I am NOT "saved" nor do I want to be.

[Withywindle]

This is my single biggest issue with religions in the Abrahamic family: if I am supposed to be a Child of God, walking the footsteps of Christ/Muhammed/other great teachers...

exactly WHY should I accept the doctrine of Hell? Of limited, finite beings (as we all are) being tortured eternally for finite sins?

Where, in Western religion, is there an analog to the concept of the Bodhisattva: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhisattva,

who willingly defers his/her own entrance to Nirvana/Paradise until all other sentient beings have evolved to be able to make that crossing?

I don't believe in schadenfreude on the eternal level, and I cannot possibly take any joy in Heaven if I know there is **any** being in Hell.


But I guess I wouldn't be saved anyway, because I don't have enough contempt for people who don't guess "correctly" in the spiritual Jeopardy game.

I'm not an atheist. I do believe in a life beyond this one. If, for me, that's Hell, I accept that--better a Hell that's honest than a Heaven that's a lie.

[Cleita]

1. Of course you are saved....

from them. You have refused to give into any doctrine of fear. Congratulations.

[Withywindle]

4. Thank you. I admit I do believe I am "saved"

from the delusion that there is anything I need to be "saved" from, spiritually speaking. I believe I was born here because I belong here, and whatever the Divine Consciousness might be, if it exists at all, it's a part of all living things on all living worlds, so I can't help but be part of it.

Obviously I'd like some wise guidance against causing harm to myself or others because of tendencies I haven't thought through well, but "sin"? Nah.

I've just never heard of a being that's ever existed in this world that deserves torment forever - not even Hitler, dude. Is there a proper forum in the Xtian world for me to be a conscientious objector to the whole frakkin' system?

[Warpy]

18. I love having people demand to know if I'm saved

because even a bad Buddhist can reply, "No, I'm recycled," and make a clean getaway while they're trying to process it.

The concept of being "saved" at some point is one of the most pernicious in the Baptist faith, that one has a ticket punched for heaven no matter what kind of a shit that one is on earth.

Being given carte blanche to sin as much as possible without consequence is never a great idea.

Whenever somebody boasts that they've been "saved," I check to make sure they haven't stolen my wallet yet and bolt for an exit.

[conscious evolution]

39. Jesus saves

Buddha invests.
That one gives me a good headstart towards the exit.
Then there is the born again one
"Of course I have been born again.and again.And again.And again.One of these days I'll get it right."

[Kutjara]

2. Modern Christianity, particularly in its more extreme variants,...

...is focused on "judgement." Everyone is being judged by God at all times. A list of "sins" and "virtues" is being cataloged that will, come "Judgement Day," be tallied to determine the "Celestial Credit Score" of every living being. God is watching, and He's taking notes. It is a doctrine of control in this world, not "salvation" in the next. Love, forgiveness, motes and beams in eye? That's for suckers. Measuring up to the mark and beating the other guy to the head of the line at the Pearly Gates, that's what the modern, get-ahead Christian is all about!

Of course, all this crap is just so much hooey, cooked up by those who want the dispossessed of the world to view their own lives as some sort of extended performance appraisal. It is ritualized self-abnegation, focused on creating and maintaining a drone class of meek workers who will inherit some greeting-card-style paradise on the other side of death.

Buddhism, when stripped of the superstitious baggage it inherited from Hinduism, is about enlightenment. It is a doctrine aimed at freeing the mind, not enslaving it. There is no "heaven" or "ultimate reward," no big payoff when the final whistle blows. Nirvana is a state of being in this world, not in the next. It is simply a full awareness of the world, and a complete appreciation of one's own place in it. Judgement and punishment have no role to play, because the very act of judging is itself unenlightened. The ultimate goal of Buddhism is the end of suffering. How can one end suffering if one willingly inflicts it on another? The very act of judging hinders one's own quest for enlightenment.

Of course, one can just as easily be enlightened and evil as enlightened and good, but it is arguable that, since compassion is such a central component of true enlightenment, the likelihood of a Buddha being evil is fairly small.

[Withywindle]

7. That's the most objectional notion to me

The Divine Performance Review:

You, faithful servant, deserve an Eternal Raise, because You have Kissed My Divine Arse Most consistently and Eloquently.

You, who worked for me, did show up Late on Many Shifts and were Overheard Disrespecting Me in Ye Bar, therefore you are Damned For Eternity, and by the way, your Health Insurance is Terminated.

I'm just into that God-as-Boss paradigm, can't help it. But ultimately, I simply cannot bring myself to ever, at any time, in any way, think that eternal punishment of sinners can ever be justified.

[Kutjara]

10. That's it exactly.

When people thought in terms of kings and vassals, Christianity adopted that model, so God/Christ was "king" and "lord." Even today, we're using terms that, in every other walk of life, fell out of use hundreds of years ago. Roll on another hundred years, and 22nd Century Christians will be talking about God the CEO and Christ the COO (with matrix responsibility for marketing). The Virgin Mary will, of course, be in charge of PR ('cause that's woman's work).

[SheilaT]

3. I have always been singularly

unmoved by the notion that we should believe in God, you know, just in case. Which God? How to worship said God? How do we really know what prayers or rituals are most pleasing?

And like you, I have my own firm convictions about an afterlife, but it does not in any way depend on others believing as I do.

[madrchsod]

5. i`m a christian and i reject the concept of hell...

[Withywindle]

8. That makes a certain sense to me, honestly.

If Jesus came along and said, "OK, you can ignore this rule and get by but you still have to live by this one or else you're going to hell", well, nice, but not exactly radical.

A Christ who came along and said, "Hell is over if you want it" (look, bigger than Lennon!), that I'd be impressed by!

[Marie2]

14. I don't think that's the gospel

i.e., "you can ignore this rule and get by. . .you still have to live by this one. . ."

In Christian religion, you don't get saved by keeping the rules.

You get saved because you trust in Jesus, that He kept the rules for you.

You're supposed to keep the rules, commandments, what have you, out of gratitude to Him, not to earn yourself some heaven.

At least that's normal Protestant doctrine.

[Withywindle]

15. I understand that theoretically but

...as someone who emphatically rejects the idea of original sin, I'm not grateful to anyone for keeping any rules or dying for any arbitrary sins.

I'm grateful for the beauty of the world.

I'm grateful for the joy of being alive.

I'm grateful for having been born, and I hope I'll have the grace to be grateful when it's time for me to die.

But I don't believe I'm anything other than what I was meant to be: a member of my species born on Earth where I belong. If I hurt others, it's not Satan's fault, and if I help others, it's not to God's credit.

[Bad Thoughts]

16. In Catholicism, a non-Christian can find "salvation"

I'm far from an expert on the theology of Catholicism, but the question of whether one who lives a moral life can be saved has been bandied back and forth for centuries. At its most liberal interpretation, the righteous could have an afterlife in heaven. At its most conservative, all non-Catholics will go to hell. Vatican II says that other "convenants" are valid for the people who ascribe to them.

[The Night Owl]

23. Why should I be grateful to a god?

It seems to me that if a god is omnipotent, then it does everything it does effortlessly. If god does what it does effortlessly, then why would it want gratitude for what it does?

[sakabatou]

6. For me...

When I dropped all of my religious teaching, the world made more sense.

[Kat45]

9. Not all Christians accept the doctrine of hell as we all learn it.

I belong to a liberal Christian denomination (UCC, Obama's denomination), and beyond the most basic Christian beliefs, there is nothing else we are compelled/forced to believe. Hell in the gory detail that it's been presented to all of us as children is not described in the Bible as such. There is an occasional mention, nothing detailed.

I've gone to Bible study at my church and I've found that many of the folks there, including some ministers, think that perhaps everyone goes to heaven. Maybe some folks go right to heaven, while the truly bad (eg, Hitler) may eventually get there after a period of time after death when they can somehow repent. I'm using the word "heaven" loosely; nobody knows what that is and I'm just using it to mean the afterlife, with God. We believe in a loving God who would want all his children (us) with him and would be pained by any suffering eternally.

Unless I'm misunderstanding your post, it sounds like this belief of many in my church is similar to your way of thinking about an afterlife. But of course, the church I go to is not a church where people are "saved." Not all Christians/Christian churches are fundies. I'm guessing that a majority are not. (The fundies are just the loudest and have the most money.)

[Withywindle]

12. I have no problem with a concept resembling purgatory

for those who in life have done a LOT of real "evil" - caused death and suffering for many innocents, etcetera. Definitely Hitler would be in this category.

I also emphatically reject original sin: I don't think anyone needs absolution for being born whoever or whatever they are, whether that's Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist...human, dolphin, cat, or cockroach. I don't believe there is anything inherently sinful or "fallen" about this world or any being on it.

[grantcart]

11. major reason i coverted from Christianity to Buddhism

The fact is that the whole 'personal relationship' and salvation is a relatively new emphasis in Christianity.


The early church was 'called out' as a community. The suffering servant of Isaiah is the nation of Israel.

[Bad Thoughts]

13. Judaism does not have this concept of hell eom.

[Occam Bandage]

17. Good for you. I do not offer the fruit of my labor to Lord Krishna, nor do I wish to.

[Evoman]

19. My single biggest issue with religions in the Abrahamic family is that they're bullshit.

Seems pretty obvious to me that there is no heaven or hell. Every indication shows that when we die, we cease to be. There is no afterlife.

[MikeH]

20. Good for you

As for me, even if I might accept Christ and "being saved" for myself (which I did once), I was never able to accept having to have in the back of my mind the idea that OTHERS are "saved" or "unsaved", and the resulting duty to tell others about Christ motivated by the concern that if a person does not "come to Christ" in this lifetime, then that person goes to hell. That was one of my major issues when I was a Christian.

For a long time I was a more "mainstream", non-fundamentalist Christian; I went to Lutheran, Presbyterian, and Methodist churches, though sometimes I was involved in Bible study or fellowship groups in which some of the participants were more fundamentalist.

However I eventually came to the point at which I realized that being a Christian, supposedly "having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ", or being "saved" had not been of any help to me in this present, earthly life in enabling me to better deal with anything that was a source of pain, frustration, or unhappiness.

I no longer consider myself to be a Christian, and no longer consider myself to be bound by any duties or obligations that are specifically imposed by the Christian faith (as opposed to duties and obligations incumbent on any good or moral person). I am happy about no longer being a Christian, and, with all due respect to Christians who are happy with their faith, I for myself am as certain as I am of anything that it was the right and healthy thing for me to part company with the Christian faith (or at least with the external, outward practice of the Christian faith). That being the case, I might now be considered to "unsaved", according to some Christians.

In any case, I for myself do not want any "salvation" that is to be forever denied to anybody who happens to miss out on "accepting Christ" in this lifetime (for whatever reason), or who happens to guess wrong by adhering to a religion other than Christianity. And neither do I want any such "salvation" which is forever denied to an "unsaved" murder victim, but is given to the murderer if the murderer later "repents" and "accepts Christ".

[Withywindle]

32. That's a big part of it for me.

When I was 12, I went to a Christian bible camp that had an altar call (peer pressure) and yes, I was moved, and yes, I went up there and "accepted Jesus" and prayed.

But I never accepted baptism, (to this day holy water's never touched me). And I'm glad I didn't. Because it is such a farce to say, "Oh yes I love Jesus" when....

In any case, I for myself do not want any "salvation" that is to be forever denied to anybody who happens to miss out on "accepting Christ" in this lifetime (for whatever reason), or who happens to guess wrong by adhering to a religion other than Christianity. And neither do I want any such "salvation" which is forever denied to an "unsaved" murder victim, but is given to the murderer if the murderer later "repents" and "accepts Christ".

Exactly. My dad's a militant atheist who will never profess a faith he doesn't feel, and he'll die unbaptized and be proud of that. Yet he worked in law enforcement his whole working life and saved a LOT of lives of the local Christians who condemn his "ilk" in church every week.

I like the Bodhisattva concept. If it's really ETERNITY we're talking about, I won't go in until my dad, my cat, my rapist, and every single one of my kindergarten classmates whose names I don't remember are in.

[Odin2005]

21. The notion of "Original Sin" is BS. Humanity doesn't need "saving," we can take care of ourselves.

Unfortunately the notion of Original Sin and the Judeo-Christian apocalyptic eschatology still permeates the Western mindset in secularized forms that replace "God" with "The Proletariat" or "Mother Earth" or whatever.

[Taverner]

27. Original Sin is a virus of fear placed in many Christians' minds

We did nothing wrong, and if you ask me, I think the serpent was a better guy than God in Genesis.

[MikeH]

28. Here is an account of the Garden of Eden which is likely to be much truer than the official version

The author says that it is a satirical take, but to me it sounds like it contains most of the truth that is suppressed in the "official" version.

In particular, the author has it right as to who the Devil really is, and who God is.



A Deistic Satirical Take on The Garden of Eden

by David Bunch

ACT ONE


1. God created the world and two people named Adam and Eve, with whom he intended to populate the world.

2. One day, while God was not looking, the Devil came and captured Adam and Eve.

3. Adam and Eve were imprisoned in the Devil's garden called "Eden." God spoke to his eternal foe and asked for the return of his people. But the Devil, being fond of his new pets, refused.

4. God resolved to liberate Adam and Eve. Taking the shape of a serpent, God sneaked into the Devil's garden.

5. Sensing that Eve was the more insightful of the pair, God approached her.

6. God said to Eve, "If you will listen to me, I know a way for you to escape your imprisonment."

7. Eve said, "But Mr. Serpent, I do not wish to escape Eden. I like it here. This garden has everything I need."

8. God said, "You do not know what you are missing. Outside of this garden is an entire world, much larger than a mere garden. This world was created for your use. You will be much more satisfied there."

9. Eve said, "Really? I need to discuss this with Adam."

10. God said, "No, don't do that! Listen to me. In the far part of the garden there is a tree, called the Tree of Knowledge. Eat from this tree, and trick Adam into doing the same. Then you will know of the world at large, and your true mission in life."

11. And so Eve did as God asked. She and Adam ate from the Tree of Knowledge. They knew at once of the world outside and they were astonished to know how large and beautiful it was.

12. The Devil, sensing a disturbance, came into his garden to check on things. He was surprised to find that Adam and Eve had put on clothing and were building a boat out of fallen trees. He knew at once that they discovered the Tree of Knowledge.

13. The Devil was very cross. He spoke to Adam and Eve. "You think you are smart now! The world outside is not as grand as you think it is. In here - you are safe and taken care of. Out there - you must work and suffer."

14. Adam spoke. "We know of the world at large and our true potential. What you say may be true, but we do not want to live in a state of perpetual dependence. We are going to leave this garden and take our chances in the world."

15. Adam and Eve climbed into their boat and floated down river, exiting Eden.

16. The Devil began looking about his garden. By and by, he found a serpent that was not his own. The Devil spoke, "I see you now, God. I wish to confront you."

17. God resumed his natural shape. God and the Devil stood facing each other. God spoke. "Those people were my creation, and I intended to populate the world with them. You stole them from me and now I have stolen them back."

18. The Devil spoke. "You are clever God, but I am more clever still. Adam and Eve will populate the world, but once they have done this, I will find a way to turn their descendants into my servants."

19. God spoke. "You shall not succeed. I will place a part of myself inside of each new born child. This shall be called the "heart." The people of my world will never be separated from me - and they will never serve you."

20. "We shall see," said the Devil.



ACT TWO



1. Adam and Eve entered into the world. There they worked and suffered just as the Devil said they would, but even so they felt satisfaction. They knew they were doing that for which they were created.

2. Adam and Eve parented many children and these children parented many more. By and by, the world became full of the progeny of Adam and Eve. God was pleased.

3. The Devil was not pleased. The success of his rival irritated him greatly. The Devil tried repeatedly to enslave the progeny of Adam and Eve but he was not successful.

4. Thwarting the Devil with every attempt was the heart, that part of God that existed inside of every person.

5. The Devil thought to himself, "It appears that the only way I can enslave these people is if I somehow convince them to stop following their own hearts. I must be crafty."

6. The Devil hatched a crooked plan. He took the form of a spirit and spoke to an impressionable man named Abraham.

7. "Listen to me, Abraham, for I am the Lord God," said the Devil. "All of humanity is born separate from me. But I have chosen your people to be my special people. I will teach you how to reunite yourselves with me." Abraham felt a rush of pride at having been chosen and he agreed to do the Devil's bidding.

8. For the following months and years the Devil instructed Abraham and his people. He taught them elaborate and absurd rituals. This the Devil knew, would keep their minds focused on external things and thus keep them from looking inside - where the heart dwelt.

9. The people of Abraham performed their rituals with great diligence. They believed that by performing rituals, they were uniting themselves with God. When in fact, they were separating themselves from God.

10. The Devil was pleased with his success. He searched the world and found other men like Abraham. Soon the world was rife with ritualism, and divided into hostile tribes.



ACT THREE


1. God saw what the Devil was doing but he did not fret. For the heart, placed inside each person is not just the connection between God and humanity. The heart is also the source of inspiration and therefore creativity.

2. God knew that tribes who became ritualistic would also loose their ability to invent new things. These tribes would fall behind, and be conquered by other, more advanced tribes.

3. And so it came to pass that the Devil's primary weapon was ritualism and God's primary weapon was secularism. Some centuries, the Devil enjoyed the upper hand and some centuries God did.

4. The battle never did end. It goes on today much as it did in Abraham's time. The battle never will end either. It will go on and on, Ad Infinitum.

http://www.deism.com/adamandeve.htm


Personal disclosure: I consider myself to be a Deist.

Note: I posted this once before, and there was one valid criticism.

This verse: Act 3, #2: God knew that tribes who became ritualistic would also loose their ability to invent new things. These tribes would fall behind, and be conquered by other, more advanced tribes.

It should be noted that one tribe conquering or exterminating another tribe is not at all an indication that the tribe doing the conquering is necessarily more "advanced".

Even so, the above account is an improvement over the official story, and much closer to the truth, IMHO.

[The Night Owl]

22. I would go further. No one in their right mind should want any sort of eternal existence.

Provided that one is fully conscious for it, any sort of eternal existence, blissful or painful, will eventually become a kind of hell. Spending eternity in an imposed state of giddiness is not the kind of afterlife anyone should want. No thanks.

[Jim__]

24. A form of "No Exit".

Instead of "Hell is other people", "Hell is immortality".

[Odin2005]

30. Christopher Hitchens called the Judeo-Christian conception of Heaven a "Celestial North Korea". n/t.

And I agree with him. No wonder Lucifer rebelled, Heaven is a totalitarian sh*thole. The Anarchist philosopher Mikhail Bakunin called Lucifer/Satan the first rebel against tyranny.

[Silent3]

25. With enough special rules and gratuitious tinkering...

...I imagine one could devise a tolerable or even enjoyable eternity. Certainly something a whole lot better than "singing the praises of God forever". I don't believe in any such afterlife being real, of course, but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the powers of detailed wishful thinking to devise an appealing postmortem fantasy.

Nevertheless, I'd agree that eternal existence does sound to me more like a burden or a terror than a reward. On the other hand, I'm not so fond of the idea of simply ceasing to exist either, our most likely fate. (For those of you reading this who might be tempted, please spare me the bogus spin-off from conservation of matter and energy which are not really good arguments for immortality.) All possible outcomes look like they kinda suck. As long as one isn't suffering terribly, and one has reasonable hope for good times ahead, it's hard to imagine not wanting just one more moment at a given moment.

If I were somehow able to keep getting those next moments, and never had to face a definitive ending of my life, it's still hard to imagine that "I", the person that I am now, wouldn't simply fade away. How much of the limited human self that I am now, formed over mere decades, could survive billions of years? How much could survive even vaster swathes of time where billions of years seem like no more than a blink of an eye?

[Odin2005]

31. I'm planning on technology allowing me to live forever!

I welcome the Technological Singularity with open arms. :evilgrin:

[Withywindle]

33. Actually, immortality sounds pretty awesome to me.

My paradise would be, at first, just about 10,000 years left alone to read all of humanity's books. Yes, ALL of them. In all languages. EVER.

Then I'd want thousands of years in different human lifetimes--all cultures, races, genders, orientations.

Then I'd want thousands of years of lifetimes in the bodies of different Earth species.

Then I'd want thousands of years of lifetimes doing space travel.

Then I'd want thousands of years as a rock on the coast of Greenland or whatever just watching weather.

Then I'd think about being ready to move on to a greater cosmic consciousness.

[SidneyCarton]

38. Only with our current temporal perspective.

We see a world dependent on beginnings and endings. So long as we percieve all existence from this myopic perspective (which is a consequence of mortality) eternity is a terrifying prospect. Assuming however that beyond the mortal there is a heightened sense of perspective, one that can properly take in the eternal, it is possible that eternity is not so hellish as you might think. Indeed it may seem perfectly normal, and our own temporally-bound existence hellishly aberrant depending on one's sense of perception.

[Taverner]

26. I always ask "Saved from what???"

IF they say hell, I ask them to show me said hell.

If they say from my sins, I tell them I don't believe in sin.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

29. Good one!!!

Everybody should read "Letters From the Earth" by Mark Twain. Shatters all sorts of Christian illogic.

"Praying to God, purring and farting on his throne" -- Mark Twain :rofl:

[Withywindle]

34. I think that if we *especially* good in this life

we are rewarded with a lifetime as a pampered house cat.

Think of it. Fifteen years being petted and fed, doing nothing but purring and farting on his throne.

[Duke Newcombe]

35. Right, then. I'll put you down for one "no Saving".

Thanks for checking in.

Duke

[ZombieHorde]

36. .

[SidneyCarton]

37. And that is your right, even according to Abrahamic Monotheism.

It is hard to understand, even for most believers, but I will try and explain. God creates humanity and gives them freedom of choice. He sets before them his plan and allows them to choose. Inherent in this system is the right to reject God, his plan and anything attached to it. Therefore, anyone who professes to believe in God should accept your right not to. Anyone who professes to be a disciple of Christ, should respect your right to reject that same option, for the right to do so is, by our own doctrine, God-given.

Therefore, I honestly accept your right to reject that which I consider to be eternal truth. Be well and live in peace.

[Help_I_Live_In_Idaho]

40. Amen to That