What do you say to friends who don't like either candidate

[baby_bear]

I have four friends - FOUR!! - who don't like Bush but Kerry leaves them cold. Personally, I think they just haven't seen enough of Kerry, but that doesn't help. What I need is a great argument - better yet, a great article or op-ed piece - that goes further than just arguing against Bush. My argument that all three branches of federal government should not be controlled by one party works pretty well, and the specter of Bush being able to nominate two or three Supreme Court and many other federal judge nominations does resonate, but I haven't made any real inroads yet.
I figure there are tons of people out there who feel the same way as my friends -- what is the best way to convince them that Kerry is the only way to go?

I am afraid such people will either note vote, or much worse, vote for Bush.

s_m

[jn2375]

1. A vote for Bush is a vote for the DRAFT

[sonicx]

2. ask them if they are pro-choice, pro-gay rights, pro-civil liberties

if they are, then they want Kerry in office when it's time to appoint new judges(not just the SC, everywhere in the nation), otherwise wave those rights bye bye.

[RobertDevereaux]

43. Yep, it really comes down to three critical words...

SUPREME FUCKING COURT!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

3. He may leave them cold but he will be an excellent statesman

and we need someone capable of decent communication skills to lift our image back up in the world...we aren't safer when the rest of the world is not cooperating with us out of disgust for our leader

[baby_bear]

26. Kerry as statesman - I like that

And I think it's true. I'll put that in my repertoire, thanks.

s_m

[lexicon089]

67. hey

Kerry is just plain smarter than bush, tell them that.

[July]

81. We only have two choices, go for the statesman.

Bush had his chance.

Like the way you put it.

[Mz Pip]

4. One of the two

will be sworn in as president in January 2005. Pick one. There are no alternatives.

Want to keep things going the way they are? Pick Bush.

Want to vote for something different? Pick Kerry.

Besides we are not voting for Prom King here. I don't have to like who I am voting for. I am voting for who I think will do a better job running the country. Kerry wins that hands down.

MzPip
:dem:

[HFishbine]

6. Excellent

Succint and poignent.

[LiberalFighter]

18. How many times have they had bosses were on the face...

nice guys but were bad bosses? vs someone that was cold or otherwise but were good humane bosses and made sound decisions?

[baby_bear]

27. I think they have a problem with "different" bcs of the fear factor

The Bush administration has been so adroit in instilling fear into so many people (hence the recent description of normally Democrat-leaning women as "security moms"), that "different" may not be something that sounds appealing to them. I should mention that all four of these people are men. (All my women friends are totally pro Kerry.)

I think it's a macho thing (sorry if that offends anyone). All four of these guys have that sort of mindset. They are not going to be swayed by gay rights or probably even abortion rights. This is all focused on "the war on terror."

*sigh*

s_m

[antigone382]

56. Ask them who they'd rather be stuck in a foxhole with

And tell them to seriously consider it.

And if it's a macho thing, it never hurts to point out that Bush was a Connecticut native who was a cheerleader in prep school, who likes to prance around in cowboy boots on his cute little movie set in Crawford with his fake Texas accent :evilgrin:

I'm a chick who doesn't really get the whole macho thing, but I know it will always be there. The best way to turn the macho vote for Kerry is to get rid of Bush's "manly man" persona, and build up Kerry's genuine manliness. Kerry hunts, plays football, windsurfs, etc. He's also a decorated war veteran who showed incredible heroism pulling a man out of the water while bullets were flying around them, whose higher ups praised him constantly for his excellent leadership under pressure, no matter what lies the SBLB try to tell about that.

So Kerry doesn't tell cute little "folksy" jokes. We suffered the tragic murder of 3,000 innocent civilians three years ago. Since then, we've lost troops in two wars, one of which is now spiraling out of control and the other of which does not have the support it needs to fully succeed. Meanwhile, the terrorists who participate in such attacks have continued to multiply, and two dangerous nations have been unfettered in their efforts to develop nuclear weapons. We've lost jobs to outsourcing and to a tanking economy, gas prices keep going up, and the deficit is soaring while we borrow money from China. I don't really think this is the time for a guy who tells cute jokes.

You'd rather have a beer with Bush? Guess what: so would Ken Lay.

Sorry for the rant, but I do feel better now.

[Booster]

84. If it's a macho thing, you need new friends. How can any macho

man look at what Bush did when he was in the Nat'l Guard (Hell, he wasn't even man enough to complete that) and then tell them to look at what he did on 9/11 - have they even seen Moore's movie. No macho man could look at that movie and say Bush was a real man. They're just blowing smoke up your butt and being wussies themselves by whining "I can't decide, I can't decide" - Man, I don't want any one of them to run for president either. Tell them to grow up.

[Lindacooks]

55. Beautiful!!

It does seem that too many people never get out of the Prom King/Student Body President crap from high school. Look, you're never going to have lunch with the guy, he is not going to live next door to you, and you won't work in the same office. So it matters not one tiny little bit if you LIKE him or not. Do you agree with his stand on the issues? THEN VOTE FOR HIM. Sheesh.

[HFishbine]

5. This worked with one.

It's like a football game. You can't go for the endzone with every play, but you have to decide who's going to move the ball down the field in the direction you want to go on the next play.

[Mz Pip]

9. I am reminded

of Samantha Bee's undecided voter segment on The Daily Show. She rounded up a bunch of undecided voters and said (and I paraphrase)

We've got two guys here who could not be more different, their policies are clear - so WHAT THE F*CK IS YOUR PROBLEM???

I sometimes think "undecideds" just like the extra attention. :-)

MzPip
:dem:

[baby_bear]

28. One problem with that, HFishbine

I know nothing about football and these guys know it. I would be laughed out of the bar. Now, if you could phrase it in baseball terminology, I would be just fine, since that's my sport.

s_m

[PermanentRevolution]

57. Baseball, huh?

Well, a run's a run. A homerun may be flashier, but a couple of base hits still puts you up on the scoreboard just the same.

[HFishbine]

68. You tell me then...

How about, "Sometimes you have to bunt to advance the runner"?

[Warpy]

7. Ask them how much they like what's happened over the last

four years: intelligence that was ignored and priorities misplaced that led to the largest attack on US soil in history; an abandoned hunt for the terrorist organization that launched the attack in favor of a fool's errand in Iraq; a fiasco in Iraq; the destruction of decades old international alliances; the abandonment of treaties like the GC which were part of US law for decades, and which have saved countless lives in previous wars; the worst economy of any president in the past 100 years, and that includes Hoover; unpunished corporate malfeasance that has cost ordinary people billions; a national debt that will cripple us for decades to come...

Then ask them how much they want four more years of this incompetence.

Kerry's not a backslapper at a kegger, but he has a chance to do better than Bush has done. We know what Bush will do, and it can't possibly get much worse.

Anyone who is still considering Bush after his four years of bungling is dishonest, stupid, or insane.

[sbj405]

8. If it were a job, would you rehire * ?

You have the choice of someone's who's had the job and failed - miserably. Or you have a candidate who has a solid legislative history and a plan for this nation. It's hard, I can't imagine anyone not wanting to vote or have an interest in this.

[LiberalFighter]

20. I would even go so far as to hire a high school graduate if...

I thought he had the ability to do the job better.

[baby_bear]

30. Why would you vote for a miserable failure?

Is that what you are getting at, sbj405?

I could work that in there. Maybe if nothing else, it would humiliate them into not voting for Bush.

I have to be careful not to come across as criticizing their intelligence, which is hard to do when it comes to this decision.
Especially after two or three beers...

s_m

[sbj405]

36. Someone recently posted the Bush "resume"

It's worth printing out for them, because a lot of people seem to be oblivious to *'s record - which is abysmal. Like for example, today I hear on the radio him bragging about signing his 4th tax cut in as many years. Umm yeah, and despite not seeing any more money (for most of us), we'll be paying for it. Either in decreased services or increased local taxes. Awhile back, I saw an analysis of the Bush tax cut for the "average family" and they actually determined that it costs more b/c local taxes and programs that were subsidized are no longer. For example, most DMVs have hikes fees to cover decreases in funding. Schools have institutes "pay to play." These are all the hidden effects of the * tax cuts. Most people don't make these connections.

[baby_bear]

53. you know, it's a tough sell to certain people who are rich

Two of my four friends are planning to vote from their peronal pocketbooks with no consideration to social issues.

A recent article in the Seattle P-I found only two Mariners who would be leaning toward Kerry, and every one of the Bush voters said it was because of personal tax breaks.

And I am a huge Mariners fan. Crap,


s_m

[PermanentRevolution]

59. It's a tough sell...

...but you can try and appeal to a sense of national pride. Government isn't just about what makes life better for you as an individual. It's about what makes life better for America as a whole. A lot of people have lost sight of the greater good behind social programs. Tax cuts benefit the individual, but do nothing to make America a stronger or nobler country, to make our country not just the strongest or most profitable country, but to make it the safest, the most generous, the most humanitarian, the cleanest, the best.

We're voting for more than just our own selfish interests. We're voting to take our country one step closer to being what we know in our hearts it should be. We're voting to make this country a better place, a place where no-one is marginalized or trivialized, where no-one is forgotten and no-one slips through the cracks. It's been said before, by better writers than I. We vote to form a more perfect union, establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty for ourselves and our posterity. And we do that one step at a time, and we do it by putting the good of the nation over our own selfish interests.

Our nation is more than just the sum of its parts, our strength comes from more than just the strength of each individual. Our strength comes from the actions we take and the deeds we do to improve the lives of strangers we will never meet, and whose trials and triumphs we will never know. And it comes from the knowledge that, though we may never know of the good that we do, our lives are nonetheless enriched by those selfless acts of kindness to those unseen faces and unknown lives.

When you put it that way, being a liberal sounds pretty damn good.

[baby_bear]

77. Nicely put, Permanent Revolution

Not everyone is voting for selfish gain only. I was complaining about an article I recently read that reported that all but two of the Seattle Mariners baseball players who were asked, said they were going to vote for Bush, and each one gave tax cuts as the reason.

My friend said I should be pleasantly surprised that two of the said they were for Kerry.

s_m

[bain_sidhe]

86. what good is a tax cut when the peasants are storming the gates?

past a certain point, tax cuts are counter-productive for the rich, because they incite revolution in the ranks below.

[baby_bear]

95. That's the problem: no one is storming the gates

They found out in December 2000 that we would be complacent even in the face of a coup.

very sad.

s_m

[IdaBriggs]

10. I'm having a similar problem. I think the problem is the word "like" --

I'm starting to think its a word I shouldn't be using. Kerry is not a movie star; he's a statesman. I 'like' Brad Pitt; I'm ELECTING A PRESIDENT. A lot of people 'like' the current president; they HATE the job he's doing.

So maybe the debate simply needs to be reframed: maybe we should ask our 'undecided' friends "Who do you think is going to make a better President?" Its a job interview, not a popularity contest.

[drdigi420]

11. i heard it best from someone who hates both parties but is voting Kerry

He says its like choosing between being shot in the foot and shot in the head, either way you are still shot, but with Kerry you live to fight another day.

Not my personal sentiments, but that's the argument he used.

[Rose Siding]

12. Tell them...

that at the very least, we owe it to the rest of the world that we have more sense than to actually send Bush to the WH. The mere act of rejecting him will send a message.

[Citizen Daryl]

13. I've had bosses who were as dull as dirt ...

... but who were damn good at what they did.

Conversely, I've had bosses who were fun to be around, but sucked ass.

If you want to try to have a drink with Bush, you'll have a (slightly) better chance of doing it if he's unemployed.

Meantime, let's get rid of the sucky boss and put in a damn good one.

[Lars39]

14. Ask them to be specific.

You can't change their minds unless you know WHY they don't like JK.
Sometimes it's very small misconceptions that first colored their views.

[baby_bear]

32. They say the same thing

He flip-flops.

He has no plans.

And they don't like his wife.

Hey, I didn't say they were GOOD friends....

s_m

[Lars39]

33. Dig a little deeper with the conversation.

Surely they can be more specific than that.

[July]

82. Ask them to listen to Kerry speak or check out his website.

Flip-flops, no plans, scary Teresa = stuff the team that wants to beat Kerry are saying, because they don't want you to take him seriously.

Judge him for yourself, using his own words. They'll find out that all of those labels are the cartoon Kerry that the Bush camp is selling.

[Booster]

88. Just Google "flip flopping Bush" print it out and give it

to them. I did this for my nephew and he has never, ever mentioned flip flopping again. The list is amazing.

[Still_Notafraid]

15. sheesh!

those people really need to see whats is going on in the world,they don't seem to even know the party's platforms,tell them if they don't vote Democrat then here are some things they can expect

1.private social security
2.private highways =toll on every highway not just the few they have already privatized
3.private water =every time a country or town does this prices rise on a avg of 200%
4.private school only= no more free public education
5.no section 8 or welfare=huge crime waves,homelessness,famine even
6.more corporate welfare = dalmer Chrysler got a 16 million dollar check from the government after clearing 2 billion dollars in profit a few years back,they paid no taxes!! republicans love this stuff happens every year.
7.ice that has been around for 1000's of years is melting at record paces all over the world we must act very soon or we are gonna get a little ice age in our future.
8.more outsourcing-I personally think this is the real threat to homeland security not only will it destroy our economy by destroying the middle class it builds economies in other country's that will one day be more powerful then us because of it and this has just begun.
9.health care will become more and more unaffordable for the common man republicans have no plans to lower the price they favor the profits of the company's.
10.the media being owned by less and less people there for controlling how we get our information being less able to hold our leaders accountable-this is already bad enough to break up
11.tell them the real taxes is the cost of living if they cant get college loans,there water goes up 200%,they have to pay a toll every time they get on any highway,they have to pay to send there kids to any school then thats the real taxes not this 30% bs we pay now thats nothing to what it could be if we didn't have the bureaucracy's we have.big government for the most part is a good thing for middle class and poor people.

[Lars39]

16. Good list!

:)

[LiberalFighter]

22. GOP candidate Mitch Daniels wants toll booths on our current free hwys

He is running for Governor here in Indiana... he is the same sob that was budget director for the OMB under gw*

[saracat]

29. My best friend worked directly for him.

Says he is completely incompetant. The stories that I have been told are real pips! No one who worked for Clinton was ever as stupid, though they tell me some were a little shady. But nothing compares with this bunch!

[LiberalFighter]

48. Any examples of his incompetence?

We need to know his history.... I hope the campaign at least knows everything worthwhile.


His ads to me look like he is faking being a folksy type of person.

[saracat]

65. well, I can remember one story about posting all government contracts

on the Internet , in the interest of of transparency( Can you believe that one?). The problem is they are thousands of pages long and would cost millions of dollars to post. No one except other companies who are interested in bidding wants to see them and it would take several employees away from their jobs.It was suggested that this information was already available by request to anyone that wanted it.But Mitch wanted it up and on the net before the election. I guess they wanted all the contracts but Haliburtons! He actually didn't care that it was millions for nothing .He wanted it to look like they had nothing to hide. For the election!

[baby_bear]

34. Is Daniels going to win, LiberalFighter?

He was a pain in the butt to those of us in the federal workforce while at OMB. I was glad to see him hightail in back to IN to run for governor, but I haven't heard the status of the election.

s_m

[LiberalFighter]

47. He has been ahead all summer... race has tightened up lately

[Nordic]

17. Bush is dangerous to them personally

Bush's actions are creating more hatred toward the US, creating more terrorists every day, and he has done NOTHING as far as actually protecting the United States. He's done nothing to protect airline cargo or shipping cargo, and our borders are wide open.

Meanwhile, he's tied our entire Army down in a place where they don't need to be.

Then there's the draft issue. If they have ANYBODY they care about in their lives who could be drafted, that should be motivation enough right there.

Oh, then there's the $2.00 gasoline that benefits Bush's buddies in the oil industry. Record profits quarter after quarter since Bush took office. That's no coincidence.

[genius]

19. Tell them we are going to reform the DP after we kick out W

The Dem Party has betrayed us and they are betraying Kerry. In my county, if Bush wins, it will be solely because of the county Democratic Party. Only the grass roots people are actually working to help Kerry. The DP here appeared tp cut a deal with Bush's bail-out man for Harken Energy in its war against progressive Democrats and gave a pass to Bush's friend in the Harken matter and the Texas Ranger matter to take charge of voting in the county. The primary was a disaster with 7000 votes lost.

But while Dems are stupid and sell-outs, Bush is evil and will kill the country's kids with wars and cyanide in the water. We need to get W out and then sock it to our Dem leaders and take over the party.

[Xenus Sister]

21. MAKE THEM WATCH GOING UPRIVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously seriously SERIOUSLY! Make them watch Going Upriver: The Long War of John Kerry!

http://www.goingupriver.com/
http://www.goingupriver.com/john_kerry_theater_list.html (list of theaters where it's playing)
http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0407263/combined

I saw it last night and spent much of the movie in tears. It made me ADORE, ADMIRE, and RESPECT the hell out of John Kerry.

No one except the most hopeless right-winger could not feel SOME sort of admiration for Kerry after seeing it.

It's VITALLY important that people go see it, take their friends and family to go see it, and if that's not possible, keep an eye on the DVD that I heard is supposed to be released before the election (I hope I hope I hope). Every voter in America needs to see this movie to get one important part of the puzzle that is John Kerry.

[crispini]

49. SECONDED!

Take them to the movie. The DVD is out NOW, you can buy it at the website above. Also you can NetFlix it. It is GREAT! It will really let people connect with Kerry. There are some really poignant moments. I admire him so much more now!

[Quixote1818]

62. Thirded!

[napi21]

23. Tell them one of the two is gonna win! Do you want to continue

the status quo, or have a change? My hubby has a co-worker that says the same thing. He's probably too old for the draft, and isn't seeing any change in his life no matter who wins. I'm still working on him too. It's tough!

[glitch]

24. Tell them they don't have to marry him.

It really isn't about the man it's about the administrations and SUPREME COURT he appoints. Dept of Interior, EPA etc etc etc. That's what I thought before the convention speeches and I was perfectly happy to vote Kerry to get * out.
Then I saw the convention and now I am thanking GOD we have Kerry to vote FOR.
You don't need to be aggressive, just say "supreme court" or "Kerry's the only one who can stop * from looting our country's national resources".

[baby_bear]

38. Believe it or not, vidali

One of the four is an EPA scientist. He's about 60 and thinks of Kerry as Hanoi Jane.

He's the toughest one of the bunch to influence.

I suspect one of the others, about 50, who recently inherited some money when his dad died, is thinking only of those tax cuts, although he would never admit it.

The third is 80 years old and has a daughter (and her family) who live in Kuwait. The daughter reports that all Kuwaits are happy to have Saddam out of office and the Americans in Iraq. Yeah, easy for THEM to say. I just shake my head.

The fourth one, the youngest, is a bit too old to worry about a draft but too young to comprehend Social Security issues, or maybe not too young but just doesn't think about it. I know he thinks the war is stupid, but I think he is a Schwarzenegger type at heart, and thinks Kerry is a girlie man or something like that.

These are tough nuts, as it were.

s_m

[glitch]

44. Holey Moley - EPA scientist for Bush? My mind is now fully boggled.

These are tough nuts. Perhaps these truly are the bush base - where voting for him really does satisfy their own (temporary) self-interest - in which case you might have to write them off.

But even then bush only satisfies their very short-term self-interest. He is destroying their long-term self-interest just as effectively as he is destroying ours.
I do believe a lot of people like these are hiding fear and greed behind their arguments, as I think you may be suspecting.
And sexism and racism, but we don't need to go there today.

You could bring up the deficit and how truly unconservative 'borrow and spend bush' is. And the looting of our natural resources.

Load them up with arguments from genuine conservatives, Kevin Phillips would be a good start. Any of the former bush admin exposes would do after that. O'Neill, Clark etc.
Point out that their children and grandkids will be paying off this bushdoggle their entire lives.
Genuine conservatives think bush is an extremist. And if they are Reagan republicans Kevin Phillips is a good place to start, followed by David Cay Johnston's "Perfectly Legal".

Ask the EPA scientist if he's familiar with the term "commit waste". It's when someone who's put in charge of land he doesn't own sells off all it's assets (trees, water, minerals, etc), so that the people who do own it are left with valueless wasteland.

Good luck, but there comes a point where you have to weigh your efforts against their likelihood of success. I think there is a core base of about 30% of people who really do support bush for emotional reasons (fear, greed, etc). The EPA scientist may be in this group. The 80 yo will follow his daughter's lead.

But the other two are worth the effort, if you can open their eyes, show them more of both candidates. The differences are pretty obvious, they speak for themselves, once you tune the propaganda out.

Again, good luck! :hug:

[baby_bear]

52. Thanks for your thoughts, vidali

I like the short term v long term argument though I would never have thought of it myself.


I will let you know if I prevail, as much as I can discern at any point.

s_m

[baby_bear]

78. You're right on the mark, Vidali

I think I'll give up on my colleague the scientist; I might end up just pushing him toward Bush, he's so obstinate. But the other three I'll keep working on, even the 80 YO. He's got three grandchildren so maybe that argument will help (Bush's legacy, as it will be known).

The other two guys I'll keep working on, try to point out that a vote for Bush is not in their own interest, let alone the planet's.

Thanks for your thoughts.

s_m

[secular_warrior]

25. tell them it's not about the candidate alone

It's not simply about choosing between two candidates, it's about choosing between two different ways of life.

Talk about social issues/lifestyle issues, which appeal to apoliticals far more than complex policy points.

Once they understand the basic worldview differences between the two parties, then and only then should you get deeper into policy.

[saracat]

31. This is a choice between life and death.

Did they watch the Debate? Even if they didn't ask them if they want someone who believes that we must be on the "offensive " continually and believes in a preemption doctrine should have his finger on the button. Point out his instability, drinking problem ,and temper. Life and Death. That is MY final answer!

[Triana]

35. here you go...

...this is from someone on another list I'm on - she is one of those who doesn't like either candidate - however she's voting for KERRY. Here's her reason(s) why:

I hate to wreck a perfectly good political argument by injecting reality,
but a vote for anyone besides Kerry is a vote in W's column.
That is the Reality of this election. You saw the results of a third party
split last time. Why do you think republicans nationwide are working hard
to get Ralphie back on the ballot.

Your vote does matter this time. It matters a lot. Because if nothing else
it cancels out one more neo-con. It combines with all the other votes to
reject the neo-con agenda.

Every time some idiot says something stupid like "vote your conscience"
other votes against the neo-con agenda are diverted. The fact that you think
casting a vote for a name that no one has ever heard of, or for a POV that
no one will ever hear is not just sad, it's just plain fantasy.
The cold hard facts are that we have a choice. You can either continue down
the road we are on or you can do "something" about it. Vote libertarian for
city council and county commissioner or even if you must, for congress, but
don't throw your protest vote into the wind, use it where it matters. If you
want Libertarians to have a chance one day, you have to help break the
fanatical christian wing off of the republican party. Because your crackpots
will never have a chance until there are not 3 parties, but 4. You can do
what you can to break the hold of the neo-cons on the republican party on
Nov. 2 by voting against their lead dog.

[diabhal]

37. Ask for 3 minutes of their time and...

make them watch the *trailer* for Going Upriver. You might not be able to get them into the theater to see the whole film as someone suggested above, but you could probably get them to watch the trailer. It's very emotive, succint and guaranteed to have an impact. I think they'd have to have hearts of stone not to feel admiration and pride in Kerry after seeing it.

http://goingupriver.com/trailer_main.html

[MasonJar]

39. If you had listened to the Washington Journal this morn, you

could tell them what has happened to Medicare and health insurance in general since fruitcake took office illegitimately. After 2200 there is no coverage for prescriptions until 5600; however, all that time the elderly will be paying the premium.
Another point is not only the torture of prisoners, the spying into citizens' personal info (like library books), the absolute destruction of the world's (not just US') environment, but also hiding prisoners from the Red Cross.

[baby_bear]

40. Sorry I missed that, MasonJar

I think I will just have to type up a list of all such issues and hand it to each of them and ask them to think of it.

Since the debate I have also been thinking that the nuclear weapons issue is one that Kerry can claim. The Bushies have not been diligent in making sure nuclear materials, esp in Russia, are secure.

I think that is a huge issue.

Thanks for your thoughts.

s_m

[neverforget]

41. I always ask "who's your PERFECT candidate?" and they never

answer me. Then I launch into what Bush has done and that usually moves them away from Bush......

[Gregorian]

42. The debt. Plain and simple.

Look what Bush has done in just four years. Already your children (don't ALL people have children?) will be paying this debt off for the remainder of their lives. The rest of the world is coming up from behind us, and we cannot afford to take even the slightest chance that someone will throw even more of our hard earned money in the trash. That's what Bush does, and he'll do it again.

Most people respond to huge debt.

And this is the killer line- Americans will be paying money towards the debt, and getting absolutely nothing for it. It will be debt service payments. You know, like a credit card.

[retread]

45. If they are former chimpy mcsmirk supporters, then not voting

beats the hell out of the huge mistake they made last time!

[johan helge]

46. The key problem with Bush & Co is their shamelessness

Some examples:


THEIR PRIORITIES:

- No efforts to limit drug prices (http://www.pkarchive.org/column/112103.html), and trying to avoid the extension of Medicare to include prescription drugs
(http://www.pkarchive.org/column/031902.html) - to please their sponsors, drug companies and rich taxpayers.


THEIR METHODS:

- Bending science
(http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1151187,00.html)

- Harassment of opponents
(www.pkarchive.org/column/033004.html)

- Florida 2000
(http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/2002/04/29_Stolen_Election.html)

- Voting machines without a paper trail
(www.pkarchive.org/column/012304.html, http://www.democracyinaction.org/dia/organizations/rushholt/news.jsp?key=90) THESE CROOKS ARE A THREAT TO THE AMERICAN DEMOCRACY!!!!!


THEIR PERSONAL CHOICES:

Insider trading:
- Bush himself
(http://www.pkarchive.org/column/070202.html)
- Former secretary of the Army, Thomas White
(http://www.pkarchive.org/column/091702.html)
- Neil Bush
(http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/01/elec04.neil.bush.ap/)

Corruption:
- Bush himself
(http://www.pkarchive.org/column/071602.html)
- Bush's father
(http://www.pkarchive.org/column/011502.html)
- Cheney and Bush's brothers Marvin, Neil and Jeb
(http://www.nybooks.com/articles/16911)

- Dodging the draft (http://www.awolbush.com/whoserved.html)

[liberal N proud]

50. Ask them if they are concerned about their childrens future

Dept
Jobs
Draft
Helthcare
The list is like the Energizer bunny, it keeps going and going

[KT2000]

51. Ask them what this election is about

what will our future look like? How will the world change? What will our relationships with other countries be? Ask them if the deaths of the US military and Iraqi civilians is OK. How much more can they tolerate? Are they ready for Syria and Iran becoming battle zones?

There are big differences between these candidates.

I'm sorry, but sometimes I think that people vote with the same mentality they use when shopping for a car or a new outfit. Its all about ME! We are fed a constant diet of advertising that flatters, entices and promises great sex, beauty, wealth and HAPPINESS!!!

Voting is something that involves real soul searching, investigation and research. Citizens in other countries are counting on this country voting well.

To those who cannot decide - I say grow up!

[RobinA]

54. Here's What I Say

You aren't going to date him, you're going to pick him to run the country.

Everybody can't have their own, made-to-order candidate, you have to vote for who you've got.

No he did not flip-flop on Iraq (I then explain the 87 billion and the vote to authorize).

[Pax Argent]

58. A number of my friends can't stand Bush

but they are tied to the conservative myths that paint them as victims of big liberal government (they are 30-something white guys). It also doesn't help that the RW media has been smearing Kerry for thirty years and that most of them are just too !@#$#$ lazy to check anything for themselves. The willful ignorance of many of our countrymen is staggering.

[Wednesdays]

60. I have an online friend who is the same way...

A young "conservative Democrat," she wrote this after watching the debate:

"I have held my tongue long enough about this. So I will speak now. I am for neither Bush or Kerry to be reelected or elected, because if they get elected (which will be obvious), this fucking country is going to hell. I mean that bluntly, but truthfully."

:shrug:

[Quixote1818]

61. Have them go see "Going Up River" It will turn them into Kerry lovers

[JI7]

63. they need to get over themselves

[ThoughtCriminal]

64. Checks and Balances

Depends a bit on their politics.

With control of White House, Senate, House of Representatives, Courts and frankly most of the media, it's been "Right-Wingers Gone Wild!". The country was better off when there were checks and balances instead of one-party control.

[DemToTheGrave]

66. Look at the facts

War, Deficit, tax cut for wealthy, recession,only pres since depression that has a net loss of jobs,is this what you want your children to inherit? I can go on and on but if that don't work tell them to grab their shoulders and pull real hard you get my point.

[MockSwede]

69. Shit and get off the pot

Ask them who they dislike less - AS IF this is a personality contest. They should vote for that candidate.

OR ask them who they think will do a better JOB in the future - like the NEXT FOUR YEARS. Which is the only criteria we should use. They should vote for that candidate.

Talk with them about your own feelings and thoughts. How definite are you about voting for Kerry? If you have the conviction, it will come across to them, if you speak your heart and mind.

We are really mostly alike and need and want very similar things in society and with government. Since these folks are your friends, they should find some of your points resonate with them.

Me? I'm not voting in a beauty contest. I don't care what they look like (imagine a bikini contest with these two.....!) and I'm not going to marry one or the other (we all have our own spouse and one is enough for most people); I want a SMART and THOUGHTFUL LEADER to build UP and NOT TEAR DOWN our society.

That's what we need and what I want. I will not go out on the town and enjoy cold beer with them or sit down and play chess with them at home. I want them to be the elected LEADER of the USA.

[fortyfeetunder]

70. Well said

you took the words right out of my keyboard!

See, Murkans like that are trapped in the "good looking, smart-talking, who can I relate to" bullshit mentality that goes back to elementary school. This is why we are in the mess we are in now.

I can't understand why people are not incensed over the economic destruction of our country....we are less secure economically than all the militaristic homeland security bullshit.

[MockSwede]

92. Military/Economy and Likability/Capability

Very much so - economic war is the true war that never ends.

Funny you mention elementary school. My daughter is so pissed off when someone gets dissed for looks versus capability.

Since this summer, she's gotten 70 kids registered to vote and she's only 16.

In fact, she's been the capable class president in her HS for 2 years (and back in Middle School). BUT, this last year, some sour grapes (envious of her academic class standing)kids conspired to 'vote for anyone else but' and other foolish kids, as a joke, nominated another kid, who was only half interested in the post, to the class president race, too. Needless to say, between the two undercurrents, she lost the position.

In reverse parallel to BC04 versus K/E, this kid isn't motivated, doesn't know what to do, is in over his head, etc. She's enjoying the 'you got what you wished for' feeling and can focus on her JR year, knowing that she got her class 75% of the way to their graduation goals in only 2 years. He's fumbling along in meetings and asking for her help....

So we see firsthand what Murkans and 'popularity' polls versus capability measure gets the populace.

She's refocused to helping the local K/E, which she'd planned since 2000 election BS, which really flamed her at age 12! And she's previously helped out the local DEM governor's last political run, too, in 2002. She's gunning for a DEM career in her future and she's made us more politically active.

SO, young and old, we all have our parts, little and big.

(Hope 'fortyfeetunder' refers to spelunking or scuba-diving!)

[fortyfeetunder]

93. Great example, your daughter!!!

Your kiddo has a good head on her shoulders - Definitely a product of good upbringing....and I just laughed a good one reading about her election loss, and how it's worked to her favor.

Don't think it taught her contemporaries a thing, how many of them might vote for * if they are able?

(and yes, forty feet under is related to scuba!!!)

[MockSwede]

96. Contemporaries' learning curve

It may take all of this year for them to realize their mistake with decimated class organization but I'm thinking they will come to their senses, IF she runs for her senior year.

She may have bigger fish to fry by that time. She's just found our last year's Pres nominated her for VP for Eastern Maine HS Student Council after she'd been picked by her teachers to attend the Maine Youth Leadership conference this past Spring. She's off to Sumner next week to help this year's Pres pull this year's conference together.

Cannot claim much of the political upbringing - she's an old soul - makes one believe in reincarnation!

She's the best example I have for folks wondering what 'little ole me' can do - a 16 year old kid, unable to vote, out getting voters to choose K/E.

Haven't been sucking compressed air for some years but still have 'tee martooni' law stuck in head!

[funky_bug]

71. self delete - dup

[funky_bug]

72. Simple: I ask them how they like their country right now

How do they like the war? The economy? Medicare? The deficit? Then I remind them who is responsible for all the aforementioned things.

[Bongo Prophet]

73. Depends on who they are. You know them best.

And what they might respond to.
Be strategic in your questions to them. Listen well.
Smack 'em with some irrefutable logic.

It can be smart or trivial, as long as it makes their light go on.
Hell, bribe them with a steak dinner if that's what it takes.:eyes:

James Bond vs. Yosemite Sam.
Smart ballplayer that can play 3 positions anfd bat .400 vs. strikeout king DH who swings at outside low pitches with men on base.

Whatever!!!

[doni_georgia]

74. What I've told my father-in-law is - You know Bush - You hate him

Give Kerry a chance. He admits that he is basing his opinions of Kerry on what he has seen in the media and in Bush campaign ads. He also admits that he knows Kerry would be better for him financally in the long run (since he is about to retire). We've got him really considering Kerry (which is amazing since he is a life-long Republican). May not be the best reason to vote for Kerry, but for those who truly hate Bush - what have they got to lose. Give Kerry four years, and if they end up hating him - they're no worse off than they are now.

[George W. Dunce]

75. Tell them they don't have to like him

As my mother always said "I would never marry Bill Clinton, but I'll vote for him every time". He is not going to be your buddy, tell them to stop being so superficial.

[SharonAnn]

76. Vot e for the POLICIES, not the personality. That's really what we

all should do.

What really affects ourlives is the POLICIES that get implemented by our president and congress.

We really don't have to have a "warm affection" or "want to have a beer with" our president.

We want our president to propose and implement policies that will improve America and the world.

[Crunchy Frog]

79. I've actually never voted

for a presidential candidate who didn't leave me at least cool. For me, it's never been about who I "like", but about who I think is likely to be best for the country.

Let them know that they don't have to like Kerry in order to vote for him, then hit them with how bad Bush has been for the country and how much better Kerry's policies and competence will be, however they may feel about him personally.

It may actually help to acknowledge and validate their feelings before going on to your rational arguements.

[no name no slogan]

80. I saw this on a button: "VOTE KERRY/EDWARDS -- THEY SUCK LESS!" (n/t)

[Paradise]

83. down on one knee, arms outstretched, and belt out this tune:

"To know, know, know him is to love, love, love him
Just to see him smile, makes my life worthwhile
To know, know, know him is to love, love, love him
And" you will) :loveya:

The Teddy Bears
-written by Phil Spector

http://www.webfitz.com

[ibegurpard]

85. That's easy for me

I find it very easy to relate to someone like that (although I have warmed up to Kerry considerably)... I can commiserate with them and then turn the conversation to how dangerous I think the Bush administration and the Republicans have been to the underpinings of our democracy. I say that the Democrats are in desperate need of improvement but that their overall philosophy is much more in line with our basic ideals of freedom and justice for everyone and that we must get and stay involved to make them accountable to us.

[Democrat 4 Ever]

87. I'm afraid I would have to get snarky...

"If you really don't know who would be the best president you haven't been paying attention."

The only people who don't know would have to have been in a coma for the last four years. Jeez.

[lojasmo]

89. I say...

I'm not a huge Kerry fan either, his votes over the last few years have disappointed me greatly. He has, however, done lots of great work over the last thirty years, while bush was running several business into the ground. One thing we can be VERY sure of, is that Bush has been a disaster both domestically and internationally....I'm voting for Kerry!

[MODemocrat]

90. It's very hard to get people to do their homework

May people are just followers, and listen to what talk radio hosts have to say about the candidates; never questioning anything they say. It's very hard to convince anyone to vote, but they're the first ones to whine if something directly affects them.

[Vincardog]

91. Which would they take financial advice from?

[Princess Turandot]

94. I ask them if they want Scalia II and Thomas II on the SCOTUS..

and if they don't, who do they think won't appoint them.