Anyone bored and want to read over my shoulder?

[Clio the Leo]

Thought you all might enjoy reading a little debate a friend of mine and I are having on another, non-politics message board. This all got started after my encouraging other members of the board to join in on the politics discussion as I feel it's healthy for grown folks to have intelligent debates. Apparently, they're all scared of me. :)

So my friend says.....
(note: she is Canadian)

There is a certain tone of zealousness to this thread that can be off-putting (and I say this as a zealot-type myself).

This is politics. The people involved are human. On some issues they will be right (or more right) and some issues wrong (or more wrong). For example, the regulatory fiasco was NOT just the fault of Republicans. Similarly, I was both amused and disgusted to see that our Prime Minister has suddenly decided that Canada's failure to act on environmental issues is now apparently the fault of the Bush administration. Fail!!! Seriously, that is so horribly revisionist it is ridiculous.

Obama has been elected. Yes, he is very pretty, and charming, and his wife and daughters are delightful also. But he is also now the President of the United States and you can't just be groupies any more. Things like Daschle, "buy America," and I could think of other things ... if you don't raise your voices against those mistakes, aren't you just like the people that accepted everything Bush II said was true?

To which I replied....

..... he is MORE than just "pretty and charming" and his family has nothing to do with policy .... I am more than just a "groupie" and I think my numerous, specific and cited examples referencing matters of policy are proof of that. I can and HAVE told you (all) WHY I think he's a very capable leader.

The meme that those who support him do so because we are blind sheep is the death flailings of a group of people who have nothing left to pick on. It gives one a great deal of satisfaction to know that WORST thing the President's detractors can say about him is that "he's too popular."

It is HIGHLY insulting that you would imply otherwise. I posted a rather lengthy explanation as to why I felt your fears over the "Buy America" clause were incorrect. I am uncertain what you mean by "things like Daschle" as the man PAID THE TAXES HE OWED LAST JUNE before he was even considered for the position and voluntarilly resigned his post. Your remarks are puzzeling to say the least.

To which she said....

Yeah ... you posted a response defending the "buy America" clause ... right before Obama himself found problems with it as being protectionist.

Look, I have no problems with your enthusiasm for Obama, especially running up to the nomination and the election. That is supportive and salespersonship - because then admitting any faults would have been a mistake. Failing to admit he has made some missteps since just reeks of homer-ism.

Daschle got taken down NOT because of anything either party decided, but because the American people were outraged. Even the morning that he stepped down, no one on either side apparently thought he would have to. Cross the people and, golden or not, you are toast.

To which I replied...

lol, so an hour and a half ago I was a groupie and now you're complaining that I'm NOT agreeing with him?

Have you been playing outside in the snow again without your tabbogon on?

A misstep is in the eye of the beholder.

"The American people were outraged" over Daschle? I'd venture to say if you took a cross section of the population they wouldn't even know who Daschle was. Some on the left weren't happy with him because he wasn't Dean. Some on the right weren't happy with him because ... well, they weren't supposed to be. When the the chic stepped down for a lesser offense, Daschle really had no choice.

So out of THOUSANDS of new hires ..... two of them were less than forthcoming during the vetting process.

Ok, so what's your next "mistake?"

But I will tell you, generally speaking, if I am supportive of someone, be it the President ..... or, I dunno .... friends of mine ...... very rarely will you find me publically pointing out something that I've considered them having done wrong. I dont see that as being constructive.

You may call that "homerism" ..... down here we call that "triflin'"

If he does something I dont like, I've got his email address, I'll send him off a letter. You want me to CC it to your or BCC?

Anyway, thought you all might get a kick out of a little back and forth between friends.

(for the record: Let me say that the admin of this board will have no problem with me posting this here .... I know this, because I am her. :) )

[firedupdem]

1. Good job girlfriend!

I enjoyed reading the exchange and think you've done a great job defending your point of view!

:fistbump:

[Clio the Leo]

2. And the good part about it is..........

......... there's absolutely no anger between us. No hurt feelings. We can go back and forth like this and no one's ego gets bruised. She's a real peach .... er um ....... whatever they grow up there in the frozen tundra. :)

[tularetom]

3. It must be wonderful to have intelligent friends to discuss and sometimes disagree with

Christmas of 2007 we had our entire extended family at our house - like 35 of them. I can still recall some of the topics that were discussed and argued about for hours.

-Whether you could get radiation poisoning from the "atomic clock" somebody gave me for christmas.

-If the Celtic Christmas music we were playing reminded anybody of the dreary folk song playing in the background during the "sophomore dies in kiln explosion" scene from Animal House.

-And last but not least, how much do our bull's testicles weigh.

If you haven't guessed, alcohol was indeed involved. And most of the dumb arguments came from the children and grandchildren of my late sister, who we have more or less adopted.

I'd welcome an informed discussion with adults once in a while.

[Clio the Leo]

4. lol, this is why I believe in selecting your family....

..... and politely staying away from the ones you had no choice in (if you want to.)

[Clio the Leo]

5. And one more reply from an Obamacon friend....

... who is also as sweet as they come.....

As a repulican that supported Obama I say this he is a human man and will make mistakes. I think he has done a fine job so far you know its only been a month. The man will make mistakes, he is awfully smart so I would say it will be few but he is human not a robot! He is and will be helping the US get out of this mess we are in, which by no means was all Bush's fault, he couldnt get anything through Congress, his hands were tied! Thank goodness that is not going to be the case with Obama.

As Hillary said today he is on the right track to get our country back ....

One post like that will wipe out all of the BS you read in Freeperland ....... er um ..... not that I ever read over there of course lol

[Lavender Brown]

6. Interesting...

The members don't mind that you, as the admin get involved in political discussions? I'm very selective about the non-political message boards I join, and I still get tangled up in the most ridiculous discussions with freepers. I usually join a forum about a topic I'm interested in with the intent of not discussing politics at all, and then get involved with flamewars because nobody else speaks up when people defend offensive things just to be contrary. The moderators, even the ones I know to be liberal-minded, often avoid confronting racist/sexist/homophobic crap, which annoys me.

[Clio the Leo]

8. Well, we're a bit odd....

... we were all friends BEFORE we started the message board so perhaps that changes the atmosphere. I've admin'ed other boards before and am a strong believer in the notion that if you treat people like adults and merely EXPECT them to behave, they will. That's, with very few exceptions, what I've found to happen.

We're a bunch of folks who generally avoid conflict which, unfortunately, is more likely to lead to folks NOT talking than to them arguing. The general concensus is "I'm staying out of the politics thread because I dont like the arguing." To which I of course reply "and because you know you're wrong!" :)

[Joe the Liberal]

7. Good stuff.........

did she finally give up?

[Clio the Leo]

9. lol, no we both just got sleepy and went to bed. NT