Gore Vidal announces he is "BORN AGAIN!"

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

Gore Vidal: "I'm a born again Atheist."

From: http://www.wisdomquotes.com/cat_agnosticismatheism.html with plenty of other noteworthy quotes.

Clarence Darrow:
I do not believe in God because I do not believe in Mother Goose.



Clarence Darrow:
I do not consider it an insult, but rather a compliment to be called an agnostic. I do not pretend to know where many ignorant men are sure -- that is all that agnosticism means.

Scopes trial, Dayton, Tennessee, July 13, 1925



Dennis McKinsey:
If God kills, lies, cheats, discriminates, and otherwise behaves in a manner that puts the Mafia to shame, that's okay, he's God. He can do whatever he wants. Anyone who adheres to this philosophy has had his sense of morality, decency, justice and humaneness warped beyond recognition by the very book that is supposedly preaching the opposite.

newsletter Biblical Errancy



Don Hirschberg:
Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color.



Emma Goldman:
The philosophy of Atheism represents a concept of life without any metaphysical Beyond or Divine Regulator. It is the concept of an actual, real world with its liberating, expanding and beautifying possibilities, as against an unreal world, which, with its spirits, oracles, and mean contentment has kept humanity in helpless degradation.



Francis Bacon:
Atheism leaves a man to sense, to philosophy, to natural piety, to laws, to reputation; all of which may be guides to an outward moral virtue, even if religion vanished; but religious superstition dismounts all these and erects an absolute monarchy in the minds of men.



G.K. Chesterton:
I always like a dog so long as he isn't spelled backward.

<snip>

[gratuitous]

1. I like beating up on Christians and other believers

Because if they answer you in kind you can scream "hypocrite!" and if they don't answer you, you can pretend you've scored some sort of rhetorical point. It's basically win-win, and since it's not my personal beliefs getting savaged I feel better about myself.

That about sum it up?

[StellaBlue]

3. "believers"

:scared:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

129. I won't hurt you.

Promise.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

4. There's no diss on Christians here...

(It's about atheism)

[TroglodyteScholar]

5. "Nothing in this post is intended to annoy anyone."

You sure about that?

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

8. Where did your quote come from?

[TroglodyteScholar]

13. the interweb, of course

I found it on a random Zappa fansite, although I've seen the quote used in libertarian and conservative contexts...

[Big Kahuna]

9. Sorry to beat up on you

...but I believe the post was more about defending Atheism than beating up on Christians.

[Der Blaue Engel]

12. Why is it that when athiests talk about their beliefs

this is deemed by some as "beating up on Christians"? Certainly, I have seen athiests "attack" Christianity, but this is clearly not that kind of post.

Savaged? Um, come on.

[beam me up scottie]

23. Our very existence is an insult to their faith.

We're supposed to sit in the back of the bus and shut up, lest we cost the Dems another election.

It's okay though, we're in good company, the GLBT folks are back here with us and so are the immigrants.


~BMUS

The original uppity atheist

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beam me up scottie]

24. Paranoid much?

Yes, it's all an elaborate set up and you fell for it.

Congratulations.

[Random_Australian]

26. Alright, I call bull and ask you to back up your assertions.

Assertion 1) The OP is anti-believer. I say this is exactly the same as when a theist says "I believe in God" is an insult to atheists! Actually, it really isn't.

Please post two quotes from the OP that insult Christians or believers.

Assertion 2) Atheists here are nasty. Actually, I see us all getting on pretty well, except for a few who like to bother everyone else who are screaming "PERSECUTION" at people quietly talking.

Please, post four examples of persectoin of Christians.

Assertion 3) Atheists scream "hypocrite!".

Please, post four examples, because in all honesty I don't believe you.

Assertion 4) "you can pretend you've scored some sort of rhetorical point" implies that you know how atheists think. My goodness gracious, if you could post your evidence about that, I should be most impressed.

Assertion 5) "since it's not my personal beliefs getting savaged I feel better about myself" implies that atheists like for others to suffer.

You may choose any four people quoted as saying "I like it when others suffer" who attribute that statement to their atheism to back up your assertion.

To be scrupulously honest - which I generally am - I must admit that of you managed to do so, I should be most impressed.

[lvx35]

29. I'll bite.

1)
Please post two quotes from the OP that insult Christians or believers.

okay, first we'll take the quote from Clarence Darrow comparing belief in God to Mother Goose. This quote implies that religious beliefs are infantile, or something for children. This is insulting.

And second, hmmm. I like this emma goldman one.

"which, with its spirits, oracles, and mean contentment has kept humanity in helpless degradation."

The implication being that Christians and other people of faith, with their charitable outreach programs and so forth, are in the business of keeping humanity in "helpless degradation".

Why don't you try flipping these terms sometime to see if its insulting? What if I said "Atheists, with their child-like conviction of the completeness of their own knowledge, are endlessly preaching the godless ideologies that keep humanity enslaved in helpless degradation?" Might you find that insulting?

2) Atheists here are nasty. (please post four examples)

Atheists here can be quite pleasant or quite nasty. But there have been numerous examples of atheists being nasty, the worst ones, involving death threats and the like have been deleted, like any nasty post on DU. But really, I should be calling out your arguing tactic of demanding somebody who disagrees with you do a research project, and considering yourself right if they don't. The argument that being an atheist (or believer) prevents you from saying nasty things is too absurd to really have to disprove through example.

3) A repeat of two. Like anybody else, atheists do indeed use the word "hypocrite" when they see people doing something that seems contradictory to what they preach, and you are relying on nobody wanting to do a research project to disprove the sweeping statement that they don't.

4) "you can pretend you've scored some sort of rhetorical point" implies that you know how atheists think.

Oh ho! Let me tell you something about knowing how people think: You atheists are the undisputed champions in my experience. I've had so many atheists disprove a ridiculous God I don't believe in that it makes my head spin. Generally, hardline atheists take the most vile, fundamentalist forms of religion and use it to define all religion, and when we inform them that what they are disprove is not our beliefs, they equate what we say to redefining our beliefs

Let me make this perfectly clear: Spirituality makes no sense to you because you don't get it. That's okay, that does not make you a bad person, but you should not presume that you do get it. Think of having a relationship with God as being like taking LSD laced Kool-Aid. The people who drink the Kool-Aid see the trails, and you don't. And you can stand around trying to scientifically disprove the existence of the trails to the people on acid, but nobody will listen, and until you yourself drink the kool-aid and actually have the experience. Once you have, once you have seen the force that makes people fall on their their knees and say "Hallelujah" you may still consider it a psychological phenomenon, but you will NEVER disrespect people of faith again, I guarantee that!

To your fifth and final point, you are right. I certainly could not find 4 posts on this forum to that effect. Atheists in my experience do not want others to suffer. They are just trying to do the right thing, trying to find the truth. Like all of us. LIKE ALL OF US. I just wish you could see that about us.

edit: spelling

[beam me up scottie]

30. Atheists posted "death threats" ? ROFLMAO !!!

:rofl:

You just lost whatever credibility you may have had to begin with.



Okay, actually I'm lying, you had no credibility and now you're in the red.



death threats

:rofl:

[lvx35]

31. Its happened, I remember the specific thread.

It was through implication. The guy was having about "having a gun" related to religious people and another poster said: "I'm a christian, whose the gun for? And it was very fucked up and mods deleted it.

edit: BMUS, do you ACTUALLY believe that atheism gives you a universal moral superiority where you would never do this sort of thing? ANY belief has bad apples, its just common sense.

[beam me up scottie]

32. Yeah, uh huh, sure.

...slowly backs away from poster :yoiks:

[lvx35]

33. You haven't answered my question.

Does what I am saying seem implausible to you because you belief that atheism gives you an innate immunity to immoral actions?

[beam me up scottie]

35. Your ridiculous question was just answered.

Now either back up your ridiculous claims or stop trying to use your dubious anecdotes as evidence.

[lvx35]

37. How was my question answered?

I asked you about whether or not it was plausible for an atheist to be immoral.

[beam me up scottie]

39. Actually, it's irrelevant.

Your claim that atheists posted death threats on DU is ridiculous.

[lvx35]

43. Why is it ridiculous?

The only way it could be ridiculous is if you though all atheists were too moral to do such a thing, that they never felt the emotional stress to do such a thing. But I told you above what occured, and it did. It is you who is denying reality.

[beam me up scottie]

45. It's make believe. You accused us of a crime that you can't prove

we ever committed.

It was dirty, unethical and unworthy of a liberal.

Happy?

[lvx35]

49. I can't prove it because the moderators delete such comments

as well they should. The question is why you think that such an event should be absurd. If a believer got crazy and posted something like that, I would not consider it absurd, because I don't think being a believer creates any innate moral superiority. But apparently, you think Atheism does.

[beam me up scottie]

52. I think your behaviour isn't just absurd, it's unethical.

Who accused whom of a crime here?

We didn't try to frame others, you did.

[lvx35]

56. What motivates you?

What motivates you with your infantile desire to win that gives up all care for truth? When did you stop caring about truth, BMUS?

[beam me up scottie]

57. You accused us of a crime, the truth has nothing to do with it.

Keep digging.

[lvx35]

59. I did not accuse you of a crime

I accused of shitty implications that got deleted. Why don't you care about truth?

[beam me up scottie]

62. Making death threats is a crime. Did you call the police?

You should have.

The perpetrators of such immoral and illegal acts should be punished.

[lvx35]

64. Why are you hear lying?

This is your one life, your precious life. Why don't you go out and live? Why do you try to sow discord with democrats?

[beam me up scottie]

66. You accused us of committing a crime, too late for holier than thou's.

Keep digging.

[beam me up scottie]

34. Superiority-schuperiory. It's about ridiculous claims with no evidence.

Same as usual.

[lvx35]

36. What specifically is the ridiculous claim BMUS?

That it is implausible for an atheist to commit an immoral action? Clarify, I'm sick of empty rhetoric.

[beam me up scottie]

41. You're confusing christian supremacy with something that doesn't

exist outside of a fundamentalist's slimy imagination.

It's all right, I understand.

My fundie co-workers try to change words and meanings all the time too.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lvx35]

54. Your not going to drive me out of this party.

Nor are you going to drive the majority of Democratic believers out of this party. We will prevail, we will stay unified, understand that with great clarity, and give up your divisive tactics.

[beam me up scottie]

55. The Democratic party didn't accuse us of a crime.

You did.

Keep digging.

[lvx35]

58. You are arguing against the truth.

Its not a real crime to make shitty comments on a forum, BMUS. Why do you do this? Why do you stay up fighting for a lie?

[beam me up scottie]

60. Keep digging.

I'll just take pictures of the ethical and moral christian who slandered DU atheists.

[lvx35]

63. I'm not a fucking Christian.

I've told you this 16 times. its part of the truth that you refuse to see. YOU ARE THE FUNDAMENTALIST THAT YOU HATE.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lvx35]

70. Anybody can see it now, BMUS.

Your refusal to get to truth, your desire to sow discord and perpetuate argument. I have given you every chance.

[beam me up scottie]

74. Yep, they can: "involving death threats and the like have been deleted"

What a lousy thing to accuse your fellow liberals of.

[lvx35]

77. You know, it happens.

People post shitty inappropriate comments sometimes, and neither race nor religion nor lack thereof really determines who it will be.

[beam me up scottie]

79. No shit.

shitty inappropriate arguements:

the worst ones, involving death threats and the like

[Random_Australian]

101. Actually, I've been reading this and I can't seem to see this

refusal to get to the truth.

I saw you claiming that atheists make death threats.

Then I saw you saying that Bmus's objections meant she thought atheists were all perfect.

And FWIW, I can't see much here that has contributed much to, well, anything really.

[beam me up scottie]

103. Oy, RA. Welcome back.

Hope your class went well.

I'm not sure why there's been so much hatred for atheists here in the last week but it's getting WAY out of hand. Just have a look at my sig line for a good example.

Maybe it's the Dawkins article?

[Random_Australian]

113. Thanks, dear Bmus. G'night as well! I hear you are off to bed.

Sweet dreams.

[lvx35]

105. I made the comment that the nastiest comments made by atheists have been

deleted. In a following post, I relayed the experience where I saw that take place, and what it was. I make no claim beyond this, and no claim that "atheists make death threats" as if its something that all atheists do. here's what I said:

Atheists here can be quite pleasant or quite nasty. But there have been numerous examples of atheists being nasty, the worst ones, involving death threats and the like have been deleted, like any nasty post on DU. ... The argument that being an atheist (or believer) prevents you from saying nasty things is too absurd to really have to disprove through example.

That's what I said, atheists can be pleasant or nasty, and the nasty posts, with death threats and the like, have been deleted, therefore no proof of them exists. Same of believers, as I noted parenthetically.

the point is that ALL people make nasty comments sometimes. To believe it is implausible that an atheist would make a nasty or intimating post is a crazy assertion, people are people, but that's what lies behind the denial of my anecdotal experience.

[Random_Australian]

110. .................

"But there have been numerous examples of atheists being nasty, the worst ones, involving death threats and the like have been deleted"

This means the DU atheists make death threats, no? I mean, if there was a one-post wonder, or a troll, one would hardly claim that atheists

"like beating up on Christians and other believers"

Would one?

No, of course not. This implies systemic attack by atheists, and what everyone thus far has asked for is proof of this, because you've really not supplied any.



"Same of believers, as I noted parenthetically"

Actually, you noted that bieng a believer does not put one beyond reproach.



"the point is that ALL people make nasty comments sometimes. To believe it is implausible that an atheist would make a nasty or intimating post is a crazy assertion, people are people, but that's what lies behind the denial of my anecdotal experience."

See this up-post:

- 'This implies systemic attack by atheists, and what everyone thus far has asked for is proof of this, because you've really not supplied any.'

Because, y'know, that really, really is not what is behind what you think is denial of your evidence, and what's more, the very idea that Bmus thinks atheists are beyond reproach is sillier than any other claim you've made today... do you know why?

Because here is the same dear Bmus that you have been making these accusations about. An atheist attacked the believers, and she stood up to the plate to protect them

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=214&topic_id=75881

I think you need to calm down and consider the perfectly reasonable possibility of people not interpeting others posts the exact way the author intended.

Edit: you may notice some odd quotes. I had not notice you changed from the original person I was arguing against. Please note that you are taken to be defending their point of view up until the time you say otherwise.

[beam me up scottie]

38. Actually, that's just as hysterical as your insinuation that I or

any other atheist thinks we're morally superior to believers because of our atheism.

You're full of it tonight, aren't you?

[lvx35]

42. No BMUS, that is your insinuation.

By thinking it implausible that an atheist ever said a nasty comment which was banned on DU, you implied an innate moral superiority to atheists. I have never made such a comment, for example, about believers. I'm sure some believers have made nasty comments that have been deleted, and I would not think anecdotal evidence about the occurence of such events was false.

[beam me up scottie]

44. blah blah blah

I laughed at your claim because it smacks of right wing tactics.

Accuse us of a crime you can't prove ever happened and then act all self righteous when you're called on your bullshit.

yawn.

[lvx35]

51. BMUS, wake up. Atheists have free will.

Some conduct themselves morally, some do not. Atheists are human beings, and you do not speak for the collective. There is no collective, they do all kinds of things.

[beam me up scottie]

53. You accused us of MAKING DEATH THREATS ON DU.

That's slander.


And it's dirty.

Really dirty.

Ugh, I need a shower.

[lvx35]

61. Why do you do this BMUS?

Why do you lie? Why do sow discord rather than moving toward truth?

[beam me up scottie]

65. You accused DU atheists of making death threats-it's in your post.

And now you're compounding it by saying I'm lying about your post?

Keep digging.

[salvorhardin]

69. You claimed DU atheists made death threats

But there have been numerous examples of atheists being nasty, the worst ones, involving death threats and the like have been deleted, like any nasty post on DU.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=93297&mesg_id=93438

And you claim BMUS is lying?

[lvx35]

71. Yes, if BMUS claims it never happened.

I've seen atheists make fucked up threads regarding having guns for religious folks that got deleted. Why would you doubt this?

[beam me up scottie]

75. Because there's no evidence?

And you're accusing me of lying about your claim when it's right there for everyone to see.

Little credibility issue there.

[lvx35]

78. Prove to me right now that GWB took a shit in the last month

I want to see photographs, TP, all of it.

Guess what, a great deal of things that happen aren't documented deal with it.

[beam me up scottie]

On the contrary, your accusation is well documented.

You need another one of these:

[lvx35]

81. What the hell are you talking about? nt

[beam me up scottie]

82. This: "involving death threats and the like have been deleted"

Oh, but I'm lying about your accusation, right?

[lvx35]

83. Yes, nasty comments from atheists have been deleted from DU.

I stand by this point. Are you saying anything at this point?

[beam me up scottie]

85. We made death threats, as in more than one, you have yet to prove

even one was made.

Nice evasion tactics, when * wears Tony out you should apply.

[lvx35]

87. Did you read any part of my post

Except for the one part you could create a childlike "gimme evidence" when you can't provide any evidence that nasty comments were NOT made by atheists on DU?

[beam me up scottie]

90. I read the part where you accused us of making death threats.

Why bother with the rest of it when you just ruined your credibility with one sentence?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

130. That's a strange shovel

with no point. For snow, I guess?

[salvorhardin]

76. What BMUS believes or doesn't is irrelevant here

You made an assertion that atheists have made death threats on DU. It is up to you to defend that claim. If you choose not to, then it is nothing but a straw man argument. and should be taken as such. It is also an attempt to paint all DU atheists with a very broad, very tar-clogged brush. Really, you should apologize.

[lvx35]

80. BS.

My comment simply says that atheists have made both nasty and nice comments on DU, and like anybody there nasty comments have been deleted. That's the reality. If you don't understand this, then go and find a nasty comment by a believer that was deleted and show it to me. Wait...You can't, because they were deleted! get it?

[salvorhardin]

88. I'm not the one making a claim

You are. You claim atheists made death threats.

But there have been numerous examples of atheists being nasty, the worst ones, involving death threats and the like have been deleted, like any nasty post on DU.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=93297&mesg_id=93438

You made an indefensible claim for the sole purpose of erecting a strawman which you could tear down as morally reprehensible and thusly imply that as indicative of all atheists on DU.

You could claim "some atheists have made nasty remarks" and you would get no disagreement. You chose to go one step further over the line and now you choose to lie and misrepresent your own words. That is the morally reprehensible position. Wait... wasn't there something in some book sometime about bearing false witness against your neighbors or something? Nah. Must be my imagination.

[lvx35]

91. BS again.

"You made an indefensible claim for the sole purpose of erecting a strawman by which you could tear down as morally reprehensible and thusly imply that as indicative of all atheists on DU."

No, I claimed that atheists made some moral, and some immoral arguments, and if you read my post this is very clear. I made the point that atheists are like other people, in that they make both kinds of posts, some so innapropriate they are deleted. The real thing here is that YOU are making a claim suggesting the inplausibility of such remarks, and that is really more of a stretch than I claiming such remarks occured.

Book? You must be imagining I am a Christian. Not suprising, as many of you seem to constantly battling the imaginary Christian in your heads.

[beam me up scottie]

92. Wow, feel the love.

You deny making the claim now?

And go on to insult sal?

Nice.

This is a new low for this forum, someone accusing others of committing crimes.

[lvx35]

95. BMUS, meet the ignore list.

I have tried working with you for so long, but you always choose whatever will escalate the confrontation rather than what will build bridges and promote understanding. Bye!

[beam me up scottie]

97. ROFL! Accusing atheists of making death threats is "working" with me?

Oh please don't ignore me, I couldn't bear not being falsely accused of making death threats and lying.

:rofl:

[cosmik debris]

123. Ignore List : Shield or Sword?

I find it amusing that people believe that the ignore list can be used as a weapon, that they can actually hurt someone with it. It is even more amusing that they announce their threat to the world. Of course, without the announcement, no one would know that you had chosen to use the electronic "ignore" button rather that use the manual "ignore" button that evolution gave you.

If you want to ignore BMUS, or me, it won't make any difference to anybody but you. And announcing it as if it was a moral triumph doesn't impress anyone but you, especially when you continue to respond.

A weak threat that turns into a vacant threat is only a bad joke.

[Dorian Gray]

125. I like to think that it's a shield...

one that can preserve sanity in circulating arguments that seem to never end.

[salvorhardin]

98. Fascinating

But there have been numerous examples of atheists being nasty, the worst ones, involving death threats and the like have been deleted, like any nasty post on DU.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=93297&mesg_id=93438

Those were your words and yet you seem to have no recall of making them. And somehow you think I am am the one making an unsubstantiated claim for the purpose of denigrating you.

You're right about one thing though. I should not have assumed you were a Christian... or that you took a moral stance against lying about others. I was wrong.

[beam me up scottie]

100. The christians will be relieved.

And I don't blame them.

[lvx35]

102. not true.

I recall those words and made no claim that I did not make them. Where do you read that from the post above? I said that I made the comment that atheists made positive and negative comments, as did beleivers. You are making an unsubstantiated claim if you think that lack of evidence means evidence of non-existence. As I say, prove that GWB took a shit in the last month, provide evidence. You can't! But that does not provide a lack of evidence that he did, in fact its commen sense that he did. Its also common sense that some atheists have made innapropriate comments on DU, like anybody else. That's the reality here.

[beam me up scottie]

104. Okay, this disconnect is getting too damn scary. Are there two of you?

[salvorhardin]

106. And you don't see how claiming that atheists made death threats is inappropriate?

Amazing. You must be wearing the industrial Discovery Institute brand intellectual blinders tonight.

[lvx35]

108. Its the truth of what I saw.

I made clear in post #31 exactly what I saw, as soon as somebody asked. Its the reality, the truth, and I stand by it. I see no reason why I should claim something other than the truth, or why you should find it offensive to face the facts that atheists screw up like anybody else.

[salvorhardin]

109. Truth, facts or bullshit?

I think it's pretty clear which category your posts fall into. Here's a hint. Try apologizing next time. It works wonders.

[lvx35]

111. Here's a hint, study some logic.

If you did that, you would see that your assertion that my post was BS is based on the following idea:

It is impossible for anybody, atheist or otherwise, to get an account on DU and post intimidating innapropriate remarks against religious people.

Do you really think that is true? Do you really think that NOBODY in this nation could get a fresh DU account, post some nasty intimidating comments claiming to be an atheist on DU? (whether they are or not) Because that's really the only grounds you have for saying my statement is BS.

This conversation has become a joke. Bye.

[salvorhardin]

114. If I were to anthropomorphize the conversation

This conversation has become a joke.

If I were to anthropomorphize the conversation, it might say something like, "Takes one to know one."

[Evoman]

115. I WANT TO SHOOT A CHRISITAN

There...now Lvx35 has proof that atheists wants to shoot christians. Will you two grow up now? You've ruined a perfectly good thread.

On edit: Maybe my post will get this train wreck of a thread locked.

[salvorhardin]

117. Sorry if I don't care for strawmen n/t

[Evoman]

118. Yeah, me neither...but why keep going on and on. Tom

started this thread in good faith, and we are ruining it. Call her on her strawmen, then ignore her. Who's gonna believe that anyone here advocated shooting believers, anyways? She (he?) is just diggin her own hole.

[Random_Australian]

121. I agree. I think it is time to end this.

[salvorhardin]

122. Precisely my point n/t

[beam me up scottie]

72. Thanks, I was just going to post that.

Tsk tsk tsk.

[salvorhardin]

40. Death threats?

Look, if you make an assertion then don't be surprised when people ask you to defend it. I would hope any person making death threats on DU, whether atheist or not, would be summarily tombstoned because they are in no way representative of the atheists or theists that post at DU. In which case such posts are not worthy of even being brought up. If you have posts supportive of your position, please post relevant excerpts. Otherwise we can only assume you are just erecting straw men.

[lvx35]

67. So here is the question

Do you think atheists NEVER make nasty posts on DU? Do you think an atheist has NEVER made a nasty post that has been deleted?

[salvorhardin]

73. You claimed atheists made death threats

Unless you care to prove it, that's a strawman argument.

[beam me up scottie]

84. Yes, and he said death threat"s", as in more than one.

Still waiting for that evidence.

[lvx35]

86. I'm waiting for my evidence that GWB took shit in the last month!

I TOLD you I want TP and pictures...Where's the evidence????

[beam me up scottie]

89. You accused DU atheists of committing crimes, back it up.

Otherwise that makes you a criminal.

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beam me up scottie]

94. And deeper and deeper he digs...

:rofl:

[beam me up scottie]

96. This is really a new low.

I don't even think C_L did anything this bad.

[salvorhardin]

46. Oops.

Self-deleted. Thinking out loud. That was against DU rules. Apologies.

[beam me up scottie]

48. I hope it stays up for a while.

I want everyone to see this.

[Random_Australian]

99. Close, and a hit or two, but no cigar. (And some questions)

1)

"comparing belief in God to Mother Goose. This quote implies that religious beliefs are infantile"

Ok - which mother goose are we talking about?

"The implication being that Christians and other people of faith, with their charitable outreach programs and so forth, are in the business of keeping humanity in "helpless degradation""

Actually, it looked to me a lot more like power hungry using the churches for their own profits, or the class karma keeping the poor in check, or the oppression of the Shia by the Sunni, rather than belief itself. We must be wary of how these statements are interpreted.

2)

So, now you say that everyone is the same, and we can all be nice or nasty. That's odd, that is not what I was getting from

"I like beating up on Christians and other believers (...) you can scream "hypocrite!" (...) you can pretend you've scored some sort of rhetorical point. (...) and since it's not my personal beliefs getting savaged I feel better about myself."

As, it would appear, an impersonation of a general atheist, like the ones the OP quoted.

"The argument that being an atheist (or believer) prevents you from saying nasty things is too absurd to really have to disprove through example"

I can reword that.

The argument that bieng an atheist (or believer) prevents you from saying nasty things was not made at all


"you are relying on nobody wanting to do a research project to disprove the sweeping statement that they don't."

Big swing no ding! The assumption was that atheists do just as much as everyone else. This means that if what you seemed to be implying about atheists with "Because if they answer you in kind you can scream "hypocrite!" " was true, and that atheists were different from everyone else, then a quick search would provide a multitude of examples.

"Let me tell you something about knowing how people think: You atheists are the undisputed champions in my experience"

Is this not a contradiction in terms? You say - 'Atheists think they know how others think' - and how do you know this? Because you know how others think.

"I've had so many atheists disprove a ridiculous God I don't believe in that it makes my head spin"

I've had more ridiculous proofs of things than most on this earth, and a goodly share of those was "proving" ridiculous gods. However, do you see me claiming that believers are stupid because of it? Do you? Because, if you do, please, show me where I have.

"Generally, hardline atheists take the most vile, fundamentalist forms of religion and use it to define all religion, and when we inform them that what they are disprove is not our beliefs, they equate what we say to redefining our beliefs"

Congratulations. Except you are arguing against pretty much normal people. Do I say - "Hardline fundamentalists take the most vile form of religion and practice it - therefore the believers on DU are really nasty" No, I don't.

And finally - grab all the champagne you've got - because here comes a screamer:

"Let me make this perfectly clear: Spirituality makes no sense to you because you don't get it (...) but you will NEVER disrespect people of faith again"

This is where you:
- Say you know what I think. No chance , buddy.

- Tell me that I have not had these stupid spiritual experiences. Boy, did you pick the wrong person to say that to - delusions, hallucinations, religious experiences, paranoia, catastrophising, you name it, I've probably had it.

- You tell me that I disrepect people of faith. At which point, I conclude my post by saying that while I have utter respect and encouragement for belief, I have little patience for people telling me how I think and how I don't.

[lvx35]

107. reply

Actually, it looked to me a lot more like power hungry using the churches for their own profits, or the class karma keeping the poor in check, or the oppression of the Shia by the Sunni, rather than belief itself. We must be wary of how these statements are interpreted.

word.

So, now you say that everyone is the same, and we can all be nice or nasty. That's odd, that is not what I was getting from

"I like beating up on Christians and other believers (...) you can scream "hypocrite!" (...) you can pretend you've scored some sort of rhetorical point. (...) and since it's not my personal beliefs getting savaged I feel better about myself."

You are confusing me with the person who posted those remarks, that was a different poster.

Is this not a contradiction in terms? You say - 'Atheists think they know how others think' - and how do you know this? Because you know how others think.

Do not quote "Atheists think they know how others think" because its not what I said, its a misquote if you put quotes there. I said that Atheists have disproved Gods I don't beleive in, refering to dialog.


I've had more ridiculous proofs of things than most on this earth, and a goodly share of those was "proving" ridiculous gods. However, do you see me claiming that believers are stupid because of it? Do you? Because, if you do, please, show me where I have.

Nope. Nor do I claim atheists are stupid, do I?


Congratulations. Except you are arguing against pretty much normal people. Do I say - "Hardline fundamentalists take the most vile form of religion and practice it - therefore the believers on DU are really nasty" No, I don't.

You don't say that because believers on DU aren't hardline fundamentalists.

To your final points: If you have had these spiritual experiences, you would not be calling them stupid. You would not be calling the most important experiences many people had stupid. That's the bottom line.

[Random_Australian]

112. Grark! I had not noticed the change in posters, I am afriad.

That's who the quotes came from that weren't yours.

"You don't say that because believers on DU aren't hardline fundamentalists"

Exactly the same way the DU atheists aren't. Sheesh me quackery!

Ah, I see you didn't call the atheists stupid. You only said THIS:

"Oh ho! Let me tell you something about knowing how people think: You atheists are the undisputed champions in my experience"

Ok, I change what I say to "and you don't see me insulting 'you believers' because I have heard silly proofs do you"

There you go.

And as for this gem:

"If you have had these spiritual experiences, you would not be calling them stupid. You would not be calling the most important experiences many people had stupid. That's the bottom line."

Now let me make this perfectly clear.

The idea that I call people stupid based on their spiritual experiences is completely and utterly wrong. You re-iterate these claims without any evidence.

[lvx35]

116. Time for a bit clarification of my own...

You clarifications are well taken, I appreciate them. But time for one of my own. When I said:

"If you have had these spiritual experiences, you would not be calling them stupid

the "them" I am refering to is the experiences themselves. (you said "stupid spiritual experiences") I am saying they can be profound, moving, they can shape people's lives. So let it be known that I am not claiming that you said anybody is stupid.

Regarding the silly proofs, I have not heard you diss anybody over that, but I wouldn't blame you if you did, some of them are downright hillarious. :)

Anyway, I need to sleep. Peace.

[Random_Australian]

120. Ah, ok, don't worry about me saying that.

I look at them the same way I look at all the other strange things I've seen, from feelings to delusions (though nothing ever went wrong with my kinesthesis, now I think of it) - I despise them.

It's something I do with anything that generates with a certain pattern - it is to keep me from wanting them and leaving the real world.

And don't think that I'm ignoring God's messages or anything, I've checked and I can vary them predictably with how my mind changes, so that is a very good indication that they are from inside my head. :)

[NMMNG]

127. Whether this was to RA or atheists in general I'm going to address it

Let me make this perfectly clear: Spirituality makes no sense to you because you don't get it. That's okay, that does not make you a bad person, but you should not presume that you do get it.


I get spirituality just fine. I am a deeply spiritual person even though I am no longer a theist nor am I religious.

I also "get" religion (not to be confused with spirituality) even though I'm no longer religious.

I'm sure many of my fellow atheists get both spirituality and religion even if they don't understand how or why some people feel the need/desire for them.

Unfortunately it seems that many believers/religious people don't get atheists. They get their stereotypical notions or their religion based perceptions of what an atheist is, but they don't actually "get" atheists.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

131. I know I'm late to this rather dreadful party

but Buffy, can you elaborate on being spiritual and an atheist? This is a category I have never considered and it sounds very intriguing.

Makes me wonder sometimes whether it is semantics more than anything that separates us....

hence threads like this?

[StellaBlue]

2. funny you should mention that

one of my good friends has recently taken to calling himself "a born-again atheist" and an "evangelical atheist" after reading Dawkins' "The God Delusion".

[ladywnch]

6. I personally don't like beating up on Christians and the like

I don't have a problem with them believing what ever the hell makes them happy, gets them through their day and helps them sleep at night.....its fine with me

I JUST DON'T WANT IT BEING FORCED ON ME. or having it decided how I am allowed to live MY life.

I categorically disagree with them on just about everything but categorically believe they have a right to believe it and practice it.....just keep it to yourselves and out of policy making.

I do feel kinda sorry though that they need to cling to such mythology to get through their life.. I enjoy mythology, but I don't build my life around it.

[durrrty libby]

11. Can I give you a big Amen ?

I agree with every single word

:hi: :loveya:

[Richard D]

7. Personally for me,

being born once was quite enough, thank you.

[ananda]

10. re dogs

I worry more about a dog that isn't leashed but doesn't strain,
than I do about a dog that is leashed and strains.

[cosmik debris]

14. Since you are hot on quotes,

Can you tell me who gets credit for originating the saying "Thank God I'm an atheist"? Or the phrase "Devout Atheist"? Just curious.

thnx

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

15. I'm not that hot on quotes, but I'll bet you could google the phrases

and find your answers.

:toast:

[cosmik debris]

17. I'll let you know

I'm really sort of lazy and I don't hesitate to ask people who might have answers.

[cosmik debris]

18. Here is one

I'm an atheist and I thank God for it.
George Bernard Shaw

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

20. Thanks! it sounds true with the Shaw name attached.

[cosmik debris]

21. It turns out EVERYBODY has said "Devout Atheist"

So I gave up on that. It was only idle curiosity. Or is that Idol curiosity?

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

22. LOL (big groan) n/t

[Evoman]

119. Oh god...I no longer want to shoot christians...I want to shoot atheists who make puns,

Oh god...I no longer want to shoot christians...I want to shoot atheists who make puns,

[cosmik debris]

124. I apologize

I most humbly and sincerely beg your forgiveness.

[ooglymoogly]

16. great find

gore vidals dry wit is akin to oscar wild...i did a belly laugh when i read your post.

[beam me up scottie]

19. Ha! I got it right the first time around!

Thanks for posting the link, I like this one:

Thomas Jefferson:

Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.

Too bad the people who are so bent out of shape in the Dawkins thread didn't read that.

You'd think he popped their balloons and stole their blankies.

[neebob]

27. G.K. Chesterton also said

"Those who believe in nothing will believe anything." He was a Catholic, if I'm not mistaken.

[Dorian Gray]

28. I'm a little confused

I've read Orthodoxy by GK Chesterton, and he's a famous political and theological philosopher. I don't believe he's an atheist, so I'm unsure where that quote originated.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

126. Yes, G.K. Chesterton was a devout Catholic, and his comment

may actually have been directed at the kind of dog who becomes the "god" of the household.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

128. I know Mother Goose personally.

Wow, this thread got U G L Y.