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ulTRAX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 10:06 AM
Original message
Is Kerry's Health Plan a Joke?
Edited on Tue Aug-31-04 10:08 AM by ulTRAX
Here's an outline of a key area of Kerry's "plan" to reform health care from http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/health_care/:

"Provide Affordable Prescriptions
The Kerry-Edwards plan will reduce prescription drug prices by allowing the re-importation of safe prescription drugs from Canada, overhauling the Medicare drug plan, ensuring low-cost drugs, and ending artificial barriers to generic drug competition."

That's Kerry's plan?

If we were in a total war against an enemy... as we were in WWII, there'd be great efforts made to wring waste out of the system. Yet we are in war against disease, suffering and early death and we tolerate a business model that is dysfunctional at best and criminally wasteful at worst. Who pays the price? We do.

The US pharmaceutical industry claims it NEEDS high drug prices because of the high cost of R&D. A representative of Phrma was on Fresh Air last week. She stated, and I hope I have these number right, that the drug companies spend some 25 BILLION a year on promotion and about 36 Billion on R&D. We already know that 25 BILLION is not spent on R&D. Just how much of that 36 BILLION is going into new drugs?

According to Public Citizen.... "Drug industry R&D is made less risky by the fact that only about 22 percent of the new drugs brought to market in the last two decades were innovative drugs that represented important therapeutic gains over existing drugs. Most were "me-too" drugs, which often replicate existing successful drugs." Source:
http://www.citizen.org/congress/campaign/special_interest/articles.cfm?ID=6538

We saw this strategy when Prilosec was coming off patent. Rather than put resources into developing drugs to treat new diseases... AstraZenaca poured resources into protecting a cash cow. Expensive clinical trials were rigged to compare higher doses of Nexium against Prilosec to find some way to justify the new drug. A huge $500 million dollar advertising campaign was launched to get consumers to switch to Nexium... a drug with few if any new therapeutic benefits. Clinical trials were rigged to find some difference between Prilosec and Nexium. Here's a damning expose on a few well known drugs such as Nexium, Vioxx, Claritin: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/481198_print

The industry has proven itself more innovative in finding ways to perpetuate patents on lucrative drugs than finding new drugs.

"Over the past two decades the pharmaceutical industry has moved very far from its original high purpose of discovering and producing useful new drugs. Now primarily a marketing machine to sell drugs of dubious benefit, this industry uses its wealth and power to co-opt every institution that might stand in its way, including the US Congress, the FDA, academic medical centers, and the medical profession itself. (Most of its marketing efforts are focused on influencing doctors, since they must write the prescriptions.)" http://www.nybooks.com/articles/17244

Given the depth of the dysfunctionality in the pharmaceutical industry and how it affects us all, what is Kerry's plan? To permit drug reimportation? It's cowardly in the extreme.





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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
1. That's not the entire plan and you know it. Your post is a bad joke.
Why don't you tell the whole truth?
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RedEarth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. My thoughts as well....
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Deleted message
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. You said "Is Kerry's health plan a joke?"
Edited on Tue Aug-31-04 10:54 AM by blm
We GET the implication. You only said it was part after I pointed out your ommission.
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ulTRAX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. nice try, no cigar
I see you prefer a pissing contest and personal attacks than a discussion on Kerry's "plan".

Yes I did edit my post at the SAME time you were originally posting 11:08. But even in the original I was ALWAYS clear that the drug plan was PART of Kerry's over all "plan".

I have the original unedited post as an mht file and will upload it if necessary. But why don't I expect a retraction?
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ulTRAX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. original post
http://romcache.tripod.com/drugprices.mht

You'll have to right click and SAVE AS. Also I don't think Netscape/Mozilla supports mht so you'll need IE.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #7
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 03:02 PM
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sithknight Donating Member (85 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. logical
Hey now, let's not kid ourselves. Kerry is the best canidate for the presidency, but even he will admit he doesn't have the solution to every problem. The GOP swine give him shit for being a "flip flopper" but any thinking person knows that a functioning mind adjusts its stance as new information comes to light.

I agree with the initial post: Kerry's plan is not going to fix the entrenched industry problem. Reimporting drugs as a solution? come on now, that's just plain silly.

What we need to do (radically socialist here) is force the industry to accept that health care is not neccessairly a profit enterprise. Saving people's lives shouldn't come down to whether or not it is cost effective. Yet we've tried to apply a capitalist model to every damned problem in this nation.

Companies stopped producing tetnus(sp?) vaccination because they were losing money on it. The net result being that we're all at greater risk for lockjaw simply because someone looked at the books.

Kerry's plan is a good idea. But until we fully address the quandry of how to produce the drugs we need to save our lives without demanding that it always be profitable, we're going to be stuck.
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rog Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #6
20. Absolutely! (Long post, but the relevant links are up top.)
According to Paul Krugman (linked below) Kerry doesn't go nearly far enough, but right now it's all we've got and it's a step in the right direction.

Say what you want about Dennis Kucinich, but so far he's the only one I've heard who is willing to say what needs to be done ... AND, I might add, says exactly how he will pay for it.

Please don't have a knee jerk negative reaction to citing DK. There are many more folks who support the same ideas, linked below.

Here's Kucinich's page about his health care program. He spells out the basics pretty clearly. http://www.kucinich.us/issues/universalhealth.php

You can drill down through the linked articles at the bottom of the page and in the right hand sidebar.

Spend a day or two reading articles at Physicians For A National Health Care Program: http://www.pnhp.org

Take a look at recent articles of interest: http://www.pnhp.org/news/articles_of_interest.php

You can view a lot more articles organized by date: http://www.pnhp.org/news/bydate.php

Here are a couple I found interesting.

Uninsured's ills worsen come bills
http://www.pnhp.org/news/2004/july/uninsureds_ills_wors.php
(This is about a 51 year old musician who had a heart attack.)

... By the way, I'm a 60 year old musician who has never been able to afford insurance, so this really hits home. Fortunately, I've been pretty healthy, but a recent bout with kidney stone surgery opened my eyes to exactly the situation described in the article above. -rog ...

Our Health Care Mocks Equality
http://www.pnhp.org/news/2004/july/our_health_care_mock.php
Susanne L. King, M.D., Lenox, MA

Here are a couple of articles by economist Paul Krugman. The first addresses Kerry's health care proposal, the second addresses Bush's.

Health Versus Wealth
http://www.pnhp.org/news/2004/july/health_versus_wealth.php
July 9, 2004

Medical Class Warfare
http://www.pnhp.org/news/2004/july/medical_class_warfar.php
July 16, 2004

This last article was posted by a DUer whose name I can't remember. This was a presentation to her community political group, comparing Bush and Kerry's health care proposals. Seems to be based largely on the two Krugman articles above and breaks it down pretty well.

.rog.

-----

To the DUer who wrote this ... I'm sorry I can't remember who you are so I can give you credit, but thanks so much for posting this. I hope you don't mind that I put it up here again.

-----

My name is XXXXX XXXXXXX, or XXXXX as I am known to most people, and I will be talking about the future of health care in this country, or more importantly what is wrong with our deteriorating health care system and what our two candidates’ plans are to fix it.

First let me say that according to a study by the National Academy of Sciences 44 million Americans or 16% do not have health insurance and many more are underinsured. More ominously in another study it was found that 18,000 unnecessary deaths occur each year because of lack of health insurance.

Out of 225 nations, according to the CIA World Factbook, infant mortality rates, a criteria used by global health care watchdog groups to judge the effectiveness of the health care of a given nation, Angola ranked first and Singapore 225th with the lowest infant mortality rate. The USA ranked at 185.

Yet according to the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development, or OECD, we are spending $5267 per capita (2002), which is 14.6% of our GDP. This is 140% of the OECD average of $2144 per capita, 8.5 % of GDP, in other developed countries of the world. These nations seem to have also achieved universal coverage, which we haven’t.

So, let’s start with President Bush’s plan, a complicated scheme to privatize all health care and divert even more of the taxpayer’s health care dollars to the for profit health care industry. This is at the bottom of our health care problems. Our health care dollars are not going to pay the physicians and health care givers, nor are they going for the health care of the patient but into the pockets of the executive officers of these corporations and the profits of Wall Street investors. Here are some of the highlights.

President Bush has proposed:

Health Savings Accounts—this scheme involves insurance companies selling health savings accounts with an HSA Deductibility—under this proposal, taxpayers can set up tax-sheltered accounts similar to IRAs and then use the proceeds to pay out-of-pocket health costs and premiums. Very few low income people will find such accounts useful. They are beneficial mainly to people in higher tax brackets.

Prescription Drug Benefit under Medicare—this is a joke. Drug discount cards have always been available. We couldn’t find one that was more cost effective for us personally than the one we always had, but we have had our drug expense increase. For example I will use two of the drugs my husband has been taking for more than a year. Last year his Combivent inhaler cost $55.62. A year later it is $62.19 for the same medication.

Another drug Quinine Sulfa was $9.09, a year ago for a month’s supply. This month we paid $17.76, almost twice as much for a month’s supply. This isn’t just a few medications but across the board because the plan didn’t include a provision to negotiate prices with the pharma companies.

According to Howard Dean the $540 billion Medicare Prescription bill will send more dollars to HMO’s pharma companies and insurance companies than to our seniors.

The worst part of this prescription benefit is that in 2006 it will succeed in privatizing Medicare and force seniors into HMOs in order to receive drug benefits. The end result is no choice in health care providers, tight restrictions on health care benefits, a smaller pool of health care providers and benefits being decided by the accounting offices not a physician.

Also, with private health plans proclivity for cherry picking the healthy and denying coverage to the ill, more seniors will find themselves without necessary health care and prescriptions while rosy profits are posted in Wall Street for the corporations at taxpayer’s expense. When it comes to entitlement programs, the corporatists always proclaim that the marketplace should determine the cost, yet when it comes to them, they have no problem with entitlements and corporate welfare when they benefit from it.

Strengthened Medicaid and SCHIP (State Children’s Health Insurance Program)—According to Dr. Howard Dean, 500,000 children and one million adults have been kicked off Medicaid as the disastrous increase in federal deficits are passed along in the form of service cuts and higher taxes to state and local governments.

Provide a Health Insurance Tax Credit. A family earning $25,000 or less could receive a “refundable tax credit” or government payment of up to $3,000 towards the purchase of health insurance. However, the average family health insurance policy in 2003 cost $9,000 if employer provided. An individual policy would be even more. So a family earning less than $25,000 still has to pay $6,000 out of pocket. This would be a quarter of their total income and if they actually used the insurance, they would have to pay deductibles and co-pays as well.

Association Health Plans—the idea is that small businesses can organize themselves into associations to purchase health insurance collectively at lower rates. What a great idea, but businesses are already free to do this and many do already. But wait a minute. Bush’s proposal would exempt such associations from regulations that currently prohibit discrimination against individuals based on health status. This new provision could provide favorable rates for the young and healthy. The ill and aged will have to look el

Bush’s plan it is estimated would cost between $91 and $100 billion over ten years. How does he intend on paying for it? He proposes cutting two programs that actually help people get health care, Medicaid and the State Children’s Health Insurance Program or SCHIF.

Kerry’s Plan

Thomas Geoghegan, a lawyer and an author has stated in an article for the Physicians for a National Health Program, “It is very hard for the Democrats to forswear the cult of complexity. But they can’t become the majority party if they continue to make everything too complicated. For example, I actually like Kerry’s program on health. But I doubt anyone but the New York Times’ Paul Krugman can explain it.”

So, Byzantine as the plan seems, I am going to try to explain it.

This is a brief summary of what Kerry offers:

• Give every American Access to the Same Health Plan As members of Congress.

• Guaranteed health care for every child

• Support Medical Research and Assure all Americans benefit from the most effective treatment

• Make health care more affordable
For small business
For workers in between jobs
For retirees and Americans age 55 to 64

• Protect Medicare

• A new approach to Control Spiraling Health Care Costs
Lowering costs with new technology

• Affordable Prescription drugs for all

• Assuring fairness for people with Mental health needs

• Making malpractice insurance more affordable

• Strong enforceable bill of rights

• Protect the right to choose

• Protecting Women’s Health

Affordable health care for America’s families—Insure every child. He would provide a new deal to assure that the Federal government picked up the cost of the nearly 20 million kids enrolled in Medicaid in exchange for states covering kids in the Children’s health program.

Automatic enrollment in health coverage for each child in school requiring continuous 12 months of eligibility, and fulfilling the obligations to have eligibility workers available at community health centers to help enroll families. Also he would make sure all children are eligible.

Expand coverage for working parents up to 200 percent of poverty. Cover single or childless adults at or below the poverty line.

Cutting Small Business Health Care Costs—a premium rebate pool and access to FEHBP (Federal Employees Health Benefit Plan) and the Congressional Health Plan with a 50% tax credit for the cost of coverage would make health care two-thirds cheaper for small business employees than it is today.

Plan for affordable, quality health care coverage—Kerry’s plan will alleviate health care costs for families while providing increased choice and quality. He will make health care more affordable for all employers and employees by helping out with certain high cost health cases—up to $1,000 in premium relief, and expand access and choice by allowing Americans access to the same range of affordable health care plans that members of Congress get today. In addition, Kerry will make health insurance more affordable by providing tax credits for individuals and small businesses who buy into these plans, and insure all children and millions more adults by encouraging states to expand Medicaid eligibility for low-income children and families. Finally, Kerry will cut health care costs by allowing prescription drug reimportation and eliminating wastes through a series of reforms that will improve quality while reducing costs.

Plan for Affordable, Quality and Reliable health care coverage For America’s Veterans—Kerry’s plan will push for mandatory funding for veterans health care so that American never pits veterans in one state against veterans in another, and it will streamline the veterans’ health care system so that veterans get the care they need in a timely fashion. He will end the disabled veterans’ tax so that retired veterans are not punished for receiving both veterans’ pensions and disability compensation, and he will fight to ensure that all military reservists have access to the same level of healthcare as other soldiers on the battlefield.

Kerry’s Plan to Lower Prescription Drug Prices for Seniors—the two outstanding points of Kerry’s plan would be to re-import drugs from Canada and to prevent seniors being forced into HMOs because of spiraling costs.

Two estimates of Kerry’s plan are one says it would cost $900 billion over ten years. Then a revised study claimed it would cost $653 billion over a decade. How does he propose paying for it? He has said he would raise taxes on the top 2% that has received the generous tax cuts of George W. Bush.
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ulTRAX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #6
22. thank you for a thoughtful reply
There's any number of reforms that Kerry could push for. The current market model is just too broken and wasteful. If I had my wish, and I realize this is politically impossible at this time, all research would be centrally funded and organized by the NIH to prevent wasteful duplication. Drugs that did not promise to be improvements over existing drugs would not be funded. Companies would then be licensed to manufacture these drugs and they could compete to LOWER prices as they do in the generic market.

Kerry's "plan" to allow drug reimportation is nothing but ignoring the true cause of the high cost of drugs. Surely there are many reforms he could advocate short of the draconian model I suggested above.
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HootieMcBoob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
3. this is what it says at the link that you provided
From Kerry's website. Why do you only mention one aspect of the plan? hmmm?

Affordable, high-quality health care will keep our families healthy, our businesses competitive, and our country strong.

Over the last three years, family premiums have increased by more than $2,600 and prescription drug prices have grown four times faster than inflation. These skyrocketing costs have hurt our economy and forced many families into bankruptcy.

We deserve a president who understands that in America, regular check-ups shouldn't empty family checkbooks - a president who will put people ahead of insurance and drug companies.

John Kerry and John Edwards have a plan to address soaring premiums and cut Americans a break. Their plan will lower family premiums by up to $1,000 a year, cut waste from the system, lower the cost of prescription drugs to provide real relief to seniors, and use targeted tax cuts to extend affordable, high-quality coverage to 95 percent of Americans, including every child. And because John Kerry and John Edwards believe that everyone's health is equally important, they will provide all Americans with access to the same coverage that members of Congress give themselves.

To make affordable health care a right - not a privilege - for every American, John Kerry and John Edwards will:

Cut Your Premiums
John Kerry and John Edwards will cut family premiums by up to $1,000. That's $1,000 in real savings people can use to buy groceries, pay the bills, and save for their children's future. And that will mean more jobs and more competitive American businesses.

Cover All Americans With Quality Care
The Kerry-Edwards plan will give every American access to the range of high-quality, affordable plans available to members of Congress and extend coverage to 95 percent of Americans, including every American child. Their plan will also fight to erase the health disparities that persist along racial and economic lines, ensure that people with HIV and AIDS have the care they need, end discrimination against Americans with disabilities and mental illnesses, and ensure equal treatment for mental illness in our health system.

Provide Affordable Prescriptions
The Kerry-Edwards plan will reduce prescription drug prices by allowing the re-importation of safe prescription drugs from Canada, overhauling the Medicare drug plan, ensuring low-cost drugs, and ending artificial barriers to generic drug competition.

Cut Waste And Inefficiency
Today, approximately 25 percent of health care costs are wasted on paperwork and administrative processing. The Kerry-Edwards plan harnesses American ingenuity to cut waste, save billions, and take new steps to ensure patient privacy.


For a much more detailed look at the plan follow this link: http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/policy.html#health_care

For a comparison of Bush* and Kerry follow this link: http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/health_care/compare.html

Thanks for giving us the opportunity to talk about John Kerry's health care ideas :)
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ulTRAX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. why?
HootieMcBoob wrote: "this is what it says at the link that you provided From Kerry's website. Why do you only mention one aspect of the plan? hmmm?"

I linked back to Kerry's page... and I was clear that I was only commenting on ONE aspect of Kerry's plan. My point is that if Kerry can not take on the drug industry when criminally high price of drugs and industry dysfunctionality are so well documented, then he can't really be trusted to truely reform health care generally. In this regard Kerry's nothing but Bush-light.

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skygazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. And your point?
"Can't be trusted to truly reform health care.."? So what's that mean? You're voting for Bush and his tremendous health care reforms? What a bogus post!
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ulTRAX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. I see you too
I see you too prefer a pissing contest to a discussion on whether Kerry's up to the task.

So if I'm not in total agreement with Kerry I'm a Bush supporter? Hell, I think Kerry's position on Iraq and Israel are also Bush-light. Have problems dealing with the obvious?

Don't you dare question my Progressive credentials just because I'm disgusted that the best our dysfunctional political system can produce as a Democrat is Kerry. I will be voting Kerry in November but I'll be holding my nose.

Now... care to discuss Kerry's "plan" to deal with high drug prices?
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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. You clearly identified ONE aspect of his set of ideas ...
As 'The Plan' ....

Cmon ....
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
12. See "HEALTH CARE PLANS" at the right of your link ... What's a joke
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
13. Your deceptive attack on Kerry won't win any votes
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. Bush's Massive Hand Out To Big Pharma Is A Winner, Though
The man had a GOP majority in Congress and sympathetic Dems. If he wanted real health care reform passed, it would have been done.
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ulTRAX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. if Kerry can't take on Phrma....
If Kerry can't take on Phrma... and truly reform the pharmaceutical industry, then he's no better than Bush when he refused to allow Medicare to bargain for discounts.
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ulTRAX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. if you are going to accuse me of being "deceptive"
then you better do better than a hit and run post.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. Others in the thread have done a fine job of detailing your deception.
Edited on Tue Aug-31-04 11:31 AM by Feanorcurufinwe

Seems like the dishonesty is so glaring as to be obvious to everyone.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #21
36. Deleted message
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
14. This is as bad as the republican smears
Edited on Tue Aug-31-04 11:21 AM by bigtree
taking one piecemeal statement from their plan and plastering bits of articles atop to suit your own cynical view.

For those who actually want to read Kerry's plan it is available in detail at his site http://johnkerry.com

It's best to put a keyword in the search engine to get the broadest range of the campaign's view on the subject.
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ulTRAX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #14
28. the only one doing the smearing
I GAVE a link back to Kerry's homepage. Why are you pretending that YOUR giving the same link is proof that I'm "as bad as republican smears"?

The simple truth is that the reason health care is unaffordable in the US is the current market model is broken. Kerry addresses a small part of this problem when he calls for reduced overhead and faster approval of generics. He ignores the core of the problem.

If Kerry can not take on the pharmaceuticals whose sins are BEST documented... then he doesn't have the plan to truly reform health care generally.

Now, rather than more of your unsubstantiated personal attacks... do you care to debate the issues I raised? Didn't think so.
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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
18. Guess you'll just have to vote for * now.
Oh, wait
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AuntPatsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
23. Your post does come off as if you are denouncing
Kerry and yet the attacks against you does not help Kerry the way they were handled at first. If one plans on debating why Kerry vs Bush is the winning way to go, you are going to need to present facts at times which in the case of the interenet, it should be fairly easy by supplying links etc.

I am sure many realize that alot of others check out this site and lurk and probaly laughed their butts off and the way this defense of Kerry was handled at first...

Kudos to the ones who supplied the links to further the debate instead of just attacking the messenger. You just don't change minds that way...

Sorry if I am overstepping the bounds today or stepping on toes but I couldn't help giving my opinion...

And I wouldn't bet the farm that all those on this forum are sworn democrats instead of plants in order to just annoy, so sometimes, a more worthy debating form would be so much more handier...
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Norquist Nemesis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Good post!
and I agree with you...particularly about the plants with the mission to annoy. :)

Welcome to DU! :hi:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
26. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 11:45 AM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Deleted message
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Calling things as you *see* them is fine, provided you make sure that
you actually look first. :hi:
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ulTRAX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. please make sense....
Edited on Tue Aug-31-04 12:54 PM by ulTRAX
Damn it... what else do I have to do to prove I "looked" beside QUOTING Kerry's plan on drug prices and providing a LINK to that source. If you actually think that's NOT looking... then the problem's all yours. Deal with your own rush to judgment before you bash me with more vacuous claims. If you don't wish to discuss the failings in Kerry's "plan" then just admit it.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. You looked at ONE of MANY links on Kerry's HC plan and implied that
was his complete plan.

I'd say it's YOU that could make a little sense?
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ulTRAX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. no retraction?
You implied I was some Tex from CU. I am not. I don't see any user by that name at CU though some are close.

If perhaps s/he/it's a rabid Rightist and you're trying to smear me, I await a retraction.

That IS the decent thing to do... don't you think? Or don't you?
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. No retraction.
You are a poster at CU. Sorry I got the user name wrong.
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
37. Let's just do what Hillary did in 1993...and get nothing done AGAIN
Edited on Tue Aug-31-04 03:02 PM by zulchzulu
Healthcare reform needs to be incremental. I've talked with people who have looked at the Single Payer version and "socialized" healthcare and they were originally for it. Then after doing some homework and getting an understanding of the complexities of healthcare, they all universally feel that it has to be done in steps. Not tiny baby steps, but reasoned and solid steps.

Going to war against the pharmas is a foolish idea. Read Kerry's plan again. It will be a fantastic first step.
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indigo32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
39. Locking
too many PAs
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