No common ground to bigots!

[Scriptor Ignotus]

p.s. 99% of this country is bigoted against somebody.

I bet half of DU (at least) has an intellectual prejudice against anyone from the south or from a deep rural area. Or anyone who happens to be a Republican (it's a choice!). Or anyone who voted for Bush in 2000.

No common ground you say! No consensus! They are the enemy!

OK brutha. Do it your way. Bitch and moan about how wrong these people are. Piss yourself over Rick Warren's prayer to his invisible anti-gay god that doesn't even exist anyway. Meanwhile, Obama will give about 20-40 million conservative Christian registered voters pause by bringing in Warren. Maybe Obama gets a few of them to loosen their puritan collars a bit, and rethink their world view by this act alone, let alone the other concessions he will inevitably make to the religious right over the next 4 years. Maybe he wins again in 2012 because of his ability to reach out to homophobes and bigots and pro-lifers. Maybe pro-gay legislation slowly gets passed county by county, state by state. Maybe other progressive reforms are enacted as well. Maybe the entire progressive movement is able to advance, and advance in fundamental and significant ways, because Obama is willing to engage people he does not agree with.

This is the first black man to get elected in America. I kind of think he knows what he's doing. But hey, you're smart. You're on the Internet and can type in all caps. I could be wrong.

[laconicsax]

1. This should be fun

:popcorn:

[Speck Tater]

2. Here here! Reminds me of the shrub's attitude about ...

talking to world leaders he disagreed with. Hatred is not defeated by more hatred. Exclusion is not defeated with more exclusion. We need to open the channels of communication between EVERYBODY, so we can find common ground and build from there. You don't change someone's mind, or win them over by treating them as second-class citizens to be shunned. Lead by example, not by exacting political revenge. That's the game THEY play. Let's show them a better way. Let's invite them in and win them over, not shut them out and push them into hardening their stance.

[laconicsax]

12. There's a world of difference between not talking to someone and giving them a platform.

* did the first, Obama does the second.

[BootinUp]

30. A platform?

You think the guy is going to say something about gay marriage up there?

[laconicsax]

39. Honestly, it doesn't matter what he talks about. What matters is what he has consistently said.

Warren represents the rampant homophobic bigotry in this country and Obama has endorsed him as someone who he respects.

The old expression goes 'a man is known by the company he keeps' and Obama has chosen, again, to invite a bigot into his company.

[Odin2005]

32. I said the same thing in another thread.

If there was dialogue between the GLBT community and evangelicals many of the evangelicals will come to see that gays are real people and not tools of Satan or whatever BS they are taught by their preachers.

[Runcible Spoon]

3. hardcore fundies are not oing to support Obama because Warren gave the invocation

they're not exactly the kind of believers who are goin to be swayed. This has been proven over and over and over again in elections at every level of government. At best, Obama is wasting his time. At worst, he is alienating some of his most ardent supporters over this.

[Moderate Dem]

14. My girlfriend's family are all Southern Baptists

But not at all "hardcore fundies", and not prejudiced against gays, but they tend to vote Republican a lot. THOSE are the kind of people that Obama can win over. It's never, ever about the extremes.

[Scriptor Ignotus]

24. thank heavens

yes, this is my point. these are the people we can win over. it's not friggin rocket science.

[Scriptor Ignotus]

23. yea fundies will never be swayed

except when they are.

here is a tip for you - not every person who listens to Warren or Olsteen is a zombie-like fundie. You prove my point by exposing your bigotry towards the faithful.

[Runcible Spoon]

29. oh please, I'm certainly not talking about all people of faith

and not even all of those of extremist, fundamentalist sects. I have no problems with anyone's faith, even if they believe in things that make me cringe. I don't think that hatemongers deserve a national platform at a presidential inauguration, however.

And no, you're NOT going to change the vast majority of their minds. They say so themselves. How is that bigotry?

Being progressive and liberal does not mean we have to sing kumbaya with every whacked out Dominionist under the sun. Live and let live; unfortunately, many of those people want to infringe on my rights by forcing their beliefs into law.

Who are the bigots again?

Enjoy your faux martyrdom.

[Odin2005]

34. How do you know their minds can't be changed? n/t

[Runcible Spoon]

37. because I have a lot of them in my family

Sure, perhaps a few will "see the light" but for fuck's sake how much time and effort needs to be put into mollycoddling bigots when we could be pushing forward with the progress of the country? I don't try with those in my family anymore. It's not worth the headache.

If the national mood changes enough, fundies will have to adapt or become ostracized.

[Odin2005]

41. You can't change the minds of all of them at once.

Just as with racism, changing minds to as to reject homophobia is not something that can be done in a day. Look at Senator Byrd. He used to be a hard core KKKer, today he is a racist no longer.

People CAN change.

[Runcible Spoon]

42. sure people can change.

But giving visibility to one of their most dispicable leaders who uses his pulpit to perpetuate hatred, fear, and intolerance is NOT how it's going to happen.

Sure, Bird changed. But for a lot of other bigots, it's going to take sweeping equal rights initiatives to normalize things like gay rights to drag them kicking and screaming into the 21st C.

[Odin2005]

44. All I'm trying to say is that these things can't happen overnight.

Fighting for civil rights has to be about changing minds, mind by mind. Our politicians who write the laws and appoint the judges must have the support of voters, otherwise it will never happen.

[phantom power]

4. I'll go on record...

Obama will not win any significant number of these people over. It's not how they think. If that's what Obama is thinking, I say he is wrong.

We'll see how my hypothesis holds up over the next four years.

[Runcible Spoon]

5. exactly. The only way Obama could make any headway with those groups..;

would be by passing sweeping legislation AGAINST gay marriage, abortion, sex education, etc. I certainly hope nobody thinks that would be prudent.

Fuck fundies, they have PLENTY of politicians "reaching out" to them. Time Obama starts reaching out to the Left for a while...

[gravity]

7. He just needs to win over the moderates

[Runcible Spoon]

9. well he can do that with the 99% of cabinet choices he has made

Warren isn't going to do jack-shit for moderates, either.

edited for clarity

[we can do it]

10. Rick Warren Is Not Even Close To Being Moderate In ANy Way

try again?

[gravity]

19. He is on other issues

[KittyWampus]

15. the FACT he won in several blue states already has proven you wrong.

[phantom power]

16. How's that?

[Scriptor Ignotus]

27. you know how the fundies think ?

tell me, how do the gays think? what about the blacks?

[Runcible Spoon]

36. sure, I'll tell you how these fundies think.

They equate gay marriage with bestiality and incest. They think 9/11 was punishment for the sins of gays and abortion practitioners. They believe I am going to Hell because I have no accepted Jesus as my Lord and personal Savior.

You know how I know that? BECAUSE THEY SAID IT, THEY SAY IT CONSTANTLY. On TV, in the papers, in pamphlets all over the bus, and now on the fucking platform with the next President of the United States.

As far as how the gays and blacks think, ethnicity and sexual orientation is a whole goddamn lot different than religion. There is no Bible for being gay or black that I'm aware of, no convenient Scriptural interpretation to get all of the lambs in the flock to come together. Creating consensus in these communities, as with many others, requires activism and dialogue since there is a lot of individual ideological leanings within a given group. It's not controversial to say that fundamentalist Christian sects are well-known for their tight cohesion and unified modes of thinking. It is deliberately indoctrinated, it is what makes them powerful, and it not a fucking secret.

[Scriptor Ignotus]

38. you know very well what point i was making

no group is so easy to peg down. the "fundies" you define are an odious lot and yes they certainly exist.

but Warren influences tens of millions of people in this country. Are those tens of millions of people ALL the "fundies" as you define them? of course not. and that's who Obama is targeting.

You think he gives a fuck about whackjobs like Phelps?

[jberryhill]

49. This is the same thing they do - holding up the Folsom Festival as "representative"

...of what it means to be gay.

Two decades ago, I was one of those fundies. Gaining broader experience with people turned that around.

I know you are wrong about both the range of opinion in their circles and the capacity for change within a good chunk - but not all - of them.

There was a point in time at which they also considered inter-racial marriage to be an abomination. It's pretty common among them now. How do you 'spose that happened?

They do change. And, yes, there is and always will be a residue of slime that retreats into a compound in Idaho or whatever, but you hold the worst examples up as representative of the lot of them.

And, guess what, 10% of them have gay children. MOST - but not all - of them love their kids. Some things even a religious mania can't penetrate.

[Runcible Spoon]

50. Do you have any idea how many homeless teens are GLBT?

please excuse me if I don't go clapping for joy because a few bigots turned themselves around. As I said before, the best way to reach them is to push through equal rights legislation, normalize the fact that GAY PEOPLE WANT MARRIAGE AND FAMILIES. It's NOT going to happen because Obama decided to give increased visibility to one of the most despicable of their leaders.

Honestly, I could give a fuck if fundies aren't reached out to. They choose to exclude themselves, or not. Nobody is infringing on their rights, nobody is planning to. I don't see anyone reaching out to the KKK, either. Is homophobia any less reprehensible than racism?

[phantom power]

40. Yes, I think I do...

FarceOfNature already said it rather well. There is no bible for being black, or gay. There is a bible for being a fundie. By definition, fundies organize their world view around a single book, written 1500 years before the enlightenment even got started. The go to authoritarian churches led by demagogues like Rick Warren, who tell them the left wing of this country is the tool of Satan.

So yes, I feel pretty comfortable predicting that Obama isn't going to get any help from the Rick Warren constituency, no matter how much he panders to them.

However, I'm going to get a chance to see whether I'm right or wrong, since Obama is obviously going to try reaching out, regardless of my opinions. I think of it as a kind of experiment.

[Scriptor Ignotus]

45. when did Rick Warren ever say the left was the tool of Satan?

and why would Rick Warren invite Obama to come speak at his church if that's how he truly felt?

[WeDidIt]

6. These people have proven time and again, they will not brook compromise

there is no reasoning with them.

There is only battling them.

It's war. They declared it. I intend to finish it.

[SidneyCarton]

20. Finish it ? How?

[Solon]

25. Hmm...Probably by killing off all gay people and their supporters...

Wouldn't surprise me, some of these, ahem, partisans are really crazy.

[SidneyCarton]

43. I somewhat doubt that is what the poster had in mind...

But if it was then he is a fool, a dangerous fool.

[WeDidIt]

47. Uh, no

The war was started by te right wing theocrats like Warren.

[Odin2005]

35. Your kind of thinking is part of the problem.

Your mindset is no better then theirs.

[WeDidIt]

48. War was declared on me in 1992

I've been fighting it ever since.

Sorry, when somebody decalres war on you, there is no choice but to fight back.

[Lilith Velkor]

53. Abso-fucking-loutely

:thumbsup:

[Fleshdancer]

8. Belittle it all you want, but this is how groups gain their civil rights

I feel like a broken record at this point, but I'll say it again:

The gay rights movement is doing EXACTLY what we SHOULD be doing.

Civil rights aren't granted when a group decides to not protest an injustice. History has taught us this time and time again. Why wouldn't civil rights advocates not voice their opinions about this? How does that make ANY sense?

[nichomachus]

11. No, because they never loosen their collars

You can't appease them. You toss them one bone and they want another. Do you know anything about history. The right-wing Christian MO is to take and take and take and then demand more and more and more.

You cannot appease them any more than you can appease a drug addict by giving him more drugs.

[Sebastian Doyle]

13. Aw fuck it! Let's just embrace all the bigots and invite them all to the party!!111!!!

Anybody got a light??

[Malikshah]

17. Stick and move much? Well...after reading the twisted logic that leaves

out the perspective of the persecuted, I can't blame you....

[SidneyCarton]

18. Good post, well said.

:popcorn:

Unfortunately reason is not necessarily considered a virtue on this board, outrage is so much more fun.

but K&R for reasonable thought and discourse.

[phantom power]

21. I'm curious -- what political goals is this supposed to help him achieve?

Is it going to help him fix the economy? Is it going to help him combat climate change? Or end the Iraq war? Is pandering to the "Warren demographic" necessary to achieve any of these goals? Will it even make any of those goals easier?

Isn't that what "reaching out" is supposed to be about? Getting real things done more effectively? I don't see where he gets traction that way. I don't see the Warren's audience agreeing to help him on climate change, or universal health care, or government demand-side stimulus. They don't believe in most of those things.

[LooseWilly]

51. I suspect the logic has to do with establishing a "civil tone".

Make nice with the religious loons (ok, I'm willing to embrace my anti-religious-nut bigotry...) and it might make them less eager to form up as troops to oppose whatever programs Obama wants to work on. It may not win them over. It might not need to actually convert them though... just blunting the knee-jerk right vs left fighting spirit might be seen as being worth the hassle from the left.
It might be all that it takes to make the sort of real progress that Clinton never seemed to manage, maybe partly because the right was able to so self-righteously organize and oppose him at every turn.

Or maybe I'm giving Obama too much benefit of the doubt...

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

22. K&R with gusto!

[Critters2]

26. Winning fundies. Losing glbts. It's a matter of priorities, I guess.

I don't share these priorities.

[Scriptor Ignotus]

28. OBAMA HATES THE GAYS OMG!!1111!!!

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/detail?blogid=14&entry_id=33670&type=gaylesbian

[Scriptor Ignotus]

55. can you really pass same sex marriage laws

in southern states without "winning fundies"?

you lose fundies, you lose glbt rights.

[Odin2005]

31. I've been thinking pretty much the same thing.

[Bobbie Jo]

33. Bigot:

bigot
One entry found.


Main Entry: big·ot
Pronunciation: \ˈbi-gət\
Function: noun
Date: 1660
: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices ; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with
hatred and intolerance
— big·ot·ed \-gə-təd\ adjective
— big·ot·ed·ly adverb


Apparently, this shoe fits more than one foot. Try it on and see.

Note to OP: Not directed to you specifically....

[LooseWilly]

52. Hmm, here's another definition.

noun

Irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular group, race, or religion: intolerance, prejudice. See like/dislike.

http://www.answers.com/topic/bigotry

That shoe fits my foot alright. The stupid. The bigotted (including me myself, in an unfortunate catch-22). Crappy drivers. "Greedheads", as Hunter S. Thompson called them. And probably some others.


The irony?... it is only when I let go of my "irrational suspicion or hatred" that I actually become un-bigotted and am therefore able to not hate myself.
Hmm... is that logically a justification for inviting Warren to the inauguration?

Ehhh, fuck it. Let's just go with the irrational suspicion and/or hatred.

(Hmm, is it really irrational suspicion though?, if he's demonstrated behavior that raises suspicions? Maybe hating Rick Warren isn't bigotry after all, just hating his followers...)

Damned logic.

[NJmaverick]

46. There is an irony in acting bigoted why calling others bigoted

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Marrah_G]

56. I bet you aren't one of the targets of Warren's activism- just a guess

:puke:

This topic has brought out people's true colors.