"Hateful bigoted Catholic leaders refuse funeral to gay man because;

[donsu]

he ran two gay bars"

http://americablog.blogspot.com/2005/03/hateful-bigoted-catholic-leaders.html


There is surely a special place in hell for the leaders of the Catholic church.

A member of the Greater San Diego Business Association and owner of two gay bars has been denied a funeral at the University of San Diego and in any Catholic church or chapel in the Diocese of San Diego. John McCusker, 31, owner of Club Montage and ReBar, two local gay nightspots, died early March 13. McCusker suffered an apparent heart attack while at the Mammoth Mountain Ski Resort on vacation.

A 1996 graduate of USD, McCusker's family wanted to have the funeral service there, but was denied after church officials received information about him and his businesses.....

-snip-

A statement released earlier Thursday by Rodrigo Valdivia, chancellor for the Diocese of San Diego, explains the church's actions.

"The facts regarding the business activity of John McCusker were not known by church officials when arrangements were requested for his funeral. When these facts became known the bishop of San Diego concluded that to avoid public scandal Mr. McCusker can't be granted a funeral in a Catholic church or chapel in the Diocese of San Diego."

So what about McCusker would cause a public scandal?

"His business is adult entertainment, which is inconsistent with Catholic teaching" Valdivia said. "People would be scandalized that the church granted a funeral to a person who had this type of business activity."
-snip-
--------------------------


the Vatican is living in it's own garbage filled mausoleum

[NC_Nurse]

1. So much for forgiveness, mercy and

Christ's love. :eyes:

[FreedomAngel82]

42. And people

say that gay's aren't being descrminiated on. Uh huh. And I got a pot of gold here for ya. :eyes:

[Deja Q]

96. The Bible is a convoluted, incoherent mess. It allows

anyone to SELECTIVELY adhere to some parts (e.g. fags are bad and they shouldb be killed) while blissfully ignoring others (I've a huge honkin' list, take your pick, but I won't include the one that overtly states "THALT SHALT NOT KILL": )

Ecclesiasticus 13:3-8 (1)

Ecclesiasticus 13:16, 18-23 (1)

Ecclesiasticus 20:1

Ephesians 2:8-9

James 2:14-17

James 5:1-6 (paralleling today's economy)

1 Timothy 6:10

Proverbs 22:16

Deuteronomy 24:5
Mark 12:38-44

Matthew 5:44

Matthew 7:1

Matthew 25: 37-40

Matthew 25: 42-45

Luke 6:31

Luke 14:12-14

Luke 17:21

Revelation 3:17

Revelation 22:12

(1) The New Jerusalem Bible, Doubleday Publishing, 1989. This is the fun part about organized religion. So many people have translated the original texts in so many ways, no two versions are alike. Then there's the validity of the "original" text to consider...
Which reminds me: Michael Powell of the FCC wants to restore dignity in the media. While this is overall a good thing, why not look up Ezekiel 23: 1-27 and ask just how far back Mr. Powell should go. :-) Preferably from the New International Version, as the King James Version has some unintelligable censorship in that passage. Which is ironic, as some of the KJV's passages seem less fettered with a political agenda and speak of the truth (e.g. greed and unruly selfishness being the cause of a city's demise rather than a purported orgy)! And Genesis 19:31-36 is good for a chuckle too.

Oh, and for some passages that'll flip your world upside down, try these:
1 Samuel 18:1-4, 1 Samuel 1:26, and 2 Samuel 1:26.

[ScreamingMeemie]

2. Reason number 645 while you won't find me in the pews on Sunday

morning anymore.

[President Jesus]

3. well, just as I don't want the church imposing their rules on me...

...should we be imposing rules on them?

The guy apparently did not live his life as a Catholic, so they don't want him in their club. Whatever.

[DemBones DemBones]

6. A sane opinion. The Catholic Church rarely refuses

to give someone a Catholic funeral so the bishop of San Diego knows something about this man's business activities that we don't.

They're not refusing him a sacrament or saying he's gone to Hell, only refusing him a Catholic funeral.

The Catholic Church does teach that all sins can be forgiven and does not teach that any particular sin will send you to Hell. The Church specifically states in its Catechism that it is not known if anyone is in Hell at this time and that we hope for God to be merciful.

Believing in God's forgiveness and mercy, though, doesn't mean we have to give up our standards about how people should and should not behave.

[merh]

13. Well, in the South, the Catholic church has been known to deny

burial rites for those that committed suicide and to homosexuals. The funeral rites are for the living and not the dead (they are dead), so the refusal is a punishment to the family, that they were not able to have their loved one blessed by the church one more time. Fortunately, there are priests that bend the rules.

"Believing in God's forgiveness and mercy, though, doesn't mean we have to give up our standards about how people should and should not behave."

Who are you to decide the standards? Why can the church decide the standards. Jesus would not refuse his blessings or his company to the tax collectors, the members of society that were demonized and ostracized because of their behavior during his life time. Why do you condone the church taking this posture? It is definitely against the teachings of Christ. imho

[DemBones DemBones]

31. I'm in the South and gays and suicides have been buried through my

rather conservative parish. Individual priests can be more or less tolerant, obviously.

The 1994 Catechism says suicide is only a sin if committed when in your right mind and basically says no one is entirely in their right mind if they kill themselves. Obviously an arguable point but it allows for giving all suicides the benefit of the doubt, and a Catholic funeral. My priest was very helpful to me when my brother, who lived in another state, committed suicide.

Jesus did have standards. He was against the money-changers in the Temple, against the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, against adultery, etc. He befriended sinners but said sinners must change and sin no more, not that sin is OK. The Church has standards and attempts to follow what the Father as well as the Son taught through the Bible. I have my own standards as well, based on influences apart from the Church. You don't have to conform to any of those sets of standards but if you're seeking a Catholic funeral, or wedding, or baptism, a priest will expect you to conform to some Catholic standards.

I'm not sure the bishop is doing the right thing here but he's in San Diego and knows more about the nature of this man's business activities than any of us do.

If the bishop or a priest had refused to give the man the sacrament of Extreme Unction ("last rites") before he died, I'd be upset and on the phone to tell the bishop so.

[merh]

35. I suppose it depends on what one believes to be the teachings of Christ.

Jesus was about love, his life was the life of love. He did not tell the tax collectors to change their ways, he told us to love them despite their grievous behavior. When asked what was the greatest commandment, he said Love thy God with thy whole heart and thy whole soul, and second unto that is to love thy brother (neighbor) as thyself. God is love, love the act of loving, love unconditionally, love being loved. Love yourself and if you do, if you truly can love yourself and your God (love) then you cannot but help to love your neighbors, even those who live a life you do not agree with.

The rituals of the church are for the living. They give peace to those that love the departed. To deny the family of this gay man the Catholic mass is to harm the family and the living. The man is no longer with us to suffer from the "ruling" and "judgment" of this bishop.

Jesus came to fulfill the prophecies of the Bible, not teach the often twisted messages found in the old testament.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1: 9 ). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21 : 7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15 : 19-24 ). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

Do you know why ham is the traditional meal at Easter, because it reflects that the tenets of the old testament were no longer valid as the son of god has risen and his messages are supreme. (I come not to change the laws but to fulfill them.) In effect Jesus amended the laws of the old testament, by his example he made them simpler to understand and to live by. We are to live our lives as Christ, with love and forgiveness. When asked about adultery he did say it was a sin, but he did not condemn the sinner. Jesus' message in John was not adultery is a sin, but rather it was that we were not to judge others or condemn others for their sins.

According to the Gospel of John, the Pharisees, in an attempt to discredit Jesus, brought a woman charged with adultery before him. Then they reminded Jesus that adultery was punishable by stoning under Mosaic law and challenged him to judge the woman so that they might then accuse him of disobeying the law. Jesus thought for a moment and then replied, “He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her.” The people crowded around him were so touched by their own consciences that they departed. When Jesus found himself alone with the woman, he asked her who were her accusers. She replied, “No man, lord.” Jesus then said, “Neither do I condemn thee: go and sin no more.”

Yes, we are to try to live without sin but we are human and we are sinners. We are to live with love first and foremost and if we love, we will find it very hard to violate the commandments and to commit sins. The old joke that is told referencing this verse of John seems appropriate here.

When the Pharisees brought a woman charged with adultery before him and challenged him to judge the woman, Jesus thought for a moment and then replied, “He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her.” The people crowded around him were so touched by their own consciences that they departed. Then all of the sudden, out of the crowd a stone was sent flying through the air and hit the woman smack on the head, knocking her down. Jesus suddenly spun around, confused as to who from the crowd thought themselves without sin, as he turned back to the crowd he saw his mother reaching for another stone and shouted to her "Now mother, that is not funny!"

The New Testament mentions only two people born without sin, Jesus and his mother. The rest of us are sinners, including the pope and the priests that govern our churches and condemn us, in violation of the teachings of Christ.

Despite the policies of the Catholic Church, Jesus never said homosexuality was a sin. The interpretation of the old testament that purports to refer to it as a sin have been improperly translated and often quoted out of context. Bottom line is to love! A loving parish leader would have seen that the needs of the family far out weighed the "sins" of the deceased. imho

(references: New Testament at Biblegateway.com; Bartlet's and religioustolerance.org.)

[DemBones DemBones]

45. You're quite right that we are all sinners.

This bishop believes that this man's sins were such that to give him a Catholic funeral would create a scandal greater than to refuse him one.

This bishop may be wrong, as I said earlier, because I do agree about the importance of mercy. If anything, in my personal life I am too forgiving of those who do me harm. If the man has a family and they are Catholic, it might have been best to allow a private funeral Mass for the family, perhaps with a statement regretting the nature of the man's business dealings and expressing hope that he asked and received forgiveness from God in his last moments, while acknowledging the love that his family and friends had for him.

On the other hand, some church people today act as if nothing is a sin and I can't agree with that. Jesus told those about to stone the adulteress "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone" BUT he did tell the woman "taken in adultery" to "go and sin no more." He also chastised the Samaritan woman at the well for having lived with five men without being married to any of them. He tried to get away from excessive legalistic interpretations of Scripture but His teachings weren't feel good psychology of the "I'm OK, you're OK" sort, either.

It is possible to balance "we are all sinners" with a strong stand against sin and yet be merciful to sinners who repent. I believe that the Roman Catholic Church always tries to do that. That they sometimes fall short is proof that all are sinners, not that the teachings of the Church are wrong.

[merh]

49. I am really confused. Where do you find in this article anything to

suggest "This bishop believes that this man's sins were such that to give him a Catholic funeral would create a scandal greater than to refuse him one." What sins are those? What scandal? Did Jesus worry about a scandal when he refused to pick up the stone and throw it at the woman? No, fear of scandals should not be the deciding factor. Concern for and love of the living and those personally affected by the death and the refusal to conduct a Catholic mass and funeral should have overridden any concern the bishop may have had for a scandal!

The mercy would be for the family and loved ones of the deceased not for the deceased. If they did not want a Catholic funeral mass and burial, then this would not be an issue.

Yes, the messages of Jesus' live is a feel good message, love and you can do no harm. Love God, love yourself and love your neighbor and you cannot possibly violate the ten commandments. Sad that you have not been able to grasp the simplicity of that in all of your years. That you think you "in my personal life I am too forgiving of those who do me harm" is very sad, I doubt if that went through Jesus' mind on the cross. You can never be too forgiving or merciful or love too much, not if you are to follow the teachings of Christ.

The strict and hateful interpretations of the scripture that result in hurting humans is wrong, and the sinners that lead our church professing the love of Christ at the same time as they condemn those that are different or blatantly harm those that are suffering are violating the teachings of Christ. How many times am I to forgive my brother, 7 times 70. When the Roman soldiers struck the Lord, he turned the other cheek. Jesus' message is just that simple and to try to explain away the harm by saying the church has to has standards just won't work in my book.

[merh]

53. And see how preposterous it is to harm the living in a last minute

dash to judge or harm the dead.

A member of the Greater San Diego Business Association and owner of two gay bars has been denied a funeral at the University of San Diego and in any Catholic church or chapel in the Diocese of San Diego.

(snip)

A 1996 graduate of USD, McCusker's family wanted to have the funeral service there, but was denied after church officials received information about him and his businesses.

"The facts regarding the business activity of John McCusker were not known by church officials when arrangements were requested for his funeral. When these facts became known the bishop of San Diego concluded that to avoid public scandal Mr. McCusker can't be granted a funeral in a Catholic church or chapel in the Diocese of San Diego."

(snip)

"His business is adult entertainment, which is inconsistent with Catholic teaching" Valdivia said. "People would be scandalized that the church granted a funeral to a person who had this type of business activity."


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=312&e=2&u=/sddt/20050318/lo_sddt/dioceseofsandiegodeniescatholicfuneralritestobarow

Wasn't it a scandal that Jesus ate with the tax collectors and hung out with lepers? Where in the New Testament does it condone harming people because the requested action might cause a scandal? :shrug:

[Donailin]

108. NOPE

>>It is possible to balance "we are all sinners" with a strong stand against sin and yet be merciful to sinners who repent. <<

And here is where your error is. You are in no position to decide who is repentant. You cannot see into the mind of any other, and therefore were instructed forgive no matter what, not "if" someone is repentant.

What came first, the repentance of sin by man, or Christ?

[greymattermom]

95. just curious

Did Jesus amend Bereshit 1 also? Genesis creation story.

[CAG]

44. I know I'm a sinner, pretty sure you are too,

so maybe any minister should refuse to do our funeral services.

Yes Jesus had standards, since all of us sin thousands of times a day, I don't think that just because I am a heterosexual married person I'm in any better shape to say I'm so much better than a gay club owner.

[Donailin]

106. You say:

>>Jesus did have standards. He was against the money-changers in the Temple, against the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, against adultery, etc. He befriended sinners but said sinners must change and sin no more, not that sin is OK. <<

The way we change is through forgiveness, not condemnation. We are not called to judge, we are called to forgive.

>>The Church has standards and attempts to follow what the Father as well as the Son taught through the Bible. <<

"I desire Mercy, not sacrifice!"

>>I have my own standards as well, based on influences apart from the Church. You don't have to conform to any of those sets of standards but if you're seeking a Catholic funeral, or wedding, or baptism, a priest will expect you to conform to some Catholic standards.<<

And so you conform to the letter of the law?? You are perfect? You have removed the plank from your own eye and now you see clearly to remove the splinter from your brothers'? The only person who is able to see clearly is the One who had no sin, and He didn't condemn, he took the sins on his shoulders as if THEY WERE HIS OWN.

The standard you use for others will be the standard used for yourself. Think on it.

[Donailin]

104. Everyone falls short of the Glory of God.

Everyone is a sinner, and to say that the Church can grant one man a funeral and deny another man a funeral on the basis of his/hers known sins turns the whole of the Gospel on its head.
And that is based on the assumption that homosexuality is a sin, whichthe church teaches is NOT a sin. The church teaches that practicing homosexuality is a sin. So is infidelity. So a man who cheats on his wife and drops dead of a heart attack will get his catholic mass and funeral, but the man who owns a gay bar doesn't. A man who pays his tithe faithfully every week but denies his laborers fair wages will get his mass and funeral. The woman who gossips all day long about her neighbors but attends mass every week will get her mass and funeral.

Hypocrisy in the nth degree. This latests act of the Church is indefensible. Period. Christ has left the building, folks.

[atreides1]

11. "The guy apparently did not live his life as a Catholic"

Then I guess that this rule will apply when it comes to those American Catholics who have supported the war, and the death penalty,
both in violation of official church edict.

And let's ask the Bishop how many child molesting priests have been denied burial by the church?

[merh]

15. Damn good points! Thank you.

:thumbsup:

[Dorian Gray]

69. Pope John Paul is

against the Death Penalty, but it is not an official church dogma.

[Nobody]

111. Not to mention my entire family

They use birth control don'tcha know. And at least two of the men have had vasectomies.

[mitchtv]

12. obviously you weren't raised RC

You are always a Catholic, unless excommunicated

[Kingshakabobo]

14. No we shouldn't impose our rules on them.

I'll agree with that theory when they start applying those rules across the board.

"apparently did not live his life as a Catholic"

There are a thousand other rules that the "catholics" I know break on a regular basis. I don't know any catholic that follows all the teachings of the church. Do you?

You can dress this sow up and put make-up on it but it is still church sanctioned homophobia and gay bashing.

The catholic church is nothing but a corrupt money making corporation that needs to have it's tax exemption pulled.

[K-W]

18. No, apparently he did live his life as a catholic.

Or else why request a catholic funeral?

The issue is, his sins in life were high profile and related to gays. Unlike the sins of all the other catholics they bury.

[SmokingJacket]

20. That's fine! But they lose their moral superiority.

And better cross out all that stuff about forgiveness and love, etc., if they don't really believe it.

[Donailin]

102. "The Church"

We are the church, the body of Christ is not limited to the structure and heirarchy and it is not a CLUB. That implies exclusivity. Once again the Church gets it WRONG. Read the narrative of the Good Samaritan.

[Bill McBlueState]

117. funny

It's funny how on a progressive message board, the most vile, freeper-like, homophobic behavior you can imagine gets a pass when it comes from a supposed "holy" institution. Religion really does make people turn their brains off.

"Hey, they're a private club; they can do whatever they want." Sounds like what freepers say about the Boy Scouts.

If the Catholic church is going to benefit from millions of dolars in tax exemptions, it should be held to the same moral standards as the rest of society with regard to gay rights. I hate how churches get an exemption from moral behavior. They should be leading us, not lagging behind.

[DemocracyInaction]

4. Suppose that means they won't be burying too many of their priests

How many are gay???....and they are serving wine day after day after day........

[DemBones DemBones]

10. Many priests are gay but this isn't about being gay.

It isn't about owning a bar, either.

(It's offensive to say that offering Mass and Holy Communion is "serving wine" but I'm sure you meant it it to be.)

He's been refused a Catholic funeral because of his business activities, not because of his sexual orientation or because he owned bars. Gays and bar owners get Catholic funerals all the time.

[donco6]

21. Mafia members get Catholic funerals regularly.

No one seems to question their "business activities." Wonder why?

[DemBones DemBones]

33. Maybe they go to confession, make atonement, and are forgiven?

Maybe this man didn't confess and atone for the sins in his life?

The option to confess and atone is available to all Catholics. Some undoubtedly abuse the sacrament but that fact doesn't mean no one can be held responsible for his/her sins.

Lots of people cheat on their taxes and only a few are caught, but it's illogical to argue that the IRS shouldn't penalize those who are caught because others are getting away with it.

[donco6]

55. That's stupid.

Sorry, but you're saying that as long as someone goes through a ritual of confession prior to death, then everything's OK, but if someone doesn't they're screwed. So if the Mafia don who regularly has poor slobs whacked because they didn't pay back their usurious loan goes to confession and dies, he's OK. But the poor slob who has to work three jobs to pay back his loan gets hit by a bus and dies, he doesn't get a Catholic funeral?

Idiotic. And one more reason to rejoice that I dumped that religion many years ago.

[RevCheesehead]

74. Unction is not "some ritual." It is a sacrament.

Please do not belittle the sacraments of the church. It is offensive to call the sacraments "stupid" and "idiotic."

My understanding of RC doctrine is that the rite of unction is one where the person is given a chance to confess and repent of their sins. That may be meaningless to some, but we church-folk take that very seriously.

Apparently, the Catholic Church is not for you. I commend your leaving, but would ask, as a courtesy to others, that a little sensitivity to Catholic and Christian practices be observed.

[donco6]

98. What's REALLY offensive . . .

. . . is the tendency for people to wrap the RC church in this facade of "righteousness" when it's obvious they are as discriminatory and evil as any non-religious group. We've been pointing out clearly the inconsistent manner in which the RCs have treated thuggish, brutal, lethal crime bosses versus gay nightclub owners - state of "unction" or no. And yet, for some reason, the RCs get to wrap this cloak around themselves that says, "yes, we know we're immorally discriminatory, but we're the RC Church, therefore we are de facto "good.""

I'm just calling baloney, baloney. They are not good. Not in any way. And if the group itself is evil, their "sacraments" mean nothing. You might as well be slaughtering pigs in the Holy of Holies.

[Bill McBlueState]

118. good call

That's what I was trying to say in response to another post. I'm not sure why on a progressive message board, a church gets a pass on the same behavior that would bring any other right-wing institution a load of flames.

[donco6]

124. I still can't figure it out.

And it's only the RC church that gets the free ride. Don't know why.

[RevCheesehead]

137. Not according to church teaching.

St. Augustine dealt with this question in the 3rd century. The question was "are the sacraments efficacious if they are done by a (heretical) priest?" His answer: The sacraments are a gift from God, and their efficacy is not dependent upon the "goodness" of the priest. A sacrament is a God-initiated, God-given act, through which grace is bestowed upon the recepient. The priest is merely the conduit through which the sacrament passes.

(for you theology fans, that's the "ex opera operatis" - or however you spell it...)

Therefore, if the group is evil, the sacraments themselves remain pure and incorrupted. That's real grace in action.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

94. Have you read the catacism?

That's a cornerstone of our faith...Confession. If you die with sin, you'll probably go to purgatory. And I seriously doubt this guy was denied a catholic burial for something as simple as what you're saying. DemBones is right. GAys and Bar Owners get Catholic Funerals all the time. You don't know the ENTIRE story of why he was denied a Catholic Funeral. I'm sure there were other things involved that the Bishop doesn't have to share with the public.
Anything to jump on the Anti Catholic Bandwagon here at DU. The Catholic Church is as flawed as any other denomination or religion. There is nothing special about them except for the fact that they get more publicity when they screw up. Because it's organized and ran by human beings. We're flawed. People make mistakes. Get over it.
Duckie

[donco6]

99. Sorry, not good enough.

I once was Catholic - went to parochial school - so yes I've read the "catacism" (sic).

Here's the facts:

A statement released earlier Thursday by Rodrigo Valdivia, chancellor for the diocese of San Diego, explains the church's actions. "The facts regarding the business activity of John McCusker were not known by church officials when arrangements were requested for his funeral. When these facts became known, the bishop of San Diego concluded that to avoid public scandal Mr. McCusker can't be granted a funeral in a Catholic church or chapel in the diocese of San Diego."

http://www.advocate.com/new_news.asp?ID=15468&sd=03/19/05-03/21/05

So, yes, quite clearly from the RC Church's mouth, the guy was denied a Catholic burial because he owned a gay bar. As was pointed out earlier, this is inconsistent with the treatment accorded to other "unsavory" elements of society that HAVE been allowed Catholic funerals on a regular basis (see previous posts).

Now, if this had been some obvious freeper organization or Protestant church denomination, the kid gloves would be off and the organization would be soundly and rightfully denounced. But because it's the RC Church, for some reason, we're not allowed to treat them the same way. "The Catholic Church is flawed," you say. "People make mistakes. Get over it."

In other words, the RC Church can do whatever it damn well pleases, and I'm not supposed to be allowed to call them out on it. Well, I am. They are evil and unbecoming of any true follower of God.

[Donailin]

109. total nonsense.

I'm a cradle Catholic, raised my children Catholic and I've studied Catholicism for years. I posess the catechism, three Catholic bibles, numerous enccyclicles, book son the saints, books on doctrine, the didache, books written by catholic scholars and so on. I read the Catholic bible all the time. It is precisely the reason why I have a total right -- no -- OBLIGATION to speak out when my church errs. And she errs all the time anymore in the matters of faith and justice and mercy.

Pedophile priests were sheltered, forgiven, and placed in situations where they can be abusive time and again.

The church gave the nototious pedophile John Geoghan a Catholic funeral. They strain gnats and swallow camels. Period.

[donco6]

126. Zing!

Great post.

[BuddhaGirl]

127. great post!

recovering catholic here....thankful I left and never looked back.

The hypocrisy of the catholic church is deplorable.

[ultraist]

62. "cheat on their taxes?" Is that the only crime they commit?

Please. The Catholic church is burying child rapists and murderers but wont bury this guy because he owned a club?

What hypocrisy and a huge deviation from Jesus' teachings.

[merh]

56. Read the article again.

And the Diocese press release. He was denied it because he owned 2 gay bars and they were afraid of a SCANDAL! If he only owned one, do you think he would have been allowed the funeral his family requested?

[ultraist]

63. Offensive? Communion is an empty ritual

Not everyone is Catholic or believes in mysticism and rituals.

[Bill McBlueState]

120. empty ritual

Oh, but it's not wine. It's actually blood.

It's much less offensive, you see, to drink blood than wine.

[hiley]

5. Full of hypocrites

Didn't the Pope write in his new book Gay=Evil or something to that affect ?
The Catholic Church officials are outrageous in my opinion.
("His business is adult entertainment, which is inconsistent with Catholic teaching" Valdivia said.)
(No, his business is running two simple bars. I looked the bars up on the Web, have read numerous reviews of them, and guess what - they're apparently just bars. And the second bar, Re:Bar, according to one review, USED to be a dank dark leather club and this guy revamped it to make it modern and hip. If anything, the church should be praising him.)..from the blog..

This man deserves respect and sorry but I think (fuck
Rodrigo Valdivia, chancellor for the Diocese of San Diego.)
Thanks for the link to the story, too.
Hey,since when do Catholic's not drink alcohol?
____________________________________________________________________

Below has to do with the Catholic Church ( not a Gay issue )
but also important in dealing with the hypocrisy of the Religious Intuition.
http://www.voicesofoutrage.com/RICO-campaign.html

The RICO Campaign for
Survivor Justice Petition
Because justice for sexual abuse survivors of Roman Catholic priests and bishops will not come from within the Roman Catholic Church, The RICO Campaign for Survivor Justice Petition is underway.

This is MichiganVote's thread below:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3290686

http://rantsbyhiley.blogspot.com/

[saltpoint]

7. Can't support the Church's snotty attitude here but also --

-- feel that the conservative and evangelical Protestant churches have been equally heartless and hypocritical.

I'd like to wake up one of these days and learn that the damn Bible is no longer being used to oppress human beings, whether by Catholics, Protestants, or you-name-it.

[hiley]

9. Bravo !

:yourock:



http://rantsbyhiley.blogspot.com/

[MissWaverly]

8. how is that religion turns to hate

I was raised Catholic and I remember that when my mother died, (really bummer prolonged suffering in intensive care unit), the priest didn't want to hold a funeral because she was not a regular
church attender. I said that she had been sick for years and did not go out much, he then said, well she should have called, maybe she was too sick to call. The last thing a bereaved family needs is a fight about the funeral. Whatever happened to the whatever you do to the least of my brothers, you do unto me theory.

[DemBones DemBones]

16. I'm very sorry that happened to you but you know

Catholics have an obligation to attend Mass regularly, or to receive the sacraments at home if they're unable to get out to church, so you know why he asked. Some priests are hard-nosed and that's unfortunate.

I'm not able to attend Mass very often due to my disabilities so I can empathize with your mother not being able to attend and not feeling like calling, either. I also hate to make work for someone to bring me the sacraments, keep thinking I'll get better and start attending regularly again. Perhaps your mom thought the same way.

But I also understand the priest not wanting to do a funeral for someone who perhaps no longer considered herself a believer. They have to deal with a lot of people who want the Church only for weddings, baptisms, and funerals, people who don't really believe or become involved in the church community.

Priests should always be merciful and kind, but they are only men.

[Hans Delbrook]

22. I had a priest in high school who used to say

That too many "catholics" are only interested in the Church when "they're hatched, matched and dispatched."

For the life of me I can't figure out why people who spend their whole saying that church is a bore, or stupid, or useless, suddenly want a religious wedding, funeral, or to get their kids baptized. I suspect to them it's just a show.

The Church can't win - when "bad" people like mafia members are given Catholic funerals - the Church is called hypocritical and when they refuse funerals to those who did not live a Catholic life (which is VERY different from breaking some of the rules) they're called heartless.

I have had many problems over the years with ignorant or ill-tempered priests but I don't blame the whole Church.

[MissWaverly]

24. my mother is in heaven

You know while she was dying, she got this look on her face like she could see thru the wall, and then her face looked like she recognized somebody that came in the room, she had this look of total happiness and she was gone. She lived a life of service, 26 years as a health care aide at the local hospital. She was a good person and a hard worker. The problem is that it's always the little guy vs the system. I really don't believe that my mother realized how sick she was, she put up a big front for us kids until the end. There was a stack of her social security checks which she had just put in a box, I think that she just put things off. But remember, Jesus was always kind to people, even the most blatant sinner, he gave them a hand. I think that giving someone the benefit of a doubt is the kindest thing. My mother was also an adopted child and I believe that she was molested as a kid. If ever someone deserved mercy, it was her. (She was born in the 20s, and in our area of the country, children were adopted at that time to do work, they were seen as indentured servants, not family).

[Maru Kitteh]

29. My mom was also orphaned and then rented out as a servant

You could have been describing my mom. You are right. Unless a person has been excommunicated the RCC should give them a funeral; that or they should just dump the whole charade of mercy and kindness. If they don't have enough priests to go around then they should re-open the priesthood to marriage and ordain women.

[MissWaverly]

34. hope your mother found peace

why is it so hard to give out the smallest crumb of kindness to everyday people. You are so right, everyone should have the right to funerals.

[DemBones DemBones]

36. I'm sure she is. She sounds like a wonderful woman

and I'll bet she thought it was too much trouble to ask someone to bring her Holy Communion, especially if she didn't realize she was so sick. Also, given that she was born in the twenties, she may not have been willing to take Communion from anyone but a priest.

Before my illness, I was active as a Eucharistic minister, a ministry I agreed to accept only because I wanted to be able to take Communion to the sick. I found, though, that many older people will not accept the sacrament from a lay minister, even though the host has been consecrated by a priest and the Eucharistic minister is merely bringing it to them. Of course their feelings are understandable, many people don't like all the changes of Vatican II and that doesn't mean they are necessarily right-wing.

Again, I'm really sorry that the priest wasn't kinder to you. I thank God that you had the blessing of seeing your mother's happiness as death approached. That must have been a comfort when you dealt with the difficult priest and the rest of the aftermath of death. The priest didn't show her the mercy she deserved, but I'm sure God has.

[MissWaverly]

54. thanks for kind words

yes, I think that it is all too easy to go into a state of denial when we're sick especially old people who are afraid of losing their independence. Yes, my mother was definitely old school, definitely a democrat to the end. She spotted Spiro Agnew as a crook long before anyone else.

[MichiganVote]

59. Will she be a better believer delivered to heaven by a Protestant?

You make excuses to priests or men like that and you may as well throw in the rest of the vestments. Its exactly that kind of mentality that has gotten this church in the trouble its in nowadays. How do you know why she stopped attending and what's the difference anyway? The woman was baptized, paid her money and sacrificed time and effort for that church regardless of the time spent apart from it due to illness. Why are you so quick to criticize her for not attending in lieu that stupid priest calling her up?

[Nobody]

113. According to my religion teacher in my catholic HS

It's a mortal sin to fail to attend Mass every Sunday and the holy days of obligation. You don't go to Mass you're bound for hell.

Which is why I raised my hand and asked this question. The answer to the question was one of the many reasons I left the church.

I asked: Supposing there were two people. One was a serial killer who never missed a mass, and went out and killed over a hundred people and never got caught. And the second spent a lot of time volunteering at homeless shelters, serving meals on wheels, bringing turkeys on Thanksgiving to poverty-stricken families, helping stranded motorists, and several other acts of charity but missed going to church mainly because of doing these acts of charity. Who's going to heaven?

The answer from my religion teacher was: The serial killer is going to heaven and the charitable volunteer is going to hell. And god does too take attendance.

Based on that answer, at the time I asked the question, my ticket on the hellbound express was already in my pocket.

The problem I have (and it's not just Catholicism, it's every organized religion- no one gets a pass here) is that they're so bound up in rules that they forget that the original purpose was to treat people respectfully and to live and let live.

[BushBash]

125. I agree with you Nobody

I survived Catholic school. I remember in grade school a priest saying that if you change your religion....you go to hell.

A girl in my class said:

"My mom used to be baptist, but became a Catholic when she married
my dad....does that mean she's going to hell?"

and he answered...."yes. Your mother is going to hell"


Sick bastard....we were in the 7th grade! Now I spend my
Sundays going out for brunch and bloggin!

[Kingshakabobo]

17. Some of the meanest people I knew when I was a child were

Catholic priests, nuns and "church ladies". Now, as I get older, I realize they were all about corruption, power and feeling superior to their neighbors.

edit:punctuation

[merh]

25. I am sorry you had to experience that. My experiences were very

similar.

My parents were strict Catholics that brought all 9 of us up in the Church. We all attended Catholic elementary school and one brother studied at a private catholic high school and college (can you image those tuition costs!).

My mother was the first to welcome the Sisters of Charity to the new convent that had been built for our parish. The sisters were new in the states, having come over from Ireland. I remember to this day riding in a red wagon loaded down with my baby sister and baked goods as she walked to the convent to welcome the nuns.

My father was an usher in church and both were very active in the parish. Well one day my mother was diagnosed with a brain tumor. At about the same time, our parish was assigned a monsignor that had once been assigned to the cathedral parish in our diocese. It seems he had been caught fornicating with some of his lady parishioners and his punishment was to be sent to our little parish (after "counseling" of course). This new leader of our parish envisioned building our parish to what his cathedral parish was. His sermons were based on increased monetary donations to the church and were much more material than they were spiritual.

Despite her tumor and the treatments for her tumor, my mother insisted on attending church. First it was in scarves to hide the hair loss, then on a walker and then in a wheelchair, the tumor having continued its growth and cancer having been found in her bones (neck and back). The holy leader of the parish never once came to her after mass to pray for or with her. He never inquired about the woman that came to mass despite her failing physical condition, surrounded by her children. Eventually, over her 10 months of suffering, she could no longer attend church. I had to go to the convent and beg the nuns to have someone come to the house to give her the eucharist and blessings. The associate pastor came out once and after that, they never came out. It was the priest at the hospital that gave her last rites, not our parish priests.

When she died, we wrote her obituary to reflect her 20 plus years of involvement in the parish. The nuns also informed that great spiritual leader of our parish of her contributions and the man actually showed up at her wake to recite the rosary. (What gall, I almost threw him out and I would have if it had not been for my father asking me not to make a scene.) If it had not been for the nuns preparation of the monsignor, he would not have had anything to say about my mother's devotion to the church.

Apparently, this poor gay man did not contribute enough to the parish. The majority of the leaders of the Catholic Church in the USofA have sold us out for the 30 pieces of silver. The weed's "tort reform" will protect their rich little diocese from the money hungry victims of the pedophile priests and faith based initiatives will allow them to continue to build their golden calves and temples that reflect their own greatness. (imho)

[MissWaverly]

27. God has welcomed her in heaven

That's what I am trying to say, death and illness should not be the
basis for some sort of power struggle. You mother was a saint, a genuine saint, the biggest problem with the world today is that there are too many selfish winner take alls and not enough people like our mothers. Winner take all is more like loser take all.

[merh]

39. I agree with you wholeheartedly. The winner take all position

is just an example of those that fail to live by the message of Christ and that is to love, love unconditionally, love the act of loving, love ourselves and our neighbors.

You post above the look that your mother had in her eyes during her last hours. My mother had that same look. During the last days of her illness she was unconscious, then in the last hours, she opened her eyes and the gaze she had gave me peace. Her eyes were like the eyes of Jesus in the paintings of him in the Garden of Gethsemane, a type of gaze that was peaceful yet full of hope, as if she was looking into the face of God. I was able to leave her side after that and my sister and father stayed with her until she died a few hours later. When the phone rang, I knew she had left us to join God.

Yes, our mothers are saints in heaven, at peace with the Lord. :hug:

[Donailin]

112. This sentence

>>Apparently, this poor gay man did not contribute enough to the parish. <<

illustrates how the Chruch gets it wrong. Christ came for the sinners, not the righteous. The priests, who are Christ "in persona" are supposed to conduct themselves accordingly.

[OldHistoryBuff]

52. Sorry about what happened

I have a family member who was a strong catholic all his life. Towards the end he wasn't very active in the church and we had the same problem. On top of that his death was a suicide. Very large eye opener on how the catholic church works.

This also happened in San Diego.

[MissWaverly]

61. Hope there has been healing

What many don't realize is that some people just feel cut off for whatever reason and can't cope, your family member might have felt that he had become a "burden" not only to himself but to his family as well. Christ, always gave, even at the wedding, when he gave wine to the people there. They were average folks just having fun, and he gave them a break when they ran out of wine. So when we die, I don't think God is there with an itemized list of our transgressions. For the good there is mercy, for the evil there is justice.

[OldHistoryBuff]

64. Thanks!

Thanks

[MichiganVote]

58. That's disgusting. I would have shown him the door

[NNN0LHI]

19. But mass murdering baby killers get their Catholic last rites. How nice

http://edition.cnn.com/2001/LAW/06/11/mcveigh.candiotti.otsc/

Susan Candiotti: McVeigh changed mind and was given last rites

<snip>Prison Warden Harley Lappin offered Tim a Catholic priest. According to McVeigh's lawyer Robert Nigh, Tim said he would consider it.

Nigh said after a 15-minute final meeting with his client during which they discussed whether McVeigh, a self-described agnostic, would see a priest and receive the final sacraments of the Catholic faith, McVeigh agreed.

Strapped to a gurney, McVeigh asked to see a priest.

The Bureau of Prisons says McVeigh received the sacrament called the Anointing of the Sick by an unidentified prison chaplain.

That sacrament includes a confession and absolution of sins.

[Hans Delbrook]

23. If he confessed and expressed regret for his sins

Then yes , he deserved last rites. To do otherwise would violate the Church's position that anyone can repent at any time before death and be forgiven.

Even Judas could have been forgiven - his great sin was that he despaired of God's forgiveness and killed himself.

[NNN0LHI]

26. Then off to "heaven" he goes

Perhaps you and he can have some iced tea together in your afterlives while discussing his feelings concerning the children he killed whom he described as being collateral damage some day? Cheers.

Don

[MissWaverly]

28. Don don't get upset/you forget purgatory

One of the Catholic things which I still believe in is purgatory
that's sort of like hell only it's time limited.

[Hans Delbrook]

43. I never said he goes off to heaven or to hell for that matter

That's not for me to judge, a priest to judge or even, surprisingly enough, you. That's for God to judge.

[merh]

46. And see, I have always been of the impression that Judas repented

for his sins and was forgiven. He did not despair of God's forgiveness, he knew he would never find the forgiveness of man. :shrug:

[Hans Delbrook]

47. I don't believe anyone knows if he repented or not

How would we? His action indicated his absolute despair.

[merh]

50. Sorry, your post seemed emphatic that he had not!

I was just giving you my impression. It is my belief that his love of Jesus and his teachings won out in the end. His despair was not with the message, but with his failings and his fear in facing the others that he had harmed.

Guess it is just my feeble attempt to use empathy as opposed to condemnation and judgment.

[Hans Delbrook]

51. If he regretted what he did even with his last breath

Then yes, he was forgiven. I guess I hope he did (since I really in my heart wish hell on no one - no matter how often I say otherwise) but I do not know.

I hope you're right.

[Joe Chi Minh]

132. No. when Christ said that

Judas had "gone to the place prepared for him", the context and his tone indicated unambiguously, it seems to me, that Christ's words were spoken with great bitterness; a feeling, understandably expressed by him on many occasions during his ministry (notably towards the Scribes, Pharisees, etc), since he knew the people concerned rejected the forgiveness he had bought for them, even at the price of his own hideous crucifixion. It would scarcely have been possible for Christ to have suffered more, to save our souls. He spoke of their corrigible malice towards him, because of the truth he spoke concerning them, as the unforgivable sin - because it is an eternal sin. He told them they could blaspheme against him and be forgiven, but there could be no forgiveness for them, if they blasphemed against the Holy Spirit, i.e. the spirit of truth.

Imagine what sort of a heart Judas had. Here was a man who for, at least three years, had seen at close hand (none closer), Christ's total self-giving, weariness, blood, sweat and tears, even substantiating his authority with astonishing miracles.

And for what? For money! But Christ always leaves room for doubt for those who are only impressed by power and fear it, but have no room for love in their heart.

[DemBones DemBones]

40. Don, this man in San Diego was NOT denied

the sacrament of "last rites."

He's only been denied a Catholic funeral, which is not a sacrament.

Further, the bishop is not saying the man is in Hell, nor does anyone claim that Timothy McVeigh is in Heaven because he confessed and received absolution before his execution.

The bishop may be wrong to deny this man a Catholic funeral but no one is automatically entitled to a Catholic funeral, either.

As I've said before, the time to be upset is if someone is denied last rites.

[NNN0LHI]

66. Alright. I will take your word on that. Perhaps you can answer why...

...my daughter who was not pregnant but was still denied the sacrament of marriage in a Catholic church in 2001 due to non attendance of mass. But yet I can remember attending my brother and his very pregnant girlfriends wedding in a Catholic church even though they had never been in a church together before that day?

And just to add a little background to this story my daughter is still happily married. My brother was divorced soon after having two kids with wife due to problems that arose after a year or two of swapping sexual partners with some friends of theirs.

Something strike you as being a little funny with an arbitrary system like that? Not the kind of funny that makes you laugh either. Just...funny. Well at least gay people can't get married either I guess.

Don

[spanone]

30. I was raised catholic, between their priests kidfucking and this....

I would no longer raise my children catholics as I would satanists.

[donsu]

32. let's not forget the string tied around the necks of cardinals, bishops,

and the other end of the string tied to the Pope's toe.

US catholic leaders don't operate in a vacuum.

[davidthegnome]

41. Some of you

Should re-examine the word "bigot". I feel bad for this man who is a homosexual. I am a Catholic, and I disagree with the decision that was made. But I AM a Catholic. And yes, I support the church. Despite it's faults, it still does much good in the world. Constructive criticism is one thing - hatred and intolerance quite another.

[RevCheesehead]

76. Amen.

C'mon folks - if you disagree with the Catholic church, say so. But please stop the Catholic-bashing. It's demeaning of DU and all of us.

[Mr_Spock]

37. Please don't refer to them as Catholic or Christian.

They are anything but. I have always called people like this ass-holes - doesn't matter who the fuck they THINK they are.

[Warren DeMontague]

38. Wow. More stinging moral authority on the subject of sexuality

From the organization that brought you institutionalized Priest child-rape.

[davidthegnome]

48. The way to combat intolerance...

Is by NOT being intolerant, or bigotted yourself. But yeah, ok, I get it. "All catholics are evil satan worshipping bastards, blah blah blah. You all molest children. Blah blah." You will NOT gain any sympathy for our cause in this manner. The oppressed are becoming the oppressors eh? Well now, isn't that just frickin fantastic.

If you want to pour a bucket of water into an ocean, by all means, go for it. But it's not going to combat the problem.

But then what do I know? I'm just one of those evil Catholic bastards. Pah. Hell with this thread.

[merh]

57. Yeah, and I can tell by reading your post that you are so tolerant!

No one said all Catholics are evil bastards. Most who have posted here are outraged at the insensitivity of the bishop that refused the funeral. The policies of the church, btw, are very intolerant of those that are different or those that don't fit into their mold.

Don't deny my loved one the blessings of the church because they are sinners. That is when they need the church's blessings the most!

[davidthegnome]

60. It is not the Catholic Church as a whole

That is guilty for this. It is certain people within it. Most Catholics are decent, hard-working people, who raise their children, pay their bills, and go to church on sunday. And those ridiculous generalizations are only making the problem worse. Trust me, the neocons (I.E. FREEPERS) are watching this. And they can use all of these little quotes to convince people that liberals hate christianity. And people will believe it when they see threads like this.

When I think people are being stupid, I try to point it out. And yes, the fact that I am a Catholic makes me biased. However, imagine how you people would feel if someone made a statement such as "Islam - the organization that institutionalized child-rape". Or some other such idiotic nonsense.

It all comes down to an idealogical war, doesn't it? The oppressed want to oppress their oppressors. And if this is the message that we continue to give off, we will not make the progress we wish for. But, ignore the words of that evil Catholic bigot behind the curtain. Let's all bash christianity and sing kombaya.

[merh]

68. As I have pointed out, the majority of the posters are angry at the

bishops decision and are chastising him for his lack of Christianity. Though I am of the opinion that the catholic church, like any other established religion that has declared homosexuality a sin and an abomination is guilty of hypocrisy and is teaching principles that run afoul of the teachings of Christ. If you cannot understand that, go back and read the new testament. You will not find any reference to homosexuality as a sin and you cannot find it anywhere in the ten commandments.

I will never shy away from challenging the religious and religions from following Jesus' message and not just their weak and harmful interpretation of the message. I could care less what the neocons or freepers think of my writings, so let them read them. Maybe they will learn something. Maybe a light buld will go off and they will recognize that there isn't a thing in the new testament that states that homosexuality is a sin. Conversely, Jesus taught that we are to love our brother/neighbor as ourselves. You cannot be following his teachings if you hate, ridicule or reject homosexuals.

As for your comments "But, ignore the words of that evil Catholic bigot behind the curtain. Let's all bash christianity and sing kombaya." I haven't a clue what you mean.

And its "Kum by ya".

We crazy liberals can be spiritual and even follow the teachings of Christ but can still have a problem with the established religions distortion of the teachings and the message.

[Warren DeMontague]

75. What he means is

that liberals like to "Bash Christianity and sing Kombaya"...


you know, standard AM radio right-wing bile bullshit.

[merh]

82. Oh, you mean like us crazy liberals that oppose the war and

the weed-n-chief can't be patriotic and hate ameriku because we voice our concerns and think the war is illegal and immoral?

So, if I view the practices of the catholic church and other established churches as going against the teachings of Christ, then I am bashing christianity? Uhhmmm, is christianity supposed to be about the teachings of Christ?

[Warren DeMontague]

84. Exactly. And Yes, but you wouldn't know it these days.

It's funny, some of the most "Christian" people I know in terms of how they treat their fellow man, are secular humanists, atheists, pagans and other non-aligned folk. (And, yes, some do consider themselves Christians, too)

And ironically, the people in Merkin political life who most loudly and self-righteously proclaim Their "Christianity"... on the street corners and from the rooftops... seem to be the folks advancing the worst forms of kick-the-little-guy, greed is good, social darwinism and nihilistic will to power.

Go fuckin' figure, huh?

[Warren DeMontague]

71. Are "all Catholics" synomyous with the Catholic Church Heirarchy?

Because if you re-read my post, you will notice the word "organization" in there.

Seems to me, most of the Catholics I know use birth control. The Catholic Church (tm) is opposed to it in almost all it's forms.

I never said anything about "all Catholics", however if you think the Catholic Church hasn't been culpable in moving around child molesters and generally protecting them and covering up for them, you're high. Any other organization, from model rocket enthusiasts to the Rotary Club, that did such an effective job of helping molesters avoid prosecution and meanwhile maintain ready access to kids would be run out of town on a fucking rail... by a torch-wielding mob.

And the institution's blatant hypocrisy with regards to this and other issues just makes its attempts to mandate the sexual mores of consenting adults all the more laughable. That was the point of my post.

I'm sorry you're one of those people who can't seem to distinguish between criticism of your church and criticism of you, or your belief system.

[ultraist]

89. We should tolerate bigotry and homophobia?

I don't think so. It's WRONG for the church to abuse their tax exempt status to push their bible cloaked hate agenda.

[bklyncowgirl]

65. There's a big church in an Italian neighborgood in Brooklyn...

It has a very lovely mural of the Virgin Mary surrounded by a whole bunch of saints and angel. Down in the corner of the mural is a picture of a short, squat man in a black suit.

I went there to help chaperone my mother's girlscouts on a visit. In the course of the tour the pastor proudly showed us the mural. Naturally, one of the kids piped up with "Who's the guy in the suit with Saint Francis." The priest, embarrassed, quickly changed the subject and got everyone out of there.

As it turned out the guy in the suit was a local mafioso who had made it big in smuggling booze during prohibition, gambling and protitution. He had also donated a boatload of money to the church. This guy was certainly in the adult entertainment business too and I'm sure that the church did not approve of his activities either but I'm sure he received a very nice funeral indeed.

I believe that they explained this sort of thing by saying that a sinner can repent up to the last moment of his or her life. How do we know they're sincere. We won't. God will. They should take the same attitude to the owner of those gay bars.

[MissWaverly]

67. loved your story

what I think is what is being expressed here is that people are judged by what they make of their lives.

[sakabatou]

70. Asshole w/ rhetorical question

Wonder what would heppen if the role was reversed?

[davidthegnome]

72. You fail to understand

That my views are extremely liberal as well.

But, to respond.

<<bishops decision and are chastising him for his lack of Christianity. Though I am of the opinion that the catholic church, like any other established religion that has declared homosexuality a sin and an abomination is guilty of hypocrisy and is teaching principles that run afoul of the teachings of Christ. If you cannot understand that, go back and read the new testament. You will not find any reference to homosexuality as a sin and you cannot find it anywhere in the ten commandments. >>

The Catholic church has not as itself declared homosexuality evil, but certain Catholics in particular HAVE. The church is made up of ALL of it's members. Those people in particular are misguided and ignorant - and hating them will not push our purpose forward. Nor will making severe deeply insulting comments. There are other ways to piss people off, if that's what you want to do. You do it by telling the truth.

<<I will never shy away from challenging the religious and religions from following Jesus' message and not just their weak and harmful interpretation of the message. I could care less what the neocons or freepers think of my writings, so let them read them. Maybe they will learn something. Maybe a light buld will go off and they will recognize that there isn't a thing in the new testament that states that homosexuality is a sin. Conversely, Jesus taught that we are to love our brother/neighbor as ourselves. You cannot be following his teachings if you hate, ridicule or reject homosexuals. >>

I thought I had made it clear that I do not hate, ridicule, or reject homosexuals. Nor does the Catholic church as a whole. Those generalizations are ridiculous.

<<As for your comments "But, ignore the words of that evil Catholic bigot behind the curtain. Let's all bash christianity and sing kombaya." I haven't a clue what you mean.

And its "Kum by ya".>>

Hmm. Good point, my grandfather (the old English teacher) would be turning in his grave.

<<We crazy liberals can be spiritual and even follow the teachings of Christ but can still have a problem with the established religions distortion of the teachings and the message. >>

I agree absolutely. But you aren't very liberal, or very spiritual, if you spout hatred for other people. No matter WHO they are. And that's what I'm trying to point out to you all. But I don't think you understand. I don't dislike any of you, but you did piss me off a bit, so I'm trying to point out why. And I'm trying to point out why you will piss off others in the future with this sort of language.

But perhaps I made the mistake of (unintentionally) pissing you off to get the point across. So I apologize. I'll try to word my posts a bit more constructively in the future.

[Cuban_Liberal]

73. Actually, that wasn't the reason, not that anyone here cares.

The reason he was denied funeral in the church itself was NOT because he ran gay bars, but because at least one of those bars was 'adult-oriented' (strippers, etc.). He was not denied burial in sanctified ground, nor did the diocese forbid a priest to conduct his funeral-- he was just not allowed to have it in the church itself.

:eyes:

[davidthegnome]

77. I see.

<<I never said anything about "all Catholics", however if you think the Catholic Church hasn't been culpable in moving around child molesters and generally protecting them and covering up for them, you're high. Any other organization, from model rocket enthusiasts to the Rotary Club, that did such an effective job of helping molesters avoid prosecution and meanwhile maintain ready access to kids would be run out of town on a fucking rail... by a torch-wielding mob. >>

The Catholic Church? You're referring to a number of people who are *involved* with the Catholic church, not to the church itself as a whole. Because the church makes up our every church in every community we are a part of it.

We don't always have to agree about what individuals within the church believe, however. But I'll stand up for my church when I feel it is my duty, and right now I do.

If I were to insult your idealogy, you would likely respond the same way.

[Cuban_Liberal]

78. Who are you replying to?

Not my post, certainly.

:wtf:

[davidthegnome]

80. Haha

<<you know, standard AM radio right-wing bile bullshit.>>

Oh, right, that's a quick way to run a smear campeign, start telling everyone I'm a Republican. Excellent methods. Give me a break. Just because I don't agree with all of you about everything doesn't make me a damn conservative. I voted for Clinton, and I voted for Kerry. And I have supported the grass roots movement by Howard Dean.

But I am a Catholic, I am a Christian. And my idealogy may not be completely the same as yours. I'm not trying to fight an idealogical war here - I'm trying to suggest a common courtesy.

[Warren DeMontague]

86. Why don't you read what I wrote about the Institution of the Church

versus the mass of people who constitute the believers.

When someone starts spouting right-wing talking points, I call it as such. Saying liberals "bash christianity and sing kombuyah" is a right-wing talking point.

And, in the interests of courtesy-- as well as linear coherence-- you may want to work on responding directly to the post you wish to address. That's meant as friendly advice, I know you're new here- not trying to be condescending. Seriously- it makes the discussion WAY easier to follow.

Peace.

[Warren DeMontague]

87. If my ideology was tied up with an ORGANIZATION that harbored

child molesters, I actually might think you would have a point.

The Catholic Church is not an egalitarian body of believers where everyone is equal-- at least not the last time I checked. There is a heirarchy. An organization. An institution. Someone gives the orders. Someone makes the decisions. Someone inventories the loot in the basement of the vatican. Are you saying that the bishops can't be held responsible for moving child-molesting priests around instead of turning them in to the proper authorities? Or are you saying that, since the behavior involves your church, any mention or criticism of said activity is "bigotry" and an insult to all Catholics, as well as your personal ideology?

Because that's patently ridiculous.

[davidthegnome]

90. Well

<<The Catholic Church is not an egalitarian body of believers where everyone is equal-- at least not the last time I checked. There is a heirarchy. An organization. An institution. Someone gives the orders. Someone makes the decisions. Someone inventories the loot in the basement of the vatican. Are you saying that the bishops can't be held responsible for moving child-molesting priests around instead of turning them in to the proper authorities? Or are you saying that, since the behavior involves your church, any mention or criticism of said activity is "bigotry" and an insult to all Catholics, as well as your personal ideology?>>

I continue to maintain - that the Christian is a part of the church, we can be forgiven our sins (forgiven by God, that is). And yes, it is a community, a community in which people do generally believe themselves equals, at least where I come from. It's not giving orders, but some times we consider someone first among equals - because we respect their wisdom. Those we consider first among equals, are usually the ones who teach us about our religion. We accept that they know about it - because they have attended years of seminary school and studied mythology and theology.

Some times they are child molesters, in which case, I believe they should be imprisoned for life. But I'm not in control of that. I can try to push my agenda forward, but I can't always make my will a reality. I am not god.

I don't think the Catholic Church is an "organization" - perhaps we consider things differently from the idealogical standpoint. But that doesn't make my belief ridiculous. It's just a belief.

And, I am willing to concede - I may be wrong. We should keep yelling and screaming about those Christians who betray Christ. But perhaps there should be just a little more effort given to not making the Christians of this forum feel like garbage, because of their idealogical beliefs. And, generalized insults towards the church, tend be very insulting to me. As I said - I do not agree with the actions that were taken, and I will be posting this in many different forums across the net - but I'm going to be very careful not to insult christians while I do so.

If we want all christians to pay attention to our cause, we could try to be just a little more respectful of other people in general, and that's all I'm saying. And I disagree... intensely with that quote of yours. But I can agree to disagree. There's also the fact that you're unlikely to ever convince anyone that you're absolutely right. Even Christ, great as he was - did not do that. (A failure on humanity's part, I personally believe, NOT on his)

None of my posts are intended to be insulting or offensive. Again, I'm trying to suggest a common courtesy. Perhaps you think I'm being too dramatic, or too politically correct, but I believe in what I'm saying (typing).

I apologize however, if I have given the wrong impression.

[July]

79. OTOH

Despite the chancellor's contention that the man's business was inconsistent with church teaching, he goes on to say that "People would be scandalized . . ." by the type of business he ran. So, is it public opinion or church teaching that determines whether you get a church funeral? Sorry, but I smell hypocrisy here.

Speaking as a matron of honor at a Catholic wedding between a Catholic and a divorced atheist that went ahead with no problems.

[Liberty Belle]

83. Gay porn was filed at the clubs, the San Diego Union-Tribune

reported. A spokesman for the club claimed they rented out the place to private parties at times, and that any gay porn filming was done without the owner's knowledge.

The diocese claims this was the reason.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

85. The Catholic Church protects pedophiles and gives last rites to McVeigh

what makes this guy worse? I await your response.

[Cuban_Liberal]

97. Don't hold your breath.

I do not defend the abuse of children, so if you are expecting me to do so, I'm sorry to disappoint you. As far as Timothy McVeigh is concerned, he was a Protestant, and received no last rights; had he been a Catholic, he would have been entitled to them.

[NNN0LHI]

107. McVeigh was Catholic and did receive Catholic last rites

http://edition.cnn.com/2001/LAW/06/11/mcveigh.candiotti.otsc/

Susan Candiotti: McVeigh changed mind and was given last rites

<snip>Prison Warden Harley Lappin offered Tim a Catholic priest. According to McVeigh's lawyer Robert Nigh, Tim said he would consider it.

Nigh said after a 15-minute final meeting with his client during which they discussed whether McVeigh, a self-described agnostic, would see a priest and receive the final sacraments of the Catholic faith, McVeigh agreed.

Strapped to a gurney, McVeigh asked to see a priest.

The Bureau of Prisons says McVeigh received the sacrament called the Anointing of the Sick by an unidentified prison chaplain.

That sacrament includes a confession and absolution of sins.

[Cuban_Liberal]

116. OK, my error.

Doesn't change my position, however.

:shrug:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

129. OMG! Stripping is more sinful than harboring molesters? Who knew?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

130. Also more sinful than mass murder, it seems

:eyes:

[RevCheesehead]

81. Where do people get the idea that the Church HAS TO do something?

I'll play devil's advocate here, because there's another issue which nobody wants to discuss.

WHY did this man's family want him buried in/by the Catholic Church? Why did they want a church funeral?

The hard, cold, simple fact is that the Church does not exist to serve YOU. If you come to church simply to be baptized, attend confirmation, get married, and have funerals - you have missed the point.

I take church membership seriously. If someone is a member, I expect to see them in worship on a regular basis. If they are unable to attend, they will be on my list of shut-ins. If they are away at college, I would know that as well. But one think which irks the hell out of all of us pastors is the people who show up out of nowhere, demanding that we cater to their needs. Then, once the big event is over, they disappear again.

My cousin wanted to be married in a church. When the pastor asked her why, she didn't have an answer. When he asked why she didn't go to church, she answered, "I'm the kind of person who's more comfortable in a Trout Stream than in a church." The pastor then asked her why she didn't want to get married in a trout stream.

And guess what? I agree with the pastor.

The Church is the Church. It has rules, doctrine, and dogma. Not all rules are equally enforced, so there is hypocrisy. But it is useless to rail against the Church's rules.

Now, if you're Methodist, you could get actively involved in the church, and go about the business of CHANGING the rules. But if you're content to pee in someone else's cornflakes, I'm not OK with that.

Flame away.

[Warren DeMontague]

88. I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in membership in anything

remotely resembling the Catholic Church, so personally I couldn't give a flyin' Philadelphia Fuck.

And honestly, it's beyond me why otherwise sane and sensible people go through so many god-damn contortions to try to make their funky lives gel with an organization with such ridiculously outmoded "rules, doctrine, and dogma". I have a 34 year old female friend who is marrying her 38 year old boyfriend later this year... in the Catholic Church. They have to do this dumb-ass little dance, pretending they are virgins (yeah, right) pretending they don't use birth control, pretending they haven't been living together for two years...

Phew. From where I sit, all I can think is, What a monumental waste of time.

A Gay Bar Owner? Why bother? You've got an organization that doesn't miss a chance to inform you that a "loving god" is going to roast you in the barbecue of eternity because of who you, yourself choose or are born to love. Frankly, I think most gays are way too good for the Catholic Church (just like they should be too good for the Republican Party), at least as the organization stands now. (A few more popes like John XXIII, and maybe things might be a little more different)

I thank the god I most emphatically don't believe in that no one ladled that stuff into my innocent young brain before I was old enough to protest.

[RevCheesehead]

91. I'm sure that "the god" you "most emphatically don't believe in"

is relieved to learn that you "don't give a flyin' Philadelphia fuck."

The irony is that for someone who claims he has no use for the church, you have spent a considerable amount of time on this thread whining and bitching about that same church.

Is this a church issue for you? Or is it a gay issue for you? Either answer is OK, I'm just wondering why you hate it so much. :shrug:

[Bill McBlueState]

123. heaven/hell mythology

They have to do this dumb-ass little dance, pretending they are virgins (yeah, right) pretending they don't use birth control, pretending they haven't been living together for two years...

That's because they're afraid of going to hell if they don't please the church. The Christian heaven/hell mythology has an amazingly strong hold on people. That's perhaps why otherwise liberal people give churches a free pass they'd never consider giving other right-wing organizations.

[RevCheesehead]

135. Are they?

Are they really afraid of going to hell?

Or are they being hypocritical, just going along with the rules in order to get what they want?

[merh]

92. This statement bugs the shit out of me!

"The hard, cold, simple fact is that the Church does not exist to serve YOU"

Please explain to me why does the Church exist.


:shrug:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

93. TO MAKE MONEY eom

[Joe Chi Minh]

133. "I know my sheep, and they know me".

It exists to serve Christ's flock. It doesn't mean that it has done so by any means perfectly, or that church membership is an insurance policy for heaven, but neither does it mean that it owes a duty of deference to the wishes of those who despise it (yet who mysteriously spend so much time and effort criticising it (when they are not trying to change its most basic, scriptural and traditional tenets to their own tastes). Christianity is meant to be a hard row to hoe.

[RevCheesehead]

136. Good. I'm glad it bugs you.

Seriously, I'm glad, because it forces us to think deeply about our faith and what we believe.

*The Church exists primarily to Worship God. We are individuals, who through our baptism become part of the Body of Christ. When we gather for worship, the Body is brought together as a whole. We are nourished and fed, so that we can be renewed to go back into the world to love and serve God.

*The Church exists as a place to learn about God, and God's unique incarnation in Jesus. (this is the Gospel message)

*The Church exists as a place to confess our sins and receive forgiveness. Repentance (metanoia) means literally "a change of direction" - that you will change your ways. It is understood that just as you receive forgiveness, so you will forgive others. (Sermon on the Mount, also Matthew 18:21-35)

*The Church exists as a place to discover and claim your unique gifts that have been given to you. These gifts are not to be ignored, but used - for the glory of God. (see Romans 12; 1 Corinthians 12)

*The Church exists as a mutually-sustaining and life-giving entity. (The vine and the branches, see John 15)

*The Church exists as a place in which you become empowered to go into the world, as a servant, to love and serve God and one another. (Matthew 28:18-20)

edited to add: Ultimately, we Christians exist to serve the Church.

[merh]

138. If we Christians are the church, if we make up the church,

and are duty is to serve our fellow man, then ultimately the church is there to serve. :shrug:

[donco6]

100. That's crazy.

And completely antithetical to Christ's teachings. (Please tell me you're not a real "Rev" Cheesehead.)

20(M)Then the mother of (N)the sons of Zebedee came to Jesus with her sons, (O)bowing down and making a request of Him.
21And He said to her, "What do you wish?" She said to Him, "Command that in Your kingdom these two sons of mine (P)may sit one on Your right and one on Your left."

22But Jesus answered, "You do not know what you are asking. Are you able (Q)to drink the cup that I am about to drink?" They said to Him, "We are able."

23He said to them, "(R)My cup you shall drink; but to sit on My right and on My left, this is not Mine to give, (S)but it is for those for whom it has been (T)prepared by My Father."

24And hearing this, the ten became indignant with the two brothers.

25(U)But Jesus called them to Himself and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them.

26"It is not this way among you, (V)but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant,

27and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave;

28just as (W)the Son of Man (X)did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many." Matthew 20.

The whole point of Christianity is to serve, not be served.

[RevCheesehead]

134. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Yes, I am a pastor.

**please note I gave the disclaimer of playing "devil's advocate."**

I guess that it would depend on your definition of "service/servant." If you understand servanthood as the goal, then it is our place, as followers of Christ, to become the servants - not the receivers. For those who come to the church wanting only "to be served," they've missed the whole point.

Some people view the Church as a mall: "Oh, I need a Baptism." "Oh, we need a place for the wedding." "We'd better have grandpa's funeral at the church, because otherwise people will talk."

re: baptism. If you want your child baptised, you'd better understand what baptism is: It is a PROMISE to raise the child AS A CHRISTIAN, in a Christian environment, teaching them the faith until they can accept it (or reject it) for themselves. Baptism is not "a free ticket to heaven." Baptism is not "a family ritual." It is the initiation process whereby one is named as a Child of God, sealed with the Holy Spirit, and initiated as a member of Christ's holy church - with the understanding that the child will someday confirm that choice for him/herself. If the parents aren't going to fulfill their promises made at the baptism of their child, then they are the hypocritical ones, not the church.

re: weddings.
A wedding is a sacred covenant - a promise made in the presence of God - to mutually love and honor one another. It is presupposed that a Christian wedding is for Christians, that is, for active members of the church. I've had people drop by, looking for a church to have their wedding. I've had people join the church in order to be married in the church, only to disappear after the wedding is over. I've had people from other congregations and denominations ask me to perform their wedding, because their church's pastor refused to marry them (second wedding/unwanted pregnancy/believer-nonbeliever). For those who have had no use for the Church until their wedding (yet retained their membership) - why do you want to have your wedding in the church? You don't attend, you have no use for it, yet you expect the church to simply do it because you want it to.

re: funerals. see above.
If you've had nothing to do with church, you haven't attended at all, you feel disdain for church teaching, and fail to live according to Christ's teachings - why do you want a church funeral? That seems to me to be the ultimate hypocrisy.

Sorry to disillusion you, but that's the cold, hard truth that clergy have had to deal with. We're sick of it.

But hey, catch me on a good day, and I might give you a different answer.

[JVS]

139. Preach it, RevCheesehead!

[Donailin]

101. O wow.

The only scandal here is that the Church, once again, demonstrates her complete hypocrisy in matters of faith and mercy and justice and love.

What would Jesus do? The same thing he did 2000 years ago. The rant of the seven woes:



Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
“Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them ‘Rabbi.’

“But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 1Nor are you to be called ‘teacher,’ for you have one Teacher, the Christ. The greatest among you will be your servant. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

“Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.’ You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.’ You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices–mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law–justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and selfindulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!

“You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. Look, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!”

[Misunderestimator]

114. "do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father,

...and he is in heaven."

Good post!

[Donailin]

122. this one too:

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. "

Jesus was so cool, so radical and so blatantly liberal.

thanks :-)

[Bridget Burke]

103. The San Diego Diocese appears to have made a bad decision.

Therefore, all Catholics ain't worth shit.

Does this make sense to you? If so, why?

[donco6]

105. Read the 50 posts first

Then post another more worthwhile question.

[Misunderestimator]

110. I'm soooo confused! Why haven't I heard about the millions of adulterers

refused a funeral in the Catholic Church? Since they refuse to bury a "sinner" such as a gay bar owner, why wouldn't they refuse every person who had ever had a divorce, or cheated on their spouse, or stole in their tax returns? Or soldiers who killed for their governments?

And what about all that "Jesus Died for Our Sins" stuff? Where is that in here? The hypocrisy confuses the shit out of me once again.

[Jack Rabbit]

115. Hamlet, 5.1.242-44

. . . I tell thee, churlish priest,
A mininst'ring angel shall my sister be
When thou liest howling!

[w4rma]

119. If he was a straight mafia boss they would have had no problem

gays > organized crime, in the Catholic church's minds.

[cap]

121. this is very hurtful to the family and friends of the deceased

a funeral service helps give closure.

[Sforza]

128. sheeeit, hypocrisy and stuff

I think the Church should give a Catholic funeral to whoever wants one. Even if this bar owner was a big sinner, who knows if he had a death bed conversion. One should never presume.

But I also think the Church should refuse a christian burial to anyone who supports pre-emptive war and US world domination. What about that.

Dead? Voted for Bush? It's off to potter's field for you!

Maybe when this Pope passes, the Church will pick a nice young radical bishop (are there any?)to run the show and bring the CC into the 20th century. And then right after, into the 21st century.

Stuff the Church gets right: a huge history of intelligent theology, really cool architecture, universities, orphanages, and hospitals, catholicity and inclusiveness (finally), and creation of the Renassance.

Stuff the Church needs to do: take care of the world's homeless, allow female priests to be married, institute zero tolerance for pedophiles, sell off idle church property, include anti-war and anti-death penalty stances along with the anti-abortion. Abortion is not nice. It is violent and ugly and should never be needed. I think the Church is right about this. If the Church endorsed abortion, I think it would lose its claim of being Jesus's Church. But what the Church needs to do more than anything is get fucking relevant. As Bob Dylan pointed out, it's a political world. The Church needs to found powerful organizations designed to bring justice to this world.

And finally, the Pope needs to say: "All good Catholics must work hard to defeat the cruel and selfish republican agenda and impeach and jail Bush and his minions for the good of america and the world. And I, as Pope hereby excommunicate Bush, Wolfowitz, Cheney, and Rumsfeld. I also hereby forbid Catholics to vote for Republicans ever again. Peace and have a groovy day."

[arwalden]

131. That Just Makes Me Want To VOMIT!! They Are No Better Than Phelps!!

And to think that people STILL wonder why so many things about the Catholic church (AND their leaders) absolutely disgust me. But don't dare criticize it... or you're "Catholic bashing".

[Kathy in Cambridge]

140. I'm Catholic and I freely bash the power hierarchy

there are some individual parishes and priests that don't succumb to the corruption of the leadership.