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Prop 8 Ruling Will Come Out Soon! It's Prediction Time!

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t0dd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-20-09 02:05 AM
Original message
Prop 8 Ruling Will Come Out Soon! It's Prediction Time!
Edited on Wed May-20-09 02:15 AM by t0dd
Sweet Melissa
http://www.thesweetmelissa.com/sweet_melissa/2009/05/prop-8-ruling-will-come-out-soon-.html

Constant Readers,

Oh boy, do I have some gossip for y'all! I heard from a pretty damn good source that a decision on the Prop 8 case will come down this Thursday!

There are only 2 weeks until the June 3 deadline, so a decision will be coming soon even if the scuttlebutt ain't true.

What will happen?

At oral arguments, I'll admit that things were not looking great for proponents of same-sex marriage. Ken Starr did a great job arguing that Prop 8 is legitimate and Jerry Brown sent a buffoon to argue one of the most compelling arguments for shooting down Prop 8.

But while one can never be 100% sure, I believe that Prop 8 will be declared unconstitutional. And it will be along the same voting line as the In Re Marriage Cases (IRMC) decision.

Here's why...

Remember that California voters passed Prop 22 back in 2000, which added language to the California Family Code declaring that only Opposite Marriage is ok in this state. That language was eliminated from our code by the IRMC decision.

In IRMC, the Court found that there was a conflict between Prop 22 and the equal protection clause of the State Constitution - and the State Constitution always beats a regular ol' law. Prop 8 put the Opposite Marriage language IN the Constitution, and the winner between the internally conflicting provisions is less clear.

Despite this difference, Prop 22 and Prop 8 both require a hard look at the "will of the people" versus the equal protection clause of the State Constitution. That is why the IRMC decision is informative: how the Justices viewed voter intent to pass Prop 22 can shed light on how they'll look at Prop 8.

A few preliminary issues:

1) Background on the basic legal issues of the Prop 8 case is here and an essay describing the basics of the IRMC decision is here. I'll try not to repeat too much.

2) I won't be addressing retroactivity in this post. I already did a podcast discussing the reasons why same-sex marriages performed last year between June and November are probably safe.

Let's begin.

The California State Supreme Court has 7 Justices (don't call them "Judges"!) so the side that can get 4 votes wins.

Justices Baxter and Chin voted against same-sex marriage in the IRMC case and at oral argument on March 5, 2009 neither seemed interested in changing their minds when it comes to Prop 8.

Note that Chin kept asking about whether we could get rid of the term "marriage" altogether and just declare same and opposite marriages "civil unions."

Justices Moreno and Werdegar voted in favor of same-sex marriage in the IRMC case and at oral argument, appeared supportive of it again this time.

So, we got 2-2.

As for the other 3...

Justice Corrigan: Asked a number of insightful questions at oral arguments which led some pundits to believe that she might actually vote to strike down Prop 8. I don't buy that. Check out these quotes from her IRMC decision:


In my view, Californians should allow our gay and lesbian neighbors to call their unions marriages. But I, and this court, must acknowledge that a majority of Californians hold a different view, and have explicitly said so by their vote. This court can overrule a vote of the people only if the Constitution compels us to do so. Here, the Constitution does not.

The voters who passed Proposition 22 not long ago decided to keep the meaning of marriage as it has always been understood in California. The majority improperly infringes on the prerogative of the voters by overriding their decision.

If there is to be a new understanding of the meaning of marriage in California, it should develop among the people of our state and find its expression at the ballot box.


Don't look for her to change her position. She'll likely vote to uphold Prop 8.

Justice Kennard: Was hard on the same-sex marriage proponents. No question. But you can't just rely on that. For example, sometimes judges are tougher on the side they support because they want to make sure their own reasoning is sound.

She repeated a few times that, just because she was in favor of gay marriage in the IRMC decision doesn't mean she'll go for it in the Prop 8 case.

This scared a lot of people. But I went back and listened to the IRMC oral arguments and Kennard corrected a pro-gay-marriage attorney in that case who tried to say he knew how the Justices were going to vote. I think she just has a peeve against people making assumptions about how she'll rule.

Frankly, I would be very surprised if Kennard rules against gay marriage.

Exhibit A: Remember in 2004, when Mistermayor ordered the County Clerk to marry same-sex couples because he thought the law banning same-sex marriage was unconstitutional? And the State Supreme Court said, "Uh, WE are the deciders of what laws are constitutional. Not you. Those marriages from 2004 are null and void because they were performed before we said same-sex marriage is ok." That was the Lockyer case. Guess who argued that those marriages from 2004 should be recognized (not nullified)? Justice Kennard.

Exhibit B: In the IRMC decision, Kennard fully signed on with the majority, but wrote a whole separate decision where she addressed the issue of judicial power and responsibility. Here are some excerpts:



The architects of our federal and state Constitutions understood that widespread and deeply rooted prejudices may lead majoritarian institutions to deny fundamental freedoms to unpopular minority groups, and that the most effective remedy for this form of oppression is an independent judiciary charged with the solemn responsibility to interpret and enforce the constitutional provisions guaranteeing fundamental freedoms and equal protection.

Whether an unconstitutional denial of a fundamental right has occurred is not a matter to be decided by the executive or legislative branch, or by popular vote, but is instead an issue of constitutional law for resolution by the judicial branch of state government.
Indeed, this court’s decision in Lockyer made it clear that the courts alone must decide whether excluding individuals from marriage because of sexual orientation can be reconciled with our state Constitution’s equal protection guarantee.


Granted (as I wrote above) Prop 8 doesn't present exactly the same issue, but I think Kennard will continue to demonstrate an interest in protecting the fundamental rights of minorities by deciding that Prop 8 is unconstitutional.

Chief Justice George: Is harder to read than the others. At oral arguments, he started down the road that taking away the word "marriage" was just a small change - and thus a revision - not an amendment. But then Ken Starr got up to argue against gay marriage and basically said: no change to rights is ever a revision. (Only changes to government processes are revisions - things like getting rid of courts or the legislature.)

And George was all: Seriously? A majority of voters can take away any minority's rights and it's always constitutional?

Yep.

At that point, it looked like George lost faith in Starr's argument.

Remember too, that George wrote (okay, his clerks wrote) the majority opinion in the IRMC decision. Some excerpts on the "majority rule" issue:

Although defendants maintain that this court has an obligation to defer to the statutory definition of marriage contained in section 308.5 because that statute — having been adopted through the initiative process — represents the expression of the “people’s will,” this argument fails to take into account the very basic point that the provisions of the California Constitution itself constitute the ultimate expression of the people’s will, and that the fundamental rights embodied within that Constitution for the protection of all persons represent restraints that the people themselves have imposed upon the statutory enactments that may be adopted either by their elected representatives or by the voters through the initiative process.

As the United States Supreme Court explained in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette (1943) 319 U.S. 624, 638: “The very purpose of a Bill of Rights was to withdraw certain subjects from the vicissitudes of political controversy, to place them beyond the reach of majorities and officials and to establish them as legal principles to be applied by the courts. One’s right to life, liberty, and property, to free speech, a free press, freedom of worship and assembly, and other fundamental rights may not be submitted to vote; they depend on the outcome of no elections.”



Given the above, I think he'll vote against Prop 8.
That puts us at 3 in favor of Prop 8 (Baxter, Chin, Corrigan) and 4 against (George, Kennard, Moreno, Werdegar). Same as the IRMC decision.
Admittedly, there is no way to know what will happen in the Court's forthcoming decision.
But there is reason to hope.


I like this prediction. As she emphasizes, it'll all come down to George, Corrigan, and Kennard.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-20-09 02:19 AM
Response to Original message
1. If they uphold, I have a few new propositions I think we'll see on the ballot
One that changes the Constitution such that we can remove judges from the bench by the proposition process.

Another that removes the word marriage from all our state laws and the entire legal system, replacing all occurrences of that word with the phrase "Civil Unions".

And the last, a proposition that grants the rights of "civil union" to all residents of this state, and to confer such rights retroactively to include all who were legally married previously.

These should all pass on the same arguments being presented, or close to them.
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beyurslf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-20-09 07:26 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I want someone to propose 2 props in CA that are completely contradicting each
other just to see if both can pass and what would happen.
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Geoff R. Casavant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-20-09 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. That happened a few years back in Texas
Two competing voter initiatives, mutually incompatible with each other, and both passed by wide margins.

Eighty percent of Texans make the rest of us look bad.
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indigo32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-20-09 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. oh that is tooo rich
there are reasons why I've thought the voter initiative thing was stupid for a long time.... and this qualifies as one of them.
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GodlessBiker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-20-09 08:32 AM
Response to Original message
3. I may eat my hat, but I think they will overturn it.
Always the optimist, I am.
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ronnykmarshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-20-09 09:03 AM
Response to Original message
4. These are the only Supremes I have faith in
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joeybee12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-20-09 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. I wonder what happened to my 70's shag carpet!
It went to make dresses!
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ronnykmarshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-20-09 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. My brother used to call those dresses
"the upside down Q-Tip dresses"
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joeybee12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-20-09 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Perect!
B-)
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Aslanspal Donating Member (303 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-20-09 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
6. Jim Garlow on christian tv said 5-2 in their favor
Jim Garlow on the Christian TV show "Joni" said he thinks they win in court 5-2 that is 5 votes for and 2 against...I will try to get a link from the show.


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Aslanspal Donating Member (303 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-20-09 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. This is the Link for live stream
http://www.daystar.com/index.php/joni-home/63-joni-content/241-joni-home


What makes him think it is 5-2??? he seems real sure of himself
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