Rep McGovern says Kerry helps give Obama breathing room to decide policy and strategy in Afghanistan

[karynnj]

“I am arguing that the president has the time and we have the time,’’ Kerry said yesterday in an interview, adding that he himself is wrestling with the question of whether more troops are needed.
<snip>
Kerry declined to characterize his relationship with the president, saying only that, as chairman of an influential committee, he “talks frequently’’ with administration officials, including the president and the secretary of state. A former Kerry aide who asked not to be identified out of concern for angering Kerry, said: “I know that talk a lot, in very private conversations.’’
<snip>
“In 2004, in presidential debate preparation, he was very cautious about how big a commitment you make to Afghanistan beyond dealing with the dangers that could project themselves beyond the country,’’ said the former aide.

In 2007, Kerry called for 5,000 elite Special Forces troops to be sent to Afghanistan.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2009/09/30/kerry_using_his_clout_to_shape_afghanistan_strategy/

This is a very balanced good article.
Representative McGovern's quote that Kerry is advocating some breathing room puts it in very nice perspective.

Kerry spoke often of it being wrong not to be willing to speak out against a policy that is wrong. On April 22, 2006, the 35th anniversary of when he spoke before the Senate in 1971, Senator gave an amazing speech on the right and responsibility to dissent. What he says of Iran then, could become to be true of Afghanistan;

"Once again we are imprisoned in a failed policy. And once again we are being told that admitting mistakes, not the mistakes themselves, will provide our enemies with an intolerable propaganda victory. Once again we are being told that we have no choice but to stay the course of a failed policy. At a time like this, those who seek to reclaim America’s true character and strength must be respected."

http://www.kerry.senate.gov/v3/cfm/record.cfm?id=254631

How strange it must be for Kerry to be advocating changing action on a war for the third time - once as a young vet, once as a Senator of the opposition, who nearly was President, and potentially now, as the Chair of the committee he spoke to in 1971 and a friend and ally of the President.

[ShortnFiery]

1. Hey John, remember this? " How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a lie?"

It takes NO cover to do what's MORALLY CORRECT and shag our Empire wannabe asses out of the ME arena. :thumbsdown:

[karynnj]

2. your quote is wrong,

and the reason we went into Afghanistan was not a mistake or a lie. The problem was what we did when we got there. The mission was supposed to be to get OBL and to not allow AQ a safe haven.

Judging from his own comments in 2006, in the op-ed he wrote and his comments in committee, he clearly does remember those words and he has a sense of genuine commitment to try to help the President get the right policy. His committee hearings and words are more likely to persuade President Obama than attacks like yours.

[ShortnFiery]

3. Yeah, 15 of 19 Hijackers had a home of record of SAUDI ARABIA.

Why are we continuing to support STATE SPONSORED TERROR against the NATIVE Afghan people?



BTW my quote is close to spot on but here ya go for SPOT ON accuracy:

"How Do You Ask a Soldier to be the last person to die for a lie?"

[karynnj]

4. Who are you quoting?

That was NOT what John Kerry said in 1971.

The Taliban gave a safe haven to AL Qaeda. That is completely undeniable.

[ShortnFiery]

5. Damn, the Taliban was scared shitless - WE SUPPORTED al quaeda before 9/11

Hell, we essentially CREATED THEM.

Why are we torturing the Afghani PEOPLE for what we created?!?

Here's another Kerry quote - he should refer to his words about the Vietnam disaster more often:

We were sent to Vietnam to kill Communism. But we found instead that we were killing women and children.
John Kerry

War crimes in Vietnam are the rule, not the exception.
John Kerry
On Vietnam, May 1971

"There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down."

John Kerry
On Vietnam, April 18, 1971

[Inuca]

6. They could have had

a "home of record" in Germany or France or even the US, it's irrelevant. AQ was at the time clearly based in Afghanistan and operating with the open support of the Taliban regime.

The quote is "to die for a mistake", not that it matters much...

[ShortnFiery]

8. So we TERRORIZE an entire sovereign nation because the al quaeda we encouraged to be there

during the USSR invasion .... A FEW OF THEM went astray?!?

Hell, what USA city do we bomb next? If we live up to this meme, we should, as David Rovics croons, "Bomb Ourselves."

What part of "we created them can you not take responsibility for?

The average Afghani citizen did not deserve our state sponsored terrorism?

THE WORLD does not fear Iran near as much as the THUG and MURDERING might of rogue nations known as the USA and Israel. :thumbsdown:

[Inuca]

10. I was talking about the initial motivation

for going to Afghanistan. What happened later is a different story.

On the other hand, I do have problem with your exaggerations, too many to counter. Just as an example, the US helped AQ in the 80s but no, we did not CREATE them. And one more, the US is NOT a rogue nation, not now, not even under Bush, and neither is Israel.

End of discussion as far as I am concerned, because it is too irrational.

[ShortnFiery]

12. Irrational? No it's spot on. Where should we bomb next?

Instead of treating these as "police actions" ... let's do what we do in Afghanistan, Pakistan, UAE etc., and send a drone in next time.

Hell, we'd need fewer FBI agents - didn't we just pick up a suspected "terrorist" in Colorado. How about we send in a gunship and take out the rest of their family too? :sarcasm:

That's exactly what we are doing in the Middle East. State sponsored terrorism. No, it's a fact and that's what disturbs you.

[karynnj]

15. Gee - which Presidential nominee famously spoke of using primarily police actions and intelligence?

[karynnj]

11. Then it would stand to reason you agree that there is a need to assess and

possibly change the policy? As to his words, he said them and he knew when he did that they would cost him dearly - but they were important to say. In doing so he made a change.

The fact is that there is huge pressure on President Obama to add 40,000 more troops to the 21,000 more troops added in March. The leaked McChrystal report and the comments of a few other military people are being used to make that a fait accompli. This is a potential turning point.

Kerry, along with Levin and Reed, are among the few powerful people publicly defending the President taking time before committing those troops. It seems obvious to me - and apparently to Rep McGovern and the author of the article, that Kerry is speaking to give Obama some cover and to possibly make this a turning point. One clue that the neo-cons fear he could help is the rapidity with which they attacked him in response. (Here is a link to their attack by a young neocon, who has the chutzpah to say that JK missed the lessons of Vietnam - http://blog.heritage.org/2009/09/29/senator-kerry-misses-the-lessons-of-vietnam/ )

[ShortnFiery]

13. He doesn't have the moral courage to do it, but if President Obama wants detente in

the Middle East, he'd immediately begin to EXTRACT our combat troops from those two sovereign nations.

He won't but don't come crying to me when the drum beat of war gets so loud, they'll be pressuring US to send our sons and daughters over to the Middle East to kill and die in the Oil Wars. :(

[karynnj]

14. And attacking one of the strongest voices that is countering the hawks in the administration

helps stop the march to war! :sarcasm:

Not to mention, I think the President has the moral courage to do what HE thinks is the right thing to do - which is not necessarily what you want doen.

[ShortnFiery]

16. I think, as the late Geoge Carlin quipped, that Obama is now part of a big club.

... and you and I ain't in it! :shrug:

"Forget the politicians. The politicians are put there to give you the idea that you have freedom of choice . . . you don’t. You have no choice. You have owners. They own you. They own everything. They own all the important land. They own, and control the corporations. They’ve long since bought, and paid for the Senate, the Congress, the state houses, the city halls, they got the judges in their back pockets and they own all the big media companies, so they control just about all of the news and information you get to hear. They got you by the balls. They spend billions of dollars every year lobbying . . . lobbying, to get what they want . . . Well, we know what they want. They want more for themselves and less for everybody else, but I’ll tell you what they don’t want . . . they don’t want a population of citizens capable of critical thinking. They don’t want well informed, well educated people capable of critical thinking. They’re not interested in that . . . that doesn’t help them. That’s against their interests. That’s right. They don’t want people who are smart enough to sit around a kitchen table and think about how badly they’re getting fucked by a system that threw them overboard 30 fuckin' years ago. They don’t want that. You know what they want? They want obedient workers . . . Obedient workers, people who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork. And just dumb enough to passively accept all these increasingly shittier jobs with the lower pay, the longer hours, the reduced benefits, the end of overtime and vanishing pension that disappears the minute you go to collect it, and now they’re coming for your Social Security money. They want your fuckin' retirement money. They want it back so they can give it to their criminal friends on Wall Street, and you know something? They’ll get it . . . they’ll get it all from you sooner or later cause they own this fuckin' place. It’s a big club and you ain't in it. You and I are not in The big club. By the way, it’s the same big club they use to beat you over the head with all day long when they tell you what to believe. All day long beating you over the head with their media telling you what to believe, what to think and what to buy. The table has tilted folks. The game is rigged and nobody seems to notice. Nobody seems to care. Good honest hard-working people . . . white collar, blue collar it doesn’t matter what color shirt you have on. Good honest hard-working people continue, these are people of modest means . . . continue to elect these rich cocksuckers who don’t give a fuck about you. They don’t give a fuck about you . . . they don’t give a fuck about you. They don’t care about you at all . . . at all . . . at all, and nobody seems to notice. Nobody seems to care. That’s what the owners count on. The fact that Americans will probably remain willfully ignorant of the big red, white and blue dick that’s being jammed up their assholes everyday, because the owners of this country know the truth. It’s called the American Dream cause you have to be asleep to believe it . . .”
The OWNERS of this country - the big corporate interest holders - OWN US.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?client=safari&rls=en&q=Carlin%20Big%20Club&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wv#

[ProSense]

17. Do you salivate every time you see the name Kerry? Your hero Kucinich voted for the Afghanistan.

[ShortnFiery]

19. I don't idol worship any politician. Kerry has lost perspective since he entered The Big Club.

:shrug:

[karynnj]

21. I fail to see how you can read the WSJ oped and say that he has lost perspective

There is a similar motivation in that oped - arguing for examining every assumption behind any strategy or policy and making sure that we have a policy that matches our goals - to what he was asking for in 1971. The difference is that here he is trying to insure that we have a policy that makes sense. This is not any different than when he made the case for Kerry/Feingold.

However, I can see that neither of us will convince the other. All I can say is that Kerry and anyone else pushing to allow a thorough review is working to prevent the lock step escalation that otherwise would happen. They may not succeed - Obama might take the path of least resistance or even after a review, he may become convinced that the counterinsurgency approach is the right one.

Sorry, but cynicism is not always more intelligent, more mature or wiser. Senator Kerry has, in his life, stood against the "big club" at least 3 times - even though - if I believed as you do - that he risked being denied entrance to the club or kicked out each time he did this. I assume that Kerry could easily find something more fun to do than to go to Afghanistan next month.

[politicasista]

23. Bet they do

It makes their hearts race and heads explode.

[Inuca]

7. That was what his recent op-ed

did as well.

[karynnj]

9. His is the op-ed that you and the article are referring to

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704471504574438660617984826.html

[ProSense]

18. Progress in Iraq

US speeds Iraq withdrawal; 4,000 more headed home

[GeorgeGist]

20. America's true character and strength ...

is obscene.

[Cha]

22. Says the anonymous poster on the

internet board.