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Wiretapping was dismissed...so why the hoopla?!

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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 01:25 AM
Original message
Wiretapping was dismissed...so why the hoopla?!
Edited on Wed Apr-08-09 01:29 AM by vaberella
Several key posters, unfortunately no calling out but they do deserve their props have put out the CORRECT information out there. I see people with link after link after link saying this and that while the court order even though it is struck to dismiss by the DOJ actually has in it that wiretapping has been struck.

I realize there's a lot of info out there but I couldn't see Pres O supporting something like that when it is not constitutional and I've always wondered how much of the information we're really getting. I'm also starting to question on who's side Turley is really on, considering he's never (from all the time I've seen him; support anything the O Admin has done). But that's enough of that...

I never felt that O was protecting Bush or his policies and from what I can tell he hasn't done that.

For those wondering here is the info links.

Here is where it was first brought to my attention:
1. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8328172&mesg_id=8328215 So the poster clarified for those who don't get lingo that wiretapping has been discontinued. Huh...you can't tell that by the amount of reactionists.

Here is the the proper post on the topic that everyone should read and logical minded people should K*R:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5411395&mesg_id=5411395

Thanks Windy for making sense amongst nonsense.

I prefer facts over conjecture, screams of outrage, reactionist sensibilities, and non-sense. I was given the facts in the post above and I suggest all see it, comment on it and read the motion.

So once again...why are people reacting the way they are?

Here is the motion as provided in the link above.
http://www.eff.org/files/filenode/jewel/jewelmtdobama.pdf

For those with the skill to understand a lot of legalies, then I welcome you to it. I'm pretty bad with the stuff myself so I'm glad the OP of the du link above provided some understanding to all the jargon. Maybe some other posters might take the advice in future when it comes to getting facts, understanding it, and providing it rather than what a one or two people have said who more than likely did not READ the motion themselves.
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firedupdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 01:33 AM
Response to Original message
1. Thanks for posting those all in one place. I attempted to read
through it but didn't understand most of it. I will wait to hear directly from the administration before bashing the President. I sent a note on the whitehouse.gov site and ignored the negative comments. It's always the same people. I hope it's explained fully within the next few days.
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Yeah...you can ask Windy, she/he was a paralegal.
I'll private email him/her to expand on their post so we'd get a better grounding for those of us who can't understand a lick. I picked up on a few things.
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firedupdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Sounds good...thanks!
Edited on Wed Apr-08-09 01:38 AM by firedupdem
on edit I see this portion:

You people do realize that the Justice Department has a duty to defend its client, the US government don't you? What we need to do is pressure Obama to issue an executive order regarding wiretapping or to pressure congress to change the patriot act provisions. I also noted that it was stated in the motion that the Terrorist Surveillance Program is "now inoperative".
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 01:35 AM
Response to Original message
3. NO ACCOUNTABILITY
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. That's not true.
How is there no accountability? The government can't be sued yes. Secondly it doesn't stop any investigation into past actions which could bring out new legislation against future offenses of that nature. I also noted that they talk about the Patriot Act, but the new FISA puts major changes on what is going on and who can do what and the process by which one does it, ie government actions which denote accountability if their in the wrong. Secondly from what I could read they keep saying "sovereign immunity" which just means government secrets and that's just not to keep some Government goings on away from us but mainly away from foreign nations that could use that against us. However, again I'm not seeing your point.

Can you make it more clear to me based on the article and more directly the motion to support your statement?
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. gawd
you are a lost fucking cause
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 06:42 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. Far from it..I just don' t know what you want and what you're
on about. You and two other posters who keep going buck wild on counter threads to your belief. It's rather annoying. Most and some are screaming he's allowing wiretapping. But that's not the case...then you come and say there's no accountability...but I don't find neither to be true based on what I read. But then again I guess it's all about interpretation and how you take into affect all forms of legislation in regards to this issue.

You claim no accountability and yet the most are just saying there's wiretapping when that's definitely been proven incorrect.

Further more if you can't speak politely in regards to some statements then why bother?
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #8
29. You know what? As long as you're getting personal..
That could be turned around on you, too.
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #5
32. since when is any entity or person allowed to have god like abilities and NEVER
be sued? since when is any law passed by man ever beyond reproach? This kind of crap -infallibility of the popes for instance- is crap. No one and no man made law or action is above the review of law and justice. Fuck that notion. That is nobles oblige, unamerican and wrong.
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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. That's exactly right.
There were criminals at the highest level in the Bush administration, and they should be held to account. They have paid no consequences for the millions of lives, here and all over the world, that they have destroyed, or damaged beyond repair, all in our name.

I'm HAPPY that Obama says he isn't going to continue these policies -- that's all well and good -- but the CRIMINALS HAVE TO BE BROUGHT TO JUSTICE. At least hold some sham trials anyway, like they did in the Reagan years. Those guys mostly all got off, but at least charges were brought. Or like in Nixon days. John Dean went to jail. Haldeman, that other guy -- Colson.

Whatever happened to holding people accountable -- is that only for the "little people" now? Murder a single person, you go to prison for life or you may even be put to death; but force innocent soldiers to murder thousands of Iraqis for the sake of some demented ideology, commit torture on people who have done nothing except be in the wrong place at the wrong time; destroy the world's economy; spy without warrants on American citizens; crime after crime after crime, and no one is holding them accountable.

Our Democratic president, in whom we all have placed so much trust, must allow justice to be served. We are a nation of laws -- or so they tell us. Prove it.

<rant off - and I don't often rant>
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Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Okay, wait... is the issue Obama's "desire" to continue the wiretaps or is it
holding the Bush administration accountable for starting the program in the first place??
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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 03:33 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Oh, it's both.
I'm just pissed off about the whole thing.

I want a perfect world, damn it, and I want it now.

(I'm only half kidding. I'm getting old and cranky.)
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
36. DOJ is autonomous.
learn the structure of your own government.
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MarjorieG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 01:51 AM
Response to Original message
6. Turley is as sacred here as Krugman, both excellent academics and purists, admin critics.
Turley was also for impeachment of Bill Clinton, on and on.
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #6
33. turley has been our conscience for a long time.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 02:18 AM
Response to Original message
10. from EFF and others
Edited on Wed Apr-08-09 02:19 AM by Two Americas
In Warrantless Wiretapping Case, Obama DOJ's New Arguments Are Worse Than Bush's

Friday evening, in a motion to dismiss Jewel v. NSA, EFF's litigation against the National Security Agency for the warrantless wiretapping of countless Americans, the Obama Administration's made two deeply troubling arguments.

First, they argued, exactly as the Bush Administration did on countless occasions, that the state secrets privilege requires the court to dismiss the issue out of hand. They argue that simply allowing the case to continue "would cause exceptionally grave harm to national security." As in the past, this is a blatant ploy to dismiss the litigation without allowing the courts to consider the evidence. It's an especially disappointing argument to hear from the Obama Administration. As a candidate, Senator Obama lamented that the Bush Administration "invoked a legal tool known as the 'state secrets' privilege more than any other previous administration to get cases thrown out of civil court." He was right then, and we're dismayed that he and his team seem to have forgotten. Sad as that is, it's the Department Of Justice's second argument that is the most pernicious. The DOJ claims that the U.S. Government is completely immune from litigation for illegal spying — that the Government can never be sued for surveillance that violates federal privacy statutes. This is a radical assertion that is utterly unprecedented. No one — not the White House, not the Justice Department, not any member of Congress, and not the Bush Administration — has ever interpreted the law this way.

http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/04/obama-doj-worse-than-bush

New and worse secrecy and immunity claims from the Obama DOJ
Glenn Greenwald

But late Friday afternoon, the Obama DOJ filed the government's first response to EFF's lawsuit (.pdf), the first of its kind to seek damages against government officials under FISA, the Wiretap Act and other statutes, arising out of Bush's NSA program. But the Obama DOJ demanded dismissal of the entire lawsuit based on (1) its Bush-mimicking claim that the "state secrets" privilege bars any lawsuits against the Bush administration for illegal spying, and (2) a brand new "sovereign immunity" claim of breathtaking scope -- never before advanced even by the Bush administration -- that the Patriot Act bars any lawsuits of any kind for illegal government surveillance unless there is "willful disclosure" of the illegally intercepted communications.

In other words, beyond even the outrageously broad "state secrets" privilege invented by the Bush administration and now embraced fully by the Obama administration, the Obama DOJ has now invented a brand new claim of government immunity, one which literally asserts that the U.S. Government is free to intercept all of your communications (calls, emails and the like) and -- even if what they're doing is blatantly illegal and they know it's illegal -- you are barred from suing them unless they "willfully disclose" to the public what they have learned.

...

Every defining attribute of Bush's radical secrecy powers -- every one -- is found here, and in exactly the same tone and with the exact same mindset. Thus: how the U.S. government eavesdrops on its citizens is too secret to allow a court to determine its legality. We must just blindly accept the claims from the President's DNI that we will all be endangered if we allow courts to determine the legality of the President's actions. Even confirming or denying already publicly known facts -- such as the involvement of the telecoms and the massive data-mining programs -- would be too damaging to national security. Why? Because the DNI says so. It is not merely specific documents, but entire lawsuits, that must be dismissed in advance as soon as the privilege is asserted because "its very subject matter would inherently risk or require the disclosure of state secrets."

What's being asserted here by the Obama DOJ is the virtually absolute power of presidential secrecy, the right to break the law with no consequences, and immunity from surveillance lawsuits so sweeping that one can hardly believe that it's being claimed with a straight face. It is simply inexcusable for those who spent the last several years screaming when the Bush administration did exactly this to remain silent now or, worse, to search for excuses to justify this behavior.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/04/06/obama/index.html

Shut Up: It's Still A Secret

Yesterday, the Justice Department embraced the argument that the state secrets privilege - a fancy phrase denoting the executive branch's common law prerogative to protect classified information - should shut down any litigation against the National Security Agency for its arguably illegal warrantless surveillance program.

The case, Jewel v. NSA, is one part of a complex web of cases brought by civil libertarians against the government. They're challenging the program itself, Congress's grant to telecommunication companies of retroactive immunity, and even the rights of state governments to issue subpoenas relating to NSA activities. Jewel is perhaps the simplest to litigate; its five plaintiffs are regular folks who contend that their telecom carrier, AT&T, illegally transmitted information about their phone habits to the NSA. Defendants include the NSA and various government official who sanctioned the program. Pull one strand and the whole weave of surveillance activities will unwind. That's essentially what the government is arguing. Although, thanks to journalists, much is already known about the NSA's domestic surveillance program before it was reauthorized and rewritten, very little is known about the program today. It still exists, albeit in some neutered form.

Reports indicate that domestic communications are monitored holistically, with computers searching for patterns among the metadata - think of subject lines in e-mails. The NSA continues to work with telephone companies; it has enlisted the cooperation of companies that operate major internet hubs, as a good chunk of foreign internet traffic flows through routers controlled by American companies. NSA whistleblowers and anonymous officials have spoken of "thousands" of American citizens whose calls were monitored, although the NSA and CIA will not cop to those numbers. The program expires at the end of 2009, at which point the Obama administration is expected to mount a vigorous fight to reauthorize it in full.

The government, in a filing yesterday, argues that the Jewel will disclose state secrets if it proceeds, and that if such secrets are needed for the case to be litigated - i.e, to be argued on its merits -- it cannot be litigated. There is ample precedent for this argument. As I've written before, the state secrets privilege is one of the most powerful instruments of executive power. There are no uniform standards for judges to use in order to determine whether the government is simply asserting the privilege because they're embarrassed, or whether the privilege's assertion really protects vital secrets. Obama has criticized this lack of accountability, but his Justice Department has not figured out how to retract the privilege in a bevy of Bush-era cases without damaging the privilege itself - something they don't want to do.

The government also makes a complex argument about sovereign immunity; it argues that the case against particular persons performing their government jobs can't proceed unless Congress waives immunity. Such immunity is being challenged elsewhere, but only, in this understanding, can a basic case asking for injunctive relief from the government proceed.

http://politics.theatlantic.com/2009/04/shut_up_its_still_a_secret.php
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Undercurrent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 04:20 AM
Response to Original message
12. Thank you for
a thread on this topic I can post in.


I've avoided this subject, because some folks go wild before they even know the facts.

And thanks for the link. It's a good idea for people to do some reading, and reflection before they start carpet bombing, salting the earth, and poisoning the wells.

Anyway, since none of us can be an expert in all things, and I'm certainly not a legal wiz, I must rely on those I trust to do the job right.


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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 06:59 AM
Response to Original message
14. Thanks!
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Clio the Leo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 07:35 AM
Response to Original message
15. You're asking us to READ? Seriously?
You realize most of us haven't even read the books written by the guy we (at least once) supported and spend time talking about?

And you want us to read that!?

Next you'll be asking us to stop and think! .... You're asking WAYYY too much. :)
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Actually I did ask to stop and think...
without using those words exactly. Obviously we see reading to be off the table. ^_^

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Clio the Leo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Yeah, I thought that sounded familiar when I typed it.. lol NT
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 08:05 AM
Response to Original message
18. +++++++THANK YOU+++++++++++
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GeorgeGist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 08:29 AM
Response to Original message
19. Sovereign immunity is nonsense.
Case dismissed.
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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 08:31 AM
Response to Original message
20. k&r.
Thank you.
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kid a Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 09:23 AM
Response to Original message
21. K & R
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
22. This Point is being COMPLETELY MISSED by DUers.
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
23. By BushCo, actually.
http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2007_cr/fisa011707.html

Correct me if I'm wrong of course, but I think people saw a phrase in the motion to dismiss about the "inoperative" Terrorist Surveillance Program and thought it meant Obama had changed something about that.

:shrug:

The issue is whether citizens can sue the government for breaching their Constitutional rights.
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Phx_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
24. Thanks for this. The only thing that I am concerned about is whether
Edited on Wed Apr-08-09 01:15 PM by Phx_Dem
the government continues to illegally wiretap American citizens, in country. As I understand it that practice has been discontinued under President Obama.

I don't care a shit if people aren't allowed to sue the government after-the-fact. The only reason that sueing the government would be a good thing, would be to shed light on the fact that they are engaging in illegal activity and to stop it! If the practice has already been discontinued, what would a citizen seek to gain from filing a lawsuit against a DOJ that did not engage in an illegal activity? Money? Yeah, I don't think so. Taxpayers are not going to pay individuals in order to compensate them for something that never cost them a dime. Yes, it did cost them their privacy and that's why it's illegal and must stop -- and it has stopped.

We would have people all over the country lining up to sue the government, which would solve nothing because the illegality of the issue as already been addressed. If people want someone to pay for their loss of privacy, they should be advocating an investigation into the people who perpetrated the illegal activity -- Bush/Cheney.

Am I misunderstanding that the DOJ case is about lawsuits, not illgal wiretapping?

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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Laws need to be enforced.
It's about holding government accountable for illegal wiretapping.
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Phx_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. I agree. And that's why I support an investigation into Bush/Cheney's
illegal policies. Suing is not law enforcement.
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. "Suing is not law enforcement"
Actually, it is.

Law enforcement is what courts do.
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
25. So no wiretapping anymore but there is still the issue of Bush not being held
Edited on Wed Apr-08-09 01:25 PM by Jennicut
accountable for his crimes. However, suing the govt. in which Bush is no longer in charge of may not make any sense. Bush himself needs to be sued-not that it would ever happen but still... Going after the shell of govt. that Bush and Cheney once manipulated means nothing without them being held accountable. Holder has released some memos on some of the crap they did-I wonder if they will eventually just expose them and leave it at that. I wish some day we would have prosecutions but the fact remains was anything they did illegal when you yourself can simply deem it legal? That is the scary part.
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. That's far from the case.
The law is talking about government in general not about Bush. You want Bush to be held accountable that's going to be another issue entirely. Further more O's team is fighting on sovereign immunity meaning this could lead to a leakage of State secrets which is detrimental for our own government...remember the US is not loved all over the world. Bush did a lot of nasty shit and that shit can bite us on the ass on an international level through retribution. But there could also be some "valid" gains from it. This is not defending those gains but O's avenue is not protecting Bush or even expanding Bush's power that's nonsensical. From what I could gather he's just defending US interests and has stopped all wiretapping. There has been a lot of information and more being found that will actually lead to Bush being held accountable.

On a last note...if you're looking for O to push the accountablity train against Bush remember he's not about that and said so during the primaries. He won't stop nor has the ability to stop an independent prosecution but it seems to me the information here has no "real" baring on that case. Kucinich when he went on the house floor last year provided enough data and evidence to take out Bush and more memos and news has been seeping out to support a prosecution. But this has nothing to do with it from my knowlege.
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. No I agree with you. I think there is no point suing the govt, when Bush and Cheney are not even
Edited on Wed Apr-08-09 02:14 PM by Jennicut
there anymore. Who cares? It won't hurt them in any way. I want Bush held accountable but it will have to be through the DOJ and Holder if he makes that decision.
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Realtalk Donating Member (50 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #25
34. And?
Bush being held accountable has no bearing on the fact that wiretapping is no more. The OP's point had to do with just that... wiretapping and fellow posters' false, one-sided accusations. Not prosecutions...
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. For cryin' out loud, people!
1. Wiretapping is still happening.
2. Wiretapping without warrants, which is illegal, was (supposedly) stopped in 2007.
3. There is no new position on wiretapping in the Obama administration's court filing this week.
4. The issue is about illegal acts on the part of government officials and citizens' rights in holding them accountable.
5. Bush's accountability in this case is important and concerns government responsibility to follow the law.

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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. And just where in this case will Bush be prosecuted?
I don't see that to be the case at all. Rather the Obama administration is essentially being sued for what Bush and Cheney did. Why not directly sue Bush and Cheney? Of course, it would never make it far but still this will do nothing to Bush and Cheney. Oh yes, Bush look out the govt. was just sued! So? How is he effected in any way at all?
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. Jennicut...
Edited on Wed Apr-08-09 11:34 PM by chill_wind
Along with the US govt, George Bush and Dick Cheney and quite a few other individual Bush officials (Gonzales, Hayden, Addington and more) are explicity named as defendants in the suit.
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 11:11 PM
Response to Original message
38. And the United States does not torture. I KNOW that because
Edited on Wed Apr-08-09 11:13 PM by chill_wind
my government told me so, over and over for years.

Seriously, we have a Pentagon that allegedly sees fit to redact communication to the POTUS to hide the fact of conditions still occurring at Gitmo very much despite President Obama's orders.

We have the fact that Congress defunded and purportedly "killed" TIA in 2003, yet it has creatively reinvented itself over the years under dozens of cool new names and projects under other departments and other funding...

Take THAT Congress.

I wonder how many there are now?

http://www.technologyreview.com/communications/16741/page1/
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