Never thought anybody could get one up on Obama, but I guess Dr. Dean did.

[Guaranteed]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8071630&mesg_id=8071634

I tend to agree with polichik.

Don't get me wrong- I love both of these guys. But, man- Dean should definitely be getting more credit than this, if not his own ticker-tape parade.

The dude was THE leader of the Democratic Party for the past six years, in one form or another, when no one else wanted the job. He dug us out of the shithole we were in, setting the tone. And, yeah, the 50-state-strategy was great, but what he did was so much more than that.

He made sure our culture didn't become irrevocably pro-Iraq-War by speaking up against it when it was not easy to do. He set the tone for the elections of 2004 (which we really should have won), 2006 AND 2008.

Could Obama be jealous of Dean's leadership? Or do you think it's just Emanuel (whose brother, Zeke, I heard just today is "on tour" trashing single-payer healthcare)?

Or...is Obama really DLC?

I still don't believe that last one. But he really needs to give it up for Dean a bit more. Dean did this, handed him the Presidency and all these new Dems their Congressional seats, and he oughta recognize that.

[firedupdem]

1. oh wow..this is turning into quite an evening. i hope somebody figures it all out. n/t

[Cha]

6. I don't think they're going to figure anything

out..too busy debating who's the biggest victim.

[K Gardner]

59. Wild speculation, rumor and innuendo is tres chic around here !

[nevergiveup]

2. You actually believe Dean

handed Obama the presidency? I love Howard Dean and his 50 state strategy was brilliant and obviously helped the Obama campaign but to say he handed Obama the presidency is a huge stretch. IMHO

[Guaranteed]

10. If you think all Dean did was put together the 50-state-thing, it would be a stretch.

But that's not the most important thing he did.

His leadership from our side set the political tone of our country- in the media, in people's minds, etc.- for the past six years. Howard Dean's frame defined the Bush Administration. Hell, Obama practically ran exactly the same campaign Dean did, especially with regard to foreign policy, the only differences being that- because of Dean- it was more socially acceptable to take those positions in 2008 than 2003, and Obama was smoother. He even ripped internet fundraising right out of Dean's playbook.

What people don't seem to be getting is that the tone Dean set way back when, years ago, reverberated through our culture and stayed with us. People hated the Bush Administration this time around because Dean told them they should last time around, and they remembered.

[marimour]

17. honestly

I don't think most people who voted for Obama remembered anything that Howard Dean said. Not because it wasn't important, but most people aren't into politics like people on this board and most don't even remember who all the candidates were THIS year even, so they aren't thinking about who ran and lost 4 years ago.

[Guaranteed]

18. No, they remembered what the MSM told them last night, who

got on track because of Dean's leadership and arguments.

Culture.

[patrice]

35. They wouldn't have to in order for it to have an effect.

There were enough others who got it and they, being anti-War types, were committed enough to carry it and that doesn't even count Green Party and a certain synergy with Libertarians over Foreign Policy issues.

[patrice]

12. That IS a stretch, but it is fair to say that had Dr. Dean not talked sense about

the Invasion & Occupation of Iraq there quite possibly would have been no anti-War Movement for Obama to hang his hat on and those of us who have been against this War from the build-up and on CARE about that issue soooooo strongly that we became a Significant reliable building-block in Obama's foundation, something without which he would have had a much harder time achieving critical mass.

[Guaranteed]

13. That's the thing- leadership affects culture.

That anti-Bush-Administration element of our culture that grew and grew over the past few years started with Dean making his stand when we needed him to, when no one else would do it.

[patrice]

21. I agree. Dr. Dean set the stage for Obama, created a new context for criticism of the Bush admnstrn

UNIFIED Congressional votes against the IWR.

Not to mention the respect he demonstrated for Us that turned into "Yes We Can!"

Now that it's done, they don't want to deliver on a full withdrawal from Iraq PLUS we're making some heat about Afghanistan and now Palestine. Obama's Conservative Crossover support never bargained for that, hence, no Liberal appointees and bye, bye Dr. Dean.

[Guaranteed]

26. You got it.

Another way of putting it would be that all of the anti-Bush arguments that led to the fed turnover to Democrats were originally Dean's.

Not that he necessarily thought of them- but he was the first mainstream Democrat to make public use of them in a campaign.

[FrenchieCat]

55. Obama gave a speech against the Iraq Invasion on October 2002.

When did Howard Dean give his? The exact date I mean?

[patrice]

58. Howard Dean was one of, if not the, first national figures to come out against this war. He did that

during the early primaries of 2004.

The anti-War movement would be way behind where it is if Dr. Dean had not stepped up.

If you want to argue against that go right ahead. I don't care and I don't waste my time with people who are more interested in being contrary than they are in the truth.

[democrattotheend]

60. I agree

I was a huge Deaniac and still am and I think his 50 state strategy did a ton for the party and for Obama, but I still think Obama would have won, though he may not have won as many electoral votes. Although Obama seemed inclined to expand the map anyway, Dean's 50 state strategy helped put the infrastructure in place for him to be able to be competitive in places like Indiana and North Carolina and even Nebraska.

[midnight]

3. I can only say how grateful Dr. Dean has worked for this

country we are truely lucky to have him.

[patrice]

4. I think there was a price to pay for all of these "crossovers".

Obama would not have to have known about it directly. Plausible deniability is a highly protected commodity.

Some influential types could have made the conditions under which obstruction would increase known.

[stray cat]

5. One reason the 50 state strategy worked is because people like you and I donated

and we had a good candidate, a dismal economy, a dismal last 8 years and a dismal republican party and candidate.

[Schema Thing]

7. and what is "Zeke's" interest in this?

[Guaranteed]

14. I dunno, I just threw that in there because I think it's bullshit. nt

[slipslidingaway]

24. Maybe that should be another thread - PBS interview 4/2007

Not sure if this is still the plan???

http://www.pbs.org/now/news/315.html

"Promises of universal health care roll off the tongues of several presidential candidates but how do they plan to achieve it? Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, Director of the Clinical Bioethics Department at the U.S. National Institutes of Health, says he's got the solution, in the form of an innovative and crowd-pleasing voucher plan.

"I think the universal part appeals to the Democrats. The voucher part appeals to Republicans. And I think it should make us one big happy family," Dr. Emanuel tells David Brancaccio in a web-exclusive interview...


...DR. EMANUEL: Our proposal is for universal healthcare vouchers. It's a plan where everybody in America gets a voucher to buy health insurance from an insurance company or health plan or a managed care organization..."

[Guaranteed]

28. Right, that's not single-payer. Dems use the term "universal" to cover up the

corporate aspect of their plan and confuse people.

It's a good thing to stop saying you want "universal" healthcare and start saying you want single-payer.

[slipslidingaway]

39. Agree, not sure if this is the current proposal, but the PBS

interview is interesting.

Employers are out of the picture, we get a health care voucher to buy a basic benefits package from some type of insurance company and the funding comes from a value added tax of 8 to 10%, excluding some basic items such as food.


Rahm Emanuel’s Brother Joins White House Team
http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/12/18/rahm-emanuels-brother-joins-white-house-team/

"Zeke Emanuel will work closely with Department of Health and Human Services secretary-nominee Tom Daschle to formulate a national health insurance program and to try to curb the swelling cost of health insurance without adversely impacting health care."

[marimour]

19. i think it is a guilt by association thing.

Because Rahm Emmanuel's brother is bashing single payer healthcare, somehow it translates into Obama not wanting single payer healthcare. If any person remotely connected with Obama says something, there is the attitude that he MUST believe it.

[Guaranteed]

22. No, I'm not even looking for any "guilt" on Obama's part re healthcare, let alone

by association. Not the point of the post.

In any case, Obama's position on single-payer healthcare is, obviously, that he's not going to propose it.

[madfloridian]

8. I heard Zeke does not like single payer at all.

[Jennicut]

9. Is this not obvious? Obama likes Dean but Rahm is his chief of Staff. Rahm dislikes Dean

Obama tries to be nice to both sides but no one is really happy. Gosh, that was easy. I like Rahm and Howard though I am more of a liberal then any DLC-er. I think he will make a good chief of staff, someone who can get things done and be tough. I love Howard, he did a lot for this party and the country. But they don't seem to like each other so I am not sure what the answer is. I hope Obama does realize that trying to please everyone rarely works and sometimes backfires. Howard and Biden seemed to like each other when I saw them talking to each other at the DNC. I doubt Obama has any real problem with Dean.

[patrice]

32. Doesn't have to be anything intentional on Obama's part. His leadership style

could make this sort of thing possible. Not everyone has as much scruples as he has about inclusion.

[Jennicut]

34. Yeah, Obama kind of wants to get along with everyone.

Its his leadership style for sure.

[patrice]

40. I approve of that. But it also takes very proactive highly detailed facilitation

to keep all of the processes fair to all of the opposites that have to interact.

[Jennicut]

41. For sure, its a tough road to walk

[marimour]

11. Obama was handed the presidency?

Where exactly were you the past year? Dean is great but he didn't hand Obama the presidency. BTW what does Obama have to do to make you think he appreciates Dean enough besides handing out a cabinet post as appreciation?

[Guaranteed]

16. The ticker-tape parade would be nice.

Or even inviting Dean to his own DNC chair handover get-together.

[marimour]

25. get together?

So a press conference where nothing was actually handed over is a get together? You know that Howard Dean is still the chair. When there is a hand over, he will be there to do it.

[PassingFair]

15. Eventually, the truth shines through.

Dean is not "getting one up on Obama"...
the truth is refusing to be ignored.

[ProSense]

20. This is nonsense. Dean implemented a great strategy. He got a huge funding boost

to build up the DNC at the beginning of his tenure from the Kerry campaign.

The extraordinary fundraising by the two nominees led to some disbursements that were also unusual for candidate committees. The Kerry primary committee, for example, transferred more than $40 million to Democratic Party committees at both the national and state levels, with $23.6 million going to the DNC. The Bush primary committee transferred $11.3 million to the RNC in mid October

Kerry and other Democrats campaigned tirelessly across the country in 2006 and 2008.

Obama too had a significant fundraising machine, which also aided the DNC.

The attempts portray Obama and the party as snubbing Dean is ridiculous.

[lostnotforgotten]

23. Rest Assured That Obama Is DLC

eom

[NYCGirl]

31. He must be the stealth DLCer then, since the Clintons obviously don't know it. NT

[patrice]

27. They ARE scared of Single Payer.

I'm feeling the chill at the local level.

[avaistheone1]

33. Why? Democrats and Republican constituents want it. Employers want it.

Most physicians and nurses want it. The only ones who don't want it are the insurance companies!

(So what is good for the insurance companies is good for the health of our families? I don't think so.)

[patrice]

42. Not my Blue Dog Congressional Rep.!

Sounds too much like Socialism to his Fundie constituency.

Americans for Prosperity beat the crap out of our local candidate for state senate and he was a VERY good candidate with rich Republican support!

[avaistheone1]

46. Ask your Blue Dog Congressional Rep why he hates America.

Oct. 20— Americans express broad, and in some cases growing, discontent with the U.S. health care system, based on its costs, structure and direction alike — fueling cautious support for a government-run, taxpayer-funded universal health system modeled on Medicare.
In an extensive ABCNEWS/Washington Post poll, Americans by a 2-1 margin, 62-32 percent, prefer a universal health insurance program over the current employer-based system.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/living/US/healthcare031020_poll.html



So your rep is sadly out of step with most Americans. Ask him why he doesn't care about his constituents.

[Thrill]

45. There will be no single payer with Baucus in the Senate

Which is why Obama isn't even going to try that route.

[avaistheone1]

47. That's absurd. That one man stands in the way of what appears to be the best opportunity in history

to establish single-payer universal health care coverage in this country.

To hell with Baucas. Yes, we can. Yes, we can have single-payer universal health care coverage in this country. Yes, we can.

[Thrill]

50. Baucus has a lot of pull with the guys like Bayh and other so called blue dogs

And remember it has no Republican support. So with out Baucus and his backers. It has no chance.

[avaistheone1]

57. Oy vey! And what kind of pull do the American people have when most of us

want a universal plan similar to Medicare. Does it have any pull that more employers are cutting back on their medical plans? Does it have any pull that a record number of Americans have lost and are losing their jobs and would not be eligible for an employer based health insurance plan anyways? Does it have any pull with these big smart people in Washington that even the middle class are finding basic medical insurance unaffordable? Does it have any pull that most bankruptcies in this country are caused by medical expenses?

Do these big, smart people in Washington in charge of these decisions have any decency at all? I understand though that the decency issue is different from pull.

[RandomThoughts]

29. I was thinking about this

I don't think either President elect Obama, nor Howard Dean, believes positions should be handed out as rewards. I could be wrong, but I think they both are looking out for the country and finding the best people for the positions.

I heard Dean was going on some speaking tours, and he probably has other ideas and projects, sometimes a grass roots guy, can do his best work out in the fields.

Just my opinion, but Dean looks really happy when he is being interviewed. And thats a good thing. :)

[Guaranteed]

30. I'm really not even talking about positions- don't care about that.

But he needs some freaking credit. It's amazing- like he's disappeared. Somebody important ought to be saying something.

[marimour]

37. i guess i see your point, but

Obama is about to become President. That is a big deal and a big task that he is about to take on. I'm not sure if this was a snub but I guarantee you it wasn't done by Obama, not b/c i dont think he would ever snub someone, but b/c he has way more on his plate than this. I really doubt that this was pressing in his mind. All I can do is listen to Dean when he talks, and he isn't saying anything about this so I will believe him.

[Hanse]

36. Isn't this just the State of the Union redux?

The one where people imagine Obama snubbed Hillary?

Or the time they thought he flipped her off?

Or the other time they thought he flipped of Sarah Palin?

I mean, honestly.

[AtomicKitten]

38. .

dupe

[AtomicKitten]

43. Both Obama and Dean sculpted this monster victory.

In your effort to stroke what you apparently think is Dean's bruised ego, please don't think it's okay to disregard Obama's hard work. It's pointlessly divisive.

In concert, they did it. They f*cking did it.

[slipslidingaway]

44. And the corporate media helped as well...

I cannot forget how many times the media made mention of the possibility of Obama running for president back in Dec 2006, at least for me it sent up a warning signal.

:shrug:

[Nevernose]

49. I was talking about it in 2004

Before he gave his famous speech on TV. Check the archives. It's hard not to listen to the guy and not think, "Damn, that's a guy I could get behind."

[slipslidingaway]

52. When the corporate media pushes something or someone

I become skeptical.

[Nevernose]

56. And that's a fair attitude.

I become skeptical when the MSM gets involved, too, as I think any sane person should. I'm also skeptical enough to know that Obama isn't the Progressive Messiah, but I haven't given up all hope, either. He hasn't even been inaugurated, yet.

[slipslidingaway]

63. Thanks, not expecting a Progressive Messiah either and still

hoping, but we get a glimpse into the new admin with the people he appoints.

The economic team is important as they help shape the direction of where our dollars go, some of the same people did not recognize the problems as there were occurring in the 90's and only in hindsight. Just one group that gives me pause.

[AtomicKitten]

54. He started from ground zero, starting out with 6% of the vote.

Clinton had control of the Dem Party machine. She was the inevitable candidate as per her own words played out over and over again in that corporate-driven media you speak of. He took the presidency meticulously, skillfully inch by inch.

The realization that this man was destined for bigger things was obvious for the world to see when Obama gave the keynote address at the Dem National Convention in 2004. The media wasn't telling anybody anything that they couldn't see with their own eyes.

Please don't give him points off for his success. He and Dean pulled off an amazingly brilliant victory for the Democrats, turning nine red states blue. That should be celebrated, not discounted as if there was something wrong with it.

[slipslidingaway]

64. Not looking to take anything away from Obama or Dean...

just stating my observations that Obama had help from the corporate media right after the 2006 elections.

[mzmolly]

48. I agree BGL.

Dean deserves acolades. Not just a mention in a speech, but something official.

I can't help but think the rift with Emmanuel is part of the equation as to what's going on? However, if we plan to reach across the isle, shouldn't we be able to honor the guy who helped put us in the position we're in?

I will say, I was glad to see that Kaine spoke about keeping the 50 state strategy in his speech today.

[BlooInBloo]

51. "I love both of these guys" - BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!

[Guaranteed]

62. What- has that been scientifically disproven?

Yeah, I like one of them better than the other, but I still like them both.

[fadedrose]

53. K & heartily recommended nt

[graywarrior]

61. How do we know Dean and Obama haven't had a discussion that they don't figure

is any of our business?

[polichick]

65. I tend to agree with you. :)

[Avalux]

66. Has anyone heard from Dean himself - is he upset he isn't getting more credit?

Most of what I read here about what's going on between the Obama folks and Dean is conjecture. To insinuate jealousy or to wonder if Obama is really DLC is silly.

The good Dr. Dean isn't the kind of guy who would sit quietly with his mouth shut if he had been slighted. At least he doesn't seem to be. I'd expect he'd have said something by now if he felt he wasn't being treated fairly.

It's entirely possible Dean and Obama worked out how all of this would go down and didn't make it public.