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Science-Based Medicine: What does “anti-vaccine” really mean?

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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-11 12:23 AM
Original message
Science-Based Medicine: What does “anti-vaccine” really mean?
Edited on Sun Jan-30-11 12:29 AM by HuckleB
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=7838

"...


Before I try to define “anti-vaccine” in more detail, I should take a moment to point out that, if there’s one thing I’ve learned in nearly six years blogging about vaccines and the pseudoscience used to attack them, it’s that no one — well, almost no one — considers himself “anti-vaccine.” This is very easily verifiable in the outraged reaction elicited from people like J.B. Handley (who simultaneously gloats about the decline in confidence in vaccines among parents), Jenny McCarthy, and Dr. Jay Gordon when they are described as “anti-vaccine. Jenny McCarthy, for instance, will reliably retort, “I’m not ‘anti-vaccine.’ I’m pro-safe vaccine.” An alternative response is, “What I really am is ‘anti-toxins’ in the vaccines.” Meanwhile, Dr. Gordon will say the same thing while simultaneously saying that he doesn’t give a lot of vaccines and foolishly admitting in the comments of a blog post that some parents have actually had to persuade him to vaccinate “reluctantly.”

The rule that those holding anti-vaccine views will rarely admit that they are anti-vaccine is a good one, although there are exceptions. It is not uncommon to find in the comments of anti-vaccine propaganda blogs like Age of Autism and anti-vaccine mailing lists comments proclaiming explicit anti-vaccine views loud and proud, with declarations that “I am anti-vaccine.” This dichotomy has at times caused problems for the more P.R.-savvy members of the anti-vaccine movement, as demonstrated two years ago at Jenny McCarthy’s “Green Our Vaccines” rally, where images of vaccines as toxic waste and weapons of mass destruction were commonplace. Even so, the “Green Our Vaccines” slogan and coopting the “vaccine safety” mantle have been very effective for the anti-vaccine movement. In particular, Barbara Loe Fisher has successfully portrayed her National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC) as being a “vaccine safety watchdog” group looking out for parents’ rights, this despite hosting an online memorial for vaccine victims and a deceptive and disingenuous vaccine ingredient calculator.

...

Distinguishing true anti-vaccine rhetoric from cluelessness is not always easy. To help, I’ll recap the eight characteristics I’ve just discussed:

1. Claiming to be “pro-safe vaccine” while being unrelentingly critical about vaccines
2. The “vaccines don’t work” gambit
3. The “vaccines are dangerous” gambit
4. Preferring anecdotes over science and epidemiology
5. Cherry picking and misrepresenting the evidence
6. The copious use of logical fallacies in arguing
7. Conspiracy mongering
8. Trying to silence criticism, rather than responding to it


Someone who is anti-vaccine will almost certainly use at least three or four of these techniques. The cranks at Age of Autism use all eight and then some. Indeed, when these eight techniques fail to suffice, they make up more.

..."



---------------------------------------------------------

This piece shows the phenomenon quite well. It can be observed all over the Internet, and it seems like a wise thing to be observant about the ways that those who oppose vaccines attempt to fool others into their beliefs.

As with any piece, if one chooses to take one small bite, one can attack the piece easily. However, if one chooses to attack this piece as a whole, it would be difficult to support one's attack.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-11 12:37 AM
Response to Original message
1. "8. Trying to silence criticism, rather than responding to it"
You mean like this?
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-11 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. So conspiracy theories are worthy of the health forum?
Edited on Sun Jan-30-11 12:39 AM by HuckleB
:shrug:

BTW, 5, 6 and 7 appear to apply to your response.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-11 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. You didn't address the question. Is that a good example of "trying to silence criticism?" n/t
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-11 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. That question is valid only if baseless conspiracy theories can be considered valid criticism.
Edited on Sun Jan-30-11 12:49 AM by HuckleB
Again, should conspiracy theories be considered valid on the health forum?
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mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-11 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. LOL
:rofl:
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-11 06:36 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. So pushing conspiracies and destroying any ability to actually discuss health issues is funny.
Edited on Sun Jan-30-11 06:42 AM by HuckleB
Got it.

:eyes:
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mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-11 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. It's funny when complete hypocrites get completely exposed. n/t
Edited on Sun Jan-30-11 10:53 AM by mhatrw
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Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-11 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. No, you have that wrong again

Explanations up the yin-yang, but it's still "OH NOES!1!! IZ MERCURY!11! IZ TOXIC!1!"

You want none of it. You are right, all science is wrong.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #14
45. Science is no different than any other religion, don't you know?
Hmmmm. Wait.

The existence of "cafeteria scientists," picking and choosing the wording they want to use to defend their preconceived fears might actually argue for that.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-11 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #10
25. That may be true.
Unfortunately, that doesn't explain the laughter you offered above.
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K8-EEE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-04-11 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #10
51. +1
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-11 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. .
:rofl:

It's funny to note that you feigned indignation about supposed negativity. Is giving a plus one to a baseless personal attack a positive way to discuss things?

:rofl:
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Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-11 04:00 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. You have to use more then one. nt

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BuddhaGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-11 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. +1
good find :thumbsup:
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-11 01:03 AM
Response to Original message
5. The annals of "I'm not anti-vaccine," part 4 (End of 2010 edition)
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/12/the_annals_of_im_not_anti-vaccine_part_4.php

Many links to more links in regard to this part of the anti-vaccine propaganda machine.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-11 07:26 AM
Response to Original message
9. recommend
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #9
43. Thank you.
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-11 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
12. "Science" these days is rarely
Science.

Ask the people in the gulf if you don't think that is so.

Fact: Mercury is toxic to humans

"Science": Mercury is NOT toxic when we say it isn't.

If you are mad about people dis'ing vaccines or whatever your pet project is, provide facts that support it, and accept the facts that are against it.

Otherwise you're just doing another variation of Faith Healing.
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Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-11 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Ever take chemistry?
Edited on Sun Jan-30-11 05:50 PM by Confusious
Sodium is explosive when it comes in contact with water. In a compound, it's a salt with completely different effects.

Mercury in a pure form IS toxic. Mercury in a compound has a completely different effect.

It's the people who have no science background and see "mercury" in anything and say "OMG IZ TOXIC!1!1!!!" who are the problem.

They get on their horse and act like experts ( jenny mcCarthy ) and muddy the waters, so the people who are actually trying to figure out what the problem is have to fight on two or more fronts, slowing everything down.
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mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-11 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. You are completely misinformed.
Mercury in a pure form IS highly toxic. Methyl mercury is ALSO highly toxic. Ethyl mercury is ALSO highly toxic.

Before lecturing people, you should check out the basic facts. Do you even know what compounds of mercury are in tuna? Do you even know what compounds of mercury are in vaccines?
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Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-11 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Didn't we have this discussion a few days ago?
Edited on Sun Jan-30-11 09:19 PM by Confusious
Don't you ever think "maybe I shouldn't embarrass myself again?" no, probably not.

"the CDC asserts there is no “scientific evidence of harm caused by the minute doses of thimerosal in vaccines"

http://www.findingdulcinea.com/news/health/2009/October...

You would have more problems with it as a topical antiseptic.

In 2005, the medical journal Dermatitis published results of a study in which individuals with known sensitivity to thimerosal were repeatedly injected with it. Only 9 percent of these patients experienced mild local reactions, while 91 percent experienced no reactions at all.


3g might cause a human problems. Many vitamins will cause problems at doses far below that.

It's a religion with you isn't it?

Got something else?
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-11 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #19
27. +1,000,000,000,000!!!
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mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-11 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #19
34. What the hell is the article you cited supposed to prove?
Here is the http://curtis.lassam.net/projects/hypersensitivity.pdf">article you cited in full.

All the study shows is that those who are topically allergic to thimerosal -- of which there are millions (the study says that thimerosal is the 5th most common skin contact allergen) -- do not typically get skin rashes when they are injected with thimerosal.

Here is how the authors of the study interpret the findings:

"A positive patch-test reaction to a vaccine component often does not necessarily preclude vaccine administration. Vaccine administration is possible despite patch-test positive results to the aforementioned chemicals because either the component is present in insignificant amounts that are insufficient to provoke elicitation or because the vaccine is given intramuscularly or subcutaneously—routes of administration not commonly associated with allergic contact dermatitis."

So when thimerosal never touches the skin, it generally does not cause skin rashes in the people it causes skin rashes in when it touches the skin. How surprising!

Wow, the fact thimerosal gives millions of people get skin rashes certainly proves that thimerosal is perfectly safe to inject in infants without ever testing any of them them for whether or not they too are allergic to the fifth most common skin contact allergen.
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Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-11 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. Done been proved
Edited on Mon Jan-31-11 09:36 PM by Confusious
you're wrong.
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Dan Burdick Donating Member (8 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-11 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #19
53. The Authority, Labeling and Projection
Edited on Sat Jul-16-11 08:53 PM by Dan Burdick
The Authority. The CDC. The Authority and their Science. - Then there are the others, the unqualified lay people. The Anti vaccine people, the people who claim their is a "conspiracy," those unscientific people with their conspiracy to be anti vaccine.

The Authority, the Inquisition. Members in high standing in God's Church. - Then there are the others the Apostate and Unclean, the Witchs, Heretics and Heathens. Proper interpretation of God's will comes from the due Authorities, who are above imputation by mere mortals.

CDC writes, "There is no convincing scientific evidence of harm caused by the minute doses of thimerosal in vaccines except for minor effects like swelling and redness at the injection site due to sensitivity to thimerosal."

Checking this use of The Authority in this propaganda we can notice the choice made of where to place the quotation marks.

The CDC Authority invoked here did not actually place itself in the position of delivering the Authority Position portrayed:

There is No "Scientific Evidence of harm caused by the minute doses of thimerosal"

In this use of The Authority they have framed the statement to seem more straightforward than the unedited one from the Authorities. The CDC chose to write, "no CONVINCING evidence." (Rather than: There is no evidence.)

Trust Us We're Experts. You and those others are unqualified laymen. Thank God for You that We have Come to Help You All! Our motives cannot be impuned as we are from the Official Authorities and can therefor only be Scientific and Altruistic. Anyone questioning us is Unscientific and AntiAltruistic. They are Anti-Vaccine! To be Anti-Vaccine is to be Anti-Medicine, Anti-Science and Anti-The Welfare of Babies! TOXIC Sludge is Good For You! The National Health Authority said so in A Report!
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laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-11 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. Uh huh...
:eyes:
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-11 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #53
61. Oh my goodness.
In other words, you have no evidence to back up whatever you are pushing, and, well, who the heck knows what this nonsense is supposed to be pushing. :rofl:
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-11 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Poster above covered Thiomersal degradation well enough
But I'd like to point out I was talking about mercury fillings in my example. Mercury is suddenly not toxic when we put it in our mouths?

But then again, Corexit was supposed to be safe to use in the Gulf too, right?
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Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-11 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Did I say that?
Edited on Sun Jan-30-11 09:34 PM by Confusious
"Mercury is suddenly not toxic when we put it in our mouths"

No.

You mentioned vaccines in your post. Nothing about fillings.

Try again.
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-11 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. I didn't have to "try again"
I said mercury was suddenly not toxic when "science" tells us it isn't. That is certainly the accepted line for mercury in our mouths.

My comment after was directed toward the poster's visible frustration with people who don't accept his views. As I said, whether it's vaccinations or any of his other pet projects, come bearing facts.

I'd be just as happy to tell you that I don't want ethyl mercury injected into me, but we've supposedly suspended that circa 2000ish, so moot point.
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Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-11 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. No, it's not.
Edited on Sun Jan-30-11 09:57 PM by Confusious
I've had a lot of dental work, and they don't replace my old mercury fillings with the new mercury fillings. They put the plastic stuff in.

The accepted line is is it's bad. But that's the pure mercury, not a mercury compound.
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-11 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Wrong, which is one of the hundreds of reasons why the accepted line
Should be thoroughly examined

At a media advisory to announce the final rule, the FDA's Susan Runner, DDS, said, ''The best available scientific evidence supports the conclusion that patients with dental amalgam fillings are not at risk for mercury-associated adverse health effects.

''Long-term clinical studies in adults and children age 6 and older with dental amalgam fillings have not established a causal link between dental amalgam fillings and adverse health effects,'' says Runner, the agency's acting director of the Division of Anesthesiology, General Hospital, Infection Control, and Dental Devices in the Center for Devices and Radiological Health.


http://www.webmd.com/oral-health/news/20090728/fda-mercury-fillings-not-harmful
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Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-11 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #24
33. Well, considering all the things science has done,
Edited on Mon Jan-31-11 02:18 PM by Confusious
including the computer you're using to badmouth it, I think the accepted line is better then listening to the bum screaming on the corner.

Besides, why would you think the FDA would do that? Most dentists have gone to using other methods, like my dentist, with the plastic fillings. Can't be the money. There is no money.

Just another bum on the corner theory thats been around for years and years. Shit, it was around when I was a child.
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-11 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. *laughs*
Science makes my computer work. I even know some of that science.

"Science" has us using Corexit as a "solution" to a preventable oil disaster. It also had us thinking the universe was slowing down in its expansion, or that x-raying our feet to verify shoe size was a good idea.

Lazy or money-driven science is is not the same as the scientific method, but it tries to steal the credibility of such.
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Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-11 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. Science made corexit
Edited on Mon Jan-31-11 09:35 PM by Confusious
It didn't say it should be used.

Never heard the universe was slowing down, and I worked for a company that worked with astronomers from 99-2009. But really how does that effect you? claustrophobic?

X raying your feet is overkill. But again, it never said it should be used like that

Science is a tool. Do you blame the tool when you can't fix your car? I think you have a little confusion about what science is.
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mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-11 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #21
35. We haven't suspended injecting mercury in our kids. We've just moved ethyl mercury
Edited on Mon Jan-31-11 02:54 PM by mhatrw
into the flu vaccinations that are now recommended annually or bi-annually for everyone over 6 months old.

Thimerosal is also still in DTwP vaccine, the Tetanus Toxoid vaccine, certain Td vaccines, the Meningococcal multi-dose vaccine and the Pneumococcal vaccine.

Other vaccines contain a trace amounts of thimerosal "from the manufacturing process."
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-11 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Thank god I don't have kids
And thanks for the heads up. No flu shots for me, but that's one more reason for "not"
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #37
59. delete, no need for me to just snark here and there. My apologies.
Edited on Mon Jul-18-11 08:49 PM by uppityperson
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Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-11 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Did someone say something?
Edited on Mon Jan-31-11 09:37 PM by Confusious
It sounded like a preacher selling a religion.

Just can't stop yourself can you?
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mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-11 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. Did someone say something?
It sounded like a base personal attack completely devoid of any substance.

Just can't stop yourself can you?
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Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. Well, you should know devoid of substance.
Edited on Tue Feb-01-11 11:53 PM by Confusious
That pretty much describes all of your arguments.

Not an attack. A fact.

Oh, BTW, repeating things back that I just said make you look like you're a 3rd grader. About the same level of your arguments.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. +1
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #12
60. ""Science": Mercury is NOT toxic when we say it isn't." True. When science has proven
that something is not toxic, it isn't. Glad you understand that science can show some things are toxic in some amounts, or in some combinations, while others aren't.

Rather like water is toxic if you breath it in, yet isn't if you drink a certain amount and have healthy kidneys. Sciend is wonderful.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-11 08:17 PM
Response to Original message
17. The reason people claim they're NOT anti-vaccine is because it's true.
Edited on Sun Jan-30-11 08:23 PM by mzmolly
Mr. Gorski's "financial interests" may explain his inaccurate venom?

http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/06/david-gorskis-financial-pharma-ties-what-he-didnt-tell-you.html

Your post sheds light on where many here get their talking points and their actual thoughts. I appreciate that.

However, being someone who thinks independently, I ask:

Why is it considered "dangerous" to question vaccines or their ingredients?

Why are vaccines the only sacred cow produced by pharma?

Why are we all supposed to pretend not one child has ever been seriously harmed by a vaccine, ever?

Why are we not allowed to try and identify these children?

Why must we pretend that formaldehyde doesn't cause DNA mutations if it's in a vaccine? Or, that mercury doesn't cause brain damage in the vulnerable?

Why the pretense that growing numbers of parents are choosing to opt out of vaccines, in spite of solid evidence to the contrary from the CDC?

The scientific evidence against formaldehyde and mercury are not anecdotal. And don't give me the the "dose makes the poison" routine unless you're prepared to cite the literature on the specifics. The only valid reason to use either, is because at one time we didn't know any better. NOW we do.

I've never thought that liberals would consider independent thought "dangerous." I never thought progressives would advocate against questioning corporate interests? In fact, I thought we prided ourselves on these things?

"Vaccine" the magical, mystical new "daddy in the sky" ... Except this time, he comes in a vial.

Peace out folks. I no longer wish to participate where thought is considered dangerous. :hi:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-11 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Deleted message
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-11 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #17
28. That is the funniest response I could have imagined.
:rofl:
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Dan Burdick Donating Member (8 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #17
58. Sincere Communication on Medicine and the Propagandosphere
Edited on Mon Jul-18-11 04:59 PM by Dan Burdick
"Why are vaccines the only sacred cow produced by pharma?" In context this surely seems correct to say; while - in the greater picture, the large corporations with their counter intelligence operations take many many strategic actions over the years to make many of their sales items "sacred cows" that we all should "pretend" (as you say) about - never question in certain ways (such as in depth, rationally, with effective and clear communication).

The "second generation" "antidepressants" (their words invented by them for us to use...) are sales products that additionally are not to be questioned.

Circa 1985 they (Psychiatry/Psychopharmacology/Drug Industry) were aware that Prozac (fluoxetine with 3 fluorine atoms per molecule) causes suicidal and homicidal ideation. (See: Internet search, "Baum Hedlund Law" hidden company documents fluoxetine).

In October of 1987 Prozac is Introduced to the U.S.A. Market by the F.D.A. and Eli Lilly (connected to the House of Bush).

In 1989 L-Trytophan the immediate precursor to Serotonin was banned by the F.D.A. for many years to come. (See: Internet search, Profits and Prozac. by Dean Wolfe Manders, Ph.D.)

In 2008 Fredrick Goodwin, M.D. former N.I.M.H. Director (of fenfluramine testing on adolescents fame) and Host of the N.P.R. Radio show "The Infinite Mind" had a segment on his NPR program that "featured four prestigious medical experts discussing the controversial link between antidepressants and suicide. In their considered opinions, all four said that worries about the drugs have been overblown." (See: Stealth Marketing and Public Radio by Jeanne Lenzer and Shannon Brownlee).

So they faked their "Scientific tests," manipulating data on safety, and hiding negative test results, and hiding test information on suicidality. They moved to suppress the chemical product that was a food extract of an essential aminoacid that's the immediate precursor to Serotonin -and excluded that as a very concept from both Medical literature and other media.

20 years after they knew, prior to marketing, that the SSRIs were causing suicidal and homicidal ideation, they were using positions such as this program on National Public Radio and their "Peer Review Journal" Neuropsychopharmacology, (See: Internet search, Vera Sharav ACNP) to portray the idea of "a link" as questionable, "controversial" and new.

Meanwhile they have multiple operations such as TeenScreen, and the MOTHERS Act, and the above media manipulation, etc., to increase "SSRI" Drugging Products sales to young people, pregnant and nursing women.

The idea that nearly all of these School Shootings (and murder suicides) have a antidepressant is one that is left out of the National News stories. In a Country with Actual Communication the News Reporters would be by now expected to immediately ask were they recently on an antidepressant and which one? (Actions are obviously taken to squelch this obvious reaction and subvert the News media and general understanding and communication.)

So that is the general terrible state of Scientific Medicine. Influenced by Super Rich autocratic folk and by the employment of large professional PR firms coordinating with International Petrochemical Medical Industrial Corporations.

The strong possibility exists that these people, posting to "the Democratic Underground" are not addleminded people who thought they would enjoy spending their lives throwing mud pies at Anti-vaccine Individuals, unlike me... are... paid. The Gods did not whisper in their ears that their mission is to go forth and valiantly fight the Great Beast of the conspiracy to oppose wonderful multiple simultaneous vaccinations. The possibility exists that there is a paycheck involved.

(See: search, Burston-Marsteller, Front Groups Examples of Manufacturing Grassroots Support)
(V-Fluence PR tracking firm monitoring Robert Whitaker's activities)
(Who are these so-called "Quackbusters"?... Opinion by Consumer Advocate Tim Bolen)
(Want to be a MEDLINE Information Censor?)

Linus Pauling writes, "This sentence, like others in the report, shows the presumably unconscious bias of the task force. "Promulgate" (misused here) is a pejorative word, and "catch phrases" is a pejorative expression."

Polite and thoughtful Pauling writes of their "Presumably unconscious bias" that is leading them to resort to such usage of pejorative phrase and names. Now it is known that in Propaganda pieces many such gambits that are employed are presumably conscious. (Including especially as found in propaganda on Linus Pauling and the Orthomolecular Clinicians; and other such honest responsible modern treatment advocates.)

In the article Propaganda and How to Recognize it 2005 by Ronald B. Skinner, Skinner writes of
Name Calling: In name calling, one pastes a pejorative label on the enemy. "For example, a politician who supports law-and-order could criticize his opponent as a "card-carrying ACLU member". A politician who disagrees with a judge can label him/her as "a liberal activist judge". Sarcasm and ridicule often accompany name calling.

:eyes:

Another way to denigrate someone is to call them "unprofessional"...

... The effect of having these anti-rational mud-slingers and disingenuous textual manipulators employed and deployed ubiquitously is to jam communication, thought, actions and idea formation by people who could, and would be, much more functional.

People should deal in actual communication and not have to consider walls of pretend communication created merely to con them and disable their communication.

I saw William Walsh speak in Salem Oregon on Metals in Autism, Schizophrenia and Sociopathy. He worked with Carl C. Pfieffer Ph.D., M.D. for a few short years prior to his death. Walsh assisted in the studies of metals.

Walsh said of chelation to remove Mercury in Autism that an analogy was being in a fort that is being overrun by enemies coming in the open front gate. Throwing the enemies over the walls isn't enough and the gates have to be closed.

He said that the way that you tell if a person has too much mercury in their system is to do a hair mineral test and if their is not enough mercury in the hair then they are not eliminating it in their hair and they have too much mercury. He said some large amount that everyone was breathing/ingesting per day, Walsh may have said a Milligram per day.

He said that their group had discovered a sophisticated bodily Metals-Control-System... "Metallothioneins."

He said that you could have two identical siblings living in the same family, the same circumstances, eating the same foods - and one would be well and the other not and metals testing would show the metals all wrong.

He said that chelation was not adequate and that the metals control system often needs to be healed by specific treatment actions.

Vaccines and the mercury and the mercury in them were not the whole story by any means. Often this breaking of the Metals Control Operations was a key issue. The Multiple Vaccinations could be one factor in the person's breakdown whilst this might be in conjunction with other harms such as Deficiencies, and Viral Infections.

William Walsh said that the Metallothione system is found in both the Intestines and around the brain. The bad reactions to gluten and casein (small molecules coming through the intestinal walls) was tied to this breakdown of the metal controlling system. He said that the metallothione system was also tied up with the final maturation of certain neurons in the brain and that bringing the metallothionine system into healthful functioning resulted in Autistic people having these brain neurons, that had never fully matured, finally finish the growth stage years late resulting in the people functioning much better.

Such grand statements were made in the context of a long and intelligent speech and did not stand-out especially from all the rest.

This being The Democratic Underground I hope to find thoughtful writings from people who have spent some effort looking into topics and bringing forth their communications intended to be good either for Democracy or at least for the benefit of the Earth and People.

Here's some material that appears to me to reflect sincere Modern Medicine (as compared to the billion dollar public relations firms' ghostwritten or operative-written opinion-influencing language-of-health pieces.) Russell Blaylock, M.D. is a retired Neurosurgeon, very interesting. He has an article, Doctor: Dangers of Prescription Drugs where he points out that it is not just SSRI's that are causing insanity and suicide but fluorinated drugs in general are trouble. (Fluorine is not actually part of the biomolecules found in life, right? Too high energy to work with (outside of Industry and Nuclear Power)). SAM SMITH, in the PROGRESSIVE REVIEW 2007 has an aptly named article that quotes Dr. Blaylock, THE ELEPHANT IN THE MORGUE, that speaks to the issue of how the issue of S.S.R.I.s being connected to almost all the murder suicide and school shootings is left out of the published considerations in the U.S.A. as an issue.


What I Would Do If I Were a Parent of An Autistic Child:
Recommendations Based on 30 Years of Research Experience
Written by Stephen M. Edelson, Ph.D.

Autism: It’s Not Just in the Head
Discover Magazine 2007 April

Treatment Options for People with Autism - Autism Research Institute

EXCITOTOXICITY: A POSSIBLE CENTRAL MECHANISM IN FLUORIDE NEUROTOXICITY
Russell L Blaylock 2004

_Keywords: Aspartate; Excitotoxicity; Fluoride neurotoxicity; Fluoroaluminum complexes; Glutamate; 4-Hydroxynonenal; Melatonin; Neurodegeneration; Peroxynitrite;
Reactive nitrogenspecies; Reactive oxygen species.

Immune-Glutamatergic Dysfunction as a Central Mechanism of the Autism Spectrum Disorders
R.L. Blaylock and A. Strunecka 2009

_Keywords: Autism spectrum disorders, excitotoxicity, fluoride, glutamatergic neurotransmission, inflammation, mercury, microglia,cytokines.

From, Dan Burdick
Eugene, Oregon
















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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-11 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #58
62. Thanks for the herbalism propaganda.
Edited on Wed Jul-20-11 10:18 AM by HuckleB
And thanks for pushing this thread back to the top!

:hi:
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-11 10:03 PM
Response to Original message
23. Last ? Why is it that people who are sensitive to "slurs" use their own? "Anti-vaccine" is a slur.
Edited on Sun Jan-30-11 10:47 PM by mzmolly
One used by "anti-safety" advocates, to label anyone who has any valid concern about vaccines. One used to paint an inaccurate portrait of those who want known, controversial agents removed. One used to shame those who disagree, and shame the parents of children who have been harmed.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=437&topic_id=1664&mesg_id=1664

Some closing thoughts and clarifications.

1. I do not see a homeopath.
2. I believe children should have a Pediatrician.
3. I do not believe that modern medicine is evil.
4. I have several medical professionals in my family.
5. I'm astounded at the group think in these discussions - witnessing how easily intelligent people are manipulated by Koch like interests.
6. Jenny McCarthy doesn't speak for me.
7. I don't believe in using unproven, potentially dangerous methods of "cure" like Chelation therapy, without medical supervision and support.
8. I don't subscribe to the notion that autism can be "cured" by diet.
9. I don't believe that we're experiencing an "epidemic" of autism due to vaccination. I do believe that people like Hannah Polling are not alone, however.
10. I do not believe that vaccines are above question or beyond improvement.
11. I don't "believe" in acupuncture.
12. I personally believe that vaccines are effective in most, and work as designed.
13. I will miss DU, in spite of it all.

As I've said before. The anti-safety movement wins. I've asked to be banned, and when I am, I'm done here.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-11 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. Nice try.
Anti-vaccine is simply the reality that you push. Your denial is nothing more than an attempt to spin your propaganda.

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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-11 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. Are you suggesting that I am part of a "conspiracy" to end
Edited on Mon Jan-31-11 02:26 AM by mzmolly
vaccination? That I can't actually be concerned with making vaccines safer when I say, remove formaldehyde?
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-11 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. As usual, you discuss selective actions on your part.
You've used every technique in the anti-vaccination arsenal. There is no denying reality, although it's clear that you will do so forever.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-11 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #23
57. It's not a slur when it's a fact.
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semillama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-11 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #23
63. If you've asked to be banned, why post at all?
What's the point?
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-11 08:53 AM
Response to Original message
30. "Anti-vaccine?" ... "It's like Karl Rove is writing the playbook for these people." ~ David Kirby
I thought a refresher was in order.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=222&topic_id=60929&mesg_id=60929

This piece shows the phenomenon quite well. It can be observed all over the Internet, and it seems like a wise thing to be observant about the ways that those who oppose vaccine safety attempt to fool others into their beliefs.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-11 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. Thank you for helping to make my case.
Edited on Mon Jan-31-11 10:13 AM by HuckleB
David Kirby has long been associated with the phenomenon of those who claim to be pro-safety but who act anti-vaccine. His use of the ugly ad hominem attack here also shows the depravity that he will devolve toward.

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=83
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-11 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #32
56. He also has a history of making bigoted and insensitive remarks about autistic people.
He is evil.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-11 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #30
55. Kirby is a lying con-man. FUCK HIM.
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Sgent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
46. Full disclosure
I'm about as pro vaccine as they come. I'd like to see the CDC schedule required of every child who enters daycare or school unless there is documented individual health reason, agreed to by the local health department.

That being said, full disclosure requires me to mention that the author of the above article is better known in this forum and vaccination discussions as Orac of Respectful Insolence.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. And...?
Edited on Wed Feb-02-11 07:12 PM by HuckleB
:shrug:

PS: The anti-vaccine community is quite aware of that!
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Sgent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. I never saw it mentioned
and I think its important to know.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. Why?
:shrug:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-11 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-11 12:37 AM
Response to Original message
64. Don't forget "moving the goalposts."
since the manufacturers caved to the antivaxers and removed mercury based preservatives from all but flu vaccine multidose vials, they've now decided it's the immune system reaction that confers immunity to the deadly disease that is the problem.

What they never seem to understand is that we have these vaccines and their use is mandated in school children for a very good reason: the diseases were proven killers.
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