If a kids' camp existed for agnostic and atheist kids to freely discuss the lack of a God...

[Buzz Clik]

... would that be atheistic evangelism?

I cannot imagine why it would not. And I cannot think of anything more bizarre.

(And yes, such a camp exists)

[NightWatcher]

1. as long as the counsellors arent priests, it's all good because no one will get molested

here Timmy, this can be our little secret

[JerseygirlCT]

2. I suppose... sort of?

In any event, it wouldn't trouble me.

Why shouldn't people - including kids - be free to discuss their beliefs (or lack thereof?).

Wouldn't the discussion about the lack of a God be sort of a short one? I'm having a hard time picturing that part.

But if there are kids who have been raised without a belief in a diety, then I imagine the chance to spend time with others like them would be pleasant.

[TechBear_Seattle]

3. "Evangelism" requires taking ones own beliefs and bringing them to non-believers

A religious camp where Christian kids can freely discuss Jesus and God is not evangelical. An evangelical camp would be one where believers in a particular set of beliefs work to indoctrinate children into those beliefs (think "Jesus Camp.")

An "atheistic evangelical" camp would be one where atheist adults attempted to brainwash religious children into non-religion. I have never heard of such things. The closest I know about are camps where children, who may or may not believe, are allowed to have fun without religious or theological brainwashing of any kind, either for or against. That would not meet the definition of "atheistic evangelism."

[Dogtown]

8. Excellent, TechBear_Seattle!

100% agreement.

[Dorian Gray]

59. Isn't that like most camps?

I went to summer camp when I was little, and there was nary a religious moment. No church. No mention of religion. Just swimming and archery and arts and crafts and games.

[SteelPenguin]

4. Link for Camp?

If the camp is purely about that, I'd consider it odd, but if it's a regular summer camp that has that as part of it's basis, I don't see anythign bizarre about it.

When I went to camp when I was young, and agnostic, I was forced to put up with Christian prayers at mealtime, and Sunday service. I had no choice in the matter. Of course this was in the south many years ago. If I had the option of sending my kids to a summer camp that advertised itself as agnostic, where there would explicitly be no prayers or sunday services, I would definitely consider it.

However if it were a core aspect of the camp where every day they discussed agnostic or atheistic philosophy, that would be too weird, and I probably wouldn't send my kids there.

[Buzz Clik]

11. No link just yet, but I'll find it.

I was listening to Morning Edition (NPR) on the way in to work, and they're having a feature on it this afternoon. When I heard the description of the camp, my reaction was, "You have got to be kidding me."

[Gold Metal Flake]

19. I look forward to a link to the most bizarre thing you can think of.

:eyes:

[Buzz Clik]

38. It's actually been provided by others.

Here's one from last year: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=12770420

Happy now?

[Gold Metal Flake]

55. "Happy now?"

You react to the request for facts regarding the topic you wish to declare "the most bizarre thing you can imagine" with the same sort of impatience as an average freeper.

[JHB]

68. "my reaction was, "You have got to be kidding me.""

About the camp? or the report?

Considering the usual coverage anything tagged as "atheist" gets in the mainstream press, if something sounded fishy, my first guess would be "inaccurate report"

[cobalt1999]

5. Wouldn't it get boring fast?

How long can you discuss the non-existence of fictional beings without getting bored? I give it 10 minutes.

[trof]

51. But what about the Crafts Hut?

;-)

[Mass]

6. And? Not sure what your point is. There is nothing wrong for kids to discuss religions

as long as they respect each others. It is actually a good exercise to understand that, because your neighbor thinks differently than you do, they are evil.

[Buzz Clik]

7. My point is pretty simple: atheism is the absence of religion. Making a religion of it is weird.

I watch very little television because it's unimportant to me. If someone created a television program directed toward people who don't like television, no one would watch it.

If atheists truly do not believe in God, then they should be able to walk this earth totally ignoring those who do.

[Mass]

12. Since when does discussing about something make it a religion?

I am confused about about the camp now? And you cannot walk this earth ignoring people who are different. Or, I guess you can, but you are not somebody I do not want to meet. Such a lack of intellectual curiosity is only worth of the freepers.

[Buzz Clik]

27. I'm not suggestion ignoring religious people, I'm suggesting ignoring their religious beliefs.

I never had a single problem with atheists until Richard Dawkins rekindled his career by making money talking about things he doesn't believe.

[Moochy]

37. Wow

You claim to know what he believes and does not believe? Sounds like you've got the God Delusion pretty bad, what with your claims to omniscience.

[Ian David]

82. I'm sure you're a lovely person. But I want you to know I really don't like you. n/t

[Goblinmonger]

160. So you have a problem

with a group of people that are disrespected in society (look at the U of Minn study before you dismiss my claim) and are generally an "in-the-closet" group and you find it "the most bizarre thing ever" that that group of people might want to have a place for their children to get together where they can talk about their thoughts on religion without being ostracized by those around them.

My friend, if that is "the most bizarre" thing you have ever heard of, you need to fucking get out more.

Have you even read an entire book by Dawkins? Probably not. I would place his expertise on the matters he writes about well above yours. Any given day.

[SteelPenguin]

13. That's a bad analogy

You watch little television at home, but what if every time you opened a book or a magazine there was a good chance it was talking about television, or television programs. Every time you went outside you heard televisions. You go shopping and they have TV's with specials, programs, etc on them all over the place. You wait in line at the bank, and there is a television. You go to the airport and there are televisions everwhere with information, CNN, and more. Every day you can hear the television from the bigscreen at the TV afficianado's club down the street come on at a specific time, to call people to watch a specific show.

Then in this environment, where you think TV is bad for you, and a tool for enslaving the populace to be mindless, you have children. They go with you everywhere. Their friends watch TV, they see TV's everywhere, read about tv shows everywhere, and their friends ask them to come over to their house to watch TV. you know that sometimes they go over to other people's houses for dinner, and they watch TV before dinner.

In that environment, you don't think you would want to discuss why TV is bad for your children with them, or possibly send them to a summer camp with no TV's at it and advertises that they have no TV's, rather than the ones that have a TV in every cabin, and has TV hour every day?

[Buzz Clik]

28. It's a great analogy, and I DID send my kid to a camp with no television.

But, no one spoke of the evils of television. And they sure as hell didn't watch a television broadcast of why television is bad.

[SteelPenguin]

36. ...You're kidding right?

The television in this is a metaphor for religion.

Many, if not most, summer camps have some sort of Christian component. Anyone can go there, you don't have to be Christian, but they have Sunday services, daily prayers, mealtime prayers etc. Maybe even religious classes. It's also in our everyday lives. In our books, magazines, on television, in our neighborhoods.

You can't just walk through life ignoring religion if you're an Agnostic. It's not going to affect your daily life, but when your kids start asking questions it's everywhere.

If you had two choices of summer camp, and one had TV's, daily television hour, Sunday morning television morning, and a tv in every cabin, would you send your kid there, or to the camp where they said they had no televisions?

Same thing for religion. Agnostics or Athiests might not want their children going to a camp that is going to force religion down their kids throats when they're not there.

[Moochy]

41. Engaging Buzz Click in a post with logic will result in headaches

and nausea. If you feel you have entered a conversation with buzz click that lasts more than four posts, please consult an admin.

[Buzz Clik]

43. Ok, back you go.

[Moochy]

45. Likewise

jackbooties

[Buzz Clik]

46. "You can't just walk through life ignoring religion if you're an Agnostic." True.

But why the need for a series of summer camps with the central theme of The Absence of Religion.

I just don't get it.

[SteelPenguin]

56. I just don't read that as the central theme

To me the central theme is critical and creative thinking and just general summer camp fun, at least from the website posted. Yes they have discussions on religion, various religions, and look at them critically, but it seems that they do that about everything, and take more of a humanist scientific approach to things.

I wouldn't send my children to a summer camp that was 4 hours a day of talking about atheism, that's just boring, but I would send them to one that specifically focused on critical, scientific, and creative thinking from a secular standpoint because I'd rather they do that then be forced to pray or listen to sermons.

[Ian David]

16. If you'd all shut the fuck up, then maybe we could.

I'm just sayin'

[TechBear_Seattle]

23. People should not speak out against evil, just because evil is perpetrated as a religious belief?

When people try to use their religious beliefs to eliminate my legal, civil and basic human rights, you can damned well be certain I will not ignore those religious beliefs. When people try to use their religious beliefs to force me to adhere to their beliefs and act in accordance with their doctrines, I will speak out, and very loudly.

Very few atheists want to eliminate religion entirely; most would be happy to walk this earth totally ignoring the deluded. But don't expect us to remain silent as they attempt to force their delusions into reality.

[Buzz Clik]

26. That isn't what this discussion is about.

[Ian David]

102. My good friend "ignored" isn't known for understanding much. n/t

[edhopper]

58. Because

it's easy to ignore people who use their religion to justify, say, flying a plane into a building, or attacking a country unprovoked.
Stellar reasoning there Buzz.

[Iggo]

62. And most of us do...most of the time.

But it's impossible to "totally" ignore them, when it's their mission to change the world around them (it's my world, too) to fit their religious views, and to change as many non-believers as they can into believers.

I don't hate them, but I can't totally ignore them.

[Kittycat]

9. Then don't send your kids.

Some people would like to discuss science with the absence of god. Others would like to discuss the impact perceived gods and religion have on society - and how they differ. Given that many children in the US are raised with Christian Ideals - maybe some parents want their children to understand the difference, and why they aren't religious.

And for the record - we're an Agnostic household that leans UU/Christian. I was raised in a christian fundamentalist household, and the daughter & niece of pastors. Personally, I think Camp Quest sounds like a great place to send my kids when they're older.

[Buzz Clik]

17. Organized discussions of why God couldn't exist is a normal thing for atheistic kids?

It seems like a remarkable waste of intellectual energy.

Personally, I don't like proselytizing for religion; proselytizing for no religion is the most confusing thing ever.

[Ian David]

21. Perhaps you're merely easily confused. n/t

[Buzz Clik]

31. Perhaps not. Perhaps I can see inconsistent logic where you cannot.

A disagreement between people does not mean that one of the participants is necessarily inferior. And I don't like your inference.

[Ian David]

34. You're right. Not necessarily. n/t

[Kittycat]

39. Organized discussion on how people's religion impact society is very normal discussion.

It's called social studies, and it's taught in schools all over the country. However, when it was taught to me - it was done so with a christian slant that always came back to we're right, and they're sinners. Or it was positioned in a way were it was okay to turn your nose up at it.

In UU Church, our kids are taught about all religions, as a modem of respect and understanding - but also so that they can understand how religion can skew or change perception. It allows the children to open their minds and explore paths of religion and society without boundaries.

[Buzz Clik]

48. I couldn't agree more.

I've had many hours-long discussions about religion -- atheists, Jews, Mormons, agnostics, evangelical fundies, Muslims, Hindus, etc. It's a fascinating discussion.

But a kids' camp?

[Kittycat]

53. Why not?

It's a place for non-religious children to discuss the religions that impact their daily lives. Having friends that are raised to believe/not believe like them - and discuss life in a predominately religious society. It's healthy and therapeutic.

Kind of like - why I want to send my son to a special needs camp in a couple years... So he can be with people like him, and talk about it while having fun, protected environment.

[moggie]

72. Yeah, why discuss anything with kids?

Why try to teach kids critical thinking, science, what other people believe, or any of that shit? Plenty of time for that once they've grown up, right?

[Goblinmonger]

161. Fuckin' kids

what do they know?

[RaleighNCDUer]

66. Technically, ALL children in the US are raised with Christian Ideals.

And that includes atheist, Muslim, Jewish, Pagan, Hindu, Buddhist and any other group children you can think of. "Christian Ideals" permeate the society at every level, from school to sports to entertainment to business, and you can't take three steps in any direction without bumping into a christian. It is a fairly safe bet that most non-christians know more about christianity by the time they are out of their teens than most christians do because they are constantly confronted and see the society in contrast with their own upbringing, which is always a good learning tool.

What I'm saying is, we are all raised with, but not necessarily believing in, the tenets of christianity.

[Ian David]

10. That would be Camp Quest

Camp Quest is the first residential summer camp in the history of the United States for the children of Atheists, Freethinkers, Humanists, Brights, or whatever other terms might be applied to those who hold to a naturalistic, not supernatural world view.

The purpose of Camp Quest is to provide children of freethinking parents a residential summer camp dedicated to improving the human condition through rational inquiry, critical and creative thinking, scientific method, self-respect, ethics, competency, democracy, free speech, and the separation of religion and government guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States.

Camp Quest was first held in 1996 and until 2002 was operated by the Free Inquiry Group, Inc. (FIG) of Cincinnati and Northern Kentucky. The idea for the project originated with Edwin Kagin and he and his wife Helen served as Camp Directors for the first ten years of the original Camp Quest, retiring at the end of the 2005 camp session.

Currently Camp Quest, Inc., an independent 501(c)(3) educational non-profit, operates the Ohio Camp Quest and works to coordinate with and support the other independently governed Camp Quest programs. Six Camp Quest summer camps currently offer programs across North America.

A brand new Camp Quest UK program is forming! They are looking for interested volunteers and now is the time to act!

Camp Quest, Inc.
[e-mail]
48 Howard St.
Albany, NY 12207

More:
http://www.camp-quest.org/

[Mass]

18. Thanks. It put things in perspective. I'd like to have had a camp like that for my kids.

Somewhere where you can talk about life without interfering religion at every step.

[Ian David]

22. That's where my daughter is going as soon as she's old enough. n/t

[rox63]

44. Cool - There's also a pagan-centered alternative to the Boy Scouts and Girls Scouts

I don't know if they do summer camps. But I'm sure a lot of kids of pagan families might feel more comfortable there. They're called the Spiral Scouts: http://www.spiralscouts.org/

[ozone_man]

93. Or perhaps Camp Inquiry.

Now you have another option. I just heard this on NPR this morning.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=93174374&ft=1&f=1001

[islandmkl]

14. kind of like:

Adhering to the belief that there is no god is a faith within itself.

[Buzz Clik]

25. Exactly. Not for all atheists, but for many of the noisy ones who post here.

[Moochy]

30. How's the view up there from that cross?

The downtrodden, oppressed, religious members of DU! Won't you please give so that a religious DU'er can spread his message of unity?

[Buzz Clik]

33. Nice try, but I'm agnostic.

Oh, fuck! That just blew the holy shit out of your argument! Now what, Batman?

[Moochy]

40. Oh fuck

another Epic Fail thread from Buzz shrill. psst. non-religious people can be "martyrs" too!

[Goblinmonger]

163. Hey, Moochy

don't talk metaphorically, it just confuses him.

[Silent3]

64. Ah, your problem is just with the "noisy ones".

The good little atheists you approve of know how to stay quiet and not draw attention to themselves. Now I understand.

[Goblinmonger]

162. I know you like your atheists

to be in the closet and to not talk about their thoughts on religion, but some of us get uppity and don't want to sit in the back of your stanky bus anymore.

[blueatheart]

201. wouldn't the person who started this conversation be the noisy one?

let's see, this thread did not exist until YOU decided to get noisy by starting the thread and when others disagree with you, they are the noisy ones?, Yes, shut the hell up heathens, only the theist can make noise. Wonder why people would want to send their kids to a camp without the noisy ones.

[Orsino]

32. Only if there were evidence for the existence of deities. n/t

[Buzz Clik]

35. A lot of religions feel that have plenty of physical evidence of their god(s).

Most of us don't accept it, but they certainly do.

[Orsino]

60. That's belief in spite of a lack of evidence. n/t

[Buzz Clik]

61. As I said, many religions feels they have evidence.

The rest is faith.

[Orsino]

63. This point is moot without an agreement on what constitutes evidence.

They don't have it, so their belief is based on faith.

[Bill McBlueState]

78. so now feeling like you have evidence is the same as having evidence?

Where am I, some kind of crazy-ass postmodern Disney World?

[Ian David]

15. Evangelism is about pestering other people.

Merely sending your own kids to a camp that shares your beliefs is not Evangelism.

Being a douchebag and knocking on a strangers door at 8 AM on a Saturday to tell them about your particular revisionist history version of Jesus is Evangelism.

e·van·ge·lize Audio Help /ɪˈvændʒəˌlaɪz/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, -lized, -liz·ing.
–verb (used with object)
1. to preach the gospel to.
2. to convert to Christianity.
–verb (used without object)
3. to preach the gospel; act as an evangelist.
Also, especially British, e·van·ge·lise.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/evangelize

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SteelPenguin]

49. It's not evangelism per se

It's also not so much seeking out affirmation for a lack of belief. It seems that it's partially a desire to avoid those Christian camps, as well as a camp that overall promotes critical thinking. They don't just sit around and discuss atheism all day. It's a regular camp, and that aspect of it is minimal and takes place as discussions in critical thinking, according to their website.

Plus some people may actually need affirmation for lack of belief, particularly in our society where people who don't 'believe' are routinely mocked and attacked. Just look at the maniac who killed those people at the UU church. Affirmation from other people that you're not crazy is something that alot of people like. We like being in the company of others who we feel similiar too. It makes us comfortable.

[JHB]

67. Activities list from one branch camp...

Mostly standard camp fare, though they spell "snipe" funny ;-)


-----------------------
In its inaugural year, Camp Quest of the Smoky Mountains saw campers participating in the following activities:


Salamander Hunting
Invisible Pink Unicorn Hunt
Philosophy Cafe
Campfire making
Tree species identification
Bird watching
Learning survival techniques
Team-building activities
Nature hikes
Dodge ball
Swimming
Learning to play recorder
Campfires
Sing-alongs
Photography
Communication Skills
Freethinker Jeopardy
Magic Show
Chess
Crafts
Designing blind and double-blind experiments
And a whole bunch more
This year we expect the demand to be great, so register early to avoid missing out. All activities are conducted in a manner consistent with secular humanist principles, and after a very successful first year, we've thought of all kinds of ways to make the camp even better.
http://www.rationalists.org/cq/activities.php

[Moochy]

52. "it's shown its ugly face on this thread"

Hey there is that cross again! Comfy up there on that agnostic martyr-cross?

[moggie]

69. Why mischaracterise it that way?

Ian posted what Camp Quest is about. Here it is again:

"The purpose of Camp Quest is to provide children of freethinking parents a residential summer camp dedicated to improving the human condition through rational inquiry, critical and creative thinking, scientific method, self-respect, ethics, competency, democracy, free speech, and the separation of religion and government guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States."

Which part of this do you find bizarre or objectionable?

[Evoman]

70. Where the fuck do you see atheist evangelism in this thread?

You come here to discuss your views, presumably with us...nobody is going out to look for you to convert you. You even started the fucking thread....and a damn flame-festy one at that.

People like you astound me. Don't you have any sort of self awareness?

[Ian David]

103. I don't see the need to seek out other people who play with the same imaginary friend, either.

Or for that matter, the need to seek out people who all love Star Trek

Or the need to seek out people who all collect comic books.

Or the need to seek out people who are all trying to quit drinking alcohol.

Human beings are a social animal.

Have you somehow missed this fact that we don't all live solitary lives bereft of contact with others who share our hopes, dreams, values, interests and hobbies?

Why does this surprise you?

Oh, I know.

Welcome to Planet Earth.

I am Ian.

My species calls itself "Human."

Yes, I will take you to our leader... but I think we'd be better off waiting until January 21st.

Meanwhile, let me show you something we humans call "Baseball."

[beam me up scottie]

104. Stop that there evangelizin'!

Bad Ian :spank:

[deaniac21]

20. Sounds like a peach of a camp

Now, isn't that a daisy?

[Moochy]

24. Not a hypothetical, see post #10

And no, it certainly is not evangelism. God Delusional much? :D

[Orsino]

29. No. That would be a support group for atheists.

Even if they were hitting the streets to deprogram people, advocacy for the abandonment of religious belief doesn't sound like evangelism.

[DailyGrind51]

47. Reminds me of a Woody Allen quote:

"If it turns out that there is a God, I don't think that he's evil. But the worst that you can say about him is that basically he's an underachiever."

Woody Allen

[Buzz Clik]

57. LOL! Woody Allen's perspective on religion is very healthy

"To you I'm an atheist; to God, I'm the Loyal Opposition."

"Not only is there no God, but try finding a plumber on Sunday. "

"God is a bad comedian playing to an audience that is too afraid to laugh."

[GreenEyedLefty]

50. Why is it bizarre?

Evangelism implies proselytizing - you know, conversion. Sounds like these kids are already converted and the camp a safe place for them to discuss whatever it is they believe or don't.

[DearAbby]

54. I sort of like the idea...

a camp where children can go and discuss and learn about what it is like as a non believer living in a country of believers. I am an atheist, should I be ashamed of this? Why shouldn't I raise my children atheist?

I see nothing wrong with this idea.

[SidneyCarton]

65. I have no problem with Atheist Day Camps...

Hell the more the merrier right?

[Evoman]

71. Why does christianity have to BE everywhere. Why can't some atheist and agnostic kids

have some fun without having to hear about how great Jesus is.

Hell, I wish I had a camp like this to go to. I spent most of my time at the kind of camps where you have to pray before and after you take a shit.

[Buzz Clik]

73. You wanted a camp where discussions of atheism/agnosticism replaced prayer?

How about a camp where the central focus was ... camp?

:shrug:

[Evoman]

74. Uh guh...you mean like Camp Quest.

The focus IS camp.

[Buzz Clik]

76. Maybe, but it's drenched with the pursuit of non-belief.

[PassingFair]

107. Atheist/Agnostic kids....

need to work on acceptance, not "the pursuit of non-belief".

It helps them to know that others are grappling
with the acceptance of REALITY.

That their lifespans are very probably
all they are alloted, and how important
it is to live each day to the fullest.

Also to QUESTION AUTHORITY, always.

[JHB]

75. They have those too. There's all sorts of camps.

Categories listed on http://www.summercamps.com/:

Adventure • Teen Tour • Wilderness • Hunting • Environmental Studies • Spy/SecretAgent • International Camp

Alpine Skiing • Archery • ATV/Motocross • Backpacking • Baseball & Softball • Basketball • BMX/Cycling • Boating • Canoeing • Cheerleading • Chess • Circus • Crew/Rowing • Equestrian • Fencing • Field Hockey • Fishing • Football • Go Carts • Golf • Gymnastics • Hiking • Horseback Riding • Ice Hockey • Ice Skating • Inline • Kayaking • Lacrosse • Martial Arts • Mountaineering • Nature Studies • Paintball • Rafting • Rappelling • Riflery • Rock Climbing • Roller Blading • Ropes • Sailing • SCUBA • Skateboarding • Snorkling • Snowboarding • Soccer • Stunts • Surfing • Swimming • Tennis • Track & Field • Volleyball • Wake Boarding • Water Skiing • Water Sports • Windsurfing • Wrestling • Zipline • Other Sports

Art • Arts & Crafts • Circus • Ceramics • Dance • Drama • Fashion-Design • Fashion-Modeling • Film • Magic • Music • Performing Arts • Photography • Rock Music • Theater • Theater-Backstage • Visual Arts • Creative Writing • Other Arts

Animals • Ag/Farming • Archaeology • Aviation • Broadcast Journalism • Business • Business-Internships • College Credits • College Prep • Culinary • Gardening • Gifted • Geo Science • International Studies • Languages • Leadership • Liberal Arts • Life Skills • Marine Biology • Math • Medieval Studies • Pre-College • Public Speaking/Debate • Robotics • SAT-Prep • Science • Space • Other Academics • Community Service • English 2nd Language

Technology Camps
Computers • Digital Photography • Digital Video • Flash Animation • GameDesign/Networking • Game Modding • Hardware • Robotics • Rocketry • WebDesign • 3D-Design

Specialty, Scouting, & YMCA Camps
Fitness • Weight Loss • Spa Experience • Military • Winter & Spring Break • After School • Home School • Family •Boy Scouts • Girl Scouts • YMCA • CIT Program

Special Needs Camps
Asthma • Burn • Cancer • Developmental Disabilities • Diabetes • Epilepsy • Learning Disabilities • ADD/HD • Mainstream • Physical Disabilities • Speech/Hearing • Visually Impaired

Religious Affiliated Camps
Baptist • Catholic • Christian • Episcopal • Jesus Christ of LDS • Jewish • Lutheran • Methodist • Mormon • Muslim • Presbyterian • Quaker • Seventh Day Adventist • Non-Denominational
-----

If you don't get the idea behind Camp Quest, leave it alone and pick another.

[Buzz Clik]

77. Really? I can't make observations about a camp? Why?

[JHB]

79. Are you making observations about the camp?

Or are you making observations of how you pictured the camp from the NPR piece?

Is it so unfathomable that a 7 minute radio piece from a show specifically devoted to religious matters might leave a distorted impression of the overall camp activities?

[Buzz Clik]

80. Dear gawd. You do love parsing words.

[JHB]

81. You didn't answer the question.

Are your observations about the camp or about a caricature of it?

[Buzz Clik]

83. I made no secret about the level of my knowledge of this camp.

As secretly disclosed in the OP (encoded as words of the English language), I happened to mention that I heard a promotion of a story on this subject.

And, as you brilliantly deducted, my opinion is just that -- an opinion. More unforgivable, my opinion is not based on first hand experiece: I have not attended the camp, I am not a camp director, nor am I a camp counselor. So, it is possible that my opinion might be swayed by the highly biased source of my information which, by the way, has been enhanced by information directly from the website containing extensive discussions of what they're all about.

Have you visited the website? Have you listened to the audio pieces they provide? Have you attended the camp?

Now that we have arrived at a very obvious conclusion (i.e., I extended my opinion), are you now extemely satisfied with yourself? You haven't changed my opinions nor have you impacted the course of this discussion, but you certain earned my undivided attention for these past 90 seconds.

[Ian David]

89. I like the way you write.

However, I dislike the way you think.

[Buzz Clik]

94. LOL! That's fair.

[JHB]

91. Oh, I'm just rapturous with self satisfaction...

...because nothing makes my day like pompous condescension.

I've visited the website, I've listened to their audio, I've listened to the NPR piece. All that tells me is that it wasn't NPR that was mischaracterizing the camp.

"I like the games, I like the messing with the staff". Yep, simply drenched in the pursuit of non-belief. :eyes:

Parents teach their kids their values. The most important way is by example, but you also need to spend time in more focused and rigorous teaching, getting into the "why" of those beliefs. Most religious groups have long established programs to do this: catechism, Sunday School, and so forth. And religiously-sponsored summer camps. Atheists, being a bit thinner on the ground and inherently less likely to form congregations, generally don't have these standing systems to feed into. So what's the big mystery that there are atheist-oriented camps that help fulfill a similar role for those families?

Not to mention the opportunity for the kids to meet other kids who've had a lot of the same experiences they've had (because we all know how highly regarded atheism is in this country), to not be the oddballs and outliers, to actually have a group of peers. For many, that alone would be worth going to the camp, without spending a single minute "affirming lack of belief".

Have yourself a good evening. :shrug:

[Buzz Clik]

96. Cool. So, I imagine that your family will be populating those camps.

[Ian David]

105. My family will. My wife and I were talking about it this afternoon.

Thank you for bringing-up the subject.

The Camp Quest in California has a Family Week.

They also start taking kids at age seven (looks like all the other camps don't start until age 8).

It looks like what we'll be doing is going for Family Week and then vacationing nearby while our daughter goes to the sleep-over camp for a week.

Thank you for calling attention to this for me.

[Ian David]

98. Atheists have their weekends all to themselves.

It's not like they have someplace they all meet together every Sunday morning.

But that wouldn't be a bad idea.

Maybe at a science museum?

[Ian David]

84. At every camp I ever went to where the focus was camp....

... we still had an "Ecumenical Ceremony" of some kind every Sunday.

You people make such a point of forcing your imaginary friends down our throats at every venue you can, that some people will pay good money to send their kids someplace where they can be free of it for a couple weeks, and learn to resist your brainwashing and constant pressure.

You're so hooked on forcing your superstitions on the rest of us, that you take offense at the idea of people wanting their kids to have a place where for the first time in their lives they can be free of people like you.

Get used to it.

Live and let live.

Allow us at least this one safe-haven from your constant evangelizing that we have to put up with every time we see "In god We Trust" on our money, or when we're pressured to say "One Nation Under god" or to sing "god Bless America" or the people who corner you at the laundromat or at the train station or who invite themselves to our houses or who try to inflict their laws written by backward desert hicks upon a civil society.

Get the fuck over it.

Let our kids be free of your bullshit for a few weeks a year.

Geesh.

Being "offended" by the idea of an Atheist camp is the height of hypocrisy and douchebaggery.

Get the fuck over it.



PS: Did I mention that I really don't like you? You're probably a good person-- but I've still taken a very strong disliking to you.

[beam me up scottie]

86. Oh, he's not one of them, Ian. If he was, I could understand the paranoia.

He says he's an agnostic...

[Ian David]

87. If he's an agnostic, then I'm the re-animated corpse of Pope John Paul II.

[beam me up scottie]

90. He sure is noisy for an agnostic.

And angry.

Maybe they need to create a camp for noisy angry agnostics.

[Ian David]

97. Such a camp already exists.

http://www.loveinaction.org/

[beam me up scottie]

101. I clicked on the link. And I was scared.

Of course it would have to be in my neck of the buy-bull belt.:banghead:

[Buzz Clik]

127. You've looked better , J2P2.

[moggie]

88. It's easier to spell than "athiest"

[beam me up scottie]

92. Ah, yes...the ever elusive athIEst.

I thought they were extinct.

[Buzz Clik]

129. Way to zoom in on the relevant issue.

[moggie]

156. There's no point in trying to engage you sensibly

Once it's become obvious that you're just indulging in flame-bait, it's pointless to try discussing the issue seriously with you. Sooner or later you'll get bored, and wander off to poke at a different ant-hill.

[Buzz Clik]

189. So you criticize my typographical errors instead? Brilliant!

[moggie]

194. I wasn't aware you'd made any

[knitter4democracy]

85. I agree. It sounds like a wonderful thing for kids.

Heck, my kids went to zoo camp and camp up at the Kellogg Biological Station this year. No faith stuff there, and we're Christian. I did my time at Senior High Camp growing up, and I don't think my kids would like it too much.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

95. I would assume that it's a camp for kids who have been raised as atheists

where they can hang out with like-minded kids. It may be a (pardon the expression) blessed relief for a child who is growing up in the type of Bible Belt town that has seven Baptist churches and five Pentecostal.

There are camps for everything else, including kids with parents in the military overseas, kids with diabetes, kids with special talents, kids from specific religions, kids from specific ethnic groups, why not atheist kids?

[beam me up scottie]

100. Exactly!

I grew up in New England, nobody talked about religion-it was wonderful, and as a kid, I didn't even appreciate it.

Now, after 5 years in the bible belt, I think I need to go to sleep-away atheist camp...maybe then the voices will stop...

[Ian David]

106. He's upset that there's someplace he can't yell "REPENT OR DIE, SINNER!" at our children. n/t

[Buzz Clik]

124. Really? You've posted a dozen times on this thread and still don't know I'm agnostic?

Good lord, man.

[Ian David]

128. I know that you have said you are agnostic.

87. If he's an agnostic, then I'm the re-animated corpse of Pope John Paul II.

And you even RESPONDED to that comment.

So, you know what I think of your "agnostic" claim.

[Buzz Clik]

152. "And you even RESPONDED to that comment." Check the time sequence.

You and I are no longer having a conversation. You're playing to the crowd.

The last comment is yours.

[JerseygirlCT]

180. Right. That's what I'd think, too.

It's hard to make it an exact analogy to a religiously-themed camp, because there isn't some unified "theology" of atheism.

But I can definitely see where atheist kids would want a safe place to talk about what they think and why, without the fear of being looked down on for their lack of religious belief.

[jmowreader]

99. I can just see the "free discussion"

Camp Counselor: "Campers, it's time to freely discuss the lack of a god. So, start freely discussing."

Biggest camper: "Everyone cool with the concept there's no god? Good! Let's make ice cream!"

[Buzz Clik]

126. One could only hope that "kids will be kids" and find the camp to be boring as hell.

If these kids are like most kids, they seldom buy into their parents' obsessions.

[onager]

108. You can see these kids for yourself...

Just look up the CBC documentary The Atheists: Spreading The Word, aired in October 2007. Available on YouTube as well as the CBC website:

http://www.cbc.ca/national/blog/video/immigrationdiversity/spreading_atheism.html

Highlights: Interviews with kids at Camp Quest and its founders, ordinary Canadians in atheist meet-ups, Sam Harris, atheist rapper (and Iraqi war veteran) Graydon Square and others.

A former Muslim in this show uses one of the most beautiful metaphors I've ever heard for becoming an atheist. After struggling over the question for a long time, he had a dream about walking in his garden with another man. He eventually realized that the other man was God (or his concept of It). He says: "I'm sorry, but I just don't need you any more. You will have to leave." The other man walked out the garden gate, and the Muslim woke up a happy atheist.

Lowlights: the host, Clifton Joseph, claims to be a "fence-sitting agnostic" but yuks it up about how God must exist when he is on the beach at Malibu.

And for a show about atheists, this one gave entirely too much face-time to the tedious "liberal" Xian propagandist Tom Harpur. In a grating school-marmish manner, Harpur lectures us about looking for God in the hollyhocks and hummingbirds. In his maundering Parable Of The Hummingbird, you may note that Harpur runs into the same problem as the mathematician LaPlace: Gawd is just not necessary in the equation. But Harpur tosses It in anyhow.

[Az]

109. Buzz think of it this way

Our society is soaked through with godspeak. It is crammed to the very walls in our society. Atheist parents simply want to have a place they can send their kids during the summer that isn't soaked through with god.

[Buzz Clik]

112. That sounds ominously like the people who are convinced that the world is filled with evil...

... so they paper their walls with pages from the Bible.

If God does not exist and I am convinced of that, then living my life as part of a society that hangs out with an invisible friend is easy.

I agree that sending one's kid to a camp that drips with religion would be intrusive. I still don't understand the need for this camp. I understand the desire for Camp Humanist -- A Summer Haven Devoid of References to the "Supernatural". That part I get. The part I don't understand is the need to send your young kids to a camp for a little "Is there a God? No way in hell" indoctrination. It's just the opposite side of the same coin.

[varkam]

110. Sounds like someone's bringing a bit of baggage to the table. eom

[Ian David]

111. Oops. I meant to sign my daughter up for Camp Quest but accidentally...

... signed her up for this:






My bad.

I must be punished now.

Let's check the schedule for Leather Camp...

Sunday August 17th:
10:30am MCC Service at the local MCC Church Special Service by Rev. Troy Perry

Oh, fuck!

More christian shit!

At bondage camp, no less!

Fucking christians are everywhere, man!

http://www.wichitaleatherpride.com/LCInfo.htm

[SidDithers]

167. ROFL...

That could be fun. Finding all of the supposed "normal" camps that have church service on Sunday mornings.

My impression is that Camp Quest is almost exactly like every other kids camp, but without Sunday services, and Grace before every meal.

Sid

[beam me up scottie]

173. No, Sid! It's obviously a radical fundamentalist boot camp for junior jihad atheists!

NPR implied as much!

:spank:

[Ian David]

185. They also teach science and criticial thinking skills. n/t

[Buzz Clik]

122. No. n/t

[varkam]

182. Of course not.

;)

[trotsky]

113. That would be a strange camp.

Which is probably why that's not what it is about. Why did you feel the need to misrepresent a kids' camp and then bash atheists for it?

http://www.campinquiry.org/

Do you see anything in the course listing about getting together to discuss non-belief in gods?

http://www.campinquiry.org/what.html

[Buzz Clik]

119. Misrepresenting? BULLSHIT.

Here's the opening the line from the NPR story:

At camp inquiry in upstate New York, they spend time hiking and swimming and telling ghost stories around the campfire. All the usual stuff. They also spend time discussing a universe without God.

Listen for yourself, and then come back with your apology.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=93174374

[trotsky]

123. That's from the *story*.

But what actually HAPPENS at the camp?

Are you going to tell me that you trust the media to accurately report this?

[Buzz Clik]

125. Typical of every NPR story, they provide quotes --

quotes from the campers and quotes from the management.

You, my friend, are dead wrong. Pathetically so. Trying to defend your position is pointless.

[trotsky]

131. Yes, "friend," let's look at the story.

What's the focus of the camp?

But at Camp Inquiry, which has a secular humanist focus, God takes a back seat to reason. Of course, the camp schedules familiar camp activities like hiking, swimming, and arts and crafts for kids ages 7 to 16; but the thrust of the camp is to teach children to think skeptically about everything, including religion and the supernatural.

Nothing about focusing on discussing non-belief there. Hmmm.

Perhaps you could identify exactly which quotes you feel are the most damning, revealing the nasty atheist fundamentalists for what they are?

Here's an interesting segment:

If atheists and agnostics are in the majority at Camp Inquiry, they're often alone in their schools and neighborhoods, where polls show 9 out of 10 people believe in God. That is why a few hours later, the teenage campers gather in the shade of a large wooden shelter to discuss their situation with D.J. Grothe, whose "Point of Inquiry" podcast has made him a celebrity in the secular community.

"How many of you are out as skeptics?" Grothe asks. He looks around. "I see all but two or three hands raised. When you've come out as a skeptic, have people just flipped out hearing that you don't believe what everyone else believes?"

Camper Sam LaBarge speaks up. His immediate family isn't religious, he says, but he has several relatives who are Catholic.

"I don't think I'm an atheist," he says. "I just don't have beliefs, but I tell my family that and they think I'm the devil because I don't believe in God."

Members of the group nod in sympathy. Sutherland, the 14-year-old camper, says she accidentally revealed her position as a nonbeliever when she swore in front of her grandmother.

"And she got really mad at me, and said, 'Oh my God, don't take the Lord's name in vain!' And I thought about it for a minute, and I said, 'But he's not my Lord."

It seems pretty clear they're not talking about non-belief itself, they're talking about how their own personal non-belief is viewed by society and how they can best deal with that.

So someone on this thread did indeed misrepresent the facts. But it wasn't me.

[Moochy]

137. The OP Loves him some NPR!!!!11111

you'll know that he is well-fed at NPR's propaganda trough, and is irrational about the goodness of said media outlet. Gotta justify those monthly contributions, and the studebaker he donated I guess!

NPR IS THE BEST!!!!!1111

[cosmik debris]

114. Damned Atheists!

They've got some nerve sneaking off into the woods to discuss stuff!

I cannot think of anything more bizarre than rational people having a rational conversation.

Why do they need to do that when all the ideas are provided for them by their neighborhood church.

Such conversations are not necessary when they are properly spoon-fed the ideas that they are supposed to get.

There is only one explanation. Their parents are derelict in their duty to brainwash the kids.

I'll bet Winston Smith is behind this!

[Buzz Clik]

116. Nice hyperbole. I know you're weren't trying to understand my point, but....

... I explain it further in the post below yours.

[cosmik debris]

118. Merely ridiculing the ridiculous.

Your understand of the camp and of atheism is obviously colored by your intense prejudice.

That's certainly reason enough for ridicule.

[Buzz Clik]

121. Whatever you do, under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should you read this thread.

It would be pure foolishness to enter an argument armed with facts -- like ... I'm an agnostice with atheistic leanings.

But ignore that fact and keep blowing out the insults. It defines you.

[cosmik debris]

133. OK

[Buzz Clik]

115. Judging by the reactions on this thread, I can safely say I've done a poor job expressing myself.

Let me try again:

I don't like fundies. I don't like evangelists of any kind. Religion is a personal thing that, with a bottle of wine and intelligent people, can make for an interesting conversation.

I don't like atheists who are so insecure in their nonbelief that they cannot stop talking about it. I dislike them as much as I dislike evangelical fundies.

Sending a kid to a camp that knee-deep in Jeebus and his Mom is a repulsive. Sending a kid to a camp to talk about how God is impossible is just fucking stupid.

I hope that's a bit more clear.

[trotsky]

117. So the only "good" atheist in your opinion is a silent one?

In a society saturated by religion, can't atheists - many of whom must be silent about their lack of beliefs in their regular lives for fear of shunning or outright discrimination by believers - talk about non-belief without being labeled "fundamentalists" by people like you?

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[trotsky]

132. But I didn't say that.

I'm asking you if that's what you mean. Why so hostile?

Can you please specify just what atheists can or cannot say, and how often, before you condemn them?

[Ian David]

136. They must not pray to god in their closets in private...

... and be not like the hypocrites who stand on the street corners and synagogues not praying so they may be seen of men.

[awoke_in_2003]

155. That about sums it up...

atheists (and women) should be quiet and know there place :sarcasm:

[Ian David]

130. I find my personal dislike of you somehow increasing.

You're obviously an intelligent person based upon how well you write.

However, your positions are so completely twisted around that I have sincere doubts that you're being intellectually honest.

[Buzz Clik]

134. I've come to a startling conclusions about the atheist/agnostic crowd at DU:

If you express an opinion that strays from the dogma, then you are cast out.

I was raised a Christian, but it did nothing for me, and I became convinced that an active belief in God was actually a detriment. I never came to the point of being an atheist, but I haven't embraced a religious thought in 30 years. At the same time, I've never felt threatened by Christians or any other religion and I actually find their strong beliefs to be a point of fascination. Not the stupid stuff, like Jesus rode a dinosaur to church, but the deep issues of faith.

Until I accidentally stumbled into DU's Religion/Theology forum, I never realized that atheists and agnostics actually organized. It never occurred to me that it was possible. ("I'm running for President of Anarchists of America!" huh?) I've come to realize that some atheists are very sensitive about the existence of religion and they hate the fact that religious people too often express themselves openly. It doesn't bother me much, but I appreciate that for some, reading "In God We Trust" on the front of a nickel sets off an emotional jackhammer in their brain.

So, for those people who are very sensitized to religion, I can see that a camp for kids who all don't believe in the same thing might be a good refuge. However, I am being very honest when I say that I just don't get it.

[Ian David]

135. Finally, we seem to agree on something. Anarchists suck!

However, the fact that you don't "get it" might just be because you might not be an it-getter.

[Buzz Clik]

142. No doubt.

[trotsky]

138. To phrase it more accurately...

If you express an opinion that insults or demeans atheists, or maligns or misrepresents atheism, you will be confronted. There is no need to play the "martyr card" here or further misrepresent atheists by assigning them imaginary attributes ("they hate the fact that religious people too often express themselves openly"). (As a side note, that quote is extremely fascinating when you yourself said you don't like it when atheists talk too much about non-belief.)

However, I am being very honest when I say that I just don't get it.

And we are being very honest by affirming that yes indeed, you don't get it, and there is no need to label or insult atheists with bogus terms simply because YOU DON'T GET IT.

[beam me up scottie]

139. Yep, some posters make a habit of not getting it.

All the better to flame you with, my dear...

[Buzz Clik]

141. Good call.

[beam me up scottie]

144. Yes, it was. You don't have the right to define us.

You are completely clueless when it comes to atheism, that much is obvious.

[Buzz Clik]

149. Clueless? Meh.

What is there to know about atheism? The realization that so many here see it as an alternative religion makes me chuckle. So, yeah -- I have no desire to be in the club. I'll continue to be a well-adjusted, clueless agnostic who regards all organized religion (including, apparently, atheism) to be quite bizarre and unnecessary.

[beam me up scottie]

170. Yes, clueless. You've even admitted your ignorance: "What is there to know about atheism?"

Your posts on this thread exhibit extreme intolerance and clearly prove that the double standard that exists in the real world also thrives on DU.

If an atheist were to post similar flame-bait about christians in this forum and then use it to repeatedly and incorrectly redefine them, their thread would be locked.

Instead of asking the mods to lock it, I prefer to use this type of thread as a learning experience for the people who really do come here to communicate.

So, school's in session, darlin', sit up and pay attention.

Let's start with a few easy definitions:

From ReligiousTolerance.org:

Intolerance: Spreading misinformation about a group's beliefs or practices even though the inaccuracy of that information could have been easily checked and corrected.

Now comes the part where you can check and correct the misinformation (there's another word for it but that one will do) that you're spreading:

I'm going to post the broad definition of atheism from a fairly common source even though imo, you seem to prefer willful ignorance to informed tolerance:

Atheism, as an explicit position, can be either the affirmation of the nonexistence of gods,<1> or the rejection of theism.<2> It is also<3> defined more broadly as synonymous with any form of nontheism, including the simple absence of belief in deities.<4><5><6><7>

Many self-described atheists are skeptical of all supernatural beings and cite a lack of empirical evidence for the existence of deities. Others argue for atheism on philosophical, social or historical grounds. Although many self-described atheists tend toward secular philosophies such as humanism<8> and naturalism,<9> there is no one ideology or set of behaviors to which all atheists adhere;<10> and some religions, such as Jainism and Theravada Buddhism, do not require belief in a personal god.

You should pay particularly close attention to this part:

The term atheism originated as a pejorative epithet applied to any person or belief in conflict with established religion.<11> With the spread of freethought, scientific skepticism, and criticism of religion, the term began to gather a more specific meaning and has been increasingly used as a self-description by atheists.

Implicit and explicit atheism


Definitions of atheism also vary in the degree of consideration a person must put to the idea of gods to be considered an atheist. Minimally, atheism may be seen as the absence of belief in one or more gods. It has been contended that this broad definition includes newborns and other people who have not been exposed to theistic ideas. As far back as 1772, Baron d'Holbach said that "All children are born Atheists; they have no idea of God."<30> Similarly, George H. Smith (1979) suggested that: "The man who is unacquainted with theism is an atheist because he does not believe in a god. This category would also include the child with the conceptual capacity to grasp the issues involved, but who is still unaware of those issues. The fact that this child does not believe in god qualifies him as an atheist."<31> Smith coined the term implicit atheism to refer to "the absence of theistic belief without a conscious rejection of it" and explicit atheism to refer to the more common definition of conscious disbelief.

In Western civilization, the view that children are born atheist is relatively recent. Before the 18th century, the existence of God was so universally accepted in the western world that even the possibility of true atheism was questioned. This is called theistic innatism—the notion that all people believe in God from birth; within this view was the connotation that atheists are simply in denial.<32> There is a position claiming that atheists are quick to believe in God in times of crisis, that atheists make deathbed conversions, or that "there are no atheists in foxholes."<33> Some proponents of this view claim that the anthropological benefit of religion is that religious faith enables humans to endure hardships better (c.f.opium of the people Karl Marx, Contribution to the Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right, Deutsch-Französische Jahrbücher February, 1844). Some atheists emphasize the fact that there have been examples to the contrary, among them examples of literal "atheists in foxholes."<34>

Weak and strong atheism

Philosophers such as Antony Flew<35> and Michael Martin<24> have contrasted strong (positive) atheism with weak (negative) atheism. Strong atheism is the explicit affirmation that gods do not exist. Weak atheism includes all other forms of non-theism. According to this categorization, anyone who is not a theist is either a weak or a strong atheist.<36> The terms weak and strong are relatively recent; however, the equivalent terms negative and positive atheism have been used in the philosophical literature<35> and (in a slightly different sense) in Catholic apologetics.<37> Under this demarcation of atheism, most agnostics qualify as weak atheists.

While agnosticism can be seen as a form of weak atheism,<38> most agnostics see their view as distinct from atheism, which they may consider no more justified than theism, or requires an equal conviction.<39> The supposed unattainability of knowledge for or against the existence of gods is sometimes seen as indication that atheism requires a leap of faith.<40> Common atheist responses to this argument include that unproven religious propositions deserve as much disbelief as all other unproven propositions,<41> and that the unprovability of a god's existence does not imply equal probability of either possibility.<42> Scottish philosopher J. J. C. Smart even argues that "sometimes a person who is really an atheist may describe herself, even passionately, as an agnostic because of unreasonable generalised philosophical scepticism which would preclude us from saying that we know anything whatever, except perhaps the truths of mathematics and formal logic."<43> Consequently, some popular atheist authors such as Richard Dawkins prefer distinguishing theist, agnostic and atheist positions by the probability assigned to the statement "God exists".<44>

A chart showing the relationship between the definitions of weak/strong and implicit/explicit atheism. An implicit atheist has not thought about belief in gods; such an individual would be described as implicitly without a belief in gods. An explicit atheist has made an assertion regarding belief in gods; such an individual may eschew belief in gods (weak/atheism), or affirm that gods do not exist (strong atheism).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheist

If that's too complicated, Austin Cline has some simpler explanations:

What Is the Definition of Atheism?

There is, unfortunately, some disagreement about the definition of atheism. It is interesting to note that most of that disagreement comes from theists — atheists themselves tend to agree on what atheism means. Christians in particular dispute the definition used by atheists and insist that atheism means something very different.

The broader, and more common, understanding of atheism among atheists is quite simply "not believing in any gods." No claims or denials are made — an atheist is just a person who does not happen to be a theist. Sometimes this broader understanding is called "weak" or "implicit" atheism. Most good, complete dictionaries readily support this.

There also exists a narrower sort of atheism, sometimes called "strong" or "explicit" atheism. With this type, the atheist explicitly denies the existence of any gods — making a strong claim which will deserve support at some point. Some atheists do this and others may do this with regards to certain specific gods but not with others. Thus, a person may lack belief in one god, but deny the existence of another god.

Below are links to a variety of references pages to help understand how atheism is defined and why atheists define it the way they do.

http://atheism.about.com/od/definitionofatheism/a/definition.htm

Why don't you get back to me after you've done your homework?

'Cuz it's painfully obvious to everyone but you that you're light years out of your league.

[Buzz Clik]

140. Take a look at the OP. It neither demeaned, maligned, nor misrepresented anyone.

But that's par for the course for you. You deal in nothing but hyperbole and act shocked when you're called on it.

[trotsky]

143. Sorry, but it did misrepresent.

And besides, you've already admitted you DON'T GET IT, so why are you trying to defend a position caused by your own inability to understand?

[Evoman]

146. A couple of points:

1) No one is casting you out.

2) Some of us are just as fascinated with religion as you yourself are. Maybe not "good" fascinated, but fascinated enough to want to talk about it.

3)Atheists and agnostics on DU are hardly "organized". We may share some ideas, but we are all individuals who visit just to discuss shit. In my case, it's often between waiting times in my lab experiments. I do not conform to anything...I am not a part of any organization. If you are having confrontations, it's not with a group. It's with individuals who think you are wrong.

4)"I've come to realize that some atheists are very sensitive about the existence of religion and they hate the fact that religious people too often express themselves openly." MOST IRONIC POST EVER.

5)The camp is for kids who want to be exposed to rational and critical thinking, while they do all that fun camp stuff. In many other camps, you'll often get religious counsellors and managers. So you end up having to do shit like pray before supper, or go to a mini-mass on sunday, or even do bible readings. Geez, why would atheist parents ever want send their kids somewhere where there is no god shit, and the kids can get do all the stuff they did at the other camps, without being singled out by the christian kids for not doing stupid god shit. Gasp...not only that, but they can talk about what they feel with the other kids...oh noes :eyes:. If you don't get it bud, it's because you're plain old fucking dense. Damn guy...even the christians in the group understand.

[trotsky]

147. "even the christians in the group understand"

Damn fine point. All the outrage and bluster seems to be coming from the OP - how strange, huh?

[beam me up scottie]

148. Ditto what trotsky said. Thanks for not taking the bait, DU christians!

:applause:

[Buzz Clik]

151. "Atheists and agnostics on DU are hardly 'organized'. " That's not real consistent with this thread.

It started out discussing a camp for agnostic and atheist kids (which sounds kinda organized) followed by a rash of really ugly posts telling me that I am (in no particular sequence):

• A liar
  
• Clueless
  
• A Christian
  
• Intellectually dishonest

and on and on and on.

My reception here (for a thread originally in GD) has hardly been warm and open or disorganized.

Don't you find it odd that a big crowd atheists hangs out at the Religion/Theology forum? There's nothing wrong here that a bit of hard introspection (and maybe a few years of therapy) wouldn't help.

[TZ]

154. Ah ha.

There we have it..the old meme that atheists have no business in R/T.
You don't think WE are affected by religion at all and MIGHT have an interest in discussing it?
Don't you think the assumption that "maybe a few years of therapy" is pretty inflammatory?

What if there was a camp set up to talk about scientific principles like basic evolutionary theory, which fundies dislike intensely to even mention? Would that be a case of being too dogmatic?
Honestly..you are digging yourself a deeper and deeper hole..broadbrushing a group...ie that atheists are fundies of a different type or and organized too is very indicative of someone who has their own set of prejudices to deal with.
HINT: suggesting a group of DU'ers are mentally ill is NEVER a good idea also...

[Buzz Clik]

158. You're starting to get part of my drift. I'll give you credit for that.

Yeah, I really understand that the DU atheists are enamored with this forum -- it's a great place to find some unsuspecting target to wander by and make some otherwise benign comment. You then can spend as much time as the poor bastard is will to give pounding on him/her.

You're science camp sounds like a real winner. Gee, I'll bet my nine-year-old would eat that up -- two weeks of discussing the scientific method. Party central. Next year, Math Camp!!! Almost as much fun as when mom and dad decide that Junior and Missy are two weak to sift through the religious bullshit on their own, so they send them off to camp to insulate them from the evils of theocratic dogma while they chat about the afterlife, the unlikeliness of Jeebus, and the death of God.

And, for what it's worth, my comments about the need for introspection (OR therapy) were directed only at the most mentally unstable of the respondents to this thread. It's up to you to decide whether or not that includes you. If you'd like to know my opinion, just ask...

[Goblinmonger]

164. Or how about this wording

DU atheists like to discuss the role of religion in society. We are in a unique position to realize how often and freely the wall of seperation is broken. What you call giving a pounding to an unsuspecting target is actually atheists (unlike we are normally able to do in real life without repercussions) call bullshit on the way people portray us (you think a camp for atheist children is the most bizarre thing you could thing of) and want us to act in society (read: the noisy ones subthread).

[Buzz Clik]

168. Ok. Let's go with all that:

1. Like to discuss religion in society. A healthy exercise, usually. But on this thread, it was far more than that. Which leads to ...

2. Calling bullshit on the way people portray us. No. You call bullshit when someone makes an observation with which you simply disagree.

And no, I never suggested that atheists act a certain way. I simply can't fathom the need to get affirmation for one's lack of belief in religion nor can I understand why you find it necessary to attack someone for simply espousing a different approach to having a lack of belief. And, yeah -- this is bizarre as it comes.

[Evoman]

165. Lol...the need for introspection. Dude, your in the top twenty of people in need of introspection.

ESPECIALLY after this little tidbit "I've come to realize that some atheists are very sensitive about the existence of religion and they hate the fact that religious people too often express themselves openly."

My god man...the only reason you didn't make the top ten is that there are some real whackos who put you to shame when it comes to being hippocrites and using circular reasoning.

I have yet to decide if your being blatantly dishonest or your dense as lead post when you say shit like, "You're science camp sounds like a real winner. Gee, I'll bet my nine-year-old would eat that up -- two weeks of discussing the scientific method."

Yeah bud...that's really what the camp is about. :eyes:

[Buzz Clik]

169. "I have yet to decide if your being blatantly dishonest or your dense" Holy shit.

I've already had a number of posts deleted from this thread for saying naughty words, and I have no desire to get nutted further because some hothead is trying to blow sand up my ass.

Trace the progression of this thread, if you even give a shit. It starts out as a general discussion and turns into an atheistic circle jerk where insecure rejects attack me in force. You're simply the latest.

Pardon me if I have run out of standard courtesy, but the ill behavior being demonstrated by you so-called atheists (who simply strike me as people seeking a religion that doesn't include God) is a bit wearing.

You get the last word in this one. I will not respond to you further.

[Evoman]

171. Your very first post is flame-bait bullshit.

But maybe I'm "mentally unstable" and "fucking stupid" for being baited by your bullshit.

[beam me up scottie]

181. Don't you just hate it when someone starts a thread just to point and laugh at teh stoopid athiests

and nobody does?

[beam me up scottie]

172. "you so-called atheists (who simply strike me as people seeking a religion that doesn't include God)

Wow, such religious tolerance! :applause:

I'll bet that like the atheists, DU's christians are absolutely thrilled that you're not claiming to be one of them.

[Evoman]

166. To answer your question:

"Don't you find it odd that a big crowd atheists hangs out at the Religion/Theology forum? "

No, not at all.

[JHB]

179. That multiple independent observations which corroborate each other...

...indicate organization is a non sequitur.


Personally, I have no idea of what kind of crowd hangs out in R/T; I'm just following this thread from GD.

[cosmik debris]

145. Yeah, the "just fucking stupid" approach always works.

Thanks for playing.

[Buzz Clik]

150. Oh, my. Did that comment piss you off? Offend your delicate sensibilities?

I do apologize.

[cosmik debris]

153. It didn't bother me, it just proved that your best argument is that

people who disagree with you are "just fucking stupid".

The irony is that later on you recognize that the problem is yours and that you don't get it.

To me, it looks like the one who doesn't get it is the one who is just fucking stupid.

[Buzz Clik]

157. You proved nothing of the kind. You pulled a phrase from a sentence ...

... and presented it as if that was the sum total of my argument. Nice try.

You came onto this thread with guns blasting, despite having not read a word of the thread. And now you bless us with quoting me out of context accompanied by your own angry rant.

It would be best if you and I terminated our exchange at this point.

[cosmik debris]

159. Too late, you proved it, not me.

And by introducing the phrase "just fucking stupid" you opened the door.

Then you admitted that YOU are the one who doesn't get it.

So it is only fair that I should conclude that the one who doesn't get it is the one who is "just fucking stupid". How could you disagree with that?

:)

[beam me up scottie]

174. He's proved it repeatedly: "What is there to know about atheism?"

I like Ian's new word, BC's definitely not an it-getter.

[Buzz Clik]

175. Every now and then I have to hide one of my own threads.

This is one of them.

One thing I certainly "get" is I recognize a bunch of self-congratulatory assholes when I see them.

Have a wonderful day, and may Mother Earth watch over you. :eyes:

[beam me up scottie]

176. So you don't ever learn anything from the people you stereotype? Gee, what a shock.

I understand, it must be awfully embarrassing to have your flame bait hijacked by the very people you meant to slander.

[cosmik debris]

177. Yeah, the "just fucking stupid" approach always works.

Thanks for playing.

[beam me up scottie]

178. You forgot "bunch of self-congratulatory assholes ".

:rofl:

[Az]

183. Sorry Buzz

But I have read through the material here, talked to friends that went to the camp, and tried to find out what I could about it. And its not a total "There is no GOD!" fest as you seem to be making it out.

The NPR story of course is going to focus on the fact that there is some discussion about the universe not having a god in it. Thats what makes the story stand out for them. Thats the sizzle in the story. They are gonna sell it for all its worth.

[Buzz Clik]

186. Ah. So you would agree ...

... if a camp strictly focused on discussions about a universe not having a god in it, it would be strange.

An honest poster.

Thanks.

[Meshuga]

187. Why do YOU think it is strange?

Better yet, why accuse others of dishonesty when they don't find it strange? Why is that necessary?

Parents might want to send their kids to such camps as reinforcement since, in their day-to-day, kids might be surrounded by Christians spreading the word. If the parents are atheists, and they are imposed Christianity from outside world, it is perfectly fine for them to send kids to camps to reinforce their values and counter the outside pressure.

I am Jewish and I send my kid to Jewish camp to escape from the same kind of pressure. I would understand your complaint and discomfort with the atheist/agnostic camp if they were training missionaries or going out to recruit believers to become atheists. But that is not the case.

[Buzz Clik]

188. I'll ignore the tangents and simply answer your relevant questions.

1) I gave my reasons for thinking the camp is strange multiple times. You can find them easily in this thread.

2) I understand the desire to avoid sending kids to a camp that emphasizes Christianity. So, why not look for or establish a camp with no discussion of God? That would be a trivial exercise. For every agnostic I know, the uncertainty about the existence of God is not an active, mind-dominating philosophy. It's the absence of religion. To create programs, write books, and to have support groups for the single purpose of sharing one's non-belief is strangely parallel to the creation of a new religion based on not having a religion. If I want my kid to avoid religion or religious discussions, I don't talk about religion and I school the kid on how to avoid such discourse.

You know, I understand quite well why people with a common thread would seek like-minded people. A Jewish camp is totally logical. By extreme extrapolation (and the weight of the ugly responses on this thread), I am also beginning to realize that some atheists and agnostics want to gather together; it's not for me, but I suppose there is some emotional need that requires attention on their part.

Ain't it a touch ironic that I have been pounded from top to bottom on this thread for not understanding the need for such a camp, but the number of respondents who even attempt to understand my wonder at it all can be counted on one hand?

"Tolerate my mindset because your way of thinking is insane." gawd

[Meshuga]

192. I don't think they are tangents

You are accusing people of being dishonest for not finding these camps to be strange. But the truth is that you just show that you are unable to put yourself in other people's shoes if you make such an accusation. Even if you are an atheist or an agnostic or a believer, you don't seem to be able to put yourself in other people's shoes.

Atheist parents can send their kids to a camp where religion, belief, and lack of belief is not even brought up. That's fine. But there are parents who have the rights to send their kids to a camp that reinforces values necessary to protect their kids from outside influences brought by the majority.

We live in a society that, for example, actually debates whether creation science should be part of public school curriculum. How can you not expect reaction from that? How can you not react when a strong imposing force tries target your kids to teach them beliefs that you find harmful or stupid at the very least?

As long as our media and society give equal play to religion when explaining objective truths there will be a reaction because responsible parents will reject what they see as wrong belief and do what it takes to protect their kids from the kind of thinking they find harmful.

Trying to define this as a religion is just a way of mocking the people who reject this imposing irrational force that they are forced to swallow. And it does not help in anything.

[Meshuga]

184. What is wrong with teaching your kids your own values...

...and your own lack of beliefs? Wouldn't you be scared that your kids might be listening to some fundies at school and might turn to be religious fanatics themselves? It happens and it would be dangerous not to teach your kids to question and to think critically. It would be one thing if parents were sending kids to these camps you mention for them to become missionaries like some Christians do with their "Jesus camps." But that's not the case. So I don't see anything bizarre except for your reaction to the existence of atheist and agnostic camps. Why does it bother you so much?

[Buzz Clik]

190. It's the camp I find strange, not the agnosticism or atheism.

And sending a kid to a camp to learn to think critically (which is code for developing a skepticism about religion) is cruel. No child is in a position to develop any rational opinion about religion with such limited life experiences.

For the love of Athena, let them be children.

[Goblinmonger]

191. Let me get this straight...

you don't think that kids should be taught to think critically? Or is it just that they shouldn't think critically about religion? Can they think critically about other things? What if I teach them to think critically and then, on their own, they start to think critically about religion; how do I then stop them from doing that?

When, exactly, can we start teaching "kids" to think critically?

[Meshuga]

193. I know you are not saying that agnosticism or atheism is strange

As I stated: I find your reaction to the existence of these camps bizarre.

You have to understand it is hard enough being a minority in a smothering society where outside forces have influence on your kids. So a camp like this to reinforce these values is understandable. I find it really strange that you cannot see that.

Like AZ said, you write as if all that is done in these camps is the teaching of skepticism. But the impression I have is that kids are there mostly to have fun.

You can see that by visiting one camp's website: http://ohio.camp-quest.org/index.php?content=pictures&year=2008#pictures

It appears to me that these kids have fun and are allowed to be kids.

[semillama]

200. I've actually talked to a kid who attended Camp Quest

She said it was "awesome!" (if anyone saw the article from the Columbus Dispatch about the Atheists' Day Out De-baptism, the girl in the picture is the one I am talking about).

She also appeared to be a well-loved, well-adjusted, happy, and self-confident individual. I wish I had a Camp Quest when I was growing up - it sounds great.

[Corey]

195. No

Most of the world is quite Secular and they find it humorous that we in the USA spend so much time focusing on it.

[varkam]

197. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[SidDithers]

198. Exactly...

Most of the rest of the world is laughing at the US and their obsession with Gawd.

Sid

[Random_Australian]

196. And if there were a bus stop after school were christian kids could talk about their religion, that

would be evangelism too, right?

Or maybe not.

[BurtWorm]

199. Free discussion is evangelism?

That's a unique definition.