Why It Will Take Court Action

[bluedawg12]

Not to stir up five day old crap and ill will.

But I am not quite ready to go hat in hand begging heterosexuals to please disregard the hate baiting campaigns and to some how debate them into accepting that I am a human being.

It is not a racial issue, it is a cultural issue that the RW has played effectively, driving a wedge between gays and white,hispanic and black social conservatives who might otherwise be progressive and vote for Dems.

This article from the NY Times called it BEFORE prop8 was voted,back in Sept.

Please note that gay activists did outreach into other than white communities.

I have read some pretty ignorant anti-gay comments from inter net articles we have been discussing and I don't think the way to go is running around and asking others to validate our humanity. We are up against organized religion acting in concert in a political manner and funding their side handsomely to run ads and other dirty tricks.

Gays need to stick together, work on our solidarity, pride, and well being, and accept credible support from the straight community, and fight this legally through the Courts. Because I am a human being with rights and dignity...honest.

Also, it is different for GLBT's across the nation than in some parts of Calif or larger cities, where there is a strong GLBT community, many of us don't see another gay for weeks or more. The inter net can mitigate that because at least it gives us an on line community and many of us do feel isolated and frankly fearful living in areas where hate language may have traction.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/21/us/politics/21gay.html?_r=2&scp=10&sq=gay%20marriage%20ban&st=cse&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Same-Sex Marriage Ban Is Tied to Obama Factor

By JESSE McKINLEY
Published: September 20, 2008
SAN FRANCISCO — Could Senator Barack Obama’s popularity among black voters hurt gay couples in California who want to marry?

>>“It’s a Catch-22,” said Andrea Shorter, the campaign director of And Marriage for All, a coalition of gay and civil rights groups that recently started what it calls an education campaign around the state, focusing on blacks and framing the issue of same-sex marriage as one of civil rights.

The Obama/Proposition 8 situation appeals to those opposed to same-sex marriage, who are banking on a high turnout by blacks and conservative Latinos. “There’s no question African-American and Latino voters are among our strongest supporters,” said Frank Schubert, the co-campaign manager for Yes on 8, the leading group behind the measure. “And to the extent that they are motivated to get to the polls, whether by this issue or by Barack Obama, it helps us.”

To blunt that possibility, gay leaders and Proposition 8 opponents have been sponsoring casual events at restaurants in traditionally black neighborhoods in Los Angeles, meeting with black clergy members and recruiting gay black couples to serve as spokespeople on panels and at house parties and church events.

“This is black people talking to black people,” said Ron Buckmire, the board president of the Barbara Jordan/Bayard Rustin Coalition, a gay rights group in Los Angeles. “We’re saying, ‘Gay people are black and black people are gay. And if you are voting conservative on an antigay ballot measure, you are hurting the black community.

“If the white Christian evangelic movement believes they can do it alone, I’ve got news for you,” said the Rev. Samuel Rodriguez, the president of the National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference in Sacramento, which supports the measure. “They don’t have the sheer numbers to do it without the minority effort.”

”<<

[unpossibles]

1. I see it as requiring court action simply because I see it as an equal rights issue

The anti-equal rights side is breaking the 1st amendment (is there any non-religious reason they are against it?), and even more to the point, according to the 14th amendment: "The amendment requires states to provide equal protection under the law to all persons within their jurisdictions" (wikipedia).

No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Right there in the Constitution. I think this angle is what needs to be played, not only because it is the most direct way to put it to people who are not gay-friendly, but also because it directly references the struggle that non-whites also had (have) to go through for equality as well. This makes it an American issue, not a "gay issue."

If a State can offer legal protections and privacy to married couples, then how can it deny those same rights to GLBT couples, or anyone for that matter?

[bluedawg12]

2. Then we agree

It will be a Court issue and resolved through funding and supporting GLBT legal entities.

As far as, "is there any non-religious reason they are against it?"

Yes, I think there are secular arguments that they often spew:

Some still see homosexuality as a psychological problem despite opinions to the contrary by Professional bodies.
That's the - you gays are crazy and aren't due full rights for you crazy notion- argument

Others see it as in opposition to their own efforts to shore up families and support stable family life within their own communities and somehow, that's dangerous to their own families.
The - our families have problems and so you are not entitled to be thought of as families, argument.
Some examples of displacement of heterosexual problems onto gays: their high divorce rates and absentee fathers are somehow impacted negatively by stable gay home life?

Another,is that it's not "normal," and supporting gay marriage is supporting something out of the natural order of things, and thus, some how bad and will lead to more decay of society and polygamy, or wedding animals.

It will bring moral decay to our country, in the sense of some nationalistic Uber Fatherland notion.
We hear this when social conservatives talk in a derogatory manner about the "feminization" of our nation, when they use the term "nanny" State for certain societal or political values, it's alluded to tangentially in concept like"Effete, latte drinking, quiche eating, Merlot sipping....blah blah blah.." It's the Third Reichian Fascist ideal of manly men doing manly things in a manly way.

All of this and probably more than I can even think of at the moment are thrown out before the word religion and belief is thrown at us.

These beliefs and societal values are so ingrained in our society that going to the voters is foolish for us -which is why they did it--they played on latent homophobia across every segment of society and got themselves a coalition of cultural warriors.

I am wondering if more of us aren't feeling a little heterophobic these days?

Anyway, I think it will take Courts and that's what this whole prop8 thing has led me to conclude. It's almost a week, other than KO tonight (we'll see what he says), there has been a curious absence of any human rights outrage from any others on a national level besides gays. In the meantime, from what I am reading the rw steam roller is pushing forward with glee, they lost the GE but they're back in the cultural war business with far too many allies for me to think we are making a dent. We win three, lose one, and have to fight it all over again maybe in established States.

:grr:

[unpossibles]

3. "manly men doing manly things in a manly way"

...they should go to some of the bars I frequent if they want manly men doing manly things...lol


More seriously, I agree, and often am amazed at the subconscious sexism inherent in the homophobic attitudes and slurs - that to them, the epitome of an insult is to imply a man is less than a man and has the traits associated with women. What's even sadder is how many don't even notice it. I had some asshole call me a "bitch" the other day, and when I replied that he was a sexist bigot, he was confused why I said he was sexist.

Blech. I have to remember that societal evolution happens in baby steps, often sisyphusian steps but that we shall prevail, that the trend shows that we will move forward to true equality even if it's at a painfully slow pace. I also am saddened that more people can't seem to empathize - that they do not see a shadow of their own struggles in ours, that people who have also known oppression cannot see when others are oppressed.

Many do, so I am not saying it is impossible, just frustrating.

[bluedawg12]

4. OK, so it was a little corny

the manly men...thing.:)

The cultural resistance is pretty deep and very emotional. Also, while the GLBTQ community might feel a sense of solidarity, esp. at this time, it is nothing like the solidarity that organized religion brings to bear.
Especially when working in concert.

So, it's really going to come down to the gay community staying strong, focused,united, unwavering and supporting the legal efforts for human rights guaranteed by the Constitution.

That's not saying protests don't have a place to bring a human face to the matter and it's not saying there should not be dialog with various communities, but it isn't going to be handed over to us via a vote of our fellow citizens too often and in too many places, for a long time.

I think this election brings hope for a change from the dumbya Court appointees, while that will take years to bring fruition the alternative was unimaginable.