The "underground" mentality, and the inability to get out of the pattern of indignation

[scheming daemons]

This site was set up nearly 8 years ago as a place for those that felt their government was stolen from them to vent and communicate and work to correct things.

Its very name is of a rebellious nature. "We are the underground, and we will fight to defeat the fascists who have taken over."

Outrage and attack, by necessity, became the modus operandi.

But now, we're the dog that finally caught the car.

Now what do we do?



It's hard to break out of the groupism and victimization mindset that we've operated under for 8 years.

We need something to attack...... anything.




So... we pick apart the new guy in charge for the most silly of things....

"He's naming Clinton people! Where's the change!?!?!"

"Why are there no openly gay, southern, atheist, socialist, handicapped, transgendered women on the staff!?!?!!"


Yes... I'm engaging in hyperbole. But this picking apart of everything Obama does is so damn counterproductive to our goals... to the world's goals.


When Anwar Sadat met with Menachim Begin at Camp David, many Egyptians and Arabs were more outraged than any GLBT is about Warren. From their point of view, how could he meet with the leader of a group of people that butchered his people (not just merely limited their rights)? On the other side, many Israeli's were outraged that Begin would meet with the leader of a people that used terrorist attacks to murder innocent jews. How could he?

But both Begin and Sadat were doing the right thing. You can't make any progress without talking to and working with those who represent the other side. You make progress by finding common ground and then working to change the minds of your enemies.

Mr. Begin lost his job not long afterwards.... and Mr. Sadat paid with his life. Both at the hands of their own side.



Meanwhile... while we're still called "Democratic Underground".... we're above ground now....

...and too many of us don't know how to deal with that.




We're eating our own here.... and if this keeps up and spreads, we're going to undo (or fail to even do) the progress that needs to occur.

Have we already forgotten what the past 8 years have been like?



Divided we fall.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[scheming daemons]

3. I respect your opinion, even though I don't agree with it.....

Tell me to f-off all you want.


You're proving my point, though..

[TomInTib]

9. Exactly.

There is much Deep Thought involved in telling someone to Fuck Off without explaining why.

You make a very valid point(s), and this divisiveness seems to grow worse by the day. I am seriously considering checking out of DU after the inaugural. Inter-squad fighting is so counter-productive.

Tom

[Uzybone]

20. Perfect reponse

it could not have made the OPs point more precisely.

[Speck Tater]

2. K&R Well said. To quote Obama "We need to come together." nt

[suston96]

4. Well done. The kind of post I wish I had made. nt

[IndianaJones]

5. we knocked the gays down catching that car. they're still laying back there. nt.

[reggie the dog]

47. and us folks that smoke grass like Obama used to.

we got left behind again too it seems.

[QC]

6. Well, having one's basic human rights put on the ballot and voted into oblivion

does tend to make people a bit indignant.

Why not try imagining yourself in that position and thinking about how you would feel, rather than just dismissing people's feelings on the matter.

[scheming daemons]

8. And you're going to change the minds of those that voted away your rights by doing what

you're doing here?


Softening up the likes of Rick Warren and his minions is the first step toward making that vote go your way next time.


How are you different than the Palestinian that gets indignant at his leaders meeting with he Israelis? They had more than their rights voted into oblivion.... they've had their very freedoms taken away.


They won't get anywhere without engaging the other side.


...and neither will GLBTs.

[QC]

13. And you think that you will win people over here by looking down at them

from the lofty heights of heterosexual privilege and sniffily declaring that their concerns are irrelevant and their behavior hopelessly boorish?

I merely asked you to perform a little thought experiment in empathy, a quality that you have shown remarkably little of in your years here.

Put yourself in the place of the people who are angry and ask yourself what you would do and how you would feel in such a position. Try it. It might allow you to approach this issue from a perspective other than that of political calculation.

[scheming daemons]

23. Responses

"declaring that their concerns are irrelevant and their behavior hopelessly boorish?"

A. Their concerns are NOT irrelevant, and that's precisely the point.

B. Their behavior IS boorish and is counterproductive to them getting their concerns addressed.



"Put yourself in the place of the people who are angry and ask yourself what you would do and how you would feel in such a position."

I'm an atheist, so every time a Democratic politician reaches out to religious organizations, I am put in that place.
The only people in this country besides the GLBT population that are more in "the closet" are those of us that are atheist.

Try telling a prospective employer during an interview that you're an atheist.

Try telling a man/woman on a first date that you're an atheist.

In this country, you have to pretend you're religious in order to get ahead. Yes.... atheists can marry... we DO have that capability. But in many other ways, we suffer the same discrimination that GLBTs do... and usually at the hands of the same groups of people.

The only thing worse in this country than being gay OR an atheist is to be a gay AND an atheist.

If I was a GLBT, I would be outraged over Rick Warren's anti-GLBT views.

As an atheist, I already am outraged over Rick Warren's anti-atheist views.


I'm there with you, dude.


But when you let your anger overtake your ability to see the big picture... you end up being counterproductive toward your goals.

....and believe me... taking down Obama over this is the WORST thing you could do if your goal is the advancement of GLBT rights.


There's the MLK model and there's the Malcolm X model. The MLK model works better. You're following the Malcolm X model.

It will set you back.

[DevonRex]

30. Pushing away people who agree with full civil rights for GLBTs

isn't exactly gonna help either.

[endarkenment]

40. I know how! We'll make them feel comfortable about expressing

their bigotry! That'll sure fix the problem. Great idea. I never thought of it that way. Maybe we can all help out by expressing random homophobic 'thoughts' in public places. Soon every last one of the homophobic bigots will stop feeling threatened by the possibility that their bigotry might possibly meet with disapproval. They will become much more comfortable with expressing their real feelings. Yes, by all means let us engage the other side and see if we can work out some compromise where only half of the rights they would like to remove from certain people are removed, but them gays get to keep the other half? And then perhaps we can engage those who would simply like to put the entire GLBT community in jail or perhaps to death, and work out some compromise there too. How about a quota system? Say, 10,000 gays a year put to death, and no more? 50,000 imprisoned? Only 200,000 on continuous electronic monitoring? We could work with the Huckabee style bigots on that whole quarantine thing, perhaps we could compromise on the location of the concentration camps?

[nichomachus]

45. Nonsense

Tell me when capitulating to the radical religious right has ever changed their attitude. They see it as a sign of weakness and they increase their demands. They only back down when you go after them, as is happening now in CA. The churches are yelping like beaten dogs because they are being held accountable for their hate.

If the gays and lesbians had just said, Oh, gee, we really don't like Prop H8, but please have some hot cocoa, they would be back tomorrow to take away more rights.

Power to the Christians is a drug, and giving them the drug only increases the addiction.

[kenfrequed]

51. Too true. Too true.

It is wrong to capitulate to fundamentalists for any reason. They never stop trying to grab more or push more. And they never vote for liberals.

So lets see:
Idealistically- absurdly bad. So bad it must be a joke or something.

Pragmatically- (so popular a word these days) absolutely pointless giving this guy the stage accomplishes nothing useful, ergo it isn't really pragamtic fo any reason.

Politcally- Piss poor strategy. Again, fundies don't vote for baby aborting, communist, socialist, gay, atheist, NEA kissing liberals. Invite them over for tea all you want, these damned Christo-facists are going to vote repuke everytime. Cowing to them now gives them a credence that is rapidly waning even in some quarters of their own damned party. Use your damned head and ignore them. This time they probably WILL dry up and blow away.

[Indiana_Dem]

7. Thank you & rec'd. eom

[LoZoccolo]

10. I think it's a larger, Internet-based thing.

I'd go to Democratic-related meetings in Chicago and find that barely anyone knew of Democratic Underground (and if you'd like to go too, follow the link in my signature for Illinois Dem Net, or Democratic Party Meetup Groups!). On the flip side, I'd post threads here asking what people are doing for the election and they would sink. The Internet lets you feel like you are doing something when you are not. And it's more engaging to bitch than to say how good things are. And argue.

Here's a post I posted about it which got locked:

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/LoZoccolo/3

[mahina]

11. Will keep fighting for equal rights, and agree. K and R.

[yardwork]

12. If you think that human rights are silly, you are pathetic.

[thewiseguy]

16. agreed.

[scheming daemons]

25. If you think bringing Obama down over Warren's prayer advances your rights, YOU are pathetic.

[thewiseguy]

29. We are bringing Obama down? You are pathetic for thinking like that.

Shooting down criticism on DU?

[scheming daemons]

31. There's criticism and then there's criticism.

Letting Obama know you're disappointed in one of his decisions is appropriate.


Calling him a homophobe, a bigot, or worse is not. (and many have done just that).

[thewiseguy]

33. He deserves to get heat for this. Some of his apologists here on DU can not handle that.

That is the real sad story here.

[scheming daemons]

34. Thankfully, I'm quite sure that Obama himself CAN handle it......

...and I'm convinced he has the big picture in mind.

[Generator]

35. Oh God that mindset is what creeps me out about DU post

election. Bringing Obama down? ARE you kidding? Is that the purpose of "good Democrats" -I notice the one that posted that phrase posts on every thread about what an outrage it is that we aren't kissing Obama's ass over everything. DAMN we should be grateful because uh why? I'll be grateful the day Obama does something and while he's doing things that are antithetical to my principals as a Democrat I will say so. YEAH AND SO FAR he has done things. So don't start that whining about he hasn't even been in office yet.

His first acts are appointing his cabinet-people that will affect our lives for years to come. That is something and it's something extremely important.


See it's not about OBAMA. It's about people. IT's about GAY people. It's about POOR people. It's about soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan. If he pisses on them by his policies and who he appoints and who he legitimizes-then those that care about people and not OBAMA have a duty to speak up and kick his ass. It's not about laying down in worship that we finally won the White House. Until policies are changed and Obama keeps a promise then we haven't GAINED anything.

[yardwork]

37. You are hysterical. You sound like teh Bush 20 %

Your efforts at intimidation will not shut me up.

[scheming daemons]

39. intimidation? LOL.... I'm pretty sure I'm not capable of intimidating you.

....and I'm also very curious about your definition of intimidation....

[yardwork]

41. We finally agree on something.

You are not capable of intimidating me.

[Odin2005]

48. If you think hate and vitriol advance human rights then YOU are pathetic.

[infidel dog]

14. right on

Words of wisdom, Brah. I hope they will be considered by many.

[S_E_Fudd]

15. Bingo...nt

[firedupdem]

17. Great Post and well written....

I think some are legitimately hurt by this decision and there are some that are egging on the outrage and feeling rather giddy seeing people hurt. Divided we fail and fall is right.

[DevonRex]

18. I feel like I'm feel like I'm getting pushed off this board, and I'm for full civil rights

for GLBTs. I don't like the Warren choice. I see why it was made. I would rather he had not been selected no matter what the intention was.

[Fleshdancer]

19. I disagree

As an American, I think it's my job to hold my government accountable. I have the right to do so and I take it very seriously regardless of how small others may think an issue is.

The whole blind faith concept toward any politician makes no sense to me.

[RandomKoolzip]

21. Choosing Rick Warren to speak exhibits clear homophobia and is a slap in the face

to women, to the GLBT community, and those in the straight male community who fight for and alongside the formentioned groups. Period. I'm tired of the human rights of ANYONE being relegated or reduced to some political abstraction, some token on a game board. THESE ARE PEOPLE'S LIVES. I don't give a shit about Begin and Sadat - people here, on this supposedly lefty, progressive board, need to feel some empathy for its members who have had their rights taken away, and stop scheming and plotting for political advantage.

The other side? Fuck 'em. Let's start taking care of our own first and acknowledging their existence.

[RaleighNCDUer]

38. Not to get technical, but you had no right taken away.

You're in Illinois, which has never granted the right to gay marriage.

Did you lose the right to move to California to get married? I suppose; but you still have the right to move to Massachusetts and marry, which is much closer anyway.

The REAL goal is eliminating DOMA, which Obama has pledged to do. Why not let him get in office and do his job before despairing?

[RandomKoolzip]

42. Well, to get REALLY technical, I'm straight.

So, no, *I* had none of my rights taken away. I have friends whom i love and care about, however, who have now been relegated to second-class citizen status due to Prop 8. This pisses me off.

BTW, the right to marry (which is a HUMAN right) ought to extend geographically to the whole damn country.

[RaleighNCDUer]

43. Yes, it should. And unless DOMA is overturned, it cannot be.

Gotta keep your eyes on the prize, and not get distracted by little shit. State by state will not work, and will never work unless the federal government eliminates the obstacles at the top. THAT is Obama's job. And to do that job he will need to CONVINCE at least some of those who voted for Prop 8. The reason Prop 8 was as successful as it was, was because people felt that gay marriage was being imposed by the courts.

In the civil rights struggle, the courts did not mandate change. They upheld change made in federal law. THAT is where the battle must be fought.

Sun Tzu said you must always fight from your strength, attacking the enemy's weakness. Our strength is the constitution. THAT is where we need to fight. Try to fight in the churches, and you are fighting in the enemy's strength. Bob and weave, marginalize Warren and his entire movement by giving them the semblance of consideration with this meaningless 2 minutes - then take the issue to the Supreme Court, and rule on the constitutionality of Prop 8. Overturn DOMA. Stike DADT (the equivalent of integrating the Armed Forces under Truman).

Tactics. Not rage.

[Cali_Democrat]

22. Great post

Thank you for putting into words what I was thinking.

[Asgaya Dihi]

24. Forgot the past eight years? Probably.

I fully agree we've got deep problems but I see the source of them a bit differently. In the end the problems of the last eight years can be attributed to a party and a nation that moved too much in lockstep and was too afraid to question. Our party, theirs, both of them really.

The repubs who were out of power on occasion expressed doubts but they were too few, often too late, and as I said mostly the ones with little to lose for it. The ones with a stake kept quiet and went along even when they knew it was wrong.

We did too though. We voted for the war, for compromise bills on wiretaps and immunity for torture, for all kinds of things on the blind trust that in some way we had to do it to win elections and we'd get around to fixing it later.

Well, it's later now and we don't seem to have learned a thing. Obama I still have some faith in and hope to see some results out of but some of his supporters seem to have learned the wrong lessons from the last few years. When something concerns us we're SUPPOSED to say something about it, when we're concerned about an appointment or a statement in a speech, or an invocation, we're not only allowed to speak out but it's our duty to do so. If we're quiet and the other side keeps speaking up that just leaves him with the wrong impressions of where the country wants to go. If we (as a party) had done more of that over the last few years maybe things wouldn't have gone so far. The repubs can block bills but we can't or won't, they fight anyone and everyone in their way but we only attack our own.

When we call our own concern trolls, when we tell them to be quiet and not get in the way, when we try to disregard their concerns just because we don't agree or see the same things we're proving nothing less than that we learned all the wrong lessons from the last eight years. That's how much of the nation treated us too, how did we like it? Obama has asked for our input and opinions, he seems to think he can take it. I just wish his more devoted supporters could too.

[jaysunb]

26. " But now, we're the dog that finally caught the car.

Well, Ive been here all 8 of the "underground" years and I've always wondered what would happen when we finally were able to "surface."

I can't say I'm surprised, after all, we are Democrats. :shrug:

BTW, one of the things Obama ran on was change. That change included giving voice to all sides. Listening does not equal agreement.

Good post. K & R

[yurbud]

27. voicing our opinions is not the same as undermining Obama--he needs to know effects of his actions

so he doesn't commit the classic Democrat mistake of pissing on his base.

[Radical Activist]

28. In general.

Yeah, in general terms I think you make a good point. People are stuck in a rut attacking Obama with the same technique and mindset they attacked Bush and Clinton with. Most activists have never had the experience of a liberal President before and we need to adjust our tactics.

But this Warren thing is still pretty dumb and it sets the guy up to be the next Billy Graham. There are ways to reach out to him and evangelicals without giving him such a prominent spot at the inauguration.

[scheming daemons]

32. Maybe this helps change the minds of Warren and his followers... albeit slowly....

I'm not saying it is a great move..... it may even deserve criticism.


But some of the shit going on here is ridiculous.

[nichomachus]

36. Maybe it's that some people don't really feel they're "above ground" as you claim

Maybe it's because people feel that they are still being victimized by political expediency and that "hope you can believe in" was just the way they got suckered into a losing game.

We all celebrated on election night because we thought we had elected a man of principle. Then, we woke up and discovered a man with no loyalty, except his own political expediency.

That kind of ruffles people's feather.

So, some people feel like they're still underground.

[QC]

44. Like I said above, things look very different when viewed from

the heights of heterosexual privilege.

[Jennicut]

52. What privilege? The right to be married? Seriously overrated.

Please don't flame me, its just a joke. But marriage sure has not been what is all cracked up to be for me anyways. Lets just say we have had our share of problems.

[PVnRT]

46. I guess only we need to reach out. Not them.

All of us have to shut and get in line, quit complaining, etc.

The fucking hypocrisy here is starting to make me ill.

[kenfrequed]

49. At least you admit it.

But I would say hasty generalizations, marginalizing, and hyperbole are a hell of a lot more damaging to the progressive movement than our occasionally bitching about the administration.

[lostnotforgotten]

50. So Eliminating Bigotry, Discrimination, and Racism Is Unworthy Of Those At DU?

eom