Is Shaquille O' Neal Really a Great Player

[erpowers]

For years I have heard that Shaquille O' Neal is one of the most dominant center ever and one of the greatest centers ever. At this point I question whether is actually one of the most dominate players ever and if he is even one of the greatest centers ever. I would like to point out this has nothing to do with Shaquille's play this season or in any of the recent seasons. I question those two comments about Shaquille because I recently (this morning) did some research on Bill Russel. I had known for some time that Russell had won 13 NBA championship and that caused me to question whether Shaquille was overrated. When I decided to post the question this morning I decided to make sure Russell was a center. So I did some research and found that Russell was indeed a center. I had always thought he was, but I was not sure.

What I learned somewhat surprised/amazed me. Even though Bill Russell is about 3 inches shorter and about 100 pounds lighter than O'Neal in my opinion O'Neal's career pales in comparison to Russell. At 6'10' and 220 pounds Russelly had 21,620 career rebounds in a thirteen year career. O' Neal is in his 14th season and only has a little more than half that number. In addition, in his 13 years in the NBA Russell only lost titles to two teams and one coach. In 1958 the St. Louis Hawks beat the Celtics and in 1967 the Philadelphia 76ers beat the Celtics. Both teams were coached by Alex Hannum. Furthermore, Russell won two NCAA titles when he was in college. As far as I know Shaquille did not win any championships in college. Beyond that Russell had 12 season consecutive seasons in which he had 1,000+ rebounds. Around that time he had three games where he had 49+ rebounds in a single game (he had 51 rebounds in one game and 49 rebounds in two games).

I know very few people if any are saying Shaquille O' Neal is the greatest player to play the game, but with players like Russell having played in the past is is right to say Shaquille is even one of the most dominate players/centers ever. I also know that Shaquille has some great numbers, but with the numbers put up by Russell and Chamberlain (23,924 rebounds) is the media pumping up shaquille and some of the other stars of this current era.

[PDittie]

1. Not any more.

Not even the best player on his team. Looks like he may help his team get to the Finals once more time, though. But when they lose to the Pistons, I wouldn't be surprised if he retired.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

32. .

But when they lose to the Pistons, I wouldn't be surprised if he retired.


How Did that work out?

[realisticphish]

2. well

at lest he's the most intimidating, if not the most productive :shrug:

[Lefty48197]

3. He's no Bill Russell

but he still may be one of the top ten best centers of all time.

[fishwax]

4. definitely one of the best

Bill Russell was great, maybe better, but that doesn't mean Shaq isn't one of the best. Russell may have been shorter, but the league average was much shorter then, too, so that must be taken into consideration. I think Russell was the greatest defensive center in history, without a doubt.

I don't think Shaq is the greatest center of all time, but I do think he's one of the greatest.

[NJ Democrats]

5. Shaq is one of the best Centers Ever

and one of the best players. i don't think he has EVER been blocked and is regularly doubled and even tripled teamed. In fact the Nets picked up some guy right before this series to help out with Shaq. It is harder to win championships with free agency, yet he won 3 in a row. It was was him and not Kobe as Kobe lost in the 1st round and missed the playoffs w/o Shaq. Shaq got to a finals and an eastern conference finals w/o Kobe. He won a gold medal and has been an all-star like 12 times. He has won at least one MVP. Shaq may have 10,000 less Rebounds but he has 10,000 more points scored. Both have double-doubles for there careers: 15 Points and 22 Rebounds for Russell and 26 and for Shaq. Furthermore back in Russell's day they played the game differently.

[nolabels]

17. 'Ericka' getting the last laugh at Shaq's expense

Yea, that was yesterday, what have you done for me lately?

Shaq and his famous one liners, what comes around, goes around

'Ericka' getting the last laugh at Shaq's expense
RANDY GALLOWAY
In My Opinion

Shaquille O'Neal struggled to the worst playoff performance of his career Sunday night, scoring just five points on 2-for-5 shooting.


DALLAS -- Call it the Revenge of "Ericka."

Also call it an NBA Finals that will need a dramatic reversal, and quick, to reach beyond the four-game minimum.

If it smells like a sweep, follow your nose.

But the Mavericks' total dominance thus far should come as no surprise.
(snip)
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/basketball/nba/golden_state_warriors/14799043.htm

I am so glad that load left the LA basin. Now that he is floundering we can really lay the wood to him and payback is a mother

btw, was he really too busy pouting to talk to anybody sunday night after the game :cry:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

33. LOL

I am so glad that load left the LA basin. Now that he is floundering we can really lay the wood to him and payback is a mother

LOL

Kiss the rings.....

[TroubleMan]

6. Definitely one of the top three centers ever.

Right now he's a good player most of the time, and a great player in spots or sometimes for a whole game. He's old and injured and his body has taken a lot over the years.

[burythehatchet]

9. Chamberlain, Russell, Jabbar

I wouldn't put O'Neal in the top anything.

[TroubleMan]

10. No...he's better than Jabbar.

Better passer, better rebounder, and better at drawing fouls. The only thing that Jabbar has on O'Neal is scoring. It helps out that Jabbar played with great point guards who knew how to get him the ball.

[Lefty48197]

11. When Jabbar was Buck, they beat Chamberlain's Lakers for the title

Do you really think a Shaq team could have beaten Chamberlain's Lakers? No way in hell.

[idlisambar]

7. Yes

When Shaquille is referred to as most "dominant" ever, the reference is not so much to his contributions in terms of points and rebounds, but his raw physical abilities. His size, strength, and quickness (for his size) allow him to physically bully opponents to a greater extent than any other player that has played.

Concerning the question of Shaq being the greatest player or even greatest center, I would put him in the top 10 for players, and top 5 for centers. However, I think a case can be made that Shaq at his peak (1999--2002) was as good as any other player at his peak that has played the game. I remember during the 2002 finals the Net's Byron Scott when asked whether he'd choose Jordan or Shaq to build a team around, he said without hesitation "Shaq"....

“He's 7-1, 350 pounds, and they come around once in a lifetime. I'm not saying you're going to find two or three M.J.s, but it's really hard to find a player with the strength, size and agility Shaq has,” Scott said.

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2002/06/07/spt_scotts_coaching.html

[burythehatchet]

8. Size does equate talent.

Ever since his LSU days I have contended that size and strength do not equate to talent. He is an average to below average basketball player with tremendous size and strength. Just my opinion.

[northzax]

12. but if talent is the physical ability to do something

and size and strength are part of that equation, why discount them? part of Jordan's ability was jumping, and that is a talent (yes, you can build in it, but no matter how hard you work, you're never going to have a 35 inch vertical unless you were born with that potential)

there is no doubt that Shaq was lazy in the mid-early part of his career, and it slowed him down as he hit his late 20s and began to get banged up early in the season. He could have been better. he could have maximized his physical talents more.

Think of it this way. Could you imaging Jordan doing anything more with his physical gifts? Magic? Bird? Stockton? Olajuwon? Iverson? Barkley? (no, they don't all belong in the same breath, but they all maximised what they were given) imagine Shaq, early on, with the work ethic of even a moderate NBA talent, struggling to get by in the league. Imagine if he'd had someone like Horace Grant working with him, saying, 'one more lap, one more hour in the weight room, twn more free throws' instead of being a beast for 3 years, he would have been one for 6 or 7, and there would be no question that he belonged in the pantheon of greats in Springfield, hell, he'd be this decade's Jordan, with another year or two of total dominance of the league in front of him.

but, alas. it didn't happen. Shaq may well be the single greatest physical specimen to ever play in the NBA, but he's not the greatest center ever, because he didn't want to be.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

13. Hmmmm

res ipsa loquitur

Shaquille O'Neal


Started for the Eastern Conference in the 2005 All-Star Game
Named to the 2004-05 All NBA First Team
Led the league in field-goal percentage in 2004-05 (.601)
Named Player of the Month in March, 2005
Was named as a reserve to the Western Conference All-Star team and was named the 2004 All-Star Game MVP
Selected in 1996 as one of the 50 Greatest Players in NBA History
Three-time NBA Finals MVP after leading the Lakers to back-to-back-to-back NBA Finals victories (2000, 2001, 2002)
Voted the 1999-2000 Most Valuable Player (regular season) by media
Four-time All-NBA First Team selection (1997-98, 1999-2000, 2000-01, 2001-02), two-time All-NBA Second Team selection (1994-95, 1998-99) and three-time All-NBA Third Team selection (1993-94, 1995-96, 1996-97)
Two-time NBA All-Defensive Second Team selection (1999-2000, 2000-01)
Nine-time All-Star selection (1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 2000, 2001, 2002)
Co-MVP of the 2000 NBA All-Star Game after tallying 22 points and nine rebounds
Two-time regular season scoring champion after posting 29.3 ppg (1994-95) and 29.7 ppg (1999-2000)
Led the league in field-goal percentage five times (1993-94, 1997-98, 1998-99, 1999-2000, 2000-01)
Won the 1999-2000 IBM Award, determined by a computerized rating that measures a player's overall contribution to a team
Named 1992-93 NBA Rookie of the Year, and to the NBA All-Rookie First Team, after averaging 23.4 ppg, 13.9 rpg and 3.53 bpg
Member of gold-medal winning U.S. Olympic team in Atlanta (1996) and World Championship team in Toronto (1994)

[TriSec]

14. Overrated

I've always thought O'Neill was overrated. I'm here in Boston, so I've seen the greatness referenced in the opening post (add another, BTW. Bill Russell was also part of the Gold-Medal winning Team USA at the '56 Olympics....and in the first title loss in '58, he spent a fair portion of that season on the injured list.)

In the end, what truly defines a champion is his devotion to 'team' and a common goal, often ignoring his own stats for the common good. O'Neill is just another selfish, modern big man. Bill Russell would have wiped the floor with him. (check Russell's stas vs. Chamberlain).

[DemocratSinceBirth]

15. Russel's Teams Usually Won But Chamberlain Had The Stats

so I don't know what your point is there:






http://espn.go.com/nba/s/2003/0116/1493700.html


As far as Bill Russell "wiping the floor" with O'Ne(a)l given the fact that he was giving away four inches and one hundred pounds there is a better than even chance he would have got physically hurt.


That being said O'Neal's a classy guy and says Russell is the greatest center of all time. That's classy because if they played each other in their primes Shaq would own him. It's just physics.

[genie_weenie]

16. Shaq has no game.

Other than to camp under the hoop and use his size and strength and the refs blind eyes to his traveling and offensive fouls.

[LisaM]

24. THANK YOU.

I get tired of his just hanging around in the paint.

[zonkers]

28. You are woefully misinformed.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

35. Uh No

"People think it's all power with Shaq, but they're wrong," says 86-year-old Pete Newell, the big-man guru who coached against Wilt and who schooled Shaq at his offseason camp in the early '90s. "Here's what I've seen do in one game: Bank off the glass. Little lob hook in the paint. Step-back move on the baseline. Quick spin move when he comes out on the other side to shoot. And a neat step-through move when he was doubled or tripled. You go over the history of centers and can you remember anyone, except maybe Hakeem Olajuwon, showing all that? And Hakeem didn't have the power game. I don't like to rate players according to who's best, but none of the great centers had Shaq's moves and counters, and none of them, including Wilt, had his strength."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/jack_mccallum/news/2002/06/12/insider/

[BulletproofLandshark]

18. Sheer athleticism has always been Shaq's game

IMO, a large part of Shaq's dominance over his first 10 years or so had to do with having an advantage in size and strength against everyone he came across. But he's 34, and his body hasn't held up as well in the last few years. The Shaq of 1994-95 would've brushed aside the double teams that stop him cold now. He's still a great player, but probably not an elite player anymore.

[Redbear]

19. Shaq is arguably the most overrated NBA player ever

He is huge and strong, which automatically equals healthy points and rebounds, but his actual basketball skills go from average (interior defense, post moves) to poor (free throws and defense when his man goes outside).

Last night, Hubie Brown was discussing how late in the game Riley had to take O'Neal out of the game because there was no one on the floor for the Mavs that Shaq was capable of guarding.

[rinsd]

21. Well, he is way on the downside of his career and he's beat up

Heat Shaq doesn't hold a candle to Laker Shaq or Magic Shaq so to call him overrated in terms of history is a bit harsh. (Besides you're wrong the most overrated player ever Derrick Coleman ;-))

This year has been a particularly disappointing one for him.

[Redbear]

22. Reasonable point. Most Over-hyped may be a better phrase.

If you compare words printed or broadcast about a player to what they actually accomplished on the court, I think Shaq is up among the leaders. I think Shaq has had 5 times as much written and said about him as Tim Duncan or Steve Nash, but they are both as good or better than him.

I admit a bias that I don't see taking a pass 4 feet from the basket, knocking defenders out of the way with your body and dunking is much of a basketball skill. Someone who thinks that is on the same skill level as what Nash does would rate Shaq much higher than I do.

[rinsd]

23. Yeah but Nash coun't defend a one armed player ;-) (nt)

[genie_weenie]

25. That's why Shaq had to get away from Kobe

Kobe was outspoken about being better than Shaq back when Shaq was suppossed to be "dominant" now he can play the second fiddle to Wade and be complimented.

"Mummble, mummble, mummble."

Here's the game plan Shaq, you stand under the hoop (don't worry the refs won't call you for 3 second violations) we throw you the ball, you toss aside the smaller players near you and dunk the ball. Of course if they foul you the whole world will see how you are a 50% free throw shooter at best...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. Wrong...

Kobe without Shaq-FIRST ROUND PLAYOFF EXIT

Shaq without Kobe= CHAMPIONSHIP

[rinsd]

20. You are a master at this game

Though you lay on the naivete on a little thick, you do start interesting debates.

"At this point I question whether is actually one of the most dominate players ever and if he is even one of the greatest centers ever."

One of the greatest centers ever. Russell, Chamberlin & Shaq in that order with Shaq and Karem very close.

In terms of dominant players, Shaq literally shook the power strucutures both times he switched conferences. He was the best player in the NBA post-Jordan until a couple of years ago as he began the decline we see today. I would put him in the top 10 dominant players of all time.

See the whole point of this is the qualifier "one of", I have never heard someone say Shaq is the greatest ever.

[MagniCynic]

26. Take away his size and what are you left with?

Dominance and talent are two totally separate things. While he may be one of the most dominant centers of all time, he's not even close to being even in the top 10 for most talented centers. Take away his size and what do you have? A mediocre center (talent wise) at best. The guy STILL hasn't gotten beyond a high school level at making free throws.

[trumad]

27. Yeah---but would you want him on your team?

uh huhh.

[Scurrilous]

29. Shaq...

...a man of his word.



"I am going to bring a championship to Miami. I promise you."

[crimson333]

30. he has

gotten every nba team he has played on into the finals

i like shaq starting from his lsu days

[cboy4]

31. Yea, he totally overrated. He only helps win championships wherever

he plays. :eyes:

Over the past decade, there have been other centers who are just as tall, but few, if any compare to Shaq's raw power. Why is that?

Yea, Shaq sucks from the line, but come on, he is a great player.

(And this post is from a guy who roots for Sacramento and fuckin hates the Lakers and Shaq for what he always did to us in the playoffs)