Christianity is plummeting in America,

[mzteris]

while the number of non-believers is skyrocketing.

A shocking new study of Americans’ religious beliefs shows the beginnings of a major realignment in Americans’ relationship with God. The American Religious Identification Survey (ARIS) reveals that Protestants now represent half of all Americans, down almost 20 percent in the last twenty years. In the coming months, America will become a minority Protestant nation for the first time since the pilgrims.

The number of people who claim no religious affiliation, meanwhile, has doubled since 1990 to fifteen percent, its highest point in history. Non-believers now represent the third-highest group of Americans, after Catholics and Baptists.

Other headlines:

1) The number of Christians has declined 12% since 1990, and is now 76%, the lowest percentage in American history.

2) The growth of non-believers has come largely from men. Twenty percent of men express no religious affiliation; 12% of women.

3) Young people are fleeing faith. Nearly a quarter of Americans in their 20’s profess no organized religion.

4) But these non-believers are not particularly atheist. That number hasn’t budged and stands at less than 1 percent. (Agnostics are similarly less than 1 percent.) Instead, these individuals have a belief in God but no interest in organized religion, or they believe in a personal God but not in a formal faith tradition.


- MORE -

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2009/09/25/bruce-feiler-christians-americans-gone/



(Sorry for the source, but that's where the headline link to the article took me. . . )

[FiveGoodMen]

1. Atheists and Agnostics combined are less than 2%?

Really?

[mzteris]

5. I think it's higher, too.

I also think a lot of people aren't comfortable yet in saying that they are.

I know I don't believe a damn thing, yet have a hard time SAYING that I'm an "atheist" - I usually wimp out and say I'm an agnostic with atheist leanings.

I reckon it's caused by being raised in the Southern Baptist Church and living nearly all of my life in a religion dominated society/neighborhood.

[jgraz]

13. Yep. If you count "non-believers" as atheists, the number's around 16%.

[Chulanowa]

28. A lot of people don't self-identify as agnostic

"I believe" and "I don't believe" are easy enough to state, but "I'm not certain if I can believe" is harder for people to admit.

[girl gone mad]

29. I don't believe it, either.

In college, almost all of my friends were atheists or agnostics. I remember being in a medium sized class one day, chatting with others as we waited on the professor. The subject of religion came up and all but 2 students in the room were non-believers.

[Taverner]

2. YAY!!!!!

And yeah!

[madamesilverspurs]

15. We could use more Christianity, and fewer "christians."

Unfortunately, those who co-opted the name, starting a couple millenia ago, to give credibility to their unchristian ambitions have rendered the thing unpalatable.

[Taverner]

18. Goes back to the Phairisees...

[ZombieHorde]

20. More Christianity? No thanks. nt

[Manifestor_of_Light]

42. No, we do not need more xtianity.

Many people think Jesus was all about sweetness and goodness. He wasn't.

There are large chunks of the NT that are all about Jesus kicking ass and generally being the same sort of vindictive bastard that Big Daddy in the OT is.

go to www.skepticsannotatedbible.com for evidence.

A sample from the Gospel of Matthew:
# Those who bear bad fruit will be cut down and burned "with unquenchable fire." 3:10, 12

# Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn't the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. 5:17

# Jesus recommends that to avoid sin we cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes. This advice is given immediately after he says that anyone who looks with lust at any women commits adultery. 5:29-30

# Jesus says that most people will go to hell. 7:13-14

# Those who fail to bear "good fruit" will be "hewn down, and cast into the fire." 7:19

# "The children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 8:12

# Jesus tells a man who had just lost his father: "Let the dead bury the dead." 8:21

# Jesus sends some devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the waters below. 8:32

# Cities that neither "receive" the disciples nor "hear" their words will be destroyed by God. It will be worse for them than for Sodom and Gomorrah. And you know what God supposedly did to those poor folks (see Gen.19:24). 10:14-15

# Families will be torn apart because of Jesus (this is one of the few "prophecies" in the Bible that has actually come true). "Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." 10:21

# Jesus says that we should fear God who is willing and "able to destroy both soul and body in hell." 10:28

# Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has "come not to send peace, but a sword." 10:34-36

# Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn't care for his preaching. 11:20-24

# Jesus will send his angels to gather up "all that offend" and they "shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." 13:41-42, 50

# Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: "He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death." (See Ex.21:15, Lev.20:9, Dt.21:18-21) So, does Jesus think that children who curse their parents should be killed? It sure sounds like it. 15:4-7

# Jesus advises his followers to mutilate themselves by cutting off their hands and plucking out their eyes. He says it's better to be "maimed" than to suffer "everlasting fire." 18:8-9

# "And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors." 18:34

# In the parable of the marriage feast, the king sends his servants to gather everyone they can find, both bad and good, to come to the wedding feast. One guest didn't have on his wedding garment, so the king tied him up and "cast him into the outer darkness" where "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 22:12-13

# Jesus had no problem with the idea of drowning everyone on earth in the flood. It'll be just like that when he returns. 24:37

# God will come when people least expect him and then he'll "cut them asunder." And "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 24:50-51

# The servant who kept and returned his master's talent was cast into the "outer darkness" where there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth." 25:30

# Jesus tells us what he has planned for those that he dislikes. They will be cast into an "everlasting fire." 25:41

# Jesus says the damned will be tormented forever. 25:46

==========End of quote from Matthew. But hey, that is only TWENTY-THREE examples of cruelty and vindictiveness by God and or Jesus in the FIRST book of the NT!!!




Now, if they kept the Sermon on the Mount, and "Judge not, lest ye be judged", and "As you did it unto the least of them, so also you did it unto Me", now that would truly be a Jesus about doing the right thing.

But they don't.

[Turbineguy]

3. God needs to do something

Turn some of these crazy fundie Pastors into smoking pieces of pork rind with lightning or something.

[3waygeek]

11. Like anyone would notice the difference n/t

[Festivito]

17. It's been worse before, it will be worse again. /nt

[dodger501]

24. Just like the Bishop in Caddyshack

[get the red out]

4. What type of Christians?

Nice Christians or hate-mongering, witch-hunting, Sarah Palin Christians? If we are loosing just the good guys, that might not be positive.

[mzteris]

7. I think the hate-mongering kind

play a large role in turning people off of religion. Which, imo, is a good thing in the long run.

[get the red out]

9. I hope they decline

They are not into democracy in the least.

[woodsprite]

14. Unfortunately, I think it's just the good guys.

I know around here (northern Delaware), I am constantly surprised at how few linear feet there are between houses of worship. BUT mostly the fundy, evangelical ones are the mega churches buying up land and undergoing new construction. My little liberal Presby church is over 350 yrs old, and is struggling to hold steady at 180 members. :(

[get the red out]

16. That's not good

We really do need the good guys, people that want a Christian Church need some non-hate alternatives. If all American Christianity becomes a hate-fest we will have an even more frightening battle on our hands for the future of this country.

[DeSwiss]

6. I didn't click on the link.....

...because, well it's Faux and I don't go there. Anyway, did it say how we can help it plummet faster? Is there a toll-free number to call? I really, really want to help.

[mzteris]

10. I understand . . .

I nearly didn't, but the title was too intriguing.

No, no toll-free number. Sorry. :(

The other day someone rang my doorbell handing out flyers to some idiotic "revival" (even when I was 'believer' it would have been waaaaaaay too 'out there'!) - I looked at it and just started laughing. The look on those two guys' faces was priceless.

Sometimes it's really hard not to laugh when people I know start in on the "god thing". I dunno, maybe I should. The same way I'd laugh if they said they still believed in Santa Claus.

[DeSwiss]

19. Well, I just thought I'd ask.....

...but don't forget that tomorrow in http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x220018">National Blaspheme Day!!!! Yay!!!!

[jgraz]

12. You want it to plummet faster? Organize another teabag rally

Actually seeing what American Christianity has become will turn off any thinking human.

[DeSwiss]

22. The operative words here being "thinking human."

Which is a quality I don't take for granted actually exists within everyone anymore as I once did. Especially since the Teabaggers showed up.


Yes sir, buddy. This is "are"
country all right. {Face-palms}




on edit: spelling

[charlie]

23. Here are the money quotes for you

The American Religious Identification Survey (ARIS) reveals that Protestants now represent half of all Americans, down almost 20 percent in the last twenty years. In the coming months, America will become a minority Protestant nation for the first time since the pilgrims.

...

The number of Christians has declined 12% since 1990, and is now 76%, the lowest percentage in American history.

The headline smelled like sensationalism, but these really are a sea change, both historic developments.

[DeSwiss]

26. Yeah, and worst of all its' coming from FAUX!

Still, it makes my heart beat a little faster just seeing those words strung together that way. But I've become a believer in miracles now. Not the religious kind, but I never thought I'd live to see a black President of the U.S.

- Now I think, anything's possible!!!!

[charlie]

30. I'm feeling the stirrings of faith myself

...but I never thought I'd live to see a black President of the U.S.

That happened FAST, didn't it? If you'd asked me anytime before McCain picked the Moose Chick, I'd say fat chance, Americans will keep on talking one way and voting another. And after, doubt still gave me the nervous shits.

I like miracles. I think I'll learn to buh-leeeve. YOU HEAR THAT NO-DADDY? MORE MIRACLES!

[mike_c]

8. good riddance...

...and I don't have any confidence in their numbers for atheists and agnostics. Virtually everyone I know is an atheist (of course, I might be atypical since I'm a biologist and university prof).

[Bonhomme Richard]

21. Not fast enough for me.

And I consider myself a Christian.

[Omar4Dems]

25. This is from Fox News. IOW, they're sounding the alarm

Watch for a backlash, coming to a community near you! :(

[MineralMan]

27. And the fundies have brought this on themselves,

with their posturing, nannying, and name-calling. Sorry, guys, but you're driving people away from Christianity. There's a verse about putting stumbling blocks in the way of people. Read it.

Oopsie!

[Crosseyed Jesus]

31. Thank Elvis!

It's heartening to see that some Americans are coming out of their caves. The only way this nation along with this planet can progress is to discard its mythological, magical, voodoo, baggage by the wayside.
If the trend continues there might, just be a chance that America and the planet will survive the future.

[kwassa]

32. um, this story came out six months ago. It was discussed on DU back then.

here is a link to the report:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/13090932/Final-ARIS-Report-3-6

edit to add:

Seven threads in the March/April time frame in R&T talk about this survey, when I did a search for it.

[mzteris]

37. sorry -

we "old farts" sometimes forget these things.

And I didn't think to search back SIX MONTHS AGO! Please forgive me.

Besides, based on the response, evidently a number of us missed "that" discussion.

To top it off, it was just in the news so. I guess it took that long for the MSM to pick it up?

[Sapphocrat]

33. Thank Bloody God.

Now, if the remaining Talibornagains would just hurry the fuck up and get Raptured (or Rapture themselves -- Dr. Kevorkian, where are you?), the rest of us could live out our remaining years with some precious peace.

P.S. I get dibs on Joel Osteen's house.

[troubledamerican]

34. FOX News reports this to inflame their base.

[clear eye]

35. Please don't confuse no affiliation w/ a church w/ atheism

Fox, as usual, is trying to alarm Christians by making them feel like a beleaguered minority. Keeps everyone watching them. It's bunk.

I can't count the number of conversations I've had w/ people like coworkers, etc. who say they no longer go to church, but they still believe. Some of it's financial. They don't want to be embarrassed that they can't afford to put into the plate or make their previous generous donations to charity or church improvement funds. Please put your mind at ease regarding belief in the U.S.

[charlie]

36. I guess you haven't noticed

This thread is stuffed with people at ease with it.

If, by at ease, you mean doing exultant backflips.

[mzteris]

38. "putting my mind at ease"

would be eliminating religion.

"Magical thinking" inhibits logical and critical thinking. True morality is inhibited by the "carrot/stick" of heaven/hell instead of people behaving morally because it's the RIGHT thing to do.

[Sal316]

39. "Eliminating religion?" Really?

Wow.

The absolute disdain for people of faith, even liberal people of faith, displayed is, quite honestly, disgusting.

It's bigotry and ignorance all wrapped up in some pseudointellectual babble.

"Magical thinking inhibits logic?" Man, how I love when people pull out the old "believers are idiots" card. That's about as intellectual as "Muslims are terrorists" or "Italians are greasy morons" or whatever intellectually juvenile stereotype you want to pull out.

Dress it up with all the rationalizations, all the "well they push it on me", or whatever you want to use to justify your position....

...in reality, it's this sort of attitude that's just the opposite side of the same coin as RW Fundamentalist idiocy.

Congratulations, you're just like those you condemn.... same ignorant bigotry, different clique.

[mzteris]

40. not bigotry, hon

reality.

Try it sometime.

[Sal316]

41. Wow...how dismissive.

Sad that you can't see you're just like those you condemn.

In order to see your bigotry, you'd have to get past ignorance first.

[mzteris]

43. ignorance is believing

in magical beings.

[Sal316]

44. Well then....

I guess there's no use discussing this any further with you.

You want to dismiss people of faith as being ignorant... go right ahead.... piss off, or more accurately, piss on liberal believers.

Hope you enjoy the trip to irrelevance with the RW fundies, the homophobes, the racists, and all the other intolerant ignorant bigot groups.

The adults here will put aside our differences and work to make the world a better place.

[mzteris]

45. guess I struck a nerve, huh?

:rofl:

I know how you feel. Really.

I used to be where you are. I was "born and raised" and spent way more than half of my life in the church (every Sunday for 19 years, btw) - DESPITE all the questions I had from age 6 (where are the dinosaurs in the Bible, Daddy?) to a high school paper on the "Christian Myth" whereby I was exploring all of the attributes of the Christian religion that came from mythology. It didn't mean I didn't BELIEVE, just that I really thought a lot of the "trappings" were irrelevent. Heck - I was nearly excommunicated! but they don't do that in the Southern Baptist Church. But boy did I get grilled and prayed for and taught and etc. . . .

I fell away for a few years as a young adult until I got married and then pregnant. I left the SBC and became Mthodist because the SBC'ers were such a misogynistic lot. I stayed and stayed and stayed. I was very active in the Church. I was still a "Believer" but I did have some "strange ideas" - most of which I kept to myself. The minister was a crazy liberal Aussie with whom I could discuss such things. In his new members class we all read "The Christian Agnostic" - if that tells you anything.

Well, then my son was born. And when he was five, the SS teachers started complaining that he was "confusing" the other kids (and, I suspect, them). They didn't want him asking "those kinds of questions" and making observations. Then there was the day he came home and said, "I don't believe it, Mom. It makes NO sense. I mean how could . . . (and on and on about the ark.) I went through the whole, it's just a story blah blah blah. . . but the real damage was done. He started picking apart every single thing.

In the meantime, I had become a foster mom to an African American baby. We moved to a new, small town in the rural south. The minister basically told me he thought I'd be happier in a "different church" after eyeing the baby in my arms - and after our "discussion" on gays and marriage and gays serving in the church. He was very uncomfortable with that. My entire "liberal attitude", he said, wasn't really shared by the members of "his" church, etc.

So we stopped going. There was no other Methodist church there. I sure as hell wasn't going to a Baptist one. I toyed with the idea of other denominations, but never got around to going, because by that time I had three OTHER foster boys under the age of 7, including the one I already had - 6 mos - and my own 5 yo.

And that five year old. . . kept questioning and dissecting.

And time passed. The three boys left and another one came and left. We adopted the baby who was no longer a baby. My older son was proving to be as much of a thorn in traditional public school as he had been in Sunday school - asking too many questions and wanting too many answers which the teachers didn't have the time nor the inclination to answer. Anyway, we decided to homeschool.

During this time I was still a "Believer", just not attending a church. And granted my beliefs were a little further afield than most, but still, I believed.

When my son was nine we were studying Ancient China. He was reading about the philosophy/religions of China and came running in - Mom! Mom! this is it, this is what I believe. We established, over time, that what he believed was the PHILOSOPHY, not the RELIGION. (and yeah, we're all vegetarians now).

Okay, so - you're asking yourself so what does this have to do with anything.

Well, given my own doubts from a young age - squelched and ignored and justified and explained and squished around to "sorta" mesh with traditional beliefs - and then the complete rejection by my son who could - and still can - easily dismantle just about any argument you want to mount about "god". So that, over time - I realized, it really was just a lot of "wishful thinking".

The "Christian religion" is a complete fabrication of Paul. Maybe there was some GUY named Jesus who was a pretty good guy, but all the rest? Made up. Look up the mythology of Tarsus.

The "Jewish religion" - based on mythology that predated the existence of the Hebrews. The story of "moses in the basket", the flood, the serpent, etc . . . try reading Sumerian mythology.

People wanted explanations for things they didn't understand. Fine. Now we have science. We understand why there's a big boom when it rains.

People want a purpose. Why are they here. where did they come from. where are they going when they die. They don't want to just "disappear" of course.

People like being able to say they're "blessed" when good things happen (because it means THEY're good.) People like to say the devil attacked them when anything BAD happens (because it means THEY're so good with god that the devil attacks them.) People definitely don't want to take responsibility for the BAD things that happen.

People like to have an explanation - any explanation - for things they don't understand. So they attribute things to "god".

People like to have that authoritarian power in their lives. They don't have to think. They don't have to decide. they just have to do what they're told.

"Morality". Which is it? :
Doing things or not doing things because you want to "go to heaven" or don't want to "go to hell"; or
Doing things or not doing things because you know and understand that it's the RIGHT thing to do regardless of any "reward/punishment".

Be all that as it may. . . Just really really think about it for once. QUESTION those assumptions and beliefs. Analyze them. I mean, really, you know deep down that it's an impossibility to even exist. That's why religion hammers on FAITH so much. Don't question god or you're going to hell! (Sounds a lot like, ignore the man behind the curtain, don't you think?)

I'm sorry if you're offended, but I happen to believe that "believing" truly is ignorant. It really is like believing in Santa Claus. There is no "GOD" "Jesus" "Mohammad" - I mean - you don't believe there however many virgins waiting for the Muslim - but THEY do. What makes YOUR belief "right" and theirs "fantasy", eh? Think about it. It's ALL FANTASY! There is no "heaven". No Pearly Gates, no golden streets, no angels with wings and harps. There is no "old guy" up there who's omniscient. He didn't impregnate some young virgin and his "son" didn't go around poofing miracles.

Fairys. Elves. Unicorns. Brownies. Santa. The Easter bunny. The Tooth Fairy. gods.

What do they all have in commmon?

They're invisible. They can do magic things. Some of them know if you're "bad or good" and reward or punish you accordingly.

Look, it's like this: "When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me."

It's time to grow up. Really.

[clear eye]

46. So says you. Are you omniscient?

I'm not so ready to denigrate activists w/ Sojourners, Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good, the American Friends Service Committee, and the Witherspoon Society, just to name a few Christian organizations. If you are not knowledgeable about these groups, you would find it helpful to dispel your ignorance regarding them when forming your picture of Christians in general. It also doesn't hurt to remember that some of the people most courageous in helping others, such as the abolitionist, John Brown, drew sustenance from their Christian faith. I wouldn't characterize them or the leadership of the Christian social justice organizations as short on critical thinking skills.

While religion has been used to justify some atrocious behavior, so have patriotism, belief in the "free market", communism, and other secular tenets. Even fanatic loyalty to a political party has inspired some to betray commonly held morality. As for that commonly held morality--in the U.S., a lot of that spirit of social justice and tolerance comes from the teachings of Jesus. It is common to rebut Fundie hate w/ quotes from the New Testament. I wonder what sort of a place we would be w/o both the Ten Commandments and passages from the Sermon on the Mount engrained on the sub-consciences of almost all of us, Christian or otherwise?

Humans have failings which they will justify w/ whatever is at hand. IMHO, we should celebrate the spirit that moves people to act for the common good, strive to understand and do better, whatever its source.

[mzteris]

48. I'm sure they all mean welll -

but do it for the right reasons, ya know?

I have a problem with people believing in imaginary beings and happenings.

"celebrate the spirit that moves people to act for the common good, strive to understand and do better, whatever its source."

I agree with you in theory. Religion, of course, was invented to keep the masses under control of the tribal leaders. It's been used to manipulate the people since early early times. I personally believe we should stop treating people like little children and expect them to grow up and do the right thing, period.

[clear eye]

56. Would the world & people were so simple.

Religion evolved to explain the unexplainable, and started by tales told by respected elders around the communal fire, most likely. As with other community "knowledge", these became codified and passed on. Some had important social and emotional truths even if not factual. I'm sure as groups progressed to more complex levels of organization, and the economies could support chieftains and a ruling elite, those driven to rule used every tool they could get their hands on, including the simple religion, to validate their control.

Even now the ruling elite uses whatever it can to frame and bend reality to its advantage, such as "free market theory", taxation, etc. It doesn't mean economics is all fantasy or taxes have no purpose, just that the majority of us have to push back to ensure that our input gets a fair share of respect and the reality of our needs gets a fair share of resources. There are people who just buy whatever frames the authorities are selling be it economics, politics, or religion. There are other more mature, aware people--atheists, agnostics and believers--who use a spirit of learning and seek constructive ways of being, and impacting the rest of us and, in these times, our species.

I honestly don't care what exactly people believe as long as the actions they take in the public sphere are reasonably informed and caring w/ respect to the impact on others. Note I didn't say uninformed good intentions are enough.

There are a lot of popular ideas more damaging and more easily disproved than belief in a universal God consciousness. Your posts have not only attacked organized religion, but theism itself. In my book, it's what you do w/ it that counts.

[piratefish08]

47. what SHE said! ^^^

:applause:

[Sal316]

49. Struck a nerve? No, ya didn't.

But if it makes you feel better thinking you did, go right ahead, it's your story, tell it like you own it.

On a serious note, I want to apologize on behalf of those who called themselves Christian, yet chose to treat you and your family that way. They truly don't have eyes that see, ears that hear, minds that understand, or hearts that truly love.

Believers like that really upset me, and, IMO, don't have the right to call themselves followers of Christ.

With that said, don't presume that "you've been where I am" or that you have even the slightest inkling of what I believe.

Quite honestly, I was where you are about 15 years ago. The difference between you and me is I didn't stop there.

I grew up Catholic, went to Catechism, was an altar boy, communion, confession, confirmation, was a lector on Sundays...the whole nine yards. Then one day I did start questioning, and I left the Church....actually, I felt the Church left me.

I studied all the worlds major religions, read all the texts, studied Eastern philosophy, and fell in love with Taoism. I thought the same things as you did, Paul was a misogynist, the Church is full of backwards people, etc. Then something happened....

....I began to see beyond the words. You see, that's why Jesus taught in parables. It's because we're supposed to continually question, supposed to continually learn, supposed to continually grow.

So, taking what I learned from my rejection of church, I began to look at Christianity again. I began to see through the words to what the message truly was. I began to look at thing in the context in which they were written and, hey, Paul started to make sense and wasn't as big an asshole as I thought. I learned Hebrew and Greek and am starting to learn the original language, Aramaic. Reading the ancient texts helps bring things into a clearer perspective.

I also learned that just because one subscribes to one religion doesn't mean the others are all wrong (a common strawman of the atheists). I began to see the commonalities in all the worlds' belief systems. While you see plagarism and other negatives in that, I see revelation to cultures and societies in ways that they could understand them at the time. Even the Church at Athens in Paul's time worshiped Agnostos Theos, the "Unknown God"....they'd actually swear "Νή τόν Άγνωστον", "in the name of the Unknown God."

Oh, as far as the "72 virgins" myth:

This is as a weak Hadith that has no line or sequence of narration, and is therefore not considered impeccable. As a result, Muslims are not required to believe in it.

Besides, Muslims know that the description of Paradise is allegorical, not literal.

Oh..and God didn't "impregnate a virgin" in the way we understand the meaning of the word "begotten". That's not what it says in the original Aramaic.

Only those who cannot see nor hear take things literally.

Those that say "Don't question God or your going to hell", don't know what they're talking about. Perhaps they should go back and reread most of the OT prophets, especially Habakkuk, and see that it's ok to question God.

Are there idiot believers? Without a doubt, yes. I always say, the worst thing to happen to Christians was the Battle of Milvan Bridge.

Does that justify broadbrushing believers as immature, not "grown up", or mean that religion should be eliminated?

Absolutely not.

I'm sure there's plenty of countries where religion is outlawed and believers of all stripes are persecuted.

Perhaps you'd be happier there.

[mzteris]

50. whatever floats your boat. . .

the theory behind religion is great. though very very few every follow that!

It's the reality. Really. There is no magical being up in the sky. Sorry, but I honestly and truly believe that. I do believe in a morality of the people. A common element of the human spirit. I suppose some people NEED that "thing" that is religion, but I don't. And all people shouldn't. It isn't real. It doesn't exist. All those stories, I'm sorry, they're just stories. And if you're reading the originals, then you KNOW that. It was all made up. And when MEN got involved, they manipulated it to suit their purposes. (Can you say Essene and Nicene councils?)

I believe in trying to educate people. Getting them to let go of those immature crutches to which they cling so desperately. Grow up and take responsibility for your own life and that of your fellow man. You don't "need" religion to be moral. Indeed, the most moral people I know are not in any way shape or form "religious". (And conversely, the most vile people I know ARE "religious".)

Though that helped me to question, it had no bearing on my decision. I realized it was all myth. Plain and simple. Mythology. Created by man to understand himself and the world (and to make excuses and to control others).

Man created god in his own image. And it sucks.

[Leontius]

51. So this is your view,

believers are uneducated, immature, unwilling or unable to take responsibility, less moral than non believers and vile.

[mzteris]

53. nooooooooo -

that's not what I said at all.

Morality is more valid when you are moral because you should be rather than you HAVE to be - as touted by religion - which is the ONLY reason that many "religionists" are moral.

Yeah - a whole damn lot are VILE - or haven't you meant any fundies lately?

The rest? Well, they're just deluded. They were raised to "believe" and so they do.

I'm saying it's time to grow up and see the light. So to speak.

[Leontius]

55. So which of the points I repeated from your post did you not say? nt

[Sal316]

52. Ok, I tried....

...but I guess a bigot never changes their spots.

the theory behind religion is great. though very very few every follow that!

Actually the vast majority do.

It's the reality. Really. There is no magical being up in the sky. Sorry, but I honestly and truly believe that.

That's fine. That doesn't people that believe differently are any less of an intellect or person.

I believe in trying to educate people.

Me too, which is why I'm trying to mitigate the anti-religious bigotry here on DU. Believe, don't believe, I don't care. When you start to dehumanize people one way or the other, you're wrong.

You don't "need" religion to be moral.

Ahhh...another famous atheist canard. Never said it, and I agree.

Like I said, I'm sorry you had such a horrible experience.

It's sad you've let yours define you.

[mzteris]

54. fu you and your "bigot"

I'm not a "bigot"

I KNOW whereof I speak, hon.

"Actually the vast majority do."

Actually, No, they don't.

Or haven't you been paying attention. Wars. Hatred. Prejudice. Misogyny.

As I stated, the experience didn't define me. It helped me to ask the questions that needed to be asked, though. If people like THAT, could be " believers" - then what in the blue blazing hell did I have in common with them?

As stated, I realized - after close examination of all of the FACTS IN EVIDENCE - it's all a crock. People who need to believe, well - that's their problem. Me? I don't NEED a crutch. I'm sorry you - and others - do.

Again - if you REALLY examine it all - and are unafraid to confront your fears and embrace the truth, I think you'll finally understand the truth.

There is NO "god".

If there is ANYTHING at all, it bears absolutely no f'ing resemblance to anything that man's tiny little brain can imagine.

[Quasimojo]

58. They weren't "listening"

As long as there is a wailing wall, someone will bring a spear.

Peace,
Quasimojo

[Quasimojo]

57. and you failed.....

...but I guess an apologetic is more concerned with stopping the "atheist" pandemic than they are from disabling instead of enabling fundamentalists, fanatics and extremists.

I'll cut to the chase. You defend religion and gods for the rewards of an afterlife you believe exists and deserve because you accepted an arrogant jerk into your heart for absolving others of the responsibility to make reparations to those they've wronged because he allegedly committed suicide, an action he as the father purportedly doesn't condone and he as the son purportedly regretted. Last time I checked religion is the only authoritative industry that values anecdotal evidence.

I'm also an a-kraken-ist, a-santa-ist, a-poseidon-ist, a-unicorn-ist, a-nephilm-ist, a-minotaur-ist and a-soul-ist. Sounds like gibberish to you? Me too.

I don't dehumanize them. The minute theists bring their invisible sky genie or dogmatic organizations and doctrines into my life they are ejected from my life and their phone numbers are deleted.

Too bad "yours" has to change the Origin of Species and build creationist museums for their "War on science", blow up planned parenthoods, start brainwashing youth camps and steal my foreskin while "theirs" slam planes into buildings, oppress "their" women and mutilate genitals. I also don't approve of Hinduism and Buddhism but didn't mention it because after reading all of your posts, I can only assume you enjoy dichotomies. Additionally through my experiences I find Pagans to be the most tolerant of all the theists and I don't believe them either.

"It's sad you've let yours define you."
I see what religion does for us everyday and if you're not having a horrible experience than I think it's sad you dehumanized yourself. Don't bother responding with "your" usual trite. I tried coexisting with Xians for twenty years, debated and argued with the self imposed "them" who gave me the label of Atheist for ten and now I don't want to waste another minute on Linus Von Pelt's blanket. I will waste the time on Linus though.

[Sal316]

59. Second verse, same as the first....

...but I guess an apologetic is more concerned with stopping the "atheist" pandemic than they are from disabling instead of enabling fundamentalists, fanatics and extremists.

Well, you guessed wrong, but that won't be the last time you do in your post. You see, there is not "atheist pandemic", but what there is is an asshat pandemic, and from the way you've started, it looks like you're infected.

You defend religion and gods for the ....

Thanks for tell me what I believe, Mr. Dawkins. Is this a conversation or a monologue?

I'm also an a-kraken-ist,...

Yawn. This canard again? Why don't you try coming up with something new. If you'd have read anything I've said, you'd see that this statement makes you look even more like an arrogant prick.

I don't dehumanize them. The minute theists bring their invisible sky genie or dogmatic organizations and doctrines into my life they are ejected from my life and their phone numbers are deleted.

How's life in your comfortable little bubble where everyone believes the same as you?

Too bad "yours" has to change ....

Yeah, cuz we're all one....just like the Borg. This is more like a monologue, the content of which has obviously come from stereotype 101.

I see what religion does for us everyday and if you're not having a horrible experience than I think it's sad you dehumanized yourself. Don't bother responding...

Translation: I know what I believe, so don't bother trying to talk to me. Don't challenge me either, because I'll stick my fingers in my ears and go "la la la..." at the top of my lungs so I can't hear you.

Nice monologue, tho. I'll give you 8 out of 10, losing points only for creativity of content.