March 21, 2009: Pope Decries "Evil Powers of Sorcery," Urges Angolans to Convert to RC

[stopbush]

Un. Fucking. Believable.

And, yes, I thought it was important to remind everyone which century we're living in:

LUANDA, Angola — Pope Benedict XVI appealed to the Catholics of Angola on Saturday to reach out to and convert believers in witchcraft who feel threatened by "spirits" and "evil powers" of sorcery.

On his first pilgrimage to Africa, the pope drew on the more than 500 years of Roman Catholicism in Angola, saying that Christianity was a bridge between the local peoples and the Portuguese settlers.

"In today's Angola," the pope said in a homily at Mass, "Catholics should offer the message of Christ to the many who live in the fear of spirits, of evil powers by whom they feel threatened, disoriented, even reaching the point of condemning street children and even the most elderly because _ they say _ they are sorcerers."

In Africa, some churchgoing Catholics also follow traditional animist religions and consult medicine men and diviners who are condemned by the church. People accused of sorcery or of being possessed by evil powers sometimes are killed by fearful mobs.

Benedict counseled Catholics to "live peacefully" with animists and other nonbelievers and urged Angolans to be the "new missionaries" to bring people who believe in sorcery to Christ.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/21/pope-condemns-evil-powers_n_177621.html


Now, there's a solution for you - converting people from belief in one imaginary power to belief in a different imaginary power.

[GoesTo11]

1. Benedict XVI is clearly the greatest pope of the 14th Century.

[applegrove]

2. Meanwhile you can all die of aids because the church does't believe

that condums save lives.:sarcasm:

[struggle4progress]

3. Pope Tells Clergy in Angola to Work Against Belief in Witchcraft

By BARRY BEARAK
Published: March 21, 2009

LUANDA, Angola — Pope Benedict XVI, nearing the end of his first pilgrimage to Africa, on Saturday told priests and nuns of their duty to divert their fellow Angolans from malign beliefs in witchcraft and sorcery. “Who can go to them to proclaim that Christ has triumphed over death and all those occult powers?” he asked guests at an invitation-only Mass in the blue-domed splendor of St. Paul’s Church in the capital. Morning light flooded through stained-glass windows — a depiction of Christ on the cross in the center — as the 81-year-old, German-born pontiff spoke of Angolans so fearful of evil spirits that they wrongly condemn innocent children and the elderly for being possessed by demons ... In parts of Angola, Congo and the Congo Republic, thousands of children are accused of witchcraft and are cast out of their homes, blinded or killed, according to advocates for the youngsters ... http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/22/world/africa/22pope.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss



Pope condemns violence against women
Published Saturday March 21st, 2009
By VICTOR SIMPSON
The Associated Press

LUANDA, Angola - Pope Benedict, welcomed to this sweltering capital Friday by the biggest crowds of his African pilgrimage, condemned sexual violence against women in Africa and chided those countries on the continent that have approved abortion ... "Particularly disturbing is the crushing yoke of discrimination that women and girls so often endure, not to mention the unspeakable practice of sexual violence and exploitation which causes such humiliation and trauma," Benedict told an audience of government leaders and foreign diplomats in the late afternoon ... http://dailygleaner.canadaeast.com/rss/article/610396



Pope asks Angola to use oil riches to help poor
By Barry Bearak
Published: March 21, 2009

LUANDA, Angola: Pope Benedict XVI, midway through his first trip to Africa, arrived in oil-rich Angola and admonished those enjoying the nation's newfound wealth not to ignore the justifiable demands of the poor. "The multitude of Angolans who live below the threshold of absolute poverty will not be forgotten," he said in a speech Friday, moments after getting off his airplane. "Do not disappoint their expectations!" In a second address, this one delivered hours later at the residence of President José Eduardo dos Santos, he challenged Angola and other African countries to free their people "from the scourges of greed, violence and unrest" through "modern civic democracy." He defined this civic liberation as one respectful of human rights with transparent governance, an independent judiciary, a free press, properly functioning schools and hospitals, "and — most pressing — a determination born from the conversion of hearts to excise corruption" ... http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/03/21/africa/pope.php



Papal Address to Youth at Dos Coqueiros Stadium
"The Power to Shape the Future Is Within You"

LUANDA, Angola, MARCH 21, 2009 (Zenit.org).- Here is the address Benedict XVI gave today at a meeting with youth at Dos Coqueiros Stadium in Luanda ... even in our midst, I see some of the many thousands of young Angolans who have been maimed or disabled as a result of the war and the landmines. I think of the countless tears that have been shed for the loss of your relatives and friends. It is not hard to imagine the dark clouds that still veil the horizon of your fondest hopes and dreams ... The beginning of <Jesus'> ministry was accompanied by great enthusiasm. People saw the sick healed, demons cast out, the Gospel proclaimed, but otherwise the world had not changed: the Romans remained in power and everyday life continued to be hard, despite those miracles and those beautiful words ... My dear friends, you are a seed ... Take courage! Dare to make definitive decisions, because in reality these are the only decisions which do not destroy your freedom, but guide it in the right direction, enabling you to move forward and attain something worthwhile in life. There is no doubt about it: life is worthwhile only if you take courage and are ready for adventure ... http://www.zenit.org/article-25440?l=english

[stopbush]

4. "Christ has triumphed over death and all those occult powers." - The Pope

He believes in woo-woo. Occult "powers" exist to this numbnut. This is the Pope who added 3,000 priests to perform exorcisms. Fucking exorcisms, in the 21st century.

[struggle4progress]

5. Consider examining what common ground you might have with those who do not fully share your views

I'll leave out any theological issues here, to avoid derailing the conversation

I myself do not believe that there really "is" any such thing as witchcraft. Some people do believe there "is" such a thing. Whether it is erroneous or not, their belief has consequences. Some versions of such beliefs can have very unpleasant consequences. If a person is convinced that another person has cast malicious spells, and is convinced that the supposed effects can only be undone by attacking the supposed spell-caster, then the suspect is in danger of being attacked. And in fact, innocent people suffer as a result. There is then a practical moral question: is it possible to eliminate the influence of these beliefs in witchcraft, which cause suffering? Your view is apparently that the elimination of such beliefs is acceptable only if it meets your preconceived standard, which (of course) you do not bother to define exactly, preferring merely to complain about "woo woo," a vague and undefinable term

Whether or not one believes in demons or witchcraft or exorcism (and I myself am not much inclined to believe in such things), one might still take the view that it's beneficial to encourage people who do believe in demons and witchcraft to adopt the view that demons and witchcraft do not necessarily have any power over them -- and that is, of course, an obvious intent of the remarks you scorn

Although you want to identify the pope's remarks with exorcism, those Catholic priests who practice exorcism regard it as something needed only very rarely: mostly, they take the view that people will benefit from a good listen or psychiatric help:

Archbishop appoints two exorcists
Jennifer Green, The Ottawa Citizen
Published: Saturday, April 05, 2008
... The archdiocese will not name the priests, or say how many exorcists there are for fear of a flood of phone calls. Msgr. Kevin Beach says all the men are experienced clergy with overseas experience, some in areas of the world where belief in demons is more robust than it is in North America ... Exorcists describe the ideal candidate as .. priest, who .. believes in demons, but almost never believes they have someone in their clutches ... Most important, an exorcist is a good listener who can lend a sympathetic ear, administer the sacraments, and, if necessary, nudge someone toward psychiatric help as well ... Jeffrey Grob, exorcist at the archdiocese of Chicago and a former doctoral student at Ottawa's Saint Paul University, says an exorcist in a large, ethnically diverse diocese might get 100 calls a month, mostly from women. The callers complain of bad luck, or they hear or see things they believe are evil. But those who think they are possessed usually aren't, says Father Grob ... http://www2.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=e2988ac6-b56f-4e85-841a-341ad7b523ee

Certainly, if you're actually supporting folk who go to underdeveloped villages to provide good science education and technical innovations (like electricity) that might be associated with reduced belief in the witchcraft, I'm all for it -- though I'd guess you are in reality content merely to sneer at other people's effort. But even if we thoroughly modernize the world and give everyone the benefits of science and technology world, there will be people who develop strange views about the supposed powers of their neighbors: some of these people will be lonely and need sympathy, others will have organic problems that require medical intervention, and some are simply still beyond the reach of science

[Why Syzygy]

6. "woo woo," a vague and undefinable term

:rofl:

DU dictionary: Anything deemed beneath one's own greatly evolved mental prowess;
resulting in an overwhelming, irresistible emotional reaction which requires expression of scorn and contempt

[stopbush]

7. Perhaps the chemist should consider finding common ground with the alchemist?

That would certainly help us develop new sources of fuel, for instance, or new medicines.

Maybe the astronomer should find common ground with the astrologer? That would certainly help in our efforts to land spacecraft on Mars.

So, perhaps we should try to find common ground with the Pope's policies against birth control and condoms, which help to keep the AIDS epidemic going worldwide, because we can all agree that demons exist, and if it weren't for the Catholics, who would perform exorcisms? Good thing that Father Grob thinks that most people who think they're possessed by demons "usually aren't." That gives him time to concentrate on those who truly are possessed by demons.

Or MAYBE some things are so fucking stupid and ridiculous that they need to be called for what they are. It sure would have been nice to have a few in the media pointing out that Emperor W wore no clothes.

And, BTW - we do no favors for those who "are simply still beyond the reach of science" by smiling and feigning respect for their childish beliefs, whether they're a person in a distant village or a Pope sitting on the world's largest bank account.

[struggle4progress]

8. I did not suggest you must agree with the Catholic Cuurch about everything: I suggested

that you should cultivate the habit of seeking whatever common ground is possible with people when you disagree with them

Jumbling everything together in a big smear doesn't produce clear thought. You disagree with the Pope about birth control and condoms? So do many other people, myself included: I didn't suggest you should pretend not to disagree. You disagree with the Catholic Church about the likely efficacy of exorcism? Fine: so do many other people, and again I didn't suggest you should pretend to disagree

But this thread concerns the Pope's comments on witchcraft in Africa

The OP seems to misrepresent the views of the Pope and the Catholic Church: their actual view is rather like yours, I think

The Church teaches that it is possible for us to approach the world in way, so that "witchcraft" and "demons" have no power over us. I suspect you have a similar view: where the Church teaches that one must simply believe in the Christ, I suspect you hold that one must simply believe in logic. Both views promise the possibility of an attitude towards life, where one is not controlled by the fear of "witchcraft" or "demons"

Now, I suspect that you may see a huge difference here, because you do not believe there is any such thing as "witchcraft" or "demons." But again, I do not think that view is so very different from the view of the Catholic Church: the Church teaches that "witchcraft" and "demons" are among the lies of the devil, which can keep people from leading full and meaningful lives. So, in some sense, perhaps you and the Church at least share the view that "witchcraft" and "demons" are false and inauthentic. The difference is that you may consider them false and inauthentic in the light of logic, whereas the Church will consider them false and inauthentic in the light of love

Now the difference that you may see between your view and the view of the church is this: the church will accept the possibility that in some circumstances we have exhausted our known rational options and so are unable to do more using the ordinary tools we have at our disposal. If you read the link on exorcism I posted above, you will see that the Catholic Church does not teach one should hurry to the conclusion that our ordinary tools should not be tried. In fact, the exorcist is supposed first to attempt to provide sympathetic company to the person who is suffering -- and if that is insufficient, next to seek medical opinion. I fail to see anything objectionable there: listening with sympathy to those in distress is not at all the same as "smiling and feigning respect"

Frankly, it is not at all clear to me what you would propose to do with people, who think they are tormented by demons. Do you imagine that you can simply point out the logical errors in their conceptions?If so, you don't have much experience with real people. People are stubborn in their views, however mistaken they may be, and they do not willingly seek help from anyone who thinks them "fucking stupid and ridiculous" or who treats their distress merely as evidence of "childish beliefs"

[stopbush]

12. Hopefully, the day will come when churches have no power over us as well as witchcraft.

We won't believe in fantasies like the devil, demons, witchcraft, people rising from the dead and an afterlife. If we reach the point where we feel we have "exhausted our known rational options," then it's time to think harder along rational lines. My experience with "real people" is that many of them - especially the religious - continue with childish beliefs because they remain willingly and stubbornly unaware of rational options that have been around for some time. Willing and practiced ignorance of non-supernatural explanations for the natural world is not only the stock-in-trade of those who are afraid to have the belief in the supernatural challenged, it is an ignorance that is encouraged by all religions, be it voodoo or Roman Catholicism.

The Roman Catholic Church as personified in the current Pope is a great example of the compartmentalization that the religious mind must practice on a daily basis. On the one hand, the RCC has since 1966 said that Darwin's evolutionary theory is sound, even if their most recent statements (3/10/9) get into a sidebar over whether or not evolution disproves the existence of god (a response to a misinterpretation of a statement by Dawkins, BTW). On the other hand, the Vatican says that the Biblical account of creation doesn't conflict with evolutionary science, a view one can hold only by disregarding the meaning of words and reading the Biblical account as a metaphoric story viewed through a contemporary and secularly influenced world view. Worse, while I imagine we are supposed to cheer the Vatican for not challenging the established science of evolutionary theory (as if the Vatican's opinion on the matter would change or confirm the science), we are cautioned to not criticize the Vatican for promoting a belief in demons and demon possession.

Final BTW - what is that "light of love" the Church considers authentic? The mythical life of Jesus, the mythical miracles he never performed, the death he didn't suffer, the resurrection that didn't occur, the promise of an eternity in servitude? The light of logic - history, archaeology, geology, geography, the long history of archetypical gods who predated and provided a template for Jesus - says that the Jesus light exists only in the minds of some men, created by them and nurtured by them over the centuries. The light of which the RCC speaks has no more basis in reality than does a belief in Anubis or Horace. Unless you're willing to say that we must respect belief in ALL and any gods as a viable explanation for things "beyond rational options," your claim rings hollow, wouldn't you say?

[HamdenRice]

11. Well argued and interesting. One thing I would differ on from my experience in Africa

When you say, "I myself do not believe that there really "is" any such thing as witchcraft," I assume you mean that you don't believe that there is witchcraft that actually does what it says it does or that is effective.

But there are many, many people in Africa who not only believe there is witchcraft, but who practice it. And that's different from animism or traditional religion.

To simplify a lot of anthropology, there has always been some form of traditional religion in sub-Saharan Africa. Although it varies a great deal from place to place, some of the commonalities are a belief in a supreme god who created the world (but who is usually a distant figure) and also a belief in other gods and spirits. Most African religion has some form of possession of humans by gods or spirits. Most African religions teach values and encourage moral behavior. Almost all have some form of veneration of ancestors, as well as a concern to keep the spirits of dead ancestors happy so that bad things don't happen. Most also had a whole range of practices of manipulating physical things or objects in the real world in order to accomplish things in the supernatural world and vice versa, and there are experts in these practices. This is sometimes wrongly referred to as witchcraft.

At the same time, however, most cultures also had practitioners who use supernatural techniques to purposely do harm to others.

The terms in English that we use to describe the first kind of practitioner is "witch doctor" or less pejoratively, "doctor," "diviners," "medicine men," or "traditional healers". The terms in English that we, and Africans themselves use, to describe the second kind of practitioner is "witch."

These practitioners are often opposed in their own cultures, and there are different terms for them. The doctor's practice is public, open, respected and aligned with traditional authorities and social order. The witch's practice is secret, often practiced at night and usually in some sense subversive of social order. Because the work of witches is secretive, people who are not witches are frequently falsely accused of being witches.

I've met several people who consider themselves "doctors" (Tswana: ngaka). The sorts of things they remember doing back when their services were more in demand included putting "medicine" on fields to prevent flocks of birds from coming and eating the crops.

The collapse of many traditional societies and belief systems in sub-Saharan Africa has I think caused several traditional "religions" to collapse into what I think is fair to call "superstition." Again that's kind of loaded, but to give you an example, Sol Plaatje (the founder of the African National Congress and a great writer and translator) recorded and translated hundreds of pages of "praise poems" and other sacred oral texts of the Sotho Tswana. But most of that religious text and tradition has been lost as a living oral tradition in South Africa, and people have a hodge podge of left over practices. Without an overarching "story" and oral text, the practices, poorly passed down, seem more like superstition than traditional religion.

In that setting, and with a lot of political upheaval, there is more "witchcraft" and superstition, and a lot less traditional religion.

In some places, the indigenous belief system or religion is much more in tact -- like in Yoruba land in Nigeria, or among the Dogon in Mali.

Unscrupulous political leaders manipulate what's left of the indigenous belief system, often bolstering witchcraft at the expense of broader belief systems.

For example, there is little doubt that the dictator of Liberia, Samuel Doe, practiced witchcraft, including the deliberate doing of evil to others in order to advance his political goals. Some of the "medicine" he used included body parts, so murder became a widespread part of his tool kit. When Liberia collapsed into civil war between various vicious warlords, most of them used witchcraft as well, and most of the disorganized, impoverished, illiterate and often child soldiers, used witchcraft as well. I'm not saying that their witchcraft worked, but people certainly believed it was being done and that it worked, and just the things that had to be done to practice it (as opposed to the intended evil consequences of the practice), were themselves horrific. In other words, if I want someone to go blind, or be defeated in battle, or die a horrible death from disease by practicing witchcraft, I might not actually have the supernatural powers to accomplish that, but if I have to kill some other person to get his liver to make my medicine, then the witchcraft has nevertheless accomplished something evil and people will be appropriately afraid of me.

So there is a huge fear of witchcraft in Africa, which is an actual practice. I think that's what the Pope is referring to, however clumsily. Many Africans at the village level and in the impoverished parts of the cities see Christianity as a way of fighting witchcraft.

[struggle4progress]

13. People's beliefs have real consequences, whether or not their beliefs

reflect "reality" -- this seems to be the essential content of an old and famous sociological maxim

If a neighbor of mine became convinced that her children were possessed by Satan, and that they needed to be beaten severely on their heads with a baseball bat to drive the devil out, my intellectual attitude would be complicated. I won't believe her children were possessed by Satan, because in a sense I do not believe in Satan: I'm an urban American, living in a world of constant automobile noise and boobtube images, where one flips the lights on or off and adjusts the room temperature. On the other hand, if she considered Satan real enough to beat her children with a bat, then in some sense Satan has really entered the world -- whether or not Satan "really exists." Similarly, if I say I do not think there really "is" any such thing as witchcraft, my meaning is complicated: non-existent phantasms might really be able injure people

I suppose your remarks about "witchcraft" suggest a variety of ways the idea has been used. There is, for example, the notion of obtaining control over the world by some "appropriate" but mysterious action -- and Charles Saunders Pierce regarded such magical thinking as an indispensable cultural prerequisite for later development of more scientific ideas. There are also forms of cultural shorthand (like the incantation Gesundheit!). Sometimes power struggles are waged through accusations of witchcraft or superstition. It's not really my intent to sneer in any general way at traditional beliefs or practices of other people in other places. Lots of people have ways of expressing themselves and their insights about the world in ways I don't understand

[saltpoint]

9. Don't use condoms and don't consort with witches.

Check.

[Marrah_G]

10. I truly despise this man

I really hope he dies sooner, rather then later, so he can stop causing so much harm to the world.

People like him, leaders like him, are why my faith can disappear from view in an instant.

Mistakes were learned from.

[skepticscott]

16. Take care in what you wish for

It's tempting to assume that his successor would be more enlightened, but that is by no means certain. One would have thought that with the world we live in today, John Paul II (a somewhat enlightened man, despite still being hidebound by Catholic orthodoxy) would have been succeeded by someone of similar awareness, but it did not turn out that way. If anything, the core hierarchy of the Catholic Church seems to be getting more conservative and defensive of medieval ways of thinking.

[Sylvian Beehive]

14. Condoms

(I made this pic today. Found nowhere else to post it, so I am sneaking it in here..)

[moggie]

15. This is made entirely of win and awesome

It needs to be on T-shirts and posters!