Question for Obama's most loyal supporters.

[leftofthedial]

Will there ever come a time or an issue over which you will think it is appropriate for anyone to criticize him?

[Solon]

1. Of course not, they aren't supporters, they are acolytes...

They traded in their brains for campaign stickers. Its so much easier to be cheerleaders rather than actually think for themselves.

[Jackeens]

7. Jeez, I thought I'd been transported to Freeperland!

[Solon]

10. I know, a lot of them are acting just like Freepers supporting Pretzeldent Bush...

Isn't that so?

[Name removed]

Deleted message

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[Seen the light]

19. Clearly the poster that's been here since 2001 with 15,000+ posts and a star is a freeper

I mean.....clearly. Clearly.

[northofdenali]

35. light..............

:rofl::popcorn::rofl:

Love the wit!

[Solon]

Shhh, I'm deep undercover...

So deep in fact, that I actually believe the things I post. ;)

[northofdenali]

48. Solon, you're not even here.

Not even Agent Mike is aware of your presence..........beware of Oscar, though. He eats, um, stuff.

[Solon]

51. .

This is me being invisible, is it working? :D

[northofdenali]

74. Yep.

Invisibility is WILLED, young Jedi........ :P

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

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[DevonRex]

30. Yeah. What hnmnf said. I hope I spelled it right. :)

[mwei924]

31. Couldn't have said it better.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DevonRex]

49. You're calling hnmnf a homophobe? That is NOT cool. Not at all. nt

[MadBadger]

58. Care to PM me who called me a homophobe and whatever else they said.

I just love when I'm called a homophobe, i always fine it quite ironic.

[ronnykmarshall]

69. and I'll back you up.

That's ca-ca.

[northofdenali]

44. Gawd, I do so love replies like that.

I just have a tendency to put them in the body of my posts, usually with a "headline" HTML....... my bad.... :evilgrin:

[babylonsister]

2. Sure. Warren, for one. Continued war in Afghanistan, for another.

I'll get back to you on the rest.

[LoZoccolo]

3. Lame. n/t

[Pale Blue Dot]

6. ... but unanswered.

:rofl:

[LoZoccolo]

75. I thought people were smart enough to know why.

But you're not: it's a strawman.

[leftofthedial]

53. -response.

[thewiseguy]

83. That would be you.

[Uzybone]

4. Most if not all of us are criticizing Warren

Unlike a few we are just not ready to act as if he is a bigot. Warren is a huge mistake, but I'm still 100% behind our PE.

[mwei924]

5. When he signs shitty laws, starts stupid wars--

Let's say when he's actually doing stuff.

[grantcart]

8. Of course and there are many threads by loyal supporters that indiciate just that

Your OP simply proves that you don't read well and simply want to lump completely unrelated issues together.

A very lazy intellectual approach.

[DevonRex]

46. Well said. Thank you. Another thing...

The criticism here flies fast and heavy and sometimes I just don't want to add more to the mix.

I don't like the Warren thing. But I pretty much refrained from voicing that today. I was more upset with seeing one DUer attack another DUer. We shouldn't be doing that here. And we still have time to make our voices heard and maybe Warren will be removed from the ceremony.

Another thing is that I took Obama seriously when he said he would be the president of all the people. Unfortunately that includes a LOT of evangelicals and they are all homophobes. If Warren isn't removed from the lineup, then perhaps Obama's inauguration speech will make his position very clear regarding FULL civil rights for GLBTs.

Maybe that's naive, but Obama has done lots of things that people were worried about and it all turned out okay. I no longer doubt his ability to create a good outcome.

[leftofthedial]

59. damn, you critics are so hard!

[tekisui]

9. I don't do 'loyalty'.

Choosing Warren was a horrible, stupid poke in the eye, kick in the gut to the GLBT community. It was wrong and a big mistake.

Most of the decisions, the picks he has made, I can understand the political implications of them. THis one makes no sense to me.

I have emailed change.gov on one other issue, and sent another complaint today. I still, however, support Obama. When he starts implementing policy, the real criticisms will begin.

[panader0]

11. Question for some DUer's : The guy hasn't even taken office yet

Can some of you hold back your endless parsing of BS about him until he actually takes office? Up until now, all you can really say is that he's made a lot of appointments and is set to hit the ground running. It's like because you don't have bush to kick around much longer you are looking for anything you can to complain about.

[saracat]

12. I love how on one hand re : cabinet appointments Obama is in total control,

according to some while on this issue, they insist Obama had "nothing to do" with this choice. Right. Like he doesn't "know" who Warren is and doesn't "know" who will speak at the Inauguration..:sarcasm: Reminds me of the anti choice ministers that kicked off the convention

[CreekDog]

40. please show us that message where someone claimed Obama "didn't know who Warren is"

i mean i'd really like to see that message, considering i have definetely not read such a message here.

[saracat]

I didn't say anyone said that Obama didn't know who Warren was.

but there was a post explaining why a poster thought Obama didn't "pick" Warren. On the contrary. The problem would be that Obama "does" know who Warren is and DID pick him.

[CreekDog]

71. And I didn't say you said that, I just want to see that post

because that's pretty stupid. so could you provide the link?

[last_texas_dem]

13. Doubtful

Obama could do a complete 180 on every issue that he campaigned on, and there would be folks on here claiming it was some sort of complicated strategy, Obama knows what he's doing, and he's got it all "under control."

[Political Tiger]

14. Yes.

[Seen the light]

15. A lot of them look to Obama the same way some on the other side look at the flag

You go to right-wing sites and you'll see tons of avatars and signatures of the American flag. The flag is holy to them. The things the flag represents? Um...fuck those. But the flag itself? Hell yes, ban flag burning!

On places like DU, you see tons of people with avatars and signatures of Obama smiling. Obama is more important to them than any idea or belief system. The man himself is the object of their affection and praise, not the ideas that he (supposedly) represents. That's a little sad to me.

There's a little bit of hero worship here from people that legitimately do not understand the difference between criticizing Obama's positions on things and criticizing Obama the human being.

Flame on! :D

[Joe the Revelator]

16. Yes, when he actually starts governing, then sure there will be things to critcize him

Jumping on every decision he makes prior to even being inaugurate is reactive and childish.

[ecstatic]

17. It's not clear that Obama made the choice. I think the JCCIC did

and I disagree with their choice.

[polichick]

18. I don't think those who rubber stamp everything he does are the "most loyal"...

They're just willfully blind.

[northofdenali]

20. Damn right. I started about 4 minutes ago.

On change.com - a very nasty email about Rick Warren.

I will follow it up with a hand-written letter, delivered by certified mail so that I'm sure it's received.


Pissed, here. Change, my ass.

[democrattotheend]

21. I admit I put him up on a pedestal sometimes

And maybe it clouds my views on some things. I care a lot about gay rights but I honestly don't see this as such a big deal. If he were giving Warren a pulpit to talk about gay marriage, that would be one thing, but I doubt that will be part of what he says at inauguration.

There are other things Obama could do that would really upset me, like caving on the Employee Free Choice Act or the Colombia "free" trade agreement. I know it's possible that he will do one or both and I know that there are times when he's going to disappoint me. But my coworker put it perfectly: if we have a president who pisses us off 25% of the time, isn't that a whole lot better than a president who pisses us off 99% of the time?

The only time I've gotten so upset with Obama so far that I questioned whether I was right to support him in the primaries was when he changed his mind on FISA. And I will admit that it took me a while to acknowledge how upset I was and my initial instinct was to defend him. I guess I am inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt, and even if I disagree with him, I don't want to sound like a freeper attacking his character.

It's totally legit to be upset with him over Rick Warren, but I hope people don't lose sight of the bigger picture. I'm Jewish and pro-Israel but I never got upset about Obama belonging to his church in spite of some of the stuff Reverend Wright said about Israel and that the church wrote about Israel in its newsletter, because I know that's not what Obama believes.

[Shiver]

22. Criticize all you want.

Just be fucking civil about it. I don't drink Kool-Aid, I'm not an 'acolyte', I don't subscribe to 'group-think', and I'm not a 'right-wing coporate apologist'. I'm as pissed about the Warren thing as anyone else, but I don't think it represents Obama's personal views.

Criticism is encouraged, if it's intended to open debate and discussion. Insult those who disagree with you, though, and it creates the idea that you're just bitching to hear yourself bitch.

[Hamlette]

23. when he actually, you know, DOES something

can we wait until he takes office and makes some decisions before we decide he's no good?

[Neshanic]

26. Sorry, I was kissing the poster of him on my bedroom wall. What was the question?

[QC]

28. Is it the beach picture?

That's one's sooooooooo dreamy:

:loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya:

[Neshanic]

32. It IS! How did you know? He is a dreamboat. What was the question again?

[QC]

39. I think you are supposed to tell us about your dream date with him!

And please--spare NO details!

[Neshanic]

56. Well if you must know! I imagine that I meet him at a fundraiser...

and we talk. Then he asks what I do, and I tell him I am a landscape architect out of work. Then he says that he needs someone for the Department of the Interior and would I like to interview for it. I'll say!

Then he asks if I could serve in his administration and sign the "GSV" form. This is the "Gay Silence Vow" agreement. He requires all that for his staff that are fence sitters and such, but had a bigger agreement with Janet. Everyone must project straight wholesomeness. This I gladly give up.

Then I picture myself behind a big desk with his portrait on the wall, as I do Department stuff. Sometimes we go to lunch and share the Cheesecake dessert!

[QC]

63. In my dream date, I am lounging in my marabou dressing gown, eating bon bons,

when suddenly I hear a knock at the door.

"Who could that be?" I wonder aloud, as I head to the door, where I find a delivery boy with a dozen yellow roses.

Tearing the envelope open and reading the card, I find a note filled with sweet nothings and signed with the initials BHO.....

[Neshanic]

67. Sweet nothings! Haaaaaa! Excellent.

[QC]

70. You should see the marabou dressing gown! n/t

[leftofthedial]

60. LOL

I hope those stains are spit.

[MadBadger]

27. Its always okay to criticize him

Now if a person criticizes every single thing he does, then theres a problem.

[AllentownJake]

29. Yes, and I did so today on this board.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=7991186&mesg_id=7991186

[cali]

33. Do you consider me one of his most loyal supporters?

If so, I've criticized him on several issues, including his appt of Vilsack and Warren.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

41. yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

whoever the fuck you are.

[leftofthedial]

54. I think you generally defend center and right-of-center Democrats

and the DLC/New Democrat "democrats"

I hadn't seen your criticisms, but I've been busy the last day or two.

[KitchenWitch]

34. Great post

thank you.

[Uzybone]

43. Actually its a very dumb post

because there are many "loyal" Obama supporters who are very disgusted with him over this Warren issue. The OP totally ignores reality.

[KitchenWitch]

47. and that is your opinion

I see so many here being apologists for Obama's choice of Warren, I am wondering if I ended up at the other place and not DU...

[boppers]

38. Strawman

There's always been time, and issues, to criticize Obama on.

Attack, cajole, smear, and mislead, not so much.

[gravity]

42. I am saving my criticisms for when he is in office

[DCBob]

45. Iraq.

That was his biggest issue. He has to follow through on that promise or there will be massive protests and I will be there.

[XemaSab]

50. I think constructive criticism is good

I think that declaring him a worse president than W is grossly premature.

[DCBob]

52. Not only grossly premature -- it's asinine.

[leftofthedial]

61. not to mention grossly inaccurate.

He's been a better president as PE than boy george was for 8 years in the WH.

[cboy4]

55. Alright. I apologize.

I think.

[leftofthedial]

57. I love you man.

I adore your commitment to justice. :thumbsup: :hug:

[stillcool]

62. Absolutely..there is nothing wrong..

with criticism. It is how one chooses to express that criticism that is the problem. What you give is what you get.

[elkston]

64. It's easier to criticize Obama ...

if you are not emotionally invested in his success. When you insult Obama over petty things, think about who you are also hurting.

[leftofthedial]

66. define "petty"

[elkston]

68. Going apeshit before he even takes office. (eom)

[leftofthedial]

72. are you saying that none of his actions since the election matter?

[Solon]

78. This poster you are talking to thinks gays can pass as straights and not face prejudice...

in other words, a classic homophobe.

[sniffa]

65. Gosh, can't think of any

[Neshanic]

73. It's like that Star Trek episode where when they questioned stuff they got an electrical shot in the

forehead.

Kinda works like that.

[mmonk]

76. I was an Obama delegate and I'm being critical.

I'm an American and it is my right.

[Deja Q]

77. Yes. After he takes office. Until then, all of this is conjecture.

It is as simple as that.

[leftofthedial]

80. so nothing he has done since early November matters?

[Hippo_Tron]

79. I'm a loyal Obama supporter and I think this is a perfect time to criticize him

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=7993720&mesg_id=7993720

Anybody who thinks that Obama shouldn't be criticized clearly missed the "change comes from the ground up" message.

[snowbear]

81. ~~Certainly! ...But his staffers inviting Warren along w/others pastors & ministers...

.
.

..probably won't be one of those times..

From what I read over at Kos.. Warren is one of many who was chosen by an Inaguration Committee of some sort.

Are we supposed to throw him under the bus everytime his people do something screwy?

[leftofthedial]

82. you seem happy enough to throw "fringe leftists" and gay people under the bus.

BUT...I don't hear people saying "throw Obama under the bus." I hear legitimate criticism of Obama's actions as PE.

The "Committee" does the work, Obama has a say in whom they choose. They've no become cover for his selection of Warren.

I'm still troubled by his selection of an IMF, Fed, Wall Street insider to head Treasury.

[Abacus]

84. Waiting to see what he does with the Patriot Act, Guantanamo, Energy, Education, & Foreign Policy

(I know what the plans are, I'm waiting for the execution.)