Some On DU Think Bigots Should Be Shunned Or Treated In Kind-

[KittyWampus]

That doesn't seem constructive. Shunning (denying another's existence) is a form of violence in itself and returning bad behavior perpetuates the problems.

I totally get the anger and the need to vent spleen on this forum.

But some people do express the intent on pursuing the strategies of shunning and demonizing/intimidating bigots in real life.

Social Justice is a goal most of us on DU really want to work towards. But that work isn't easy and involves dealing with other Americans who are simply NOT as intellectually and emotionally evolved as we are.

That means putting up with, constantly reaching out to and ultimately working with people are whose ignorance causes them to make ALL our lives miserable.

Simply repressing anger can lead to problems but to keep spurring it on is corrosive.

The ideal for those who want to engage constructively changing society for the better is to transform anger into determination and desire for change.

There is ALWAYS Common Ground, no matter how small a piece of real estate it may be, and that is the starting point for working with those who are misguided and recalcitrant.

“The strong man is not the one who can wrestle another to the ground; the strong man is the one who can control himself when he is angry.”

[BostonMa]

1. fail

[Maven]

2. DOUBLE FAIL

[polichick]

3. There's quite a distance between shunned and elevated to a place of honor.

[Fresh_Start]

11. seconded

though apparently Warren would like to imprison gays (since he equated gay marriage to pedophilia and incest).
Perhaps he agrees with that shunning would be an evil thing to do

[Bluebear]

4. "Shunning is a form of violence" - No, Matt Shepard was a form of violence.

[KittyWampus]

8. they both are

[Bluebear]

10. Do tell how not inviting Warren to speak would be "violent"?

:eyes:

[Maven]

29. No, they're not even CLOSE, and you're completely off your fucking rocker.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

46. Is Rick Warren dead? Because Matthew Shepard is.

[w4rma]

5. Be careful about letting people like that use you, then. They will do it if given the chance. (nt)

[KittyWampus]

13. A lot of DU'ers seem perfectly happy using bigotry as an excuse to engage in like behavior

[Starbucks Anarchist]

15. How is it bigotry to despise Warren's *voluntary* beliefs?

[KittyWampus]

23. A willingness to try and find Common Ground and gradually enable bigots to open their minds

is the Goal.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

24. You didn't answer my question.

How is it bigotry to despise Warren's homophobic (among other things) views?

And someone as far gone as him will NEVER come around on GLBT issues, no matter how hard we try.

[eridani]

52. Or sending in the National Guard like at Little Rock

Get them by the legal short hairs, and their minds and hearts will follow.

[jberryhill]

42. Voluntary?

It is an illusion to think that beliefs are chosen.

Try this experiment:

Pick something you believe to be true - anything - something trivial even.

Now, believe the opposite.

I'll make it even better. I will pay you a million dollars to believe something that won't interfere with any of your other beliefs...

If you decide to believe, and I mean truly believe, that there is a dollar bill buried five feet beneath the surface of mars, then I'll pay you a million dollars.

No cheating. Get back to me when you sincerely believe that.

The only way people change their beliefs is to be convinced or persuaded otherwise. Nobody wakes up one morning and says, "Today I'll believe in X".

[Starbucks Anarchist]

43. Was he born thinking gays are sinful?

No? Well, then it's a voluntary belief with no empirical evidence to support it.

There's a huge difference between "belief" and "fact." Beliefs may or may not actually be empirically true, but facts (evolution, for example) are always supported by the evidence.

[jberryhill]

44. No, no, no... I wasn't suggesting beliefs were inherent - they CAN change

But beliefs do not change as an act of will. What one starts out with as, say, a young adult, can be the result of a variety of influences accumulated by that point.

That's why engagement, dialogue and persuasion are important.

Senator Byrd was a KKK member. He didn't wake up one morning and change his mind like putting on a different pair of pants.

Evangelical positions can and do change. There is always a residue of nitwits and significant exceptions, but you can take something like inter-racial marriage. Loving v. Virginia didn't change what they believe on that score. These days, however, the bulk of evangelicals would consider someone who opposes "race mixing" as underdeveloped. Part of that change is the result of their engagement in charitable mission work that forces them to deal with a wider world.

To take a concrete example - Bob Jones University. When they were a backwater insular christian university, nobody paid much mind to their bizarre racial policies. When rightwing Christians became prominent in the GOP, and were subject to greater public scrutiny and comment, their racial practices were also subject to a lot of attention. While they appreciated the publicity in one respect, they also had to deal with the withering commentary on their racial attitudes, which does and did inspire some introspection:

http://www.bju.edu/about/race.html

On national television in March 2000, Bob Jones III, who was the university’s president until 2005, stated that BJU was wrong in not admitting African-American students before 1971, which sadly was a common practice of both public and private universities in the years prior to that time. On the same program, he announced the lifting of the University’s policy against interracial dating.


Now, I'm not patting them on the back for realizing - in 2000 - that they had been wrong on that issue for far too long. I'm just pointing out that engagement in the larger culture brought attention to bear on their policies. If they hadn't become a campaign stop - and liability - for GOP candidates, there would have been no reason for them to change.

One of the reasons why Catholics, as a group but not necessarily as an institution, tend to be more liberal than evangelicals is because of the significant engagement that Catholics have in charitable social work. You feed enough hungry people in a soup kitchen, and you eventually figure out that hungry people are hungry people, and their religious convictions on one point or another are not as important as "How do we get people fed?"

I can be absolutely wrong and misguided on this, but Rick Warren has been urging evangelicals to exercise more engagement in concern about the environment, poverty, and AIDS. What knee-jerk wingnuts perceive in that, correctly, is those sorts of things lead to engagement with others who do not share other beliefs of that community, which leads to a broader self-examination of the type that can, and does, change beliefs.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

45. That still amounts to a "wait and see" approach.

Yes, a handful of troglodytes may see the light, but it is not incumbent on gay people to wait on them, particularly when Warren and his ilk have already attacked first -- Prop 8, for example.

[jberryhill]

47. Not "wait"... "work"... Expose to public scrutiny and discussion

I have a feeling that the entire fiasco might inspire some reflection on Warren's part of those things he said and not in the "Gosh I wish I didn't say that" sort of way.

I could also be a complete and total idiot.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

51. He already fired the first shot.

He and his like-minded idiots don't get a second chance.

[eridani]

53. What came first, the Civil Rights Act, or Bob Jones' change of heart? n/t

[Sebastian Doyle]

6. FUCK bigotry.

It's the goddamn 21st century. There is NO EXCUSE for this shit anymore. No justification. No accomodation. No compromise with bigots.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[marylanddem]

9. "Shunning" people with bad, hurtful, destructive behaviors or

vibes is a healthy thing.

[Bluebear]

12. HEAR, HEAR.

:applause:

[anigbrowl]

25. Fundie Xtians think so too...

they just have a different opinion about what's 'bad, hurtful, destructive behaviors or vibes'. I don't think absolutism produces good results most of the time, no matter how well-founded it might seem. Of course, that approach leads to weird and uncomfortable compromises, like Robert Byrd for example....but I believe it works out better in the long run. Basically, I don't subscribe to the philosophy of 'the end justifies the means'. Politics, famously, makes strange bedfellows.

[thewiseguy]

14. Another Obama apologist...

:rofl:

[Toasterlad]

16. Historic Fail

How did black people get their rights in this country? Do you know? I'll give you a hint: it wasn't by reaching out and having a dialogue with the KKK.

[EFerrari]

17. Reaching out to authoritarians usually results in getting your hand slapped.

[scheming daemons]

32. Ghandi wouldn't agree with you.

[LaydeeBug]

18. Look, hon, *YOU* be the one to "reach out" to the KKK, cuz as far as *I'm* concerned

they can go take a flying leap. And, yes, I'm saying it. Barack Obama "reaching out" to that homophobic, xenophobic bigot and hater extraordinaire is akin to doing EXACTLY that.

[JohnnieGordon]

19. If inclusiveness with bigots is so important, where's the avowed racist in the Inaugural lineup?

I wouldn't recommend holding your breath waiting for Obama's inclusiveness to extend to leaders of the KKK.

That means putting up with, constantly reaching out to and ultimately working with people are whose ignorance causes them to make ALL our lives miserable."

Yes, well where's the racists, hon? Nowhere to be found given legitimacy at an official Obama event, like McClurkin was and now Warren will be. Which makes you and Obama hypocrites.

[jgraz]

20. Yes, we do. And we're right.

We have major, serious problems to solve. Trying to find common ground with these chunks of human filth is a waste of time and resources. Fuck them.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

21. Not all bigots are the same

Some are products of isolation and lack of education. Warren has access to resources and knowledge and CHOOSES to remain bigotted.

[Mass]

22. I may have missed the threads. I saw a lot of people justly unhappy that Warren

will be giving the invocation (I am one of those, as there is a large step between talking to Warren and giving him this type of honor). If this is what you call shunning, I am for shunning him.

Otherwise, can you point out to what shunning is.

Finding common ground with somebody like Warren on gay marriage or privacy rights, is like finding common ground with the segregationists during the Civil Rights movement. You can try to change people mind by information and education. There is no point spending time to change their leaders mind.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

34. would you however be willing to work with Warren on fighting aids or poverty?

That is what Obama is talking about with common ground

Try to find something they do that you agree with and work to make that better, one can disagree with a lot of people on many subjects and still work with em on those that are important to both

[katandmoon]

26. GMAFB

[Warren DeMontague]

27. Yes. Not giving dude a pulpit sanctioned by the new President, in front of billions of people

amounts to "shunning".

Why, if he doesn't do this invocation, he'll have to go and live in a cave somewhere! Sure, a cave with high-speed internet so he can stay in touch with the publisher of his best-selling books, but a cave nonetheless! Rick Warren will be ostracized from the world! Oh, the humanity!!!

[davidpdx]

28. I think the word "bigot" is tossed around like a 5 cent word

here in DU. People are quick to assume.

Reminds me of what my math teacher said in the 10th grade:

Assuming makes an ass out of you and me.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lostnotforgotten]

30. Bigots Should Be Outed Not Shunned - Expose Their Hypocrisy To The Light Of Day

eom

[Critters2]

33. Putting up with people, and giving them a place of honor are two different things. nt

[loyalsister]

35. I know a guy who has an opinion on that

He grew up in an Amish community. He and I talked about Obama's campaign quite a bit. He talked about how impressed he was by Obama's commitment to meet with enemies. He talked about how the Amish community treats people- formally shunning those who do not meet their standards and how the results are negative all around.

[yowzayowzayowza]

36. To teach or condem?

Rather than castigating our ally and personally attacking the bigot, the interest of exposing the humanity of our position would be better served by directly confronting the immorality already supported by our ally, yet avoiding the dehumanization of our adversary.

Condemnation is certainly deserved and feels good, but is contrary to the interest of convincing open-minded respecters of liberty over their faith-based abhorrence of our position.

Obama has teed this up perfectly. Yet we're making this about him and Warren personally rather than the immorality of Warrenz position. Thus Warren is coming off looking more civil and reasonable. We're tearing down our ally and looking fractious to boot. Politically stupid on OUR part, not Obamas.

2 cents.

[Solon]

37. What the fuck is with this blame the victim shit?

First the passage of Prop 8 was the Gays fault, now the outrage over this is too? Obama could have AVOIDED this issue entirely, and NOT LOST ANYTHING, if he actually didn't invite this guy to say the Invocation. Jesus fucking Christ, it really is that fucking simple.

[yowzayowzayowza]

39. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Itz politics, suggest one of these.

[Solon]

41. Just about what I expect out of you. n/t

[Kahuna]

38. I agree. Everything else that GLBT activists have tried has failed..

Everything has to be a "fight." Reverend Dr. King knew that you could not win hearts and minds by being contentious. I think Obama learned that lesson from him.

[yowzayowzayowza]

40. Obama is lookin for a tag-team judo partner.

We've showed up to bare knuckle brawl with ANY and EVERYONE!!!!

[last1standing]

48. After you lose your job for being too 'straight acting' I want to see how strong you are.

You'd be on this site crying like a baby about how your rights were taken away. Well, we never got them to begin with and we're sick of people like you telling us to shut up.

[SidneyCarton]

49. K&R

But forget about it, the posters here want catharsis, and we may as well let them have it. Let them learn from experience that Gandhi was right, and an eye for an eye truly achieves nothing but making both sides blind.

[snooper2]

50. Robert Byrd

nt