Am I the only one who thinks McCain's war record should be left alone?

[PresidentObama]

I'm noticing Democrats jumping on the bandwagon of posting stuff from groups like "Vietnam Vets Against John McCain"

You remove one word, and replace Kerry...and we're doing the EXACT same thing as them.

Some would say that's karma, I say it's bullshit.

You don't attack them for going that low, claim you're endorsing the politician who wants to end that kind of low politics that flood our system in Washington, and then embrace the Swift Boat attacks against a Republican.

It's the same kind of low attacks, from the same type of groups against John Kerry. And yes, with many of the SAME people.

McCain just gave the Democrats a golden attack talking point.

The seven houses thing. His comments on not knowing many houses he has, and claiming you're rich if you have 5 million or more.

It's time to hold his feet to the fire.

I'm not about to tarnish his war record, like they did Kerry in 2004.

Let's debate him on the issues, and compare his economic record to Bush's and question his judgment in claiming the economy is making great progress and that those making less than 5 million are part of the middle class.

He doesn't get it. Let's attack him over that.

Not Vietnam.

EDIT: I do think his treatment of POW/MIA's and veterans in the U.S. Senate is fair game.

[movonne]

1. No you are not the only one..

[specterderrida]

64. leave his war record alone.

[TwilightGardener]

66. No.

[Mz Pip]

2. By the Democrats, most definitely

but if some disgruntled Republicans want to bring up their concerns that's up to them. Let them eat their own.

[PresidentObama]

5. Exactly. Let the Republicans eat their own. We don't need to be tied to something this low.

[uponit7771]

3. Of course not, but I think it SHOULD be on the table sence McSame did NOT speak out forcefully

...against the swift boating of Kerry.

McSames war record is horrid compared to Kerry's, I just found out about the 30 propaganda videos...no wonder they guy stayed in Nam for a while.

I don't see HOW anyone could think about voting for McSame

[PresidentObama]

10. If you're ok with this, you're a pretty low person. Just saying.

The logic that two wrongs make a right is ALWAYS wrong.

[uponit7771]

77. Who said it was wrong? You?....

[Avalux]

4. McCain is running on his war record. It's all he has.

He uses his POW status as an excuse for lying and cheating and he talks about it every chance he gets for sympathy.

It is defintely NOT off limits.

[PresidentObama]

8. Many said the same thing about Kerry in 2004, so I guess in your logic...he was fair game?

Bullshit.

[Avalux]

14. Kerry was not running on his time in the military. n/t

[atreides1]

17. Kerry wasn't running on his war record, was he

And as you pointed out:

"Many said the same thing about Kerry in 2004"

McCain is using his military record on his own, as proof that he can do a better job as CinC.

[ProSense]

21. Know what's bullshit: McCain doesn't seem to mind

aligning himself with groups who attack other Veterans.

Lieberman and Graham are also on the board.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

Did Kerry respond to every attack with "I was in Vietnam"?

[verges]

65. The Swiftboaters flat out lied.

As long as the truth is told about McCain, it's fair game. Being a POW does NOT qualify anyone for elective office.

[leftynyc]

He's even using his POW experience

to fight back on the "how many houses do you own" argument. I normally would agree to keep it off limits but if he's going to use it like a blungeon (sp?) against Sen Obama, all bets are off.

[Cosmocat]

63. I was with the OP up until the last month ...

I was very much of the mind that McCains' service should be off limits, but ...

1) As noted, he is falling back heavily on his war status ... That ALONE would not be enough to raise LEGIT negative points about it ... BUT ...
2) He had pledged to run a high minded campaign ... He has not, he has been running a Rovelike infantile negative campaign that if it is not responsed to IN KIND WILL beat you, still, not enough, EXCEPT ...
3) There is now a very clear, repeated tendency for him to hide behind his POW status ... From the reason for his "failed marriage" to forgetting how many houses Cindy has to his lifeline during the Saddleback debate ...

IMO, if he is going to hide behind it, then it is fair game ...

[ProSense]

6. Hit him with any and everything that's

appropriate

[PresidentObama]

15. So when they hit Kerry with it, was it appropriate?

[ProSense]

19. Did Kerry support torture?

Are you being intentionally obtuse?

[blm]

57. They LIED about Kerry's record in Vietnam. Nothing wrong with noting the TRUTH about Mccain's

service that showed he was immature and endangered his crewmates. He was NOT a leader. Kerry's record showed everyone saw him as a leader who would get his crew back safely. So GOPs HAD to create a narrative about Kerry that absolutely never existed prior to his running for president. Big difference.

[beachmom]

75. Did you go to the link? It is not an attack on McCain's military service.

It says that according to Bush's now definition of torture, John McCain was NOT tortured in Vietnam. It was enhanced interrogation technique. Not only that, McCain caved to Bush on the military tribunal bill, and thereby voted for torture. That actually is a policy attack, and uses what happened to McCain, which by the way was TORTURE, as an illustration of how far from human rights and common decency the Bush administration, and McCain with them, has gone.

[tekisui]

7. I think his PTSD is fair game.

And, I think it is fair game to point out when he plays the "POW card". I really don't care about his service time. It was 40 years ago. But, i do consider it just desserts. If a group is going to question his service, I can't stop them.

[Seen the light]

9. It's not smart politically to attack him on his war record

He has dozens of other things to attack him on, why attack him on something that many find almost sancrosanct like military service?

[atreides1]

11. Probably not

One of the issues is the GWOT, and he has been using his military record to show his experience and why he would be better the Obama at "fighting" the GWOT.

So, if he wants to use his military record to show his experience then it's fair game.

[IndianaJones]

12. I think his possible treason should be examined. nt.

[SwampG8r]

13. its a third rail

no good can come from its use

[PresidentObama]

16. Bingo. Especially when we have PLENTY of other things to attack him over.

[LostinVA]

29. Yup

[vaberella]

18. You're not the only one. I think so too. I don't want to even discuss it. n/t

[wildflower]

20. You're definitely not the only one. n/t

[elfin]

22. Same here BUT

it would be OK to praise his service 40 YEARS AGO to point out that times have changed and he is a geezer who has not changed with the times.

[Arkansas Granny]

23. I've argued the same point several times. We risk alienating a large group

of voters and their families if we attack McCain's military service and time as POW. It would not gain us any votes at all and would quite possibly lose votes. We have plenty to use against McCain without resorting to that.

[VWolf]

24. Depends on your intentions

Ethically, he's the one using his POW experience for political ends. That makes it fair game IMHO.

Politcally, it's a live wire / 3rd rail / sacred cow. The media is far too brainwashed & reactionary.

So, it may be ok for water cooler talk, but not for talk shows and speeches.

[musicblind]

25. I agree n/t

[DinahMoeHum]

26. I'm sorry, but McCain & handlers are waving the POW meme like a dirty diaper

and they need to be called out on it.

:evilfrown:

[scheming daemons]

27. Grow a set. We have an election to win.

Everything that is true is fair game.

[PresidentObama]

36. Grow a set? Such an educated response.

[TwilightGardener]

38. Damn straight. Swear to God, are the Freepers imploring each other to

stick to issues? Is Rush Limpballs sticking to issues? Is calling Obama a "celebrity" and comparing him to Paris Hilton an "issue"? STOP BEING PUSSIES, DEMOCRATS!!

[PresidentObama]

39. Stop being pussies? Grow a set? Such educated responses. You want us to attack like the GOP to...

...defeat the GOP...

Alright, ok. No thanks.

[TwilightGardener]

40. Yeah, we should attack the GOP the way they attack us. You got it.

Otherwise, we look noble in losing.

[PresidentObama]

42. We should get in the gutter, get filthy? No thanks.

[TwilightGardener]

47. Wow, you do not have the constitution for politics at all, do you?

[PresidentObama]

50. So I guess his rhetoric on hope, changing our politics...just rhetoric?

[ProSense]

52. Want to change our politics: Tell the truth

What are you advocating: hide the truth because McCain is a Veteran?

[TwilightGardener]

58. Can't have a new politics unless you get into power, can you now?

Besides, Obama isn't doing ANYTHING of the sort in terms of McLoon's war record, so your distress is wholly unfounded--unless you're telling fellow DUers what they can and can't talk about. Is that what you're trying to do--limit our discussion, curtail us from finding and sharing useful information?

[redqueen]

61. Obama isn't saying SHIT about McCain hiding POW records.

Do you have anything to say that that isn't complete BS?

[TwilightGardener]

62. This person must think we are part of Obama's campaign. Bizarre.

[Lilith Velkor]

81. That ploy is 208 years old.

Please get a clue.

[scheming daemons]

48. We just need to make sure we are using the TRUTH... not lies.... that's what differentiates us....

[LostinVA]

28. No -- I think his POW status/experiences and his personal life should be left out of it

No "32 propaganda films/traitor,"trophy wife" stuff. We don't have to, and I think that the former will espeically play badly.

[baldguy]

30. There is a difference

"Vietnam Vets Against John Kerry" was invariably made up of people who weren't Vietnam Vets, were invariably funded by the usual suspects opposed to ANY Democratic candidate, and invariably spread lies about John Kerry.

"Vietnam Vets Against John McCain" are, in fact Vietnam Vets. They are people who have served with him & were held captive with him. They are the people who know his service record the best, and tell the truth about it.

[last1standing]

31. If he's caught lying about his experiences then yes, he should be hit on it.

Otherwise you are suggesting that mccain be allowed to beat the POW drum 24/7 without repercussion. Currently, the mccain camp is trying to build him into an unassailable hero so that every comment Obama makes about him can be neutralized with "mccain was a POW!" as evidenced when some Obama surrogates suggested he may have cheated at the evangelical forum.

It's only by bringing mcain back down to human level (or less) that Obama can win this thing, so when mccain lies about his experiences, we should hit him....HARD!

[Alter Ego]

32. Agreed, but when he starts brandishing his POW status

as a "Get Out Of Shit Free" card then I start having issues with it.

[DefenseLawyer]

33. He can't have it both ways.

He can't trot out "POW" every time the heat is on and then claim it is off limits. The problem with your Kerry analogy is that they were LYING about Kerry, not that they were attacking his record. If someone is lying about McCain they should stop. But when his campaign responds to his house gaff by reminding us of his "house" in North Vietnam... sorry. All bets are off.

[Tim4319]

34. I do not believe he should be allowed to hide behind his duties

if there are some discrepancies! I do not think the it is fair for him to make up stories about his duties that go completely unchallenged, that turn out to be untrue. What happens is he is able to pull at those heart strings about his tour. Those stories could become more and more exaggerated, but if people are not aware of the exaggeration, he will win them over.

I do not think his service should be belittled in anyway! However, the truth should known, if he is going to continue to shove his service down all of our throats.

[gateley]

35. No. I think it should be left alone but ONLY because it can come back to

bite us politically.

The country views his record with EMOTION. Logic is no match for emotion.

Go after all the smarmy things he's done since then, and leave emotion of the mix.

[ProSense]

41. I don't buy that. The Republicans have conditioned people to think that

Yet they attack Veterans with lies whenever it suits their purpose.

How did they manage to get away with attacking Kerry's service using lies? Remember, the consensus os that the Swift Liars attacks worked.

They can get away with attacks using lies, but Democrats must avoid criticism based on truth.

[gateley]

54. It ALWAYS seems to hurt us more than it hurts them, so why even bother

when we have the past history to learn from?

PLENTY of despicable stuff to go after.

[ProSense]

69. Maybe it's time to change that. If McCain is lying and using his POW status

as cover, then he has to respond to questions raised as a result.

In fact, McCain is the perfect person to call out on this because he obviously is using his status as a political shield from criticism.

[gateley]

71. It's PAST time to change that -- I'm just not confident at how successful

we'd be attempting it.

Look at what happened to Clark. Total bullshit, but the perception remains.

[ProSense]

72. Anyone can call McCain out,

it doesn't have to be someone linked to the Obama campaign. Still, McCain is throwing out his POW status in response to issues that have nothing to do with it, there are opportunities there for the campaign.

Point is, if he uses his status as a political shield, it's fair game to call him on it.

[gateley]

80. I agree. Fair game. But not necessarily politically advantageous.

That's what I'm most concerned about - how does it affect us? How might it affect support at the polls?

I've given up on ideology at this point. I'm more concerned about the strategy.

[gateley]

55. It ALWAYS seems to hurt us more than it hurts them, so why even bother

when we have the past history to learn from?

PLENTY of despicable stuff to go after.

[goodgd_yall]

37. HE should leave it alone

For god's sake, that was then, this is now.

[salonghorn70]

43. You Are Not The Only One

My Dad was in WWII, I am a vet (got drafted in 1970) and I taught my son to respect military service because the military helps keep us free. I agree that I don't like when anyone goes after a vet's military record.

[polichick]

44. That's impossible - it's the only thing he's running on.

[Chloroplast]

45. McCain's military records are fair game.

He's running on his military expertise so why should it be off limits? If he hasn't done anything to be ashamed of, then I don't see how he could get upset.

[Bucky]

46. Any argument where McCain's record in uniform is the central issue is one that he wins. Period.

You can't argue against a guy who was tortured for wearing the American uniform in war zone. You can argue against a guy with so many houses he loses count. The only question is, which guy do you want to tell voters you're arguing with?

[scheming daemons]

49. Not if he lied about it

[Bucky]

56. Yes, even if he lied about it. It's well documented enough that any lies are small ones.

Tiny nuanced differences between the written record and septugenarian's recall of events is not a sound basis for an attack campaign. If you want to hit McCain where it hurts, target his lobbying ties, his Bush ties, his lack of clues on how to run the economy, his voting record in Congress, his temper, or his riduculous plans for tax cuts and for Iraq.

It's a target rich environment. And yet some people want to keep talking about the one issue that serves him best. :headbang:

[ProSense]

60. His support for Bush's torture

policies

[TwilightGardener]

53. This is a straw-man argument and a straw-man OP. The Obama campaign

NOR the Dem Party have so much as said a WORD about his military service. Nor will they, ever. But there's no harm in bloggers questioning it, is there? I mean, after all, someone started the Whitey Tape rumor about Michelle. Someone made up an email about Obama being a Muslim, snubbing the troops, not putting his hand on his heart for the Pledge, etc. All of that cost Obama poll points. We're not even making shit up, we're examining the TRUTH surrounding McCain's accounts. If it makes him look less than heroic, and word spreads...oh well. It's called "attacking his strength". WE can do it. Obama can't.

[redqueen]

59. THANK YOU.

Christ almighty...

[redqueen]

51. His campaign won't stop saying POW... he needs to release the POW records.

That's hardly the same thing as a group of liars smearing someone whose campaign DID NOT spew his vet status every five fucking minutes.

:eyes:

Christ I'm sick of this pollyanna bullshit.

[last_texas_dem]

67. By the Obama campaign, yes

Because the media would destroy Obama if the campaign officially spoke any ill of anything related to McCain's war record. Look at the shit-fit they had over Clark's fairly innocuous comment a few weeks ago.

But should bloggers and outside groups stay away from anything critical related to McCain's service? I think they should work to ensure that there is some "there" there before calling something into question, but otherwise, no. Your point about his treatment of veterans and POW/MIA's in the Senate is a good one, and something that should definitely be stressed. Even the McCain-loving media would have a hard time completely ignoring those charges if they became an issue. I see your point about staying away from criticizing any aspect of his military service itself and tend to agree- unless there really does seem to be some credible evidence. Honestly, I haven't really looked into the question that much. What the Smear-Boaters did to Kerry was bullshit because the charges were bullshit, but I don't think McCain's service should automatically be considered off-limits. The Repugs would never give a Democrats' war record (or any other aspect of their career/service) the same respect.

[JackORoses]

68. if McAnus is gonna play the POW card then it's validity should most definitely be questioned

[nxylas]

70. I think Obama should leave it alone

What McCain's comrades-in-arms do is up to them.

[beachmom]

73. I agree, and so does the Obama campaign.

[PresidentObama]

79. We haven't agreed on much lately beachmom, I'm glad we've found common ground somewhere

:hug:

[Vinca]

74. I would agree if McBush wasn't using his military record, especially

the POW years as his main selling point. In fact, I think he needs to release all of his military records, including the POW years, if he's going to beat that drum all the time. There is nothing whatsoever about flying a plane and getting shot down that makes a person qualified to be president. I think Dems, especially Obama, have treated his service with respect, but if he's lying about it, he needs to be called on it if he's going to make it a central part of his campaign.

[treestar]

76. Did the freepers even have this conversation in 2004?

They used it all.

The right is still playing the same game. They belittle Obama's strengths as unimportant.

They get no pass now.

[uponit7771]

78. Nope, they lied their ass's off. We can tell the truth and be honest about McSames war record & win

...with our heads held high

[treestar]

83. Just saw one of their lying commercials this morning

Claiming Obama would raise taxes and it would cause economic disaster and hurt the family budget, implying with the visuals that ordinary families with ordinary moderate income could not afford to pay their bills under Obama's taxes.

When in reality the taxes Obama supports would only affect the luxury budget of those making over $250,000.

[JerseygirlCT]

82. Don't you think veracity has something to do with this?

They lied about Kerry, which was the problem. There wasn't anything there, so they made things up.

I do that's different than pointing out where McCain's story and the truth move in separate directions, don't you?

[WA98296]

84. The MSM doesn't allow the democratic party to frame the debate. The topic will be

whatever the GOP wants it to be.

[ProSense]

85. Here:

media calling out McCain. The OP artcle is by a Lt. Gen.

[cynatnite]

86. It should be left alone, but not how he attempts to use it to shut down his critics...

I'm a vet and I'll be the first one to say that his military record should not be touched.

But when he uses his POW days and military service as a shield in order to deflect attacks that having nothing to do with the issue at hand...then it's a different matter. That's exactly what he's been doing.

[eshfemme]

87. I do hold this as a default position but then he started cheapening his record by using his POW

experience as an excuse for everything under the sun. That basically warranted that his record be scrutinized because his actions cheapened the common experience of veterans and POWs, which we can not allow to happen.

[margotb822]

88. Concur

If he wants to bring it into the public forum, then it should be debated. Especially considering that he uses it as a shield for everything.

[Orsino]

89. Well, left alone except for substantive attacks on the *quality* of his service.

Counting the planes he crashed in doesn't count.