Adam and Eve,

[Thats my opinion]

It is a STORY about what ancient primitive people thought of life in a particular culture. It is not about history. In that culture women were second best. That is the way it was in most ancient cultures. But in the Christian era we have St. Paul's testimony that there is nether jew or greek, male or female, slave or free, but one humanity. it has taken a long time to catch up to that proposition and in much of religious and secular society we haven't gotten there yet.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pnwmom]

2. Are you having a bad day?

The OP appears to be saying, IMHO, that we aren't meant to take the Adam and Eve story literally -- and most Christians don't.

Why is this "blithering mindless ignorance"?

[dmallind]

5. I refer you to #4

It would strain all credulity to imagine a scenario where the percentage who believe in a literal, divine creation as we are today does not include most Christians.

[pnwmom]

7. I'm not sure what you're saying. But about half of all Christians

are Catholic, and they don't believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible. Add to Catholics all the other mainstream denominations that don't teach a literal interpretation, and it turns out that only a relatively small BUT VOCAL minority of Christians do so.

[dmallind]

11. It's Pew Research saying it - I trust their surveys over your opinion (or mine).

In no feasible way can 44-47% of all Americans believing in a divine as-is creation of all species by something called "God" NOT include a majority of Christians believing this. Whether they are "supposed to" by the preferred teachings of their sect means little.

[pnwmom]

13. That fraction also included people who thought God had something

to do with evolution, not just strict creationists.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dmallind]

31. No it does not - absolutely false. Read it again! nt

[laconicsax]

19. *cough*

http://www.gallup.com/poll/145286/Four-Americans-Believe-Strict-Creationism.aspx

40% of Americans are strict Creationist/Biblical literalists.

Christians account for about http://www.americanreligionsurvey-aris.org/reports/highlights.html">76% of the US population meaning 50% of Christians constitute 38% of the population.

When you factor in the fact that of the remaining population, only Muslims and Jews (combining to be a little over 2% of the population) can be considered strict creationists/Biblical literalists, there's no way to have creationists/literalists be a "small...minority of Christians."

Also...

The http://www.americanreligionsurvey-aris.org/reports/ARIS_Report_2008.pdf">ARIS survey from a few years ago has Catholics only being about 30% of Christians, so there's that too.

[Cirque du So-What]

27. nevermind

thanks :hi:

[rrneck]

3. How is it relevant today? nt

[dmallind]

4. But a plurality of Americans and majority of Xians think otherwise

44-47% think all species - humans included - were created in their present form by God. That's a pretty damn good proxy for belief in Adam and Eve (what's the difference beyond maybe their names?). Since we can assume very few non-believers think thusly, we are left with the inarguable conclusion that most Xians (about 81% of the population) do. Muslims, Jews etc are 1-2% each tops and no other religion exceeds 1%.

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1107/polling-evolution-creationism

[pnwmom]

8. That's your interpretation of that article.

I think the article was much more nuanced than that. Believing that God had some hand in the evolutionary process is not the same as believing in a literal interpretation of the Adam and Eve story.

[dmallind]

12. NO!! guided evolution is a SEPARATE category in that poll - an ADDITIONAL 36%

It's not interpretation, it's data.

44% believe in a literal as-is creation, by "God", of all species, humans included, at one time. in the last 10000 years. If you want to quibble that some people believe that they had other names than Adam and Eve feel free, but it's as close a proxy as we are likely to find.

In fact in one poll cited in the article, 50% said "The Biblical account of creation is true as told in the Bible" Since that telling includes Adam and Eve, and 50% agree it's true, how again can that not be a majority of Xians?

It may be inconvenient, but these people have actually asked large random samples of real people what they believe, and do not need to rely on what you think they SHOULD believe.

[pnwmom]

14. Where in the article does it say that 44% believe

in a "literal as-is creation, by God of all species at one time." I didn't see that anywhere.

[dmallind]

15. in the table "conflicting views on the origins of life" , third set, most recent result (2008)

Check out the middle poll in the Evolution and Creationism are not seen as incompatible" for an even more damning response.

here to save you the apparently insurmountable effort of reading and accurately responding to a link



And the Fox news poll from 99 is even more fun...

[darkstar3]

16. No one you talk to EVER likes that poll, do they?

Thanks again for posting it, as I'd forgotten it.

[dmallind]

18. Not even just one poll - dozens, over decades, all agree

A majority of believers, and a plurality, by far, of all Americans, believe in the fairy story that DU apologists assure us is taken as an allegory by "almost all" Christians.

[trotsky]

25. I have found this to be a fact that liberal Christians...

simply refuse to believe. They cannot accept that a majority of their fellow Christians truly do believe in such a primitive, literalistic version of their faith.

[Puzzler]

6. Let's talk about Zeus and Hera while we're at it.

[Cleita]

9. OK I'm willing to go there.

Zeus conquered Hera and tried to make her submissive to him. The Mother goddess earth religions personified by Hera got conquered by the patrimonial sky religions personified by Zeus and by a series of invasions by horse riding nomads conquering agricultural farmers. It's all in the mythology. I simplified this and we all know it's far more complicated.

[dimbear]

21. Always worth noting the eymological equivalence of Zeus and deus.

OK. I know it's somewhat conjectural. Still, it's worth remembering when you hear those latin hymns.

[darkstar3]

10. Trying to tilt the previously referenced "score", are we?

;)

[spin]

20. Most Christians never read the Bible ...

therefore they don't realize that there are TWO stories of creation in Genesis.

Genesis creation narrative

***snip***

Overview

The opening passages of the Book of Genesis consecutively contain two creation stories. In the first story God progressively creates the different features of the world over a series of six days, resting on the seventh day.

Creation is performed by divine incantation: on the first day God says, "Let there be light!" and light appears. On the second day God creates an expanse (firmament) to separate the waters above (the sky) from those below (the ocean/abyssos). On the third day God commands the waters below to recede and make dry land appear, and fills the earth with vegetation. God then puts lights in the sky to separate day from night to mark the seasons. On the fifth day, God creates sea creatures and birds of every kind and commands them to procreate. On the sixth day, God creates land creatures of every kind. Man and woman are created last, after the entire world is prepared for them; they are created in the image of God, and are given dominion and care over all other created things. God rests on the seventh and final day of creation as Sabbath, which he marks as holy.

In the second story the creation of man follows the creation of the heavens and earth, but occurs before the creation of plants and animals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_creation_narrative

[MikeH]

22. The TRUE story of Adam and Eve

Or at least this account, which the author says is a satirical take, I think is much truer than the official version of the story.

In particular I would say that the author has it right as to who the devil really is, and as to the true identity of God.



A Deistic Take on the Fable of The Garden of Eden and Adam and Eve

A Deistic Satirical Take on The Garden of Eden

by David Bunch


ACT ONE

1. God created the world and two people named Adam and Eve, with whom he intended to populate the world.

2. One day, while God was not looking, the Devil came and captured Adam and Eve.

3. Adam and Eve were imprisoned in the Devil's garden called "Eden." God spoke to his eternal foe and asked for the return of his people. But the Devil, being fond of his new pets, refused.

4. God resolved to liberate Adam and Eve. Taking the shape of a serpent, God sneaked into the Devil's garden.

5. Sensing that Eve was the more insightful of the pair, God approached her.

6. God said to Eve, "If you will listen to me, I know a way for you to escape your imprisonment."

7. Eve said, "But Mr. Serpent, I do not wish to escape Eden. I like it here. This garden has everything I need."

8. God said, "You do not know what you are missing. Outside of this garden is an entire world, much larger than a mere garden. This world was created for your use. You will be much more satisfied there."

9. Eve said, "Really? I need to discuss this with Adam."

10. God said, "No, don't do that! Listen to me. In the far part of the garden there is a tree, called the Tree of Knowledge. Eat from this tree, and trick Adam into doing the same. Then you will know of the world at large, and your true mission in life."

11. And so Eve did as God asked. She and Adam ate from the Tree of Knowledge. They knew at once of the world outside and they were astonished to know how large and beautiful it was.

12. The Devil, sensing a disturbance, came into his garden to check on things. He was surprised to find that Adam and Eve had put on clothing and were building a boat out of fallen trees. He knew at once that they discovered the Tree of Knowledge.

13. The Devil was very cross. He spoke to Adam and Eve. "You think you are smart now! The world outside is not as grand as you think it is. In here - you are safe and taken care of. Out there - you must work and suffer."

14. Adam spoke. "We know of the world at large and our true potential. What you say may be true, but we do not want to live in a state of perpetual dependence. We are going to leave this garden and take our chances in the world."

15. Adam and Eve climbed into their boat and floated down river, exiting Eden.

16. The Devil began looking about his garden. By and by, he found a serpent that was not his own. The Devil spoke, "I see you now, God. I wish to confront you."

17. God resumed his natural shape. God and the Devil stood facing each other. God spoke. "Those people were my creation, and I intended to populate the world with them. You stole them from me and now I have stolen them back."

18. The Devil spoke. "You are clever God, but I am more clever still. Adam and Eve will populate the world, but once they have done this, I will find a way to turn their descendants into my servants."

19. God spoke. "You shall not succeed. I will place a part of myself inside of each new born child. This shall be called the "heart." The people of my world will never be separated from me - and they will never serve you."

20. "We shall see," said the Devil.


ACT TWO

1. Adam and Eve entered into the world. There they worked and suffered just as the Devil said they would, but even so they felt satisfaction. They knew they were doing that for which they were created.

2. Adam and Eve parented many children and these children parented many more. By and by, the world became full of the progeny of Adam and Eve. God was pleased.

3. The Devil was not pleased. The success of his rival irritated him greatly. The Devil tried repeatedly to enslave the progeny of Adam and Eve but he was not successful.

4. Thwarting the Devil with every attempt was the heart, that part of God that existed inside of every person.

5. The Devil thought to himself, "It appears that the only way I can enslave these people is if I somehow convince them to stop following their own hearts. I must be crafty."

6. The Devil hatched a crooked plan. He took the form of a spirit and spoke to an impressionable man named Abraham.

7. "Listen to me, Abraham, for I am the Lord God," said the Devil. "All of humanity is born separate from me. But I have chosen your people to be my special people. I will teach you how to reunite yourselves with me." Abraham felt a rush of pride at having been chosen and he agreed to do the Devil's bidding.

8. For the following months and years the Devil instructed Abraham and his people. He taught them elaborate and absurd rituals. This the Devil knew, would keep their minds focused on external things and thus keep them from looking inside - where the heart dwelt.

9. The people of Abraham performed their rituals with great diligence. They believed that by performing rituals, they were uniting themselves with God. When in fact, they were separating themselves from God.

10. The Devil was pleased with his success. He searched the world and found other men like Abraham. Soon the world was rife with ritualism, and divided into hostile tribes.


ACT THREE

1. God saw what the Devil was doing but he did not fret. For the heart, placed inside each person is not just the connection between God and humanity. The heart is also the source of inspiration and therefore creativity.

2. God knew that tribes who became ritualistic would also loose their ability to invent new things. These tribes would fall behind, and be conquered by other, more advanced tribes.

3. And so it came to pass that the Devil's primary weapon was ritualism and God's primary weapon was secularism. Some centuries, the Devil enjoyed the upper hand and some centuries God did.

4. The battle never did end. It goes on today much as it did in Abraham's time. The battle never will end either. It will go on and on, Ad Infinitum.

http://www.deism.com/adamandeve.htm



Personal disclosure: I would consider myself to be a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism">Deist, or at least closer to that than to anything else.

An added note: I have posted this previously, and there was one valid criticism.

This verse: Act 3, #2: God knew that tribes who became ritualistic would also loose their ability to invent new things. These tribes would fall behind, and be conquered by other, more advanced tribes.

It should be noted that one tribe conquering or exterminating another tribe is not at all an indication that the tribe doing the conquering is necessarily more "advanced".

Even so, the above account is an improvement over the official story, and much closer to the truth, IMHO.

[laconicsax]

23. It gets even closer to the truth if you add...

Robots and a time-traveling mollusk that teaches Luke Skywalker the true meaning of Christmas.

[PassingFair]

28. Don't forget the bagels...they're holey!

[skepticscott]

24. We also have the "testimony"

of St. Paul that

"As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church."

and:

“Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything”

Did you not think these passages also relevant to your point? Or were you just not aware of them? Or were you hoping no one else here was? How much more kindergarten theology are you going to fling at us before you start making posts with some genuine thought and substance behind them?

[trotsky]

26. So, you like what Paul had to say about women, eh?

That tells me a lot.

[ZombieHorde]

29. I also believe the tale of Adam and Eve is fiction, though I think the serpent is the hero in the

story.

God told A&E (not the TV channel) they would die if they ate from the Tree of Knowledge, but the serpent told them the truth. The Tree of Knowledge initiated A&E into the world.

God then acted unreasonably and punished not just the offending serpent, but all of its kind. God seems to like punishing the innocent for the deeds of others. This is the main theme in Jesus' crucifixion story. God has Jesus punished because other people are assholes.

[westerebus]

30. The son of the god of the gods.

Or how to tell if there is a god personified?

An alternative view of the Crucifixion story.

That god's only son was crucified, died and buried, only to rise again.

All else aside, rising from the dead determines who is a god.

Ergo, zombies have more in common with Jesus than any one else.

The exception being ascending into heaven on the part of Jesus.

Lazarus was raised from the dead by Jesus, though his flesh was rotten and his eyes dull.

Was considered an abomination.

As a comparison.

:)

[EvolveOrConvolve]

32. This is your best post yet

No CAPS in the subject line. At least you've stopped yelling the good word at us.