I support the President-Elect and I am glad people are criticizing him over Warren

[Hippo_Tron]

To some on DU this seems like an either/or thing when it really isn't. Allow me to explain.

Politicians are in the business of politics and politics is the business of winning elections. At the end of the day that's what it's really about. Any politician who gets even close to the level in political that Obama has achieved has more or less mastered the art of winning elections. The art of winning elections boils down to maximizing your own popularity.

For politicians this is a simple mathematical formula. Obama knows that he will get the same support or more of the GLBT voters in the next election if he passes some decent legislation on the GLBT rights front. He also knows that he can siphon off a few voters from the right by putting Warren up on stage at his inauguration. The GLBT voters will get pissed off but Obama figures that they will forget about it or forgive him when he makes advances on GLBT legislation.

Does this sound dirty? Well of course it is, politics is a dirty business, especially on the level Obama is at. People who prioritize "doing good" over winning election don't get very far. Of course sometimes good is done in the process because doing good is politically expedient. Other times politicians do good by taking a "principled stance". But these "principled stances" are just as calculated as the pandering to both sides is. Whenever a politician takes a "principled stance" they do so in such a manner that screams "hey look at me I'm standing on principle" because the notion of taking a principled stance plays well with their constituents rather than the notion of them pandering.

In the case of GLBT rights, this isn't an area where it is politically expedient to take a principled stance, at least not in the current environment. You can maximize your votes far better by taking a wishy-washy stance in this case than you can by clearly picking a side.

So what do we do about this? We hold Obama's feat to the fire and change the environment so that it is no longer politically possible for him to stick his finger in the wind. JFK did the exact same thing that Obama is doing right now. He took a wishy-washy stance on Civil Rights until 1963 when the tension was so high that it simply wasn't possible to sit on the fence anymore. Once the tension rises Obama is going to have to actually take a stance or he will look weak.

In the meantime I will continue to support the President-Elect on the issues where he is right. But his stance on gay marriage and his condoning of homophobic pastors like Rick Warren is dead wrong.

And those who think that we shouldn't speak up about this, you really should go back and listen to Obama talk about how change comes from the bottom up. Obama and most other elected Democrats are clearly not ready to bring the change we need in this area and so it now falls on us to do it ourselves.

[liberalmuse]

1. Thank you.

It's well-reasoned stuff like this that helps get some of us through the disappointments. God, I've been so high since November 4th. I guess it was time I had to be knocked down and kicked the shit out of. Oh well. Lesson learned.

[daninthemoon]

2. thing is, there's no more time. the massive reforms we need now,

on so may issues, made far worse by the last eight years, we don't have wiggle room for slip ups or political cinivances. we desperately need the new admin to do what's right, and this is wrong already.

[Hippo_Tron]

4. Massive reforms involve a HUGE amount of political calculation

FDR was extremely politically calculating and extremely good at it. That's how he got those massive reforms passed. Lincoln probably would have been too, but polling didn't exist in 1861. Lincoln actually tried to gauge public opinion by chatting with ordinary citizens but that obviously didn't work as well as today's methods do.

[daninthemoon]

9. so, are you saying to wait? i'm willing, since i can't do anything else,

but i'm worried. i need a progressive, and wether he ran as one ort not, i expect him to be one. am i wrong?

[Hippo_Tron]

11. Depends on what you need a progressive on

Reforming the banking system? Obama is likely going to be pretty damn progressive on that because the political calculus adds up. The financial industry is extremely unpopular right now as is corporate American in general. There is the popular will to reform the system and Obama will not only improve his own image by doing so, he will make the Republicans look bad when they oppose it (as they inevitably will).

Gay marriage? As I said in the OP, Obama is not going to be too progressive or bold on this issue because the country is still divided over it and the confrontation has not gotten to the point where he has to take a stance. If we want him to be bold in this area then we need to drag his ass their ourselves.

[daninthemoon]

14. i suspect that the numbers are also a factor. depends on whose

numbers you look at, but no matter how you sclice it, gays won't decide elections, there just aren't enough. thing is, America is supposed to enforce equal right sfor all, especially minorities. it's taken over 200 years to get as far as we have, but somehow our fed gov has got to get in front of this equality issue.

[Hippo_Tron]

15. Gays won't decide elections but if enough straight people get on board, that coalition might

And remember Obama doesn't just need solid demographics like gays and those sympathetic to gay rights just to vote for them. He needs them to make phone calls, knock on doors, etc. At the end of the day we will all likely vote for him again because the alternative is a nightmare. But if he wants us to work for him then he needs to earn it.

[villager]

3. You are right about what Martin Luther King (and others) called "Creative Tension"

... and let's hope Obama is similarly moved, as JFK was...

[tyne]

6. It appears as though some people are forgetting this

from election night...

"Let us resist the temptation to fall back on the same partisanship and pettiness and immaturity that has poisoned our politics for so long. Let us remember that it was a man from this state who first carried the banner of the Republican Party to the White House – a party founded on the values of self-reliance, individual liberty, and national unity. Those are values we all share, and while the Democratic Party has won a great victory tonight, we do so with a measure of humility and determination to heal the divides that have held back our progress. As Lincoln said to a nation far more divided than ours, “We are not enemies, but friends…though passion may have strained it must not break our bonds of affection.” And to those Americans whose support I have yet to earn – I may not have won your vote, but I hear your voices, I need your help, and I will be your President too."

[villager]

10. happy as I am that Obama won, I always figured we'd have to keep pushing

...against the corporatists.

The difference is, that pushing can now make a, well, difference

[Clio the Leo]

5. DING DING DING!!! That's correct!!! (well, the first part anyway)

TOTALLY disagree with you on the rest though. lol

[IndianaGreen]

7. I'll add my DING DING DING!!! to your DING DING DING!!!

Hippo_Tron is right on target!

[Hippo_Tron]

12. What do you disagree with?

[mwei924]

8. Thank you for that ratoinal post.

I think people tend to forget that just because DU people are not always BFF with those who aren't friendly to gay rights, that they don't exist in this country or they're some tiny fringe group. The fact is a significant enough portion of the country disapproved of gay marriage that it was banned in every state that had it on the ballot. That's unfortunate and sad but those people are out there, and banishing all of them is just not possible right now.

Even in liberal areas, there are still people who aren't evil or mean but might be a little uncomfortable with gay marriage. You think "Crash" won that Oscar because it was the better movie? Even in liberal Hollywood.. I don't think its good for our cause to demonize them and call everyone homophobes left and right. The best way to convince them is to reach out to them and ask them to join the right side of history.. Yeah, sometimes we have to put up with Rick Warren types because his following is significant, and can actually help us on certain issues.

[ecstatic]

13. good points. nt

[Uzybone]

16. ITA with your OP

I don't think there much disagreement on this board that Warren is a bad choice.

[babylonsister]

17. Great post. The PE can learn. People, keep letting him know how

you feel!

[Undercurrent]

18. Thank you Hippo_Tron!

Rational thought and perspective seems to be in short supply, and I very much appreciate your adding y a sane voice to the discussion.

If your house is on fire (and our economic house is definitely on fire), it forces you consider your priorities. It makes sense that saving people from being turned into cinders should be at the top of the list.

Yes, the issue of guy civil rights is of very great importance to me personally. Very, very important. But hungry, homeless, or sick children come first.

If we can save the economy, we can then let go of the allies we need for that job, but with whom we disagree on social issues, and go at it on the issue of gay civil rights. I'm praying that day is not to far into the future.

[AllentownJake]

19. Some people on here

think because your angry over a decision or because you are disapointed you stopped liking Barack....the world isn't black or white. You can be pissed at Obama over a decision and still support him overall.