Snatching Defeat from the Jaws of Victory, By Steve Freeman

[kster]

SNIP...Today, the Holt bill faces a “fast track” vote in Congress. Essentially this means an up or down vote on a terrible bill, rather than an opportunity to speak in the nation’s most important forum about what may well be the greatest threat to democracy in the history of the republic.


It’s difficult to overstate just how poorly framed the congressional discussion has been. Voting in the US is less meaningful than any democracy in the world, and even less meaningful than most nations which do not call themselves democracies. in all the important criteria by which democracy is measured – voting participation, equality of all citizens in the voting process, fair and impartial administration, representativeness of candidates and officials, accountability for violations of law and the public trust, and most important, integrity, the assurance that votes are in fact counted as cast, the US ranks in the bottom quintile of the world – not just of democracies, but all nations. On the other critical criterion, transparency, the US election system is perhaps the worst the world has ever known. Votes are counted and tabulated in secret using proprietary software without public testing or oversight. The one potential verification tool, a national exit poll, quarantines the results until such time as they can “correct” them so as to conform to the count. Even then, survey results are never made publicly available in a way that would permit them to be used to verify the veracity of the official numbers.


Of course, one would never know this from any US newspaper or any textbook used in any US school or college, but that’s just all the more indicative of the problem.


The democratic republic is in critical condition -- bleeding, bankrupt, obese, and suffering from a malnutrition-induced dementia. And for the remedy, we’re debating whether we to substitute saccharin for sugar in our soft drinks.


There are good people fighting for this bill under the flag of reform, but whether or not congress votes to retrofit DREs to include a VVPAT is quite beside the point. As Kathy Dopp, Brad Friedman, Bev Harris, Paul Lehto, Nancy Tobi, and others have pointed out, the so-called “paper trail” is for all intents and purposes utterly useless. In a California ruling yesterday, a judge declined to access the so-called paper trail even though the election was officially decided by only three votes. (Orange County had spent $12 million on that retrofit.) In every contested election where such a paper trail has been called into question, the paper trail has been too corrupted to use (see for example, Rebecca Mercuri’s testimony on the 2006 Ohio election audit.

http://www.electionintegrity.org/SnatchingDefeat.htm

[papau]

1. Good thing I did that 3 page fax so as to get our points into the record - so they could

ignore our points.

Kathy must be banging her head against a wall in frustration tonight.

[bleever]

2. Trading a trojan horse for a trojan zebra.

Elections should be as transparent as buying groceries.

K&R.

[OnTheOtherHand]

3. wow, was he wrong

The bill was scheduled for a committee markup (which was rescheduled), not for an up-or-down vote.

If Freeman really thinks that the United States ranks in the bottom quintile of all countries on every criterion of democracy, then while I would have to concede that HR 811 won't fix the problem, I can't imagine why he would bother to oppose it, either. If someone you loved were "suffering from a malnutrition-induced dementia," why would you argue about soft drinks?

[JimDandy]

5. How about because our country is worth fixing, but the fix isn't HR 811! n/t

[OnTheOtherHand]

15. that isn't a reason

As I said, it is foolish to oppose something on the grounds that it won't, by itself, fix the country. That doesn't pass the giggle test -- not that I'm laughing.

I think Freeman knows that his arguments for massive miscounts on optical scanners (and lever machines) in 2004 are very, very weak. Regardless, a lot of us know it, and it is long past time for him to start making sense. Maybe he actually believes that there is no meaningful difference between paperless DREs and audited optical scanners, but he hasn't provided any good reason for anyone else to believe it.

Even his comments on DRE paper trails are somewhat tormented. He complains that the courts haven't provided access to the paper trails, but he is opposing legislation that would actually require the paper trails to be audited. He flatly asserts that voters won't check their own votes although he also notes that public confidence in the DREs is declining, so who is to say that voters can't learn to check the paper? It's fine to lobby for a DRE ban, but I don't agree that the paper trail is worthless.

[JimDandy]

16. Since I was HUMORING you with a reply at all, please feel free to giggle.

As a matter of fact, go ahead and bust a gut. I'm afraid if you don't laugh a little, you'll expire long before your time.

I've hardly had time to read DU, let alone post replies, so I'd forgotten how anal you are about 'precision in posting' and your proclivity to hone in on errors in the minute and nearly insignificant details of an argument (see, for example, your post to Land Shark in today's ERD thread.)

You said: "...it is foolish to oppose something on the grounds that it won't, by itself, fix the country." (emphasis added)

Let me correct my imprecision for you: "How about because our country is worth fixing, but ONE OF the FIXES isn't HR 811!"

So much else in your posts need replying to, but I've got class, so I'll have to catch up with you later.

[OnTheOtherHand]

17. malarkey

It isn't "minute and almost inconsequential" to argue that paperless DREs and audited op scans are equally dangerous, or to misrepresent evidence of fraud in 2004, nor to hype the imminent demise of American democracy. Those are all great big honking errors, I think Lehto's gratuitous attack on MoveOn.org was a great big honking error of another kind.

You are complaining that I twisted your point, but the fact is, you still haven't gotten around to understanding mine. Your choice.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

18. and if you were able to succeed in your endeavors....

If you and the vendors and the anti-Holt election officials succeed in killing the Holt bill,
what do you think will happen in 2008?

When do you think we will finally have elections that are audited and transparent?

Holt was able to get 220 sponsors for HR 811. This is not an easy thing to do.

In order to get support for legislation, you have to present an option that people
feel they can support.

That means you can't get everything you want.

If people are still voting on paperless DREs in 2008, I will point them to the
link for your post and your comments.

[kster]

6. We need an Al Gore Law, No Citizen, Citizen Group or Candidate should be denied

Hand Counting ALL the Paper Ballots,immediately following the election, if they so choose, Ban the DRE,s immediately, for obvious reasons, Then move forward. Its really that simple. We are all adults here, and we all know right from wrong.

This is what Al Gore wanted, Why the F-CK would an American be denied this?


SNIP..Machines can sometimes misread or fail to detect the way ballots are cast, and when there are serious doubts, checking the machine count with a careful hand count is accepted far and wide as the best way to know the true intentions of the voters.

That is why there have already been partial or complete hand counts not just in two Democratic counties in Florida, but in six Republican counties as well.

We need a resolution that is fair and final. We need to move expeditiously to the most complete and accurate count that is possible. And that is why I propose this evening a way to settle this matter with finality and justice in a period of days, not weeks.

First, we should complete hand counts already begun in Palm Beach County, Dade County and Broward County to determine the true intentions of the voters based on an objective evaluation of their ballots. Observers and participants from both parties should be present in every counting room, as required under Florida law. The results of this recount would, of course, be added to the present certified vote total and the overseas absentee vote total. If this happens, I will abide by the result, I will take no legal action to challenge the result, and I will not support any legal action to challenge the result. I am also prepared, if Governor Bush prefers, to include in this recount all the counties in the entire state of Florida. I would also be willing to abide by that result and agree not to take any legal action to challenge that result. If there are no further interruptions to the process, we believe the count can be completed with seven days of the time it starts.



http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/election/july-dec00/gore_11-15.html

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

8. even Hursti says thats not practical

Calling for Hand Counted Paper Ballots For the US is Like Telling a Starving Man That There is a Nice 16 Ounce Steak Only 20,000 Miles Away.

Even Harri Hursti says its not practical:

As well, Hursti's position may also come as a surprise to those who have pointed to the "Hursti Hack" in their call for 100% hand-counted paper ballots (HCPB) in American elections. While Hursti said he recognizes that such a system works well enough in other countries where ballots are much simpler, he feels the thousands of ballot styles and pages and pages of candidates and propositions would likely make all HCPB unwieldy here. By contrast, he explained that in Finland, voters go to the poll and cast a single vote for President as the only race on the ballot, which is simple enough to hand count on the night of the election.
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0704/S00043.htm

The horse is out of the barn already, we have paperless voting machines all over the country,and states that won't pass laws requiring paper.

Vendors are already whining about how HR 811 would ban the toilet paper roll, and that they
dont' have any machines to meet the requirements of the bill:

New: Voting Machine Companies to Congress - ALL YOUR VOTES ARE BELONG TO US

The Voting Machine Lobby reacts to amendments to the Help America Vote Act.

In the Vendor Lobby's letter to congress, it becomes clear:
Amendments to HAVA will hurt voting machine companies,
the audits will provide an inconvenient truth, and the ban on toilet paper ballot
will stick us with lots of unsold inventory.
Vendors are not ready to give up their private control of our elections...

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_joyce_mc_070329_new_3a_voting_machine_.htm

I support HR 811 with amendments. We in North Carolina modeled our law after HR 2239 and then HR 550, and we are far better off than we were before.

HR 811 would get rid of the toilet paper ballot, and likely force the use of optical scan where DREs reigned supreme.

[kster]

10. Al Gore was DENIED a Hand Count of the Paper Ballots in

AMERICA, you may want to continue with all this silliness, but, I have had just about enough!! If an American wants to Hand Count the Paper Ballots, they should DAMN well be able to.

You know that, as well as I do!

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

9. taking Al out of context?

got anything from AL saying that US elections should all be hand counted?

HCPB isn't going to happen, and we can either choose to help create election systems worthy of trust,
or we can instead use the untrustworthiness of elections systems as a lever to undermine the legitimacy of our government as a whole.

I haven't seen any viable solutions except federal legislation, and HR 811 is the only
viable bill.

I am looking at 2008. I don't want another 2000 or 2004.

[kster]

13. Much can be learned from using Al Gores words,

he's been there and would know about these three things, when it comes Hand Counting the Paper Ballots.

1) Machines can sometimes misread or fail to detect the way ballots are cast.

2) Checking the machine count with a careful hand count is accepted far and wide as the best way to know the true intentions of the voters.


3) We believe the count can be completed with seven days of the time it starts.


The Politicians and the secret vote counting vendors, need to know that we WILL NOT let them set up election day like a bank robbery, GET IN AND GET OUT, we need to get the mindset that there will be TWO COUNTS on election day, no running back and forth from one court to another, thats ridiculous.

[autorank]

4. You go kster...Freeman is righ ton target.

"In a California ruling yesterday, a judge declined to access the so-called paper trail even though the election was officially decided by only three votes. (Orange County had spent $12 million on that retrofit.) In every contested election where such a paper trail has been called into question, the paper trail has been too corrupted to use (see for example, Rebecca Mercuri’s testimony on the 2006 Ohio election audit." Steve Freeman

Galileo tried to show two Cardinals how he learned that the earth revolved around the sun, which was contrary to church dogma. They refused to look and maintained their position. This is the same, as is the position the Virginia courts took in 2005 when they refused to recount paper forms for optical scan readers, hundreds of thousands, in an election for A.G. that was on a 400 vote difference.

No accounting for brains;)

[bleever]

7. Who knew that the Sore Loserman gag would become

their overarching strategy?

"Recounts?? Recounts are for wimps, losers, and whiners. Get over it; the train has left the station."

It's an element of the classic con game, where the money's pocketed and gone before the mark gets to get his objection even heard.

[autorank]

11. Three Card Monty...

I'd never pass up one of those games wherever I had to go in NYC. Those guys never lost.
It was amazing. Nice to know that the metaphor for justice has become street hustlers.

We can work with that.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

12. The Voting Machine Lobby Opposes HR 811 according to their statement

The Voting Machine Lobby opposes HR 811 amendments to the Help America Vote Act

In the Vendor Lobby's letter to congress, it becomes clear:

Amendments to HAVA will hurt voting machine companies,

the audits will provide an inconvenient truth, and
the ban on toilet paper ballot will stick them with lots of unsold inventory.
Vendors are not ready to give up their private control of our elections...

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_joyce_mc_070329_new_3a_voting_machine_.htm

So, we have the Vendor Lobby, Jim Dickson and the AAPD, Bev Harris (federal legislation is "meddling"), the National Association of County Commissioners
( I fought the mini-version of NACC in my state, it was the NC Assoc of CC) opposed to HR 811.

What will these opponents of HR 811 do if it passes?
What will they do if it doesn't pass?

[Kurovski]

14. K&R.(nt)