Face it: If you wanted that Zinnist-Marxist Revolution it will not happen.

[Taverner]

If you want us to throw out all GMO's, nationalize big pharma, nationalize big oil, make every car a solar powered vehicle, ban highways, ban credit cards, ban meat eating, etc... this will not happen

We are not going to eliminate corporate subsidies

We are not going to erase Fox News

We are not going to stop corporate donations

We just aren't

Accept reality - things are going to get better, but not as fast as they got worse

That is the problem with making things better - it is harder to make them better than it is to let them get worse.

[leftstreet]

1. Oh not this shit again

[boppers]

4. Is that a billionares for bush march?

Kind of has that look to it..

[leftstreet]

21. lol yeah I think so

[QC]

33. I thought maybe it was a DU meetup. n/t

[Taverner]

8. OK - well lets just say you are going to set up a new system

What would it be? How would you implement it?

For all of the private businesses you plan on nationalizing, how would you compensate the owners?

If you don't plan on compensating, how will you deal with the blowback?

I mean, folks who just lost their livelihood aren't going to take to "The Government will take care of you - so shut up!" kindly.

And the corporations - what are you going to do about them? You know, the ones that are suddenly moving to China, and investing heavily in their defense?

Capitalism is horrible, except its better than the alternative...

[leftstreet]

12. FAIL

"That knife you're cutting your finger with is drawing blood."

"Oh yeah? Well what would YOU suggest I use instead?"

[Taverner]

16. OK, so in your proletariat revolution - tell me

What do you tell folks when you nationalize their businesses?

Its for the good of the country?

That didn't work in Venezuela, Cuba or Vietnam

Trust me - I HAVE BEEN TO ALL OF THOSE COUNTRIES AND TALKED TO MANY LOCALS IN THEIR LANGUAGE!!!

[leftstreet]

20. What isn't "working" in Venezuela, Cuba, or Vietnam?

If you answered Capitalism, you'd be right.

The defenders of Capital are indeed having a rough time all throughout Latin America.

[anigbrowl]

30. Hmmm. You know Viet Nam is a one party state, right?

And that they've moved to a market economy, and that last year's Big National Achievement was joining the WTO? Viet Nam has a nominally communist government but somehow I don't think you'd be thrilled to live there. They don't have a free press, for one thing; you'd probably find it rather restrictive. While it's a young economy in modern terms (due to a historical bias towards agriculture followed by a long period of war) it's also intensely capitalistic in practice; they're privatizing about as fast as they can.

Not that I hate Viet Nam or anything. Mrs Browl is Vietnamese. From the North part of the country, by the way - she's not an angry refugee capitalist from South Viet Nam (there's some tension between the two communities in the US).

[anigbrowl]

28. You sure do. Try harder.

[RaleighNCDUer]

19. You see, this is what happens when republicans are in charge for too long.

Morons never learn that there is more than black and white, that there are more than two choices, that between predatory lazzez faire capitalism and marxism there is a very wide range of alternatives.

Such as, among others, European style democratic socialism which defends capitalism by strongly regulating it, while socializing particular vital sectors which tend to be corrupted by capitalism. Of course, within that model there are numerous other alternatives - Sweden is not the same as Portugal is not the same as England is not the same as France.

Do let us know when you are ready to join the grownups at the table.

[HughBeaumont]

34. Well, we could try PRACTICING actual "capitalism", for one.

What we have is unbridled corporatism, which works for no one BUT the owner; and depending on her/his size, not even then.

If anyone's fishing for things that aren't going to happen, it's America's economy surviving under the Milton Friedman cancer it's been afflicted with for the past 28 years.

Big Owners need to realize that the strategy of "firing everyone, cutting wages and/or replacing you with third-world slaves until you're ready to earn just like them" cannot and DOES NOT lead to this little thing called "BUSINESS" or "CUSTOMERS". No money = no purchase.

I'm starting to wonder if anyone who has the power to create jobs is going to figure this little equation out sometime before America turns into a dust bowl.

But hey, why should they care? They got THEIRS. And that's all that matters.

[boppers]

2. You forgot the "Truth Commissions"

We won't be finding out the "Truth" about 9/11, Area 51, JFK, Castro, Chemtrails, HAARP, or Flouride.

:evilgrin:

[Taverner]

3. Oh yeah!

[TheWraith]

5. Umm... joking? Please tell me you're joking.

Sorry, I've just seen lots of DUers seriously buy in to all of that.

[Bucky]

13. Those aren't real DUers, however. Those are COINTELPRO PSYOPS Grays

They're infiltrating DU for the Saurians before we can defrost Walt Disney for the Illuminati.

[boppers]

17. That's just what they WANT you to think.

Unless hm... maybe *you're* a plant!

[boppers]

14. Joking? Sadly, no.

No amount of commissions, data, evidence (etc.) will change the mind of a "true believer".

[Danger Mouse]

36. CHEMTRAILS ARE REAL!!! THEY WERE INVENTED BY SPACE ALIENS!!

THEY CAUSED NINE ELEVEN!!!!!

[FrenchieCat]

6. I just want my fucking Pony!

Apart from that, I know that Obama ain't gonna please me all of the time. I read his book! He was very clear on that in it....especially since it is a simple fact that it is impossible to please all of the people all of the time.

[NashVegas]

7. Hey Little Froggie, Come Jump Right In

the water's nice and it's oh so much cooler now that we have a Dem coming into office.

[cali]

9. I don't expect it. I don't want it. And you aren't credible

judging from your comments in the Vilsack thread. Just because I think Vilsack is a lousy choice, doesn't mean I'm hankering for some "zinnist-marxist" revolutionl.

[Taverner]

11. No you aren't

I've read a lot of your posts and you're a realistic individual

Honestly - on the Vilsack issue, let's talk numbers.

Because everything else is just blowing stuff our of our...noses...

[Bucky]

10. Um, okay

But we'll still get Christmas presents, right? I mean, I don't have to give up that hope, do I?

By the way, just who are you lecturing today?

[happychatter]

15. No one has suggested these words "eliminate, stop, erase" THAT is reality

Last one first: Public Campaign Financing CAN happen and IS happening. No "First Ammendment" rights are violated because candidates have the option of private funds... they just can't do BOTH.

"If you want us to throw out all GMO's, nationalize big pharma, nationalize big oil, make every car a solar powered vehicle, ban highways, ban credit cards, ban meat eating, etc... this will not happen"

This fatuous mis-characterization of the progressive agenda is desultory, insulting and...

FALSE (read "fucking lie")

"We are not going to eliminate..." LIMIT "...corporate subsidies" - YES WE CAN

"We are not going to erase..." DIMINISH "...Fox News" - with the fairness doctrine or diminution of media consolidation - YES WE CAN

"We are not going to stop..." LIMIT "...corporate donations" - YES WE CAN

"We just aren't" - WHO IS "WE?" - Don't you mean "you," meaning the "loonie left" or some such insult?

"Accept reality - things are going to get better, but not as fast as they got worse"

I got some reality for you... WE JUST ELECTED AN AFRICAN AMERICAN LIBERAL DEMOCRAT WHOSE MIDDLE NAME IS HUSSEIN AFTER EIGHT YEARS OF ETHNOCENTRIC, BELLICOSE INSANITY

"That is the problem with making things better - it is harder to make them better than it is to let them get worse."

Frankly, you're as full of shit as a Christmas Turkey and you didn't even deserve THIS MUCH of my good energy

Have a happy holiday

[Taverner]

18. Please. Show. Support. For. Your. Angry. Diatribe.

[happychatter]

22. you posted lies, exaggerations and insults... sneering aspersions to people's character and IQs

and you accuse ME of an "angry diatribe?"

you ARE indeed, an insipid dolt

and that's the nice part

you have a heart like a dried up fucking raisin

are you on the correct board?

[Runcible Spoon]

25. ooo you do "burns" well! I quite enjoyed your post!

His only schtick is demanding statistics without providing his own. All in the name of corporate hegemony.

[cherokeeprogressive]

42. I've got some reality for YOU.

Things are NOT going to change. The war in Iraq will not end in 16 months like Obama said it would. There will be NO prosecutions of bush administration criminals. There will be NO rollback of the tax cuts for the wealthy. Your phone will STILL be bugged. All those civil rights that you've lost will still be wandering in the wilderness. In four or eight years your "YES WE CAN" bullshit will be replaced with "NO WE DI'N'T" and there will be ANOTHER candidate telling us how THINGS WILL CHANGE and that it will be CHANGE WE CAN BELIEVE IN, and we'll (yes, I said WE, as in the collective idiocy that is the United States) swallow it hook, line, and sinker. We'll hear angels sing every time the new candidate's name is mentioned (those angel voices will actually be canned and played in the background of the media who wants the new candidate elected). We'll vote for him/her (my guess is HER), and expect the world to be a better place immediately following Inauguration Day. We'll swoon over his/her choice of family pet, and argue over where the children will go to college. We'll ensure that whomever besmirches His/Her name "never works in this town again". But things will stay the same.

Then we'll do it all over again.

Here's to hoping that you have a happy holiday too.

[happychatter]

23. "piss off the lefties" unoriginal BAIT and ONLY bait

no text

[Sex Pistol]

24. Thankfully, you are right.

[Odin2005]

26. I'm a biotech major, the the anti-GMO "frankenfood" hysteria pisses me off.

If I hear another luddite scream about it "being evil to mess with nature" or mix up the BS pulled by Monsanto with the technology as a whole I'm gonna blow.

Are any of you people bashing GMOs insulin-dependent diabetics? Because your insulin comes from genetically engineered E. Coli.

[Hanse]

29. Pretty sad, ain't it?

Started off with RW Creationist Jeremey Rifkin, but it didn't get any traction among the anti-stem cell crowd, so he had to find an audience elsewhere.

[Runcible Spoon]

31. don't be ignorant.

Aside from whatever people perceive about GMO crops, the most immediate concern it NOT with food safety. It is about patenting strains of seeds, which brings about a whole host of ethical and legal issues and in short, spells bad news for the farmers worldwide who are coercd into using their products.

If you don't smell anything wrong with this as a biotech major, I would seriously consider switching to something less intellectually rigorous, like underwater basketweaving.

[killbotfactory]

44. Companies like Monsanto have been bankrolling biotech research in universities

So it's not surprising they might be blind to the issue.

[Writer]

27. Heheheheheeeee

I lurve it!

:thumbsup:

[Ken Burch]

32. Is there a reason you decided to be an utter drag and start this thread?

Don't we HAVE to be pushing for strong, radical changes to even get the watered-down wishy-washy liberal kind?

You're making the same mistake people made in early '93-Telling people they have no right to expect anything from the politicians they elected?

Why would you WANT to do that?

It's never helped this party or the American left, whatever that might be, to minimize goals.

[HughBeaumont]

35. I'd be happy with "Keynesian" with European-style social safety nets, thank you.

Used to be a time where "layoff" meant you got called back when times got better. Now it means "complete severance, get the fuck out, lotsa luck to ya!" How is this productive to the company or the economy?

You wouldn't want to think that the Owner/Shareholder class is intentionally tanking the economy, but with scandal upon scandal, bad decision upon bad decision, it always, always ALWAYS leads to their workers paying the price and them getting off scot-free and keeping their fortunes intact for the most part. It really makes you wonder why they and they alone are the arbiters of the storied "bottom" and when they decide, if ever, enough will be enough?

Businesses NEED customers. Businesses cannot get customers if everyone's gettin' fired and they know they're next. Businesses cannot get customers if overwhelming debt is going to proliferate and costs keep rising while the remaining workers' wages are declining in real dollars to match those costs.

Or perhaps we should just . . . Suck it Up!??

[Armstead]

40. Yer a Goddamn Commie

I'll bet you love them fookin unions too.

In a more serious vein, you hit the nail on the head refering to the difference in how layoffs are handled.

Once was a time when layoffs were considered a necessary evil of last resort.Now it's become a standard operating procedure whenever there is a down quarter.

[Hippo_Tron]

43. What makes you think we won't see a return to Keynesian policies?

Because IMO I think that's exactly where we're headed and for all of the reasons you mentioned above. There are some exceptions. Keynes' theory was largely based on the idea that deficit spending was okay because "In the long run, we're all dead" and while that's true, the National Debt is no longer simply a long-run problem. But I think that Obama is going to bring in a lot of Keynesian/New Deal thinking into his administration.

And just because Geithner worked in Clinton's mostly centrist administration doesn't mean that we're going to see a return to Clinton's economic policies. Clinton governed largely during a time of unprecedented economic prosperity and Obama will govern during the biggest meltdown since the Great Depression. Roosevelt implemented more Keynesian policies than any other President in history and he had a Republican Treasury Secretary.

Centrists are centrists because for the past 28 years it was politically expedient for them to be centrists. I think that 2008 was, to a certain extent, a referendum on the past 28 years (certainly on the past 8) and slowly but surely we are going to see this country shift to the left. Just because the people who have been arguing for more left wing policies all along aren't being appointed to the top positions of power, doesn't mean that we aren't heading in that direction.

[HughBeaumont]

46. I have no doubt Obama will institute responsibility and try to right this ship.

I don't really MIND Obama's choices, if only because anything is better than the cronies Bewsh polluted his economic cabinet with.

I don't think the onus is on Obama steering America into some much needed Keynesian elements. The Friedman model has failed, and continuing it would be madness. The question is: Will Big Business start playing ball?

People have always said "We're all in this together". Are we really? Are the CEOs and their underlings going to stop the "quarterly profit" mindset once and for all, or are they still thinking they're going to be running their companies to their benefit only at the behest of the "oxygen thieves", like they did in the Bewsh/Reagan years?

They say a bad event is the ultimate time to re-invent yourself. How's about government start planning to not only improve the infrastructure, but our lousy social safety net? How about returning to the rule of law? I always gotta wonder what kind of person/s are allowed to get away with looting 50 billion dollars or running a company with the size and resources of General Motors Merrill Lynch or Lehman Brothers straight into the landfill?

There isn't any recovery without jobs. The ball has to get rolling sometime if this is ever going to come off.

[Hippo_Tron]

48. Corporations will kick and scream throughout the entire process like they did in the 30's

But once it's all said and done they will get the message and learn to live with it.

[HughBeaumont]

52. Not only did they kick and scream . . .

. . . They actually thought fascism was the better plan!

Unfortunately for the DuPonts and Morgans, Smedley Butler couldn't be bought.

[Posteritatis]

49. re: layoffs - really?

It might be my relative noobishness to the Earth showing (I'm in my mid-twenties), but I'd always assumed "layoff" was synonymous with "firing."

Did it actually have temporary connotations before? When?

[HughBeaumont]

50. Mostly the blue-collar world did this.

Ford and USX used to idle workers, but retain them for when business picked up, not sever their heads completely and toss them to the wolves. My dad used to get idled for times of recession but got called back; they called it a "layoff" but it didn't mean what we now know. That was the benefit of union membership.

When I got fired from an HMO in the 90s, he couldn't understand the concept that "layoff" in my world meant "you aren't coming back at all".

A national guaranteed income was probably one of the few good things Milton Friedman supported. This way, the economy doesn't completely take the piss when workers are let go.

No; instead, let's just fire everyone and hope business gets magically created out of thin air! SURELY that's the better plan :eyes:

[Posteritatis]

51. Huh; that second definition is the only one I've known/encountered

Thanks for the info on that.

[PVnRT]

37. Probably because half the people I was with believed it at the time

[Lilith Velkor]

38. What a lovely straw leftist you have built, and how stylishly you have dispatched it!

:wanker:

[mitchum]

39. Well, it is rather difficult for DEAD men to exploit their fellow men

[Armstead]

41. Are you really that narrow minded?

I hear Bill O'reilly is retiring from radio. Maybe you want to apply for the job as his replacement.

[killbotfactory]

45. Yes, let's embrace a system that is constantly booming or busting

Where the economy is firmly in the hands of the greediest and most corrupt motherfuckers on the planet. It will all benefit us in the long run. There is no better system imaginable that could possibly work better, and anyone who thinks so will only lead the way for the next Stalin to rise to power.

[Terran]

47. Your reality, I guess

Mine is changeable. Maybe not tomorrow, but not never. :eyes:

[NorthCarolina]

53. Yes we "can't" ?

n/t

[IMPERIUM V]

54. ...

[leftofthedial]

55. I'd compensate many of the "owners"

with prison sentences

[Generator]

56. Wow is that what you think people on DU want?

Good laugh. I think you have the wrong site. All the people want here is to worship Obama, get their 401k back on track and ignore everything else.

And oh yeah get back to me when that Iraq war thing is still going on in five years. I have no doubt Obama will win in 2012-he's already campaigning with his Gay hating preacher pick. We basically just want the torture and Constitution raping to end and bring some soldiers home and OH YEAH look ourselves in the mirror when calling ourselves Democrats.

[TheKentuckian]

57. From a practical standpoint, we cannot continue as we have

We need to nationalize or break up companies that are "too big to fail". That's it anything else leads to bizzaro-socialism where only risk is socialized.
I also think that public utilities were there is no competition should also be nationalized. The market does not affect such institutions and there is nothing to make them fair stewards to their communities or to give them reasons to improve.

Then we have to end the I gotz mine and you're on your own mentality. Its not conducive to a civilization.