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Liberty Belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-30-05 09:40 PM
Original message
Legal question from a California reporter
If a Diebold manual states that a GEMS central tabulator should not be hooked up to the Internet during an election, but it was, what legal options does this raise?

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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-30-05 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
1. If it was, there's a case, but I suspect the time the Dibold info was
linked to the internet was AFTER the election, to transmit the data. If that's the case, there's no case.
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Liberty Belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-30-05 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. It was election night; I'll have to find out if it was after polls closed.
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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-30-05 09:56 PM
Response to Original message
2. Does CA Law allow this?
Some states have laws limiting connectivity of voting systems.
I wish more did, instead of relying on BoEs, SoSs, and other alphabet soups!
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 12:37 AM
Response to Original message
4. Question from reporter; partial answer
The state is not even specified here and most election laws are state laws. Federal laws like HAVA are only able to directly control federal elections, but as a practical matter either the condition of receiving federal money for compliance with federal law or the practical difficulty and expense of holding separate state and federal elections means that federal law can dictate state law.

OK, that being said, in most states election contest laws have among the shortest statutes of limitation known, but this is supposed to be in the interest of finality of election results, so if one wishes to contest election results, it is too late (depending on the election in question).

However, there are other legal things that are impacted by such a system that is internet connected. (more below)

Note: Clint Curtis's congressional testimony was quite clear in that no internet connection was needed for his code to both alter the tabulator and go back to the original machines and make the math come out and match -- just a connection of some sort. (another tangent here, but a lot of state codes are starting to expressly authorize internal networks so long as not connected to the internet, when the threat is not ONLY from the internet, but from any rogue code placed on a single machine, or on all machines...)

There is no cause of action under HAVA per se, but a violation of several major parts of HAVA can be actionable under 42 USC sec. 1983. States may have parallel methods of vindicating election related rights, as well as substantive laws or regulations prohibiting internet connection (WA state prohibits internet but purports to allow internal networking in very recent post-election regulations adopted on an emergency basis). The most difficult question in any kind of public law or public rights case is that of "standing", and whether voters per se, taxpayers per se, or somebody specifically hurt or alleged to be hurt now or in danger of imminent future harm will be held to have the legal standing to argue a claim. Assuming standing exists a declaratory judgment action could be brought that the elections officials violated the law seeking attorney fees as allowable by law and perhaps actual or nominal damages, or an action for an injunction, enjoining the government from any such future connections to the internet.

Although I would consider the above a reliable but very general guide, only a visit with an attorney admitted to the jurisdiction in question AND who has some familiarity with actions against the government and election laws would give more definitive answers for the state in question.

I'd call connecting to the internet gross negligence or recklessness, so that raises both legal issues and also common sense public issues about the accountability of government officials. While the amount of firewall protection and so forth will somewhat reduce the recklessness, it won't eliminate it, and anybody who WANTS to affect the election will certainly have the capability to breach whatever defenses are there, leaving little or no evidence of the intrusion. It also creates deniability if someone on the inside wanted to do something.

Connecting live election results to the internet is like the lights going off at a casino --- any number of people could be trying to do anything --- so casinos usually have procedures to quickly lock up all the chips.....

But here's what is certainly true beyond a doubt:

Under conditions of
(1) data secrecy (ballots are never disclosed)
(2) methods of analysis secrecy (the software is all trade secret and not disclosed), combined with
(3) unsecure connection to the internet, then
There is NO BASIS FOR CONFIDENCE in election results. None. ZIP. It is neither scientifically acceptable to publish conclusions without data and analysis nor is it legally acceptable for expert witnesses (for example) to testify to conclusions or results without disclosure and cross examination of their data and analysis.

Just based on conditions (1) and (2) without the internet wild card there is no basis other than faith to accept the election results (the conclusions based on the above "data" and "methods of analysis").

Based on the above lack of any rational basis for confidence in the election results, which any number of scientists and legal experts could testify to, there could certainly be legal action to enjoin election officials from operating in such a way as to create absolutely unverifiable results, or from purporting to "certify" any such results in the future.
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Liberty Belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. The state is California.
Thanks for the input. If you could pm me, I can provide further details.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 12:43 AM
Response to Original message
5. the diebold manual
also raised are questions that if the "warranty" terms are violated diebold could raise an argument that it can not "guarantee" election results will be accurate when the equipment is not used under conditions intended..... (if that is indeed the case, I've never seen a diebold manual or any other manual they are also typically protected as trade secrets)

If the manual says this, it is additional evidence that the officials acted improperly or recklessly or intentionally with respect to elections.

Whether legal remedies (as discussed somewhat above) or equitable remedies like mandamus or prohibition will apply in the particular jurisdiction in question varies a lot...
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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
7. the greater question is -
if, after an election is certified, there are allegations of any kind of fraud, abuse, error, mistake, what kind of recourse does either the public or the losing candidate have?

these questions are all answered differently in each state. you or a lawyer would hav eto look through the election laws.

i would think that if a law was broken, that the person responsible could be prosecuted, but not necessarily that the election could be overturned.
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JunkYardDogg Donating Member (618 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
8. As per the Apr 21, 2004 Decertification Orders
Internet Connectivity is NOT Permitted
These directives are still in effect
as per stated at the end of the May SoS Certification Test Report on the Diebold TSx .
There is no justification for the GEMS Tabulator to be connected to the 'Net it can be connected thru another PC.
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