Why were pictures taken at all?

[MadBadger]

Through all this, its something I dont understand. Why take pictures at all? What was the rationale behind that?

[madeline_con]

1. I'll assume this is about torture.

So they could share them with their buddies, and like-minded assholes around the world.

[Fresh_Start]

2. mementos of course

after all don't you have photos of the best times of your life?
I say this snarkily of course, but remember the Lynndie England photos, clearly they were celebrating the moment

[jhrobbins]

23. yeah, i was gonna say don't rapists and serial killers take pictures to help

them relive those moments of violence. Sick is sick!!

[Cha]

3. Why do idiots document

anything? To look back and see their handywork.

[npk]

4. So that Dick Cheney could post them on his Myspace account

In all seriousness they had to document abuse as required by DOJ. The Bush Admin said these were rogue military officers who had acted on their own and dismissed it as such. Of course we now know that to be complete BS.

[stillcool]

5. Maybe they're trophy pictures..

that the government confiscated? Or..maybe confirmation was wanted that orders were being carried out...like progress reports.

[zulchzulu]

6. What's even worse is that there are VIDEOS of this shit that was recorded....

I can't even imagine trying to sleep that night after videotaping someone getting waterboarded... or worse...

[MadBadger]

10. I actually can understand recordings because id imagine these rooms having cameras in them

So people who arent in the room can see whats going on, like in a jail. But the picture part just seems so icredibly ridiculous.

[vaberella]

7. Because people are disturbing that way....n/t

[knowbody0]

8. I knew a guy

who kept a photo of Vietnamese Ears in his wallet. he had about fifty of them.


I could never understand why.

[Divine Discontent]

11. so grotesque. that's barbarism at its finest. it made me think

how barbaric people can be, and "collecting" evidence of their 'machismo' or 'heroism'. Regardless of the reasons why the deaths occurred, the necessity to take pics of it shows instability, but I don't think you thought anything different than that!

[Canuckistanian]

9. Many (possible) reasons

1. The pictures were to be used as blackmail or to frighten the families or local community of the detainees to enforce "compliance"

2. To provide bragging rights to other members of the intelligence community. They were NOT meant to be exposed.

3. Somebody's obsession with other's pain.

4.'Cause they felt like it - and digital cameras are SO easy to use for capturing "fun times"

[ck4829]

12. To create a how-to guide

Remember all the "thumbs up" in the pictures that have been released?

It's basically saying "This is how you do it!"

[Muttocracy]

14. that's what I wonder - sick mix of self-absorption and training documentation. nt

[vaberella]

20. That makes it even more twisted & validates the reasons why the President doesn't release them. n/t

[Forkboy]

21. I'd be willing to bet the farm that anyone interested in torture won't need pics to learn it.

Hell, any detailed book on the Inquisition will get them well on their way to full knowledge on the topic. The Inquisitors were very creative.

[vaberella]

22. I'm fully aware of that..

Personally I found the British to redefine cruel and unusual. However, in this case...there are potential attacks on far more than just our soldiers. Further more...the pictures don't really have that much weight from what I can see. I find people are putting far more weight than necessary. We have the Abu Ghraib pics and not all of those, we have plenty of typed memos that validate something wrong was going on. To me the paper work is even more valuable than a few snap shots. The snap shots are of the people committing the crime, who should pay a price. However I'm more interested in the people who gave the damn order and made sure their hands weren't dirty with the actual killing. That leaves the higher ups and all their little memos. Had the president held back the memos and continued to do so along with these pictures. I'd probably think your calls for pics to have some value. However considering that more and quite a bit of redacted papers on the torture making it very clear our government engaged in such acts...is far more telling about where we stand and what we're going to do to change it. The pictures are a visual...but I found the written proof far more scary and scarring.

I'm not going to waste my time on this with you since clearly we stand on two different positions and that's fine. I don't mind if the pics are released however. I also don't mind, considering O's reasoning and many others, for the pics to be kept. And as I said before those things are already being leaked considering someone posted a link to them on the thread. So O doesn't have to do anything. They're already out there.

[Forkboy]

24. Sorry you see the discussion as a waste of time.

I won't bother responding to what I feel are the good points you made here.

Have a nice night.

[vaberella]

25. It is because what happens is a very circular conversation...

considering we've done this on what? 3 or so different threads with me seeming to repeat myself. I don't see much a of a truce and I had a decent night...I saw Star Trek and was utterly disappointed in Uhura.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

13. human experiments?

[Doctor_J]

15. Torture is used to terrorize people

the information gleaned is basically useless, and it dehumanizes the torturers. The main purpose of torturing people is to impose fear on others in the person's group. Cheney is a terrorist. Pictures were taken to further the terrorism.

[undergroundpanther]

16. because people who advocate torture

or do torture are inhuman,psychopaths and evil,it is either for trophy or porn I think.That's what psychopaths get off on,seeing other people suffer, forced into submission,beaten, in gory ways only wars can do, or people being broken psychologically, humiliated ,terrified or being traumatized.Psychopaths like bush or cheney enjoy seeing others suffer or die and for those monsters knowing they are causing it,and they might get away with it makes it a really evil perversion of power,so they like it even more.

[NYC_SKP]

17. ????

[Jennicut]

26. Sabrina Harman....she documented many pictures at Abu Ghraib

On one hand there were letters written home to a friend that showed how uncomfortable she was with what was happening at the prison and then documented one of the prisoner's deaths (which would never have been known). But then on the other hand she took pics like this. Very surreal.

I just read an article about her in the New Yorker as I was thinking about Abu Ghraib as related to these other torture photos. Really good article.
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/03/24/080324fa_fact_gourevitch

[NYC_SKP]

27. Thank you.

Ironically, one way we deal with trauma and shock is through behaviors that seem dark and twisted.

What a horrible thing to live through.

I won't judge her, the photo is surreal and all I could write was "????".

:donut:

[Jennicut]

28. True. That is what Errol Morris talks about in his film about the soldiers that committed these acts

and/or took the photos. The film is Standard Operating Procedure. I have only seen articles about it, but right now I really want to see the movie.
What gets to me the most is that while what these soldiers did was wrong, they paid a price. The price of those at the top has yet to be payed. I really hope someday there will be full investigations as to what went on.

[donnrfl]

18. and people usually get shy around cameras...

just think what was going on when they were turned off....
sad

[Blue_In_AK]

19. Why did the Nazis film the bulldozing of concentration camp victims

into mass graves? I don't get it either.

[AngryAmish]

29. Did you see the movie Syriana?

I did not. I did read the book it was based on, "See No Evil" by Bob Baer. Mr. Baer is a former CIA operative in the middle east. Toward the end of his career he was investigated as an accessory to murder. He claims he was doing his job with the ok of his superiors.

It has been learned by the CIA when doing things outside the law one must place oneself clearly within the law. How do you place yourself within the law? By getting an OK from the President. That was obtained in this case. You take the pictures so no one will say you are hiding anything.