Election/Exit Poll Fraud Detectives: You'll want to look at this...

[Wilms]

"How Rigged Aggregators have compromised our elections"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1671665#top

[Wilms]

1. kick n/t

[Ellipsis]

2. I'll kick to building momentum. n/t

[Carolab]

3. Read THIS part!

<snip>

"Congress has agreed to open up full formal hearings in Ohio regarding the 2004 elections. They have also agreed to take deposition of Blackwell, and subpoena information using the FBI in regards to Tom Delay's background and his frequent friends. There is still a voice of sanity left in this country.

But they can not act alone, and we can not expect them to stop this corruption alone. Contact your represenatives today in the House Judiciary. Nearly all of them are republican, and nearly all of them want to hear from you right now. Urge them to take measures seriously that the democrats are sponsoring, including full statewide trials for those involved in VOTERGATE.

Urge them fervently to take the testimony of Sherole Eaton, and others who watched as Triad technicians and Diebold technicians re-calibrated the machines. When the machine is re-calibrated, it resets the aggregator parser threads which means the original processed voters are now destroyed. Each tabulator is setup this way on purpose as a fundamental rule for their personal affairs.

Without question, tell them to have Kenneth Blackwell take the stand. Its a vital first step to democracy as if we are to win this war, the testimony of Karl Rove himself will become neccesary.

Here is an example of a letter you could write."

[LatePeriduct]

4. Yep this is pretty much the biggest story....

These bloggers unfortunately all need an editor, just like Wayne Madsen, because it is just so run together its hard to read everything in one time.

I know the author though and this is a huge issue.

They have been trying to get the attention of USCountVotes, TrueVoteMD and the research teams who now have a real state tabulator impounded.

The only hope we have of getting the result, and taking the proof out of them is if it succeeds and congress takes the whole issue seriously.

This is just like the Clint Curtis thing. He has been talking to Clint Curtis also and other experts about the seriousness of this.

The US justice department was a while ago investigating the aggregators ChoicePoint uses and indicted some guy, I read that not too long ago.

But this goes far beyond that if everything can be fact checked and combed out. It backs up all the exit poll results, and shatters so many theories about what is going on.

I agree that we probably didn't have a whole league of hackers involved to rig the elections. Its way more probable that only a few people from either party logged in and easily corrupted the voter registrar databases.

There was so many lawsuits over the aggregator caging lists, it was insane, but Florida managed to get off on a simple warning to not let the software get mismanaged.

I don't know if anything will be done or not. I do know that the EIRS network which records all the areas votes were uncounted or undervoted, contains the best real evidence we got of the coup.

I think we will really need a hands on audit of the machines to get anywhere. Its obvious so many things were kept from people that, we can't hope to make up for it in a few days.

I read one blog there that said "You can choose and guess who the next president is today!" and that was earlier, those guys already removed the notes so something is up.

If we have any hope of bringing Karl Rove down though, we have got to audit that machine in the WH press room. They are right, it contains all the logs in and out of the register services plus the timestamps for every state when those results were counted.

We can't even hope to get anywhere without that. I think someone can rationally see though, that the exit poll takers were in the wrong area in every state theory just died though based on this.

[Carolab]

5. I know. This part really jumped out at me too, so I posted this before.

(Included in the rigged aggregates blogspot:)

"Alan Gutierrez worked with them indirectly. Here's his website. http://tinyurl.com/4ecch

In regards to registration, just what was Gutierrez proclaiming exactly? In an update we will explore that more. Gutierrez has an outside relationship to the Gutierrez family who rigged elections in the year 2000. He, a sworn "liberal activist" developed the Michigan voter aggregator Publius."

***********
(What I posted before:)

Do you guys remember Jeff Fisher's information about Alan Gutierrez and Red Hat Linux at Ann Arbor? Dr. Piotr Blass's information about Gutierrez being involved? The Baypoint Schools? The Cybernet connection?

Do you remember the long, long thread about this and how we got the connection to the Gutierrez family in Florida? The ones who were involved in the Elian Gonzales Cuban refugee case that effectively mobilized the Cubans against Gore in Florida?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=76758#98755

*************

This totally lends credence to the information we were researching five months ago...and now Jeff Fisher's website is down and his e-mail addy doesn't work. The Baypoint Schools could have easily been involved in the caging/aggregate rigging.

As you say, just a few people strategically placed. And what WAS Rove doing on that laptop and the cell phone in the old "family dining room" on election night when the Mitofsky computer supposedly crashed?

[LatePeriduct]

6. Yep. That was a while ago.

Bozos for Bush and then a whole bunch of people went crazy and labeled it all disinformation.

They forced those guys who were researching it underground, because none of it they thought should see the light of day.

I think those guys were hiding something, big time and that is why they moved so fast.

There does seem to be alot of truth to the Gutierrez allegations...He did develop publius, he is involved in a mining operation, and his family is pretty famous.

But it looks like this thing could explode now if it holds its own. A whole bunch of records have been uncovered of Chalko and other programmers who are friends of gutierrez.

A whole ton of them talk about using the US Department of Agriculture as their client, and selling off tons of software and designs to the House.

They talked about all sorts of things like the House of Represenatives needing the aggregator and the whole network, to keep track of hundreds of their fellow congress, the constituents, and citizens(voters) in the district.

If it all comes out in the update tomorrow, I hope something can be done.

Clifford Arnebeck really needs to get into the BOE of these states! Look at what happened in the Ohio BOE alone, how many other BOE databases are hiding tons of caged voters and bogus identities?

[seemslikeadream]

7. The wrath of the Bozo I remember it well

The reason for the warning at the top of this page. I've never seen anything like it in the 3 years I've been here. It was not only newbies he hurt.

[mgr]

31. I recall all this on the BBV site (now purged)

I did not appreciate BFB's actions, but the center of it was a paypal site purportedly developed by Monitors to provide money to the investigative reporter, that he disowned, and was suspected of being a rip off.

I saw a different and more innocent motive to the setting up of the paypal, and did not appreciate shutting down a line of investigation, even if I thought it might be off center. Much of it had an odd internal coherence, though I still thought it tin hat stuff. I figured that shouting someone down is not the best way to address ideas and arguments you do not agree with. But some of us want to be police.

Mike

[harmonyguy]

16. A question for you.....

"He did develop publius, he is involved in a mining operation, and his family is pretty famous."

Has anyone EVER established that Alan Gutierrez has been involved in election-related software OTHER than the one ballot-preview application he wrote for Publius?

Can you please provide a link showing his alleged involvement in a mining operation?

Can you please provide a link showing his alleged relation to a pretty famous family?

A few months ago when I asked these similar questions of another user, they never responded. Perhaps having recently joined, you can bring a fresh perspective and can provide the links that were so sorely lacking previously?
Thanks
HG

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jdog]

9. I remember those threads too. Oy!

Anyone know where Conyers is on all this?

[Bill Bored]

10. Are we talking about hacking the count or suppressing the vote?

In a nutshell please. One or two sentences.

Thanks!

And who said the Congress has agreed to full hearings? Since when?

It's also not true that "nearly all" of the house Jud. Com. members are Republican, although it would be a good idea to write to Sensenbrenner, et al of course!

[Wilms]

11. I was hoping YOU would translate that!!

I think the "hearing" is about tomorrow's happening in OH.

[LatePeriduct]

12. Both.

Government facilities caged voters using the aggregators so they no longer count as a vote, and other votes which may belong to bogus people were datamined.

I heard the Ohio hearing already happened now. I'm not sure what they are doing but most of the Chairman who have legal power, republicans, haven't spoken up yet.

I saw the site was updated too and the house of represenatives was mentioned and other things, this is pretty serious.

[trudyco]

13. I still don't get it

So they profiled people via data mining and then suddenly these voters were not on file as registered? but then they could vote provisionally, correct? Are they finding that provisional votes were inappropriately rejected?

And as for bogus votes - what do you need data mining/aggregators for that for?

And as for switched votes - are you saying they profiled the voter and if they seemed nonbush they changed the vote to Bush? Well how would they know which voter was which - I thought our votes/voting was anonymous. How could they profile a specific vote? Same thing for making a vote an under/over vote. How could they profile a specific voter - how do they know who is in which booth at any given time?

I could see using this for caging but it seems like simple tabulator tweaking would do the over/under/switched/phantom votes just as well with a lot less work. What am I missing?

[Bill Bored]

15. You're missing the same thing I'm missing! But I'll keep reading! nt

[LatePeriduct]

18. Good questions and here is some very good answers.

I'm taking these answers as far as I understand them from the experts.

"Isn't the voting information anonymous?"

It is not, it is openly shared. Here is proof.

"http://www.bespacific.com/mt/archives/cat_privacy.html

"Resources to Determine What Personal Info Is Maintained On You By Database Aggregator From the Privacy Rights Clearinghouse: The ChoicePoint Data Security Breach: What It Means for You, and How to Find Out What ChoicePoint Knows about You

Related resources: No Place to Hide, Behind the Scenes of Our Emerging Surveillance Society by Robert O'Harrow

See also these related be Spacific postings, Online Interview With Author of New Book on Surveillance Society and Washington Post Examines Data Aggregator ChoicePoint"

Accenture and the government believe sharing of all data is crucial.http://www.egov.vic.gov.au/whatsnew/whatsnew.htm"Information Technology Shared ServicesThe Government Executive Series - Driving High Performance in Government: Maximizing the Value of Public-Sector Shared Services.Accenture, January 2005 - in pdf format. (To view this document youwill need to have Acrobat Reader installed on your computer).(1320kb)Shared-Services in Government. Government Technology, February 16,2005. "The majority of government executives believe that shared services are important to helping them achieve their organizations'strategic goals, according to a study released recently by Accenture..." "

For strategic reasons Accenture and the US departments believe sharing of networking and information is crucial, and a role that must be governed in order to maximize potential or profits.

I'm taking this data right from the expert.

"Is there any evidence of....

Mining operation with Alan Gutierrez?

Other family related activity with Alan Gutierrez?"

There is, and the author has not yet updated with that information so I asked them and pulled up the records for quick checking.

"http://vielmetti.typepad.com/vacuum/2004/11/sulfide_mining_.html

"Sulfide mining on the Yellow Dog Plains in the Upper Peninsula
Kennecott is planning mining operations on the Yellow Dog Plains in
the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, north of Marquette. The mining
technique they would use to get at the copper and nickel, sulfide
mining, yields large quantities of sulfuric acid as byproducts. The
proposed mine is at the headwaters of a trout stream and would
contaminate the entire watershed and Lake Superior.

-break-
Comments
Good work Ed. I added the del.icio.us feed to Net NewsWire. Way to
keep us informed.

Posted by: Alan Gutierrez | November 8, 2004 04:06 PM

Sulfide Mining Bill - Good News! Inbox

[e-mail]
to me
More options 5:20pm (1½ hours ago)
Hello Sierra Club Activists and Watchdogs!

I wanted to pass on some good news!

HB 6243, the Sulfide Mining Bill, passed the House by a unanimous
vote a few days ago (yea!).

-break-


There seems to be more to this mining operation he talks about.

http://kasparov.skife.org/blog/stuff/chernobyl.writeback
"This photo journal is amazing. Found via slashdot of all places.

It reminds me, in a much larger and scarier way, of the abandoned
coal towns and related factories in central Pennsylvania --
Centralia and its environs in particular. That's the only ghost town
I have really gotten to explore -- though I have vistied briefly a
couple in Montana. Following the old coal lines in PA was
entertaining back when I was at uni, the huge strip-mining machines,
massive houses on treads with cranes and processing gear inside, up
in the hills left with work gloves hanging on knobs and everthing
were spooky. I cannot imagine what Chernobyl would be like.

writebacks...

Alan Gutierrez


Things of this nature always remind me of my hometown. You might
find The Ruins of Detroit an interesting photo study. Also, there is
a Photobook on Chernobyl.

Alan Gutierrez

Hyper Links
It seems that html is stripped book:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/3882439211/102-0977412-
0065728?v=glance, and Ruins of Detroit: http://detroityes.com/

comment..."

Gutierrez family in the 2000 elections and beyond.

http://www.namebase.org/cgi-bin/nb06?_GUTIERREZ_CARLOS_M%20%28KELLOGGS%29

"Reno backs Cuban boy's return
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/600516.stm

Political ties

Questions were earlier raised about the impartiality of Florida Judge Rosa Rodriguez, whose ruling on Monday awarding temporary custody of Elian to his great uncle, Lazaro Gonzalez, was widely welcomed by Miami-based Cuban exiles.

Several leading legal commentators said there had to be serious doubts after her ties to a political consultant, Armando Gutierrez, were disclosed.

Mr Gutierrez is the spokesman for the Miami relatives who have been caring for Elian.

During her 1998 campaign to be elected a circuit judge, Ms Rodriguez paid Mr Gutierrez and his wife more than $63,000 for advertising and political consultancy services.

In further legal wrangling, lawyers for Elian's great-uncle said they planned to refile a petition seeking political asylum for the boy. An initial petition was withdrawn last week after the INS ruling.

The INS is also studying a subpoena issued by Republican congressman Dan Burton, which orders Elian to appear before his committee in Washington in February.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
U.S. Studies Options in Case of Cuban Boy
By Karen DeYoung and Sue Anne Pressley. Washington Post Staff Writers. Wednesday, January 12, 2000; Page A02
http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y00/jan00/12e14.htm "

-break-

[trudyco]

20. This doesn't answer my question... how can they know which

booth you are voting in and therefore which machine and which data entry to manipulate? How are they correlating that with the poll books? And why would they do that instead of just tweaking the tabulator? From what I can gather the blogger is claiming that an aggregator software is used to profile people in the poll books but in order for that to cause an overvote or undervote it has to correlate with the voting machine - your actual vote at the time you are voting. If there are multiple booths in a precinct the software would not only have to network with the voting machine, it would have to be psychic.

It makes no sense.

[LatePeriduct]

21. I think you are misunderstanding the issue somehow.

If I knew everything about how that tabulator works, I could probably figure out all the points you make.

But I still think you are misunderstanding the points. There is no reason to profile the people in pollbooks, or outside of the precincts on voting day during the day because they already have everyone's information saved.

In every precinct everybody probably votes, but that doesn't mean they voted.

After all of them are rounded up the vote numbers get fed into the tabulator, taking all the information from the BOE.

The aggregators which basically pull and parse the data, just like when it was originally mined and collected would have to have a set bias because the final vote numbers do not match the voters found.

Take out the word voters or results, and just put in straight numbers. The same thing can be done with exit polls.

They already have all the demographic selected info stored in the BOE thanks to exit polls, register clerks, and the state department.

They already have all the information inside on every one eligible to vote, not to vote, and ones that don't exist. All it has to do is feed through the tabulator calculating the results.

If the machine is already pre-made to not count straight ticket votes, then all from this catergory go uncounted it has nothing to do with who is voting.

If it is specific enough to select certain groups as applicable to the information they have, then only those select groups will show up in the final result.

[Wilms]

22. There's no way that I know to connect a voter to a vote.

You are asserting that.

How?

[LatePeriduct]

23. Who says there is a need to connect?

I couldn't tell you the full answer, but it doesn't seem like to me there is a need to connect.

They can just pick and choose since all the background information for said voters are already in there.

Like based on demographic, the voters who reasonably seem inclined to vote a historical trend in some area on the map of a state in the U.S.A can be purged.

I don't think specific caging programs depend on knowing exactly how every voter is voting, but I could be wrong. It sounds more like its affecting the registry lists though.

[Wilms]

24. Not good enough for me.

You say:

"I couldn't tell you the full answer..." & "...but I could be wrong."

In that case you've posted enough for now.

[LatePeriduct]

25. O.k I see your point and.

So you think I am intentionally misleading you?

Wow, o.k. please lay off the cooler here.

I stated that I am NOT the expert to be asking on this, and I even implied that it should not be taken in a way that can answer your question absolutely.

I was simply stating, based on what I know I'm going to GUESS and note that it should be taken as face value.

So it is not some form of disinformation, it is a misunderstanding here. You thought I could probably answer every question. The truth is I am not the authority to do that.

If you want to get every question asked in the best possible way that is when its time to talk to the author himself.

Look, I'll pass your questions onto the author so it can get resolved. Or if another person studying this, Clint Curtis, has the time he could do it too. [e-mail]

That is all I'm saying, no wonder that Cybernet mess got so bad out on these message boards.

[Wilms]

26. I didn't assume it's dis-info.

You're post sort of amount to babbling.

Assuming you're well intentioned and that there is something to this story, you've done yourself and the story a terrible disservice.

[LatePeriduct]

27. Yes well.

You are probably right, as I am trying to keep up on things over here and figure out what is needed.

But I'm really one of the lesser capable researchers on the team, and I try to form arguments and things just based on what I read and automatically suspect.

Not all the time do they turn out correct either, but I don't assume they do.

I'm trying to point those who want to make a difference, to the expert on this ordeal and clear up things about "Auditor" so he is no longer assumed to represent the whole team among other things.

[Wilms]

28. Why don't you and your team get your ducks in a row, first?

[LatePeriduct]

29. I think we are.

I think we are going to have to clear up the Cybernet nonsense so that we are no longer affiliated with it.

It just caused too much misunderstanding everywhere. We are understaffed, and finally after alot of digging material facts on what the deal is with Cybernet and Halliburton have been unearthed.

Rodney and some of the others are next to the strongest fact checkers we have, everyone else, including myself is working at it to clear up these very rediculous problems.

So our team is not perfect but no research group is. We are trying our best to get things in an orderly format, but even Wayne Madsen needs an editor really badly.

There is someone who might be able to do editing for half of us, and break down the really complex things Rodney talks about. I don't know who it is yet.

We've had to be very careful in distributing information, due to several problems that were accidental by persons like IndependantTexan, Activism, KingofTheJungle where things got confused in a horrible way and were made into a three ring circus.

There is so much information to keep up on, that not each person has the time to go through every letter possible except when it is very serious like Rodney is doing.

Like I am holding a video of hard evidence for the MK-ULTRA program. One that congress is able to view finally, but its fuzzy and it has had to be cleaned up big time. Its these kind of things in our neck of the woods that no one can ever anticipate.

[trudyco]

30. Clear as mud to me - there are several ways aggregating

effects election fraud that I can tell:
1) Sophisticated caging - this is done prior to voting day and it means automatic purging of registration lists. This is not a new idea, obviously. I thought provisional balloting really takes the teeth out of this. Can you explain how this circumvents provisional ballots?
2) Undervoting/overvoting - this would have to be done on election day, it would require a connection between the aggregator on the Poll book database and the voting machine, it would require knowing which voter is on which voting machine - the machines would have to be psychic.
3) Phantom votes - this would require reasonable fake people to be added to the registered voters database. Then it would require the voting machine or a central tabulator to add phantom votes equal to the number of bogus voters added to the registry. I don't know how sophisticated the aggregator has to be. It doesn't even have to be an aggregator, does it? The software on the registered voters DB could add any name, a correct address, etc. The only problem I see with this is how to add the signature to make it look like somebody actually voted? In my experience the poll books were books and the signature was in ink on paper. Did some precincts have it all electronic?

I only see number 1, above, really using an aggregator. The second option is much too complicated if not impossible - it would be much easier to have code that just randomly made Kerry votes over/undervotes in the tabulator and then have the code self destruct afterwards. Number 3 has possibilities if you can explain the signature - that would explain how the Republicans apparently had an enormous registration drive/GOTO drive when in most places Dem say they didn't. I don't see it needing a fancy aggregator, though. Just bogus names and legitimate addresses.

Please post again when you can make this coherent. There may be something there but I just can't tell. I certainly haven't forgotten the Cybernet/Clint Curtis/Fischer stories.

[LatePeriduct]

33. Hey thanks for pointing it out.

I'm no expert my friend. He is and he has answered these questions directly, and he does every time someone passes them on.

Its better to talk with the author.

Anyway good job.

If you read the website he almost always gives us updates.

[Wilms]

14. One at a time for me, please?

Re:

"Government facilities caged voters using the aggregators so they no longer count as a vote, and other votes which may belong to bogus people were datamined."

What does that mean?

Re:

"I heard the Ohio hearing already happened now."

Please specify the hearing so it's clear.

Re:

"I saw the site was updated..."

Link, please.

Thanks

[Bill Bored]

17. What he said!

We have been writing to Sensenbrenner for months now asking for full House Judiciary Committee hearings on Ohio, etc. All the hearings so far, to the best of my knowledge, were only the Dems on that committee. So what is this about a REAL Congressional Hearing, or is our time being wasted here?

As far data mining, of course it can be used to disenfranchise voters! The FL Felons list from Y2K was data-mined. What's new about that?

I guess I have to read the actual blog, but a quick look at it earlier today didn't tell me much. Can anyone 'splain it please?

And why was the original thread posted in GD? No offense, but WTF do THEY know about election fraud? :)

And also, aren't ALL the Congressional Committee Chairmen Republicans? So who is it that's "almost all Republicans" (or whatever it said) that we're supposed to write to?

[LatePeriduct]

19. Answers.

"What does that mean?"

How I understand it is that it means they data-mined information all over the interconnected files and links that are out there, to network the data so that voters could be purged who they did not want in the final result.


"Please specify the hearing so it's clear."

The Committee hearing lead by Bob Ney of Ohio, that started the other day about the election.

"I saw the site was updated..."

http://rigged-aggregators.blogspot.com

You first have to understand how insecure it is and how it runs on feeding voter data to the tabulators. Then you have to understand that voter names and identities in the BOE, many of them were purged to not count.

Then you have to understand the programming allows it to strip information out of the internet and all over the place where people write in names, information, and other personal details that are sometimes made up.

Then you have to understand that many of these were pulled through and parsed in each tabulator creating the "inflated votes" effect.

But because of the amount of information they are able to retrieve now, they can program the software to run on automatic. And can allow tabulators across the country to discount straight ticket votes which alot of them are the provisional.

[mgr]

32. I cannot follow where everyone is with this, but,...

This is as close to incoherent as I want to get. It reminds me of my paranoid schizophrenic uncle's ramblings about China, but just because you are paranoid....

It appears that technology that permits alteration of polling book information may be available. With that, it is a simple matter to alter the rolls or manipulate which names are included or deleted without the BOE's knowledge. The article alleges that this is being done under the aegis of the USDA, by making an odd connection between Jeb Bush being governor and the Florida transportation and agriculture departments. Since I work for a DOT, that connection is probably suspect.

There would have to be some oddities with USDA accounts or policies to be able to affirm this. It should be a bitch to do, but likely public information.

Mike