If the soldiers voted overwhelming for * should we support them?

[TomClash]

They are sacrificing for the country. Yet I assume they voted overwhelmingly for *. Most of my friends and family who were over there are back home now. I don't want to spit on them, but since the election I don't really feel the empathy that I used to feel.

Are there any statistics on the soldiers' vote in Iraq?

[libbygurl]

1. That would really be an interesting block of votes to examine.

It would gladden my heart if they voted against *, but then again, don't they brainwash you in any military organization to just follow orders--or else the whole system would collapse if the people below would think about the rightness or not of every order they received?

(on edit, added ff)

Were the military commanders who went against * and supported Kerry all retired personnel?

[TomClash]

9. Yes, you cannot serve in the military and publicly support a candidate

[Shipwack]

11. Anyone that thinks people in the millitary...

... are brainwashed to blindly obey any order they receive hasn't spent much time hanging around soldiers and sailors. While the stateside soldiers tend to be pro Republican (its easy to support a president when you go home every day), overseas it is probably different, especially among the National Guard.

As for people that did vote for Bush, I have heard stories (though nothing I can verify, and none closer than 3rd hand) of soldiers being required to fill out absentee ballots in front of a command representative. Sure, they want to vote against Bush, but do they want their Commanding Officer to know about it?

[leftyandproud]

21. every poll beforehand showed they backed Bush by 70/30

[Bluerthanblue]

32. not so sure...

i heard on npr that the government would NOT allow the military to be polled- a rule that was passed i believe many years ago-

i also recall that with the Fla. debacle, of 2000, there was so much talk about the 'military vote' being very slow to come in- absentee ballots from out of the us sometimes taking up to 2 wks-

am i ignorant? or are there many military folks whose votes have yet to be counted????

[acmavm]

2. And if they didn't vote overwhelminly for bush* would we know. And were

they able vote for anyone else? They didn't have the luxury of privacy did they? How were they votes handled, faxes and paper, weren't they?

Who's really able to say how they voted? This is another one of those big questions that will probably never be answered.

[libbygurl]

3. Very valid points here, too! Argh! nt

[mainer]

4. I hate to admit it, but I'm having some of the same feelings

If soldiers voted enthusiastically for the guy who sent them there, then I guess they WANT to be there. Who am I to tell them they should come home and be safe? They all seem so gung ho about fighting, too.

I suspect there's a difference in the voting patterns depending on whether you're with the National Guard or a career Marine. Most of the protests and unhappiness seems to be expressed by Guardsmen.

[nookiemonster]

5. If they voted for *, we still can't blame them

Hell, when you have Limbaugh and Fox news as your only "news" sources, it's kind of hard to get the scoop on the "other guy".

BTW, most military members that I have met are apolitical. I would be curious to see the military vote turnout.

[Jade Fox]

6. Yes, we need to find out how they voted, if its possible to get...

accurate info on that.

[Lefta Dissenter]

7. I've heard on more than one occasion

that many ballots were cast under the watchful eye of the commanding officers. Also, a military mom told me yesterday that soldiers (at least some of them) were allowed to vote online, and, as everybody knows, that is far from being private.

I am not doubting for one minute that the majority of the deployed troops voted for bush. However I believe that the combination of intimidation, lack of news/information, and the predominant sense of loyalty to the Commander in Chief have outweighed any possibility of a clear choice between the candidates.

[agingdem]

8. As hard hearted as this seems...

yesterday I spoke with a woman whose son had just been deployed to Iraq...she's convinced she'll never see him again. I asked her if she had voted for Bush and she nodded yes...I told her that, while I hope her son comes home alive and in one peace, I don't really give a damn what happens in Iraq...not anymore.

[TomClash]

10. That's exactly my point - I felt badly for the troops

and now that Bush was elected I'm far less sympathetic to a soldier or his or her family members who voted for Bush.

[mazzarro]

29. My sentiment exactly

I don't buy the excuse about being brainwashed either by the military or Rush Limpbush.

[cali]

12. Yes

It's not their war. They are merely pawns. It's also incredibly stupid politically to not support them.

[agingdem]

15. How exactly do you support the troops?

I supported the troops in that misbegotten war in Viet Nam, yet, I marched in protest against it.

[TomClash]

17. It's not their war?

They seem to be in the middle of it.

[agingdem]

20. Right...

but the families of those troops should have put the welfare of their children above their "loyalty" to the idiot who started this war without an end.

[TomClash]

57. What?? Are you supporting family values? :-)

[cali]

27. They didn't engineer it

They didn't even vote for it, unlike Senator Kerry and other dems.
Many of them come from backgrounds that aren't exactly economically privilged and joined the armed services for benefits.

[Buzz Clik]

13. Is this a joke thread?

If we cannot separate our despise for Bush from the troops putting their lives on the line every day, then we are truly sick.

The people in the military take a solemn oath to defend this country when they are inducted; to expect them to break that is ridiculous. As for whom they support or for whom they voted, it's none of our business.

Let's try to keep this in perspective, people.

[TomClash]

19. Is this a joke post?

Who's talking about breaking oaths? I'm talking about voting for Bush, the guy who put them there. The question was whether you should still support the troops if they voted for Bush?

Are you seriously arguing that because they are in the military they should vote for Bush as part of their oath?

Some of the other posts about intimidation and coercion are quite good.

[Buzz Clik]

24. Not supporting the troops is certainly your right.

Likewise, every citizen in this country has the right to support any candidate they want. Voting kept secret to avoid repercussions such as the bullshit being discussed here.

It's a sad day for this country when we have such difficulty separating politics from the reality of personal lives.

[libbygurl]

26. Politics IS NOW a part of the reality of personal lives, isn't it,

especially for these military personnel who are in the thick of it, put in harm's way by the decisions made by their Commander-in-Chief?

[TomClash]

56. Read the original post

[otohara]

34. Difference Between "Defending Our Country"

and what's taking place in Iraq. Explain to me how they are defending this country in Iraq please?

[righteous1]

66. the truth

You are exactly right, we made that mistake in Viet Nam and the wrong parties were hurt

[bullimiami]

14. there was no push to count military ballots this time

by bush. actually they didnt seem to want to count them.
we might be surprised by the result

[haele]

16. I haven't seen a statistical model out...

And many of the troops in Iraq did not recieve absentee ballots or had access to any sort of voting kiosk to e-vote in the states that had contracted vendors to provide that service on the bases. The numbers aren't out yet on what percentage of troops did not have access to voting, but in 2000, it was estimated that 29% of the deployed troops who sent absentee ballot applications or had regestered perminant absentee ballot never got them. The ballots were either never sent, or came to the service member after Novemeber 2nd. That's over 1/4 of deployed service members and probably their dependants, also - service members and their families on bases in Japan, Germany, Bosnia, Kuwait and sailors on ships.

The public will also be hearing a "rumor" based on a four-week old survey of subscribers to the Army Times that the troops would vote 80% for *. Unfortunatly for most of the people spreading the rumor, the survey was based on answers from subscribers, which would not generally include troops that are deployed.
A lot of subscribing officers and retirees answered - and one should expect those numbers to go conservative.

For a better idea of what the troops feel, you need to check out the mail column of "Stars and Stripes". Dissatisfaction for *'s policies and the blatant lies this administration has made over deployment averages around 80%.

I also know that from my own informal survey on one base with two carriers, voting amongst military members seem to have been running around 50/50 for */Sith Lord and Kerry/Edwards.

Haele

[Book Lover]

18. Don't assume that!

Soldiers and Sailors are not a monolith. And yes, my opinion is that you should support those who obey legal orders and serve honorably.

[Straight Shooter]

22. I think "Support the Troops" is code for "Support the war machine"

Supporting the war machine takes money away from programs that could benefit the children of America, provide them health care, nutritional food, better education, programs that would help their parents understand how to resolve conflicts without escalating into domestic violence, and police funding for when the violence does erupt.

So there's my motto in response to the parrots who repeat the bush lines. I say "Support the children."

Ever notice how the bushies never say "support the veterans administration"?

[getoffmytrain]

23. I've seen a lot of these threads

and first off, let me say that it is a terrible mistake to starting dissing the soldiers again. That has forever been a stain upon the peace movement of the 1960's and doing it again to 18 year old Marines isn't going to get anyone any where. Since the election, this board has turned vehemently anti-soldier and that is a very disturbing trend.

Secondly, when and where did Kerry say he was going to take all of these troops home? What was Kerry going to do to get all of these guys out of Iraq ASAP. NOTHING! Kerry never had a solid plan on Iraq, unfortunately.

The thought process of an 18 year old soldier:

"Hmmm if I vote for Bush, I'll be here for 10 more months... hmmm if I vote for Kerry and he wins, I'll still be here for 10 months... none of this shit matters to me anyway..."

Trust me... from first hand experience, the critical mass of soldiers were/are starting to see some of the truths of the Iraq war, however, stupid comments like yours and others and this board like, "I have no empathy for them" and other I've seen that basically say "Fuck them, I don't care if they die... and if they're from a red state, I REALLY don't care if they die" are going to alienate the people in uniform so fast you won't know what hit you.

Control your anger people...attacking the troops isn't going to get anyone anywhere.

[Buzz Clik]

25. Excellent post.

[cali]

28. PLEASE start a thread with this post and thank you. n/t

[getoffmytrain]

30. fair enough

here ya go.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2628408

[puddycat]

41. peace protestors didn't abuse returning soldiers

while there could have been an occasional incident, peace protestors did not abuse the returning soldiers. This was a lie promulgated by Richard Nixon and his thugs (including John O'Neill who attacked Kerry).

Vietnam was my era. I was against the war. I also dated a soldier! My relatives were soldiers! But at the same time, as young as I was, I never ever thought they were fighting for freedom. I knew they were fighting for a lie, even back then. But like today, we all partook in that "mythology" of culture, and spoke in zombie tones of "of our brave boys sacrificing for us"--but we knew it was a lie. We knew they were dying for nothing, but acknowledgeing the myth kept us able to cope with the massive betrayal by our leaders.

And here we are again, the same massive betrayal, the same lies, the same myths that we tell ourselves to keep going.

I just wonder how many military will die this time, before we demand an end to this carnage? 20,000? 30,000? 100,000?

Nothing ever changes. Man love to kill, and woman enable them.

[nini]

31. Because there are many like James G.

A young man I've known since he was 18 months old. He joined the marines out of high school because he couldn't find a permanent job and got talked into enlisting. He was told he'd never have to go over 'there' because of the skill he chose.

Well guess what happened? Oddly enough they can use his skill over 'there'. At his goodbye party he cried when I hugged him goodbye and told me how scared he was. I told him the only thing I could do for him is to fight to end this nightmare and vote * out of office. His entire family voted for Kerry.

So, I'm not going to punish the guys like James and their families because some macho idiot military pigs can't see reality.

The only mistake James made was a bad career choice as a young man who didn't have many options for his future. He is now in Fallujah and told his family he wouldn't hear from him again for at least a month.. I pray they do even then :cry:

on edit: I do not mean to blindly give the hoorah stuff for the war and or the macho pigs involved. I just don't throw all the troops over there into the same pot which makes it hard for me to blast them all as a collective group - though many of them deserve it.

[markomalley]

33. We should support them as human beings but...

...as to their chosen profession as soldiers, they deserve no more support than any other murderer or rapist. We must recognize that this is their training and this is their job. Have you all forgotten about Abu Graib?? Or have you forgotten about the atrocities committed by our soldiers in Vietnam? These incidents are not isolated incidents, they are isolated only in as much as what has come to light.

Soldiers should be encouraged to re-join the human race, but, any one that has supported the cause of raping women and killing children (I know we've all seen the pix) does not deserve the support of progressive people -- except for supporting them to cast of their uniforms and their weapons and to join us.

There is a reason why the troops religiously support warmonger presidents...from Reagan to Bush I to the shrubbery. You will only be able to help un-brainwash them until you force them to confront what they have become.

Face it, if you support the troops, you support what they do. Support them as misguided people, but don't endorse their actions, their uniforms, or their profession.

[oldmanpeacenik]

58. Good Lord.

So soldiers are rapists and murderers? All of them? Not just the slime at Abu Ghraib?

I wouldn't be so hasty to paint all these people with the same brush. Some folks in the military are doctors and nurses. Some are translators. Hell, some just cook meals.

And then there are the ones who fight honorably and with dignity. Sounds like you don't believe in them, but they exist. I can introduce you to some friends of mine who fought in World War II. Like it or not, they are the reason why some of my other friends weren't turned into soap and ashes 60 years ago. I suggest you not forget about them.

[marlakay]

35. My kids in air force voted for Kerry

but they started a few years back for Bush. He is their commander and even though they voted for Kerry they respect Bush. Personally I have NO respect for the .... but the kids do and they say that most people around them voted for Bush.

My daughter also said that she thinks people didn't vote with their heads, and I agree. If any thought went into the process at all everyone would have voted for Kerry. It was like the worst pres in our history got re elected and we are all left in shock about it.

[Divine Discontent]

36. ditto

my bro I believe voted for Kerry because my Mom told him to because he was in Iraq with no daily news and he's guard. He told us that there are quite a few guardsmen who can't stand/trust shrubya.

so, my internal guess would be something like this

guard vote 70-30 Kerry
enlisted vote 80-20 Bush

Colorado Springs, CO overwhelmingly voted for Shrub, says it all.

[puddycat]

37. They are NOT "sacrificing for this country" THEY FIGHT FOR BUSH

stop this damned myth they are fighting for freedom, for us, for the country...yada yada yada. They are NOT. They fight for Bush, for rich CEOs of military industries, etc.

[Bush was AWOL]

39. That's not what they believe

That is what you believe. You shouldn't despise people that don't agree with you. Some of you sound like ideologues that it's either your way or the highway.

[puddycat]

42. and I don't think you should put words into people's mouths

nobody "despises" them. You aren't doing any good by attacking the people who are trying to stop this war. People who want to perpetuate cultural myths are only going to prolong the war.

This is an illegal war, innocent people are being murdered, and genocide is taking place. And the troops taking part in it and acting like its a crusade are responsible for their actions. I feel terribly sorry for them, being put in the position they are in, and that is why I want to end the war and bring them home.

Its so ironic that the people who say that they support the troops, are actually enabling the war and culture of death that will perpetuate it. Rah-rahing the troops does NOT help. It hurts. I've been through all this during the 60's. The myths of innocent troops will only prolong their suffering and cause more people to die. We are a nation that has become far too militarized and our love of the military has blinded us.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Karenina]

51. At some point, as sentient beings

they will be forced to decide whether their "mission" is to protect *cronies making $1000 a day or to protect the CONSTITUTION. Ignorance is NO LONGER a valid excuse.

[Bush was AWOL]

38. Yes.

[pinkpops]

40. I don't know what "support" means

Cheer for what they are doing? I don't think so.
Hope they make it? sure
Wish they weren't killing people? you bet
But he that lives by the sword etc.

Really, this is a meaningless question, no matter who they voted for. If Nuremberg taught us anything it was that everyone is responsible for the morality of what they do. I think Jesus taught that too.

[txindy]

43. Of course we support them.

If we think we've been kept from the truth by our media, imagine how cut-off and isolated troops were. Even if they voted for Junior, I support them. Well, I will make an exception for crazies in uniform who run around shouting that Satan is in Iraq and they've come to slay him. :freak: I only support people who live in this dimension, thanks. :eyes:

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[harpo]

50. do you support your spouse when you disagree?

[are_we_united_yet]

45. Yes

[lynintenn]

46. Most of GWB suppost came from the top

I am sure the grunts on the ground don't like what is going on especially the National Guard..............remeber Viet Nam

[Neecy]

47. can we pick and choose?

I have a cousin who's a major freeper (and if anyone thinks that hillbillies don't exist in California, I have one word: Placerville). He and his wife are rabid Bush supporters, as is their son, who is currently on his second tour of Iraq. The son recently emailed and said that he hopes we bomb the entire country of Iraq 'into glass'. This kid is a war crime waiting to happen.

Nice, considering they didn't attack us, weren't a threat, and did nothing to deserve the death and destruction that's being rained down on them from all corners.

So, while I wish no harm on this unsavory branch of my family, I'm hardly displaying a yellow ribbon sticker on my car. I've just become strangely apathetic about it all.

[shrub chipper]

67. This sort of sums up my feelings as well.

To be honest, I am not going to waste my 'beautiful mind' on their death and destruction any longer.

Seems like that is the reaction to their plight that THEY support.

From now on, I will be more than happy to oblige them.

A week ago, I would have been irate at the coming fight in Fallujah, but today, I feel far removed from any outrage at all. I really don't care..it's what they want and we are in the Minority I guess.

[Raskolnik]

49. Hell yes support them

If we turn into the military-bashing douche-bags that the Republicans always thought we were, then we can kiss any hope of making a positive change in this country goodbye.

Be better than that.

[Bridget Burke]

52. You "assume". How intelligent.

The burden is upon you to find some statistics before jumping to conclusions.

None of your other posts shows a bit of empathy for anybody.

[UpsideDownFlag]

53. which troops, specifically? the 18 year old private....or the 45 y/o Col.?

you need to appreciate the difference. the vast majority of our 'troops' as in Boots on the Ground, are 18-25 year old enlistees who chose the marines/army because of the lack of college or a good job. these are people we should be embracing with a message of populism.

the older officers, however- they're in it for the long haul, and are generally committed to the military/industrial complex idea. they're probably unreachable, and if you want to not suppport any of our troops, choose them.

however, if you're going to trash some teenager who's following orders in a situation he didn't create...I must respectfully say that i find your guts to be unappealing.

[msgadget]

54. Yes, of course

The president is their Commander in Chief, right or wrong. In the heat of battle their primary concerns transcend politics or even why they're where they are. It's all about survival. They have to have faith in the chain of command and their mission to do what they do. I support them fully.

[Hekate]

55. Hey! NO spitting! Get your head on straight. Support is...

Make an effort to distinguish between the troops and the policies -- the soldiers aren't the ones who declare war. Individual soldiers have an obligation to behave honorably and not commit atrocities or war crimes, but they are NOT the ones who got us into this fiasco. Beyond that, once a person is actually sworn in they have little or no leeway in second-guessing commands or refusing orders.

My friends in the Vets for Peace say, "Support the troops, not the policies," and point out that the best way to support them is by working to end the use of war as an instrument of foreign policy. Your friends or relatives who are currently serving may need to believe this war is right just to keep their sanity. If they are in or near combat, they are in Hell. When they return, some of that Hell will live on in them.

You can support the troops by advocating for adequate veterans' mental and physical health benefits. You can support the troops by encouraging them to join a vets organization when they come home, or by letting them know that even if they don't think they need a support group, they should be looking out for their buddies who may be faltering.

Bush-Cheney-Rove-Rumsfeld Inc. treat our servicemen and women like little green army toys to be discarded when broken.
http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Arlington_west_121003.htm

We can support our troops by making sure they are not abandoned when they are broken. All-too-many are already dead or maimed. In our name.

A VFP friend (Korean War vet) put together this list of websites that might be helpful for returning Iraq War veterans, so they can look out for each other. He says, "We can't have another generation of Vietnam vets" surviving the war only to be despised back home for having the ill-luck to be drafted into it. Alone with their pain, too many self-medicated with alcohol and drugs; too many of the homeless in 2004 are the "survivors" of that war. We should be wiser and more compassionate by now.
http://www.veteransforpeace.org/
amvets.org
dav.org (disabled only)
gulfwar.com
legion.org
vfw.org
purpleheart.org
militaryorder.net

Hekate

[Flammable Materials]

59. STOCKHOLM SYNDROME

These men and women have gotten to the point where they sympathize with the man who has put them in the middle of hell.

[Bridget Burke]

60. Yet another unsupported slam.

Show us the statistics on the military vote, please.

[nytemare]

61. Support those troops.

I served in Iraq the first time around, and these troops have it much worse than I did over there.

These guys and gals work VERY LONG HOURS in 115 degree heat and they generally do not have the luxury of researching candidates. They have things to worry about like, say, avoiding bullets and getting blown up by roadside booby traps. They do not know if they will be alive tomorrow. Unfortunately, this is not much of a state to make an informed political decision in.

Having been there, I truly believe that most of these guys, if they voted for Bush are just thinking they don't want to bite the hand that feeds them, albeit that they are not being fed much, they just do not understand this. They have a true lack of media access.

I cannot say I support all of their political decisions, but bullets do not discriminate between Democrats or Republicans. When those firefighters and police officers were running into the towers, I don't believe people cared if they were Democrats or Republicans.


A good deal of these soldiers signed up after 9-11, wanting to protect our country. These troops have been failed by their leadership who did not allow them to more aggresively pursue Bin Laden, and sent them into a viper's nest in Iraq without an exit strategy. These guys were diverted from their goal, and some just want to hang on to some belief that their government might actually support them.

These troops have also been failed by the Americans stateside who do have the luxury of researching these candidates by using the internet and different media sources. Rather than tear their heads away from their reality TV and Fox news to attempt to find the truth, these Americans betrayed our troops by voting for the guy who told the Iraqi insurgents to "Bring 'em on", and said that the abuse at Abu Ghraib was only the "acts of a few".

I am glad I have the luxury now to cast my vote in an informed manner, and cast it for the candidate I knew would be best for America, John Kerry. I took this vote on as a responsibility to these troops. Unfortunately, the best thing for the country is not what happened on election day.

I, however, will refuse to second guess these troops who unfortunately have much more urgent concerns on their hands, like returning to America alive for their families. Hopefully, one day, they will have the same luxuries as me and be able to cast their vote for their brothers and sisters left in harms way.

[bunkerbuster1]

62. We have to find a way to articulate our disgust with the brass

versus our love for the men and women who are doing the heavy lifting.

We've been trying to find a way to do this for 35 years. I don't have an answer.

[Bridget Burke]

63. If TomClash voted for *, should we support him?

Definitely not.

Let's just "assume" that he did. What's wrong with just assuming something for the purpose of argument?

[L84TEA]

64. The 3 active soldiers that

are in my family, did NOT vote for the Chimp, and nor did their military friends. They starved on the front lines. Their conditions were miserable and most of the time they were there they spent SITTING! They said it was awful.

[op6203]

65. It doesn't matter to me....

IMO, it's not my business who they voted for (that's why we have those little booths with curtains). Now, if any were intimidated into voting for *, that's different. My support won't change based on how the majority of soldiers voted. I guarantee you, at least some voted for Kerry. Dropping our support for all troops will affect them, too.

OP

[Charles19]

68. Their young and dumb and trained to be and relate

to overly aggressive figures of authority(Bush anyone). We were all young and dumb once too and I say we cannot blame them for voting for Bush. We must still support them.

[Kestral]

69. Send the people that voted for the war

I know! Why not just send those people that voted to continue the war? They would still have 53 Million people to chose from.