to be on Obama's ticket.

[elana i am]

46. no they're not

http://www.shns.com/shns/g_index2.cfm?action=detail&pk=HILLARYTACTICS-08-19-08

[Beacool]

49. The primaries are over and no one told us??????????

Damn!!!!

:eyes:

[azmouse]

50. I couldn't agree with you more.

[snooper2]

53. Oh Bullshit it's over..

I was out front with the dog this morning before going to work and some couple was walking down a side street banging pots and pans :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[truebrit71]

55. Fully agreed!

As Bill once said, you fall in love with your candidate, you marry the nominee....

[pajamamama]

56. The nature of power ...

You say: "Hillary's supporters (are) trying to force her on to the ticket." Well, I can't blame them--what's the point of having power if you can't use it. Obama can probably win whatever VP he chooses, but IMO Hillary is the only pick that GUARANTEES victory. It's sad, but true.

[wowimthere]

58. Amen! Look Obama cares about the same things Hillary does... stop the drama and vote for Obama!

[JVS]

60. A proposal: whenever anyone see an "implicit threat to stay home" click ignore.

If the whole board ignores them, they might go away.

[redqueen]

61. That's a good idea... but there are people I like saying that stuipdass shit.

:(

[JVS]

63. That's a sacrifice we need to be willing to make.

On the bright side, in a few days we'll know the vp pick and can remove people from ignore on a probationary basis.

[inna]

65. -1 n/t

[sniffa]

68. +1

[Prophet 451]

79. +D12A

Are we talking politics or playing D&D?

[RainDog]

67. her puma supporters could only get a turnout of 200 ppl.

she no longer controls 18 million votes. to claim that she does now is a joke.

[specterderrida]

70. show me who claimed she "controlled" 18 m. votes as you claim.

[RainDog]

71. the op

[specterderrida]

84. I did not read it that way. Peace

[butterfly77]

69. Thanks...

you said it better than I could...and the some of the so called 18 million voters were republicons playing limbaugh's game and some of them had buyers remorse..

[ullad]

72. Comments like these got me banned from a board.

I toally agree with this poster. Can't let it go? They have to get over it already!

[ampad]

73. Oh hell yea

Thanks K&R

[Erin Elizabeth]

75. I was your 42nd recommend.

I'm just wanting him to announce already so all this Hillary bullshit will end.

[Prophet 451]

77. Cheers Dude!

EDIT: Whoops! Make that Dudette.

[Canuckistanian]

78. Damn right

That is about the clearest statement I've read about the Clinton LOSS.

I mean, where does it end?

For God's sake, WHERE?

Do they WANT McCain and another four years of Bush surrogates, acolytes, toadies and arselickers??

Gie yer heads a shake, Hillbots.

[question everything]

81. Yes, the primaries are over and the VP search is on

and Hillary is as good a candidate as any of them, so what is your problem?

Why is it OK to push the candidacy of Biden and not of Hillary?

For the record, I supported her but do not think that she should be the VP, for various reasons.

So if you disagree with the ones who call for her to be the VP, disagree on the merits - if you are capable.

[Prophet 451]

83. Missed my point

As I've said before, I'm not hugely opposed to Hillary as VP. I don't think she'd be the best choice but she's a long way from the worst one. What I am opposed to is the attitude presented by many of her supporters that "she came in second so surely she gets the VP slot and I'll make threats of impending doom if she doesn't". No, no-one is using those words but the attitude is there nonetheless.

[ruggerson]

85. What you said was "All day, we've had little else but "Hillary for VP" threads"

and attributing them to "Hillary supporters."

I can think of about five or six of these threads yesterday, ALL started by primary Obama supporters.

I supported Hillary in the primary and I'd rather have Biden or Schweitzer as Veep.

Your OP succeeds at nothing but promoting more division.

[guruoo]

87. Thanks for stirring the shit again, genius. n/t

[2Design]

88. I am tired of the media saying they will vote repub if she is not there

if they are that dim witted, then they deserve what they get and if they think mcsame is equaled to her then we don't need her these voters are idiots - anyone who votes for mcsame or any republican hates the usa and wants it to continue on its failure path set by Reagan, Bush I, Bush II and any repubs in congress like strom and jesse and the rest o the idiots like rush and ann coulter and oreilly, and hannity and of course pat robertson and the western moutnains of virginia with the rest of o the rw nuts

[RagAss]

92. Great Post.... It's on the brink of Pagan Idolatry !