Christians - Do you ever feel disrespected on DU?

[Quixote1818]

If so how often does it happen? I have often criticized parts of the Bible and if you didn't know me you might think I don't care for the Christian Religion but in reality I think their is both good and bad in the Bible and I have only respect for Christians, well Christians who are actually Christian in the ways Jesus was and not in the Pat Robertson mold. I am a big fan of the liberal Jesus.

Not being Christian I am sure I miss a lot of things that might be considered disrespectful to you. Keep in mind when someone criticizes parts of the Bible that doesn't mean they are necessarily Anti Christian and certanly not Anti Jesus. How could anyone hate Jesus man or God? The guy had a heart of gold.

[Clark2008]

1. Yes

And, it's not the Bible you should be criticizing, it's Man's interpretation of it - whether literal or customary.
The Bible is what it is.

[ashmanonar]

8. since when is the bible "is what it is?"

the bible was WRITTEN by men. that's all it IS, is a translation, or interpretation. it's been interpreted/translated/folded/spindled/mutilated for 2000 years.

by the way, i don't hate christians, i hate the people who use the bible as a shield to achieve their own agendas. most christians i've ever talked to (barring the people of campus crusade...:scared:) don't take the bible word for word literally, they see the good lessons told by various teachers and use them to better the lives of others and themselves.

[xray s]

12. that is an interesting sign

My faith is predicated on having a free will. If I didn't have a free will to reject my religion, my religious faith would be meaningless.

It seems to me people throughout history have used all kinds of things to try to contol minds. Consumerism, politics, education, economics, advertising, literature, music and brute physical force.

Religion has been used too, certainly. But why single it out?

[ashmanonar]

14. i generally don't single it out, except when there is some

circumstance where it deserves it.

but when religion, consumerism, politics, education, advertising, literature, music, AND brute physical force are one and the same under a leader...

that's when it gets touchy. religion is the most intuitive of all of these, thus it's easier to cull out of the herd. politics is a close second.

[ashmanonar]

19. lol, i totally missed what you were talking about.

it's bc in my mind, nothing has been used more than religion. since the earliest cavemen, who had these primitive beliefs, i'll bet the people who prepared them for burial were highly respected. those who stand as the gatekeeper to god have extraordinary power, beyond mere respect. if you want to get to god, you have to be obedient to these people. and that lends itself to abuse.

if you don't believe me, look at the huge number of people in the US who believe that bush could never be wrong because he's a "christian". the number of people who believe that the world is 6000 years old, when all the evidence indicates that the scientific history is correct (5 billion years). this is in the 21st century, with a fairly mature science (with only loose ends still unsure). we're not neanderthals making cave paintings anymore. but the gatekeepers to heaven still have extraordinary power.

the more things change...

[Thurston Howell IV]

2. No doubt about it

And I'm an atheist.

I think we tend to spray the Christian crowd with a hail of bullets, when we need to be a little more selective in our criticism.

[Quixote1818]

5. I agree. nt

[Rabrrrrrr]

3. I'm a pretty serious and devout Christian, and my faith is

insanely important to me.

I've never felt disrespected on DU.

But then, I'm not one of those whiny baby "Oooh, you criticized my faith, waaaa waaaaaa waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa" people, either.

The people who make the blanket statements "if you are religious you are dumb", I figure, fine, you've told us what you think and it matters not to me.

Otherwise, all criticisms/attacks/ whatever you want to call them I've seen leveled at Christianity are justifable and legitimate, IMO.

Sadly, there IS a lot of stupid shit within Christianity, and a lot of idiots who have done dumb things. When people tell me they hate the Church, or can't stand Christianity, or left the Church because "of the hypocrisy", etc., I think, "You know, I can see why."

I certainly level my fair share of criticism on the Church, and on various expressions of Christianity, and various Christians. Everyone should be allowed to do so, whether they are in the faith or outside of it.

If we can't criticize something, than we have made an idol out of it.

So to anyone who wants to criticize the Church - have at it. I only ask you keep away from blanket condemnations or statements of ignorance, but I'd expect that from people no matter what they are talking about.

[YankeyMCC]

18. Good point :

Rabrrrrrr: "If we can't criticize something, than we have made an idol out of it."

I'm an atheist and I have to admit I sometimes have to make a conscious effort to keep my criticisms of religion focused and remind myself not to lump christianity with the fundie Radical Right.

I'm reading "God's Politics" right now and Jim Wallis tries to make the point that the problem with Bush's religion is not that he talks about and acts on his faith but that it is based on bad theology. And he got through to me using that exact point about "idolatry". He points out that Bush brand christianity is creating an American idolatry of his version of America.

I don't fully agree with him. I think Bush usually crosses the line when he acts on his faith but what makes it all the more dangerous is his "bad theology".

Yes we need to watch against the entanglement of religion and state (I work hard at this whenever I can and it is vital to both good government and freedom of religion) but we should let people express their worldviews be it religious based or secular (see I had to stop myself from saying "reality" based :) I'm trying honest) but we should also not be afraid to call something bad theology when we see it. And like it or not (we atheists) that tactic may get us further politically.

[Lerkfish]

26. agreed, with only one caveat;

I don't care for blaming liberal christians for what rightwing christians say or do, when we disagree with them. I understand why the generalization happens, but it does irritate me, nonetheless.
We keep feeling as if we are being accused of crimes we did not commit, and then when we finally convince the person we are LIBERAL christians, then they attack us for not being able to brainwash rightwing christians into liberal christians.

I have no problem with criticism of religion, of right wing or even left wing, per se. but I tire of having to correct the misassumption that either all christians are the same, or that liberal christians are somehow responsible or even able to change fundamentalist thinking or actions.

[Tace]

4. No -- I'm A Christian With Less Respect For Christianity Than Most...

non-Christians.

As an insider, I can see the real problems without feeling that I don't understand what is going on because I'm not a Christian.

[dandrhesse]

7. I sometimes feel not offended but more like disrespected.

I have a strong Christian faith and I have found so many bible verses that apply to what is going on now. I have had the feeling that some posters feel that faith is something people use instead of reason, or holding certain beliefs are hard right. I personally am Chrisitian, pro-choice and anti death penalty. I also am sometimes turned off bad the amount of swearing that is posted. I'm not a prude, I just think that there are more creative ways to express yourself than saying f*** this or that.

But I generally feel that DUers are not INTENTIONALLY posting anything meant to be offensive and disrespectful to anyone's religious beliefs.

I think it would be good for DUers to take the bible more seriously. I don't mean that in a "religious" way, I mean that if you want to verbally spar with fundies or neocons that spout "moral values", the bible has some pretty awesome amunition and then you couldn't be called a pagan and told you don't get the "Chrisitan" thing.

[adwon]

6. No

My faith is worthless if it goes unquestioned. Reasoned criticisms of the Church (I'm Catholic) I appreciate because they can make me question my own faulty assumptions. Holier than thou attitudes that anybody who believes in God is brainwashed does irritate me. That approach is just childish.

When I hear the cry that Christians are being persecuted, I'm usually not very sympathetic to the messenger. Christ was not a chaplain to the self-satisfied and the well-fed. He was the last hope of the oppressed and the hungry. His did not tell his followers to rest easy and pay lip service to platitudes. He told them to take up their crosses and follow Him.

[Old and In the Way]

9. Practicing ex-Catholic here.

Don't know why a person should feel disrespected here. This isn't a church group, afterall. It's the Democratic Underground. We have all kinds from across the religious spectrum. If your identity is wrapped in your religious beliefs, this probably isn't the place to find inspiration. I think most here don't particularly like religion masking politics, particularly when it's the hypocritical Republicans who use it for dividing our society and furthering their un-Chritian agenda. Someday, I hope all true Christians can figure this out.

Maybe there's a ChristianUnderground out there on the 'net.

[xray s]

10. Not disrespected

Just misunderstood. Which is understandable because a lot of what is identified today as "Christian" falls far short of Christ's teachings.

So, I take the opportunty to try to show people what my faith in Christ means, and hopefully that helps them understand it.

And a good challenge is healthy anyway. Someone once said the only path to faith is by facing all your doubts.

[Extend a Hand]

11. as a christian

I am angered by the actions of those "leaders" that loudly profess Christianity and then act in the most unchristian manner.

On this forum, the more thoughtful people do, as you just did, make a distinction between the extremist "christians" that are in power politically and the true Christian religion. I appreciate it when I see the distinction made.

However, given what you see on the news and in our government, when christians of all stripes are lumped in with the far-right-wing whackos in power I find it understandable and I feel sad rather than angry, offended, or disrespected.

[nemo137]

13. I'll admit to feeling honked off sometimes

By blanket statements and snarky "invisble friend" or "sheep" type comments. I mean, I make an effort to respect everyond regardless of belief or position on anything, and be as precise as possible in my criticisms, so it just feels like some people aren't making an effort to be accurate.

[OneBlueSky]

15. I have the greatest respect for true Christians . . .

trouble is, I have a hell of a time finding any, particularly among Republicans . . . most of whom are pseudo-Christians, or Christianoids, who talk the talk but don't walk the walk . . . they're about as far from Christianity as Bush is from reality . . .

[Tux]

23. Same here

I only know 2 Christians that aren't nuts. I love them to death but most Christians are messing up what Jesus said. More CHristians in my area are following and doing whatever a minister tells them. They voted against gay marriage since it'll destroy USA. They voted for Bush since Kerry would ban the Bible. Seems to me that Christianity is turning into a cult oriented around some ministers.

[T_i_B]

16. Yes, without doubt

and I imagine that Jews and even Muslims on occasion feel the same way on here.

There is bigotry on DU without doubt, and it usually expresses itself on religious subjects.

[lukasahero]

17. Absolutely

One specific I can offer is when, in a not specifically Christian related post, I mentioned that "these are the values I was raised to believe" and was immediately jumped on by a poster for not having thought these things through for myself. I didn't realize in posting my response that I not only a) had to prove that I had thought these things through for myself and came to the same values my parents raised me with but that b) the values I was espousing (that seeing the divine in all people was an impetus for me to remember we are all related and should be treated with kindness and care) was a particularly bad value to have.

[MemphisTiger]

20. I feel disrespeced sometimes because of my faith

usually it is along the lines of someone calling me a fundie. Basically lumping me into a group that they know nothing about. If this continues, many will flee the party to other parties. I think this issue will possibly split the party along religious lines. Maybe that is what Rove has been gunning for all along. It seems that many here tend to discount anything you say if you are a Christian. As far as you being a big fan of the Liberal Jesus, what about the Old Testament. I know you said you're not Christian, but you don't get to pick and choose parts of the Bible you like and don't like. Read the whole thing. It is quite complete. I don't think God cares who is elected, eventhough some on both sides want to think it is their candidate.

[feistykitty]

21. I don't disrespect liberal Christians here.

I can understand why some might feel disrespected. It's like a liberal American constantly hearing about the "bad Americans" from people who are not American on the internet.

I don't think that these people realize how much it bothers the good guys from both groups at times.

[MemphisTiger]

25. Here's an example of Christians being disrespected

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=14506&mesg_id=14507&page=

[Lydia Leftcoast]

22. Not "persecuted," but disrespected, yes

If people are atheists, that's fine with me. I believe that some people are born empiricists and others have received deep emotional wounds from allegedly religious people, but it wasn't DU Christians who did whatever it was to them.

When posters barge into discussions of religion or philosophy with taunts about "drinking the Kool-Aid" or "old man in the sky" or "leprechauns" (usually a propos of nothing in the discussion), they come off like freepers breaking into a discussion of leftist politics with taunts about "KKKlinton and Hitlery."

To top it off, some of the taunts are based on misinformation. I feel that if you're going to criciticize something, you should make sure that your criticism is based on good information. Sure, there are things to criticize within Christianity. But few if any of them are true of all varieties of Christianity.

I see a similar phenomenon in some of the astrology threads. I don't believe in astrology, but some posters have a compulsion to go into the astrologers' threads and hassle them. What's the point?

I've lurked in the Atheists' Group, and I've never seen any religious person breaking in to taunt them with pointless insults.

All I'm asking for is the same respect.

[Tux]

24. As a Buddhist

I, myself included, seen the liberal ones dumped into the fundie camp and then shot with bullets of hate. I can't stand the Bible, fundies, Christian TV, etc but they have a right to have those things as free speech.

However, Christians in general need to get over the fact that not everyone reads the Bible or believes Jesus was a god. If they drop that, accept that people can and do reject Christianity, everything would be a little better in the party. It's unite us and fight the fundies much more effectively.