GOP to Catholics: Our Methodist is yer guy.

[fishface]

GOP urges Catholics to shun Kerry
By Michael Kranish, Globe Staff | September 26, 2004

WASHINGTON -- The Republican Party is attempting to convince Roman Catholics that Democratic nominee John F. Kerry is "wrong for Catholics" and at odds with his church.

Earlier this month, the Republican National Committee launched a website called "KerryWrongForCatholics.com" that takes the Massachusetts senator to task for voting against the Defense of Marriage Act, favoring civil unions for gays and lesbians, opposing vouchers for private schools, and taking stands on abortion and other issues that are contrary to church teachings.

The GOP site points out where Kerry, a Catholic, is at variance with the Vatican. A section on Kerry's stance on same-sex unions, for example, is headlined: "Kerry Said Vatican Should Not Instruct Catholic Politicians, Calling It 'Inappropriate.' "

The site suggests that Bush, a Methodist, has a stronger record on Catholic values.

Private groups also have been urging Catholics to oppose candidates who favor abortion and other issues the church condemns. Earlier this month, a nonprofit organization called Priests for Life announced a $1 million campaign, including television commercials, aimed at persuading voters to support candidates who oppose abortion. Another nonprofit, Catholic Answers, is issuing millions of voter guides that list five "nonnegotiable" issues for Catholic voters: abortion, euthanasia, embryonic stem cell research, human cloning, and "homosexual marriage."

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/09/26/gop_urges_catholics_to_shun_kerry/

[whistle]

1. George W Bush is the second coming, he is Christ.....

...amazing!

[Bullshot]

2. A recent LTTE in the Toledo Blade pointed out that Kerry

had a 90% voting record with the Catholic Church on its major issues, which included health care, trade, war and a host of other issues. The big hangup with Kerry and the Catholic Church is that many Catholics and their clergy are pre-disposed to voting Republican, so they try to pigeonhole the entire presidential election debate on abortion.

Never mind that Bush took us to a war that the Vatican has condemned. Never mind that Bush supports capital punishment and has mocked some of the people he sent to their deaths, and the Vatican is opposed to capital punishment.

Don't get sucked into a dialogue with a cafeteria Catholic. You'll never win.

[JPJones]

3. That will work for some Catholics, but Kerry will win

>65% among Catholics. Consider this - how many 10 child Catholic families do you know any more? Clearly, the majority of Catholics are going against the church teaching against BC (birth control, not Boston College).

[jody]

4. Bush is a poor supporter of Methodist values, e.g.

Disarmament
QUOTE
The arms race goes on. The United Methodist Church supports the abolition of nuclear weapons and initiatives in every part of the world that move toward the goal of disarmament. This web page provides information and advocacy tools for United Methodists to end the arms race by cutting military spending, abolishing nuclear weapons, controlling the international arms trade, support for the Land Mine Treaty and stopping the use of child soldiers. War making must become obsolete.
UNQUOTE

And more from the United Methodist Church “Book of Discipline”

[Cha]

5. The top Methodist in the US was AGAINST

going into Iraq! Bet they don't advertise that!

Does * even go to church?

I know several catholics who are voting for Kerry even though they are against pro choice..they think our Country is more important than one issue.

[Pirate Smile]

6. Social Justice, taking care of the poor and sick, only just war, hmmm

that doesn't sound like Bush.

[n2mark]

7. Catholic Vote

This is one Catholic vote that does not go to Shrub. I just can't understand Catholics who vote for Shrub. He says it is okay to lie (by his example), he says it is okay to cheat (by his example), he says it is okay to smear others (by his example). These are not the Catholic values I was taught.

The Catholic Church are telling their members to vote for whoever they want.. This came out about a month.

[George_Bonanza]

8. A lot of churches opposed the Iraq War

Methodists, Baptists, Catholics, etc. I can't think of one non-politically motivated church that actually endorsed the war.

[n2mark]

10. Crap!

Just walked out of Church this morning. After an earlier post saying that the Catholic Church said to vote for whoever we want, this was posted in our bulletin this morning. I was so angry that I walked out as Mass was starting.

It said there are five issues that the Church teaches as morally wrong and are not negotiable:

- Abortion and infanticide
- Euthanasia (Mercy Killing)
- Embryonic stem cell research
- Human cloning
- Homosexual unions

They continued in their article to say "there are many other issues, but these are the only non-negotiable ones. If no candidate for a particular office meets all the criteria you have the choice to vote for the one who appears least likely to promote an immoral agenda, write in your own candidate or just not vote at all for that particular office."

Another statement "The Catholic Church, as a major leader in the world, has the duty of offer governments God's true vision. Historically, priests and ministers have preached about voting. The founding fathers sought to separate church and State in the sense of prohibiting any church from becoming the official church of the nation. It was never meant to censure what churches could preach."

So, I guess what they are saying is.... it is okay to blow up people and children, lie, cheat, steal and smear; some duplicity here.

[progressivebydesign]

11. I mean this nicely... why do you still go to a church like that?

I just don't understand why people continue to patronize and support a church that goes against what they personally believe? If those things were printed in my church bulletin, I'd find another church. I sometimes think that is what is wierd about the Catholic Church (I was raised a Catholic, had no interest in continuing it when I grew up), is that people seem to be Catholic for life, even though.. once they grow up and see that the Church is at odds with their own beliefs, they stay with it. Big Churches are all about money and control... I just couldn't support them if they are working at odds to what I think is important.

Sounds like the RNC got to your church. They were OH SO careful to make sure they didn't use a specific candidate's name.. but it was obvious what they meant. I'm sure the RNC gave them examples of how to word those things to stay in good stead with the IRS.

[alcuno]

19. They got that from some "Catholic" voter's guide. Let me explain.

As a Catholic, you know that we generally do not get politics at mass; Catholics don't want to be told by priests and bishops how they should vote.

Most Catholics, including myself, consider the the tenets of the Catholic Church to be the things that bind us together. All this other stuff is just noise.

And in the words of my staunch Catholic mother, opposition to many things (such as stem-cell research) is pointless since it will be over run by the forward movement of time.

BTW - You're right, I consider you to be a Catholic.

[JPJones]

17. Outrageous. Here's a link to the article

http://www.catholic.com/library/voters_guide.asp

It's a private organization. Kind of like a Catholic "Focus on the Family".

Maybe you should have a talk with your priest. Submit an article about how the bishop's encourage Catholics to look not only at abortion:

http://www.usccb.org/faithfulcitizenship/bishopStatement.html#8
The Catholic community is a diverse community of faith, not an interest group. Our Church does not offer contributions or endorsements. Instead, we raise a series of questions, seeking to help lift up the moral and human dimensions of the choices facing voters and candidates:

1. After September 11, how can we build not only a safer world, but a better world?more just, more secure, more peaceful, more respectful of human life and dignity?
2. How will we protect the weakest in our midst--innocent unborn children? How will our nation resist what Pope John Paul II calls a "culture of death"? How can we keep our nation from turning to violence to solve some of its most difficult problems--abortion to deal with difficult pregnancies; the death penalty to combat crime; euthanasia and assisted suicide to deal with the burdens of age, illness, and disability; and war to address international disputes?
3. How will we address the tragic fact that more than 30,000 children die every day as a result of hunger, international debt, and lack of development around the world, as well as the fact that the younger you are, the more likely you are to be poor here in the richest nation on Earth?
4. How can our nation help parents raise their children with respect for life, sound moral values, a sense of hope, and an ethic of stewardship and responsibility? How can our society defend the central institution of marriage and better support families in their moral roles and responsibilities, offering them real choices and financial resources to obtain quality education and decent housing?
5. How will we address the growing number of families and individuals without affordable and accessible health care? How can health care better protect human life and respect human dignity?
6. How will our society combat continuing prejudice, overcome hostility toward immigrants and refugees, and heal the wounds of racism, religious bigotry, and other forms of discrimination?
7. How will our nation pursue the values of justice and peace in a world where injustice is common, desperate poverty widespread, and peace is too often overwhelmed by violence?
8. What are the responsibilities and limitations of families, community organizations, markets, and government? How can these elements of society work together to overcome poverty, pursue the common good, care for creation, and overcome injustice?
9. When should our nation use, or avoid the use of, military force--for what purpose, under what authority, and at what human cost?
10. How can we join with other nations to lead the world to greater respect for human life and dignity, religious freedom and democracy, economic justice, and care for God's creation?

[Demoiselle]

28. The post you cite absolutely contradicts the position of the Vatican...

The Vatican came out several months ago with a statement that said ALL of the issues...war, capital punishment, abortion, poverty, etc.etc. could and should be taken into account by Catholic voters. There ARE no "non-negotiable" issues.

[Lefty48197]

9. Catholics that think Bush should worry about his own salvation.com

What a bunch of dicks Republicans are. Soon they'll start telling Blacks that Democrats aren't their friends either. Dicks.

[DemBones DemBones]

20. There's a group whose time has come: Catholics Who Think Bush*

Should Worry About His Own Salvation!

[Justice]

22. I really really really love that line! I will be using it!

[mitchum]

12. That fundamentalist sonofabitch is no Methodist

Hell, I may be a lapsed Methodist, but I will not let that motherfucker taint the UMC

[SemiCharmedQuark]

13. Don't the fundies believe Catholics are going straight to hell?

I'm Catholic (sorta) and when I was a class freshman year, I couldn't believe the stuff that was being said in my direction by the fundies. They actually blamed ME for indulgences! Damn, that happened almost half a millennium ago! How the hell is that my fault?

Why should ANYONE vote for Bush, a guy who thinks that they are going to hell?

[demosincebirth]

18. I agree!!

[saccheradi]

14. I'm a little irritated...

That churches have so much power over people's moral and political decisions, and that power seems not to be governed by the actual tenants of faith, but of the Church itself...

It's a horrible abuse of position.

[Hippo_Tron]

15. And Kerry is...

-Against abortion morally but feels that a woman has a constitutional right to have an abortion.

-Has never come out for euthanasia

-For stem cell research, just like Bush, except that he actually wants to fund it.

-Against human cloning, or at least he voted for the ban.

-Against gay marriage but doesn't feel that it needs to be written into our constitution.

-Against the death penalty

-For protecting the enviornment

-For helping the less fortunate

-Against killing thousands of Iraqis for oil

And Bush...

-Presided over tons of executions as governor of Texas

-Has a horrible record on the enviornment

-Cuts funding for programs to help the poor and gives the money to the rich in tax cuts.

-Killed thousands of Iraqis for oil.

So, who is the president more in touch with catholic values, again?

[deadparrot]

16. Yes, that's EXACTLY....

why * and his minions kicked of their campaign in 2000 at notoriously anti-Catholic Bob Jones University.

[Justice]

21. So when is Bush converting?

This is really low. Really low.

Perhaps they ought to have mentioned that fundamentalists believe Catholics are the "antichrist" in order to present the facts in a "fair and balanced way"

[Justice]

23. Today's Gospel at Catholic Mass - Oh the Irony

The irony here is extraordinary. Bush has more in common with Catholics than Kerry? Please!!!!!!!

Parable of Lazarus, the homeless man, begging for scraps outside the home of a rich man, and after death being in heaven and watching the rich man (who also died) suffering in hell.

Abraham tells the rich man, sorry too bad, you didn't listen when you were alive, you had everything and were selfish.

Somehow that story reminds me of someone....hmmm, who can it be, yeah it is on the tip of my tongue....

[Czolgosz]

24. Send your Catholic friends to votingcatholic.org

It's a great website that has a quiz which illustrates that the Church's agenda is much richer than anti-abortion and anti-homosexual. It's also anti-war, anti-death penalty, pro-worker, pro-environment, pro-internationalism. Go to the website and take the quiz. It's enlightening. Send your Catholic friends to take the quiz. They will find it enlightening, too.

[DemBones DemBones]

32. Very nice quiz. I especially liked it that on several issues

my answers were 100% in agreement with the bishops, 100% in agreement with Kerry, and 100% opposed to Bush*.

I'd love to see Catholic Bush* supporters take that quiz! Some of them have no idea how non-Catholic many of their positions are.

[DemBones DemBones]

25. Last week, our bishop issued a letter saying

Catholics must not vote for a pro-choice candidate. . . unless convinced the other candidate would do even more evil.

The bottom line is that it's only a sin to vote for a pro-choice candidate if you are basing your vote on the pro-choice stance. If your vote is based on other stances, and is a vote for the candidate who will do the least evil, then your vote is okay, in terms of moral theology.

Republicans don't understand nuance so I'll probably have to explain it to some Catholics who support Bush*, but I'm up for it. <rubs hands together in anticipation>

[deadparrot]

27. Same here...

Our archbishop, until a couple weeks aqo, said that if you voted for a pro-choice candidate, you were not worthy to receive communion. Pissed a whole lotta people off.

He's since clarified and said that it's okay to vote for a pro-choice candidate, as long as its not the reason you're voting for them. This guy's an authoritarian jackass.

[DemBones DemBones]

30. So are we both talking about Archbishop Donoghue? nt

[deadparrot]

31. Nope, Burke here in St. Louis. n/t

[DemBones DemBones]

34. Good, that's at least two who have had to 'fess up

that they were overplaying their hand.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

26. The WASP's hate Catholics so why would any Catholic vote for *?

[Sandpiper]

29. So Dubya, if your such a friend of Catholics, why did you give a speech at

Bob Jones University, an institution of avowed anti-Catholic bigotry.

[IronLionZion]

33. Well this Catholic says the GOP can shove it!

Anybody who screws over poor people is not right with any church! And anyone who loves war and death penalty and is against health care can go fuck themselves cause they are not right with the Catholic church!

None of the women in Kerry's life has had an abortion, but shrubster paid for his girlfriend Robin Lowman's abortion in 1971 before it was legal. There are eyewitnesses in Lowman's family and friends that said it happened.


I know, the extremely partisan assholes in my parents' Catholic church shove Bush pamphlets in our faces after Church because they think he's pro-life. They do the same for pro-choice Republicans like Tom Ridge and Arlen Specter. And they are totally against pro-life Catholics like Bob Casey.

[n2mark]

35. Catholic

I am beginning to believe this election is based on religion, forget the real issues. I think we have our own "holy war" occurring in our own country.

My goodness, I remember when attending Catholic elementary school when we were not allowed to have non-catholic friends. If the nuns found out we had non-cathoic friends we were admonished in the classroom. Thought the church grew during the years, but feel the church is going backwards.

I do like our Pope, but it is time for a new one who lives in our world today.

By the way, I am Catholic, I am an ex-nun, I am a senior and I care about our country. I don't agree with the Catholic church on many issues so, am I condemned to hell?

The Catholic church needs to take a look at why, there are fewer priests, there are less nuns, and why they are losing parishioners? Why are there so few Catholic schools? The Catholic church needs to perform a personal examination before they speak out

Never expected the notice in our bulletin today. This just got to me... actually they are not saying what came from the Vatican.

VOTE KERRY, 2004

[mitchum]

36. This is why I have always been against ecumenalism...

the various religions/cults/sects will form short term alliances in order to gang up on we heathens and non-believers. I like it much better when they are at each other's throats :)

[nostalgicaboutmyfutr]

37. a couple points...

on being Catholic myself nd voting for bush...

- i find catholic voters to much more in tune with the idea that church and state should be separate...there are not many Methodists who get name called, or spit on et.al.

- if you look at the history of catholics in america you will find many got into politics because the private sector jobs were withheld from them...by people like bush and bush supporters

- if catholics take a look at, for example, the POVs of the US Bishops vs. the bush POV you will find many incongrueties...(www.votingcatholic.com)

- please do not forget that US catholics are an independant lot that do and support many (bad?!) things the Church in Rome would like us not to....we think for ouselves and decide for ourselves...we will be deciding for ourselves that bush's support for things we like to see does not out weigh the the facts that:

- he is an ass, and a blatent liar
- he invaded a coutry under false pretenses
- he looks to groups to support him them turns his back
- he has lowered the diginity of man

- on top of that...the church has been very vocal about the fact that one does not have to vote for a candidate because he is anti-abortion...you can vote for whoever you want as long as there are several other determining factors that are important to you.....

Besides... :) i like the fact that my pope spanked bush when he came to visit.... but bush was too stupid to see he was dissed.