The Tookie posts in GD

[fortyfeetunder]

I hope this place is a respite and safe place to talk.

And just in case Texasgal, hiassenrocks, Silverhair, or others want to know: NO I am not Sapphire Blue or nofurylike.

I am kind of disturbed over those threads. I am anti DP because I don't think it's handed out fairly or equitably.

There are clearly three camps going on in GD:

Believe in a reasonable doubt and want to see clemency
Consider Tookie guilty, yet through his anti-gang work while in prison, thinks he deserves clemency
The pro-DP crowd who thinks justice should be served with the execution.

The threads are becoming less respectful.

I long to see some respectful debate over there....

[Brewman_Jax]

1. Those threads have been...

less than pleasant and loaded with ignorance.

Clemency is simply that the sentence will become life in prison without parole. He will not be free.

I just stay away from those.

[Catherine Vincent]

2. I've pretty much stayed away from those threads.

[Swamp Rat]

3. Me too.

[Karenina]

4. As DU has gotten bigger

we see more of the "face" of Amurikkka. It ain't pretty.

[Swamp Rat]

5. hugs

:hug:

[Karenina]

6. Ich bin immer bei Dir, Liebling

:hug:

[Pithy Cherub]

7. Me too. And it's squarely in my state.

:(

[Stand and Fight]

8. Privately I've been wondering about the under-current of racism I detect.

In some posts the vehemence that some display in their desire (need?) to see Williams executed smacks of racism. (I've noticed that some of those who have made ambiguous racist statements in the past seem to be some of the worst offenders -- just think back to Katrina, etc..) I cannot put my finger on it, but they're so adamant about it that I find it deeply disturbing. I'm completely anti-death penalty myself, and the fact that the man shares the same race as I plays no part in my believing he should not be executed. However, there are most certainly those on DU who fail to realize that just because one believes he should not be executed does not mean they're a "Tookie" worshiper. The level of disrespect and stupidity displayed in regards to this issue in particular has my skin crawling. I hope this forum is a respite from the level of anger and disrespect that has come to dominate discourse in GD as of late.

[fortyfeetunder]

9. What the execution really means....my sense of the undercurrent

It wasn't just because Tookie was a convicted murderer, it was because he was a Crips co-founder. And executing Tookie, so to say, is cutting off the head of the snake that poisons Black America and the rest of the good old USA. (yet, he's been out of commission as a gang leader for 20+ years)

I got the impression from reading the threads that the Crips were the most g-d-awful gang ever known in the USA. Which tells me folks don't know their history; we've had gangs all through our 229 year history. What distinguishes the Crips was of its racial demographics. People of color having that much criminal influence, oh no, we can't have that in the USA.

I am just opposed to the DP. I never supported Tookie's freedom, I wanted the man to have life without parole so he could continue his anti-gang activism. But that sentiment seems to have been dismissed as Tookie playing a con game to save his skin.

Someone posted a GD thread asking if there is any celebration if there is an execution. I hope to hell not. If those individuals want to celebrate the execution, then I think FR would be glad to have them.

[Stand and Fight]

11. I agree with every point you made.

I am not one who support Williams' freedom, but I am adamently opposed to the death penalty. He'll get clemency, which, as has been pointed out, is nothing more than life without parole. So, what if he is trying to save his skin, does that mean we should now carry out a state sanctioned execution because that may or may not be the case?

Yes, if someone celebrates, then their membership here is questionable in my eyes.

[Pithy Cherub]

13. The Death Penalty does not mete out justice.

The pain and suffering of a family affected have my deepest sypathies and wishes for peace and prosperity. The tragedy can not be undone. Killing within codified legal means is the worst that a society can do to each other. A society is defined (in my opinion) by what they will condone or endorse legally. That does not mean molly coddling or holding the inmate in any esteem. There are other ways to punish that I think would be more highly effective.

There are those who bring up the cost of keeping inmates. A fair point, but what types of productive things can be done within prison to make inmates want to conform with rules. What can be done to extend privileges that would make inmates get access to prison programs? What can inmates do that allow them to atone to their victims and the families as well as the state for their incarceration? What can be done to have the inmate start restitution within a state system? Some will largely be incorrigible, but there has to be enough mental health science available to come up with means and methods that inmates will respond to more favorably.

I think the entire system needs to be rethought and reformed to allow what is best for a society that needs the moral levers of appropriate punishment. Just not at the cost of our souls and morality.

The pain and suffering of a family affected have my deepest sypathies and wishes for peace and prosperity. The tragedy can not be undone. But those convicts that have caused the pain should be compelled to admit and atone contiuosly and consistently if not to the family, to the state for their criminal acts.

It may seem soft on crime, but within that framework their are a host of options. The US is aligned with China and Saudi Arabia and that is not a morally good place to be on the death penalty. just my thoughts.

[Brewman_Jax]

17. To add

that capital punishment is the perfect solution in an imperfect system. There have been articles in yesterday's and last week's newspaper of a wrongful conviction overturned after 25 years by The Innocence Project. See article at http://www.ajc.com/sunday/content/epaper/editions/sunday/news_34b9fdb4829162f310b1.html

Just the fact of wrongful convictions should invalidate the use of capital punishment.

[wildeyed]

14. I have tangled with one of the posters mentioned in the OP

in another thread on voting rights issues. He is opposed because poor (read minority, urban) people cheat and are untrustworthy (even though there is zero documented proof of this) and therefore should have additional roadblocks erected between them and the franchise...... Seems to be a pattern here.

I am glad I missed these threads. I am opposed to the DP. Period. It is wrong to kill people. The fact the the DP is applied inconsistently is just further proof that it is wrong. But even if the justice was perfect, I would be opposed.

[Stand and Fight]

18. It is most unpleasant to read so-called progressives espouse thinly veiled

It is most unpleasant to read so-called progressives espouse thinly veiled racism and/or classism. It just goes to show that this country still has a long road to travel on its march toward equality.

[Brewman_Jax]

10. It's the insane level of hyperbole

I saw a thread comparing Williams with Hitler and one comparing the Crips with the KKK. To put a street gangster in the same sentence as a head of state and a history-changing genocidal maniac is intellectual dishonesty at its highest. Same with comparing a street gang whose members are all considered local criminals to an organization whose members and sympathizers were/are in the highest levels of state and federal governments and said members are considered "fine, upstanding" individuals.

The rancor is comparable to that other website. :eyes:

[Stand and Fight]

12. Comparable, most definitely... However...

However, in some ways the rancor here is worst because it smacks of the KKK example you brought up. Here some of us are -- a supposedly progressive site -- advocating murder and drawing connections where doing so is unwarranted and wholly dishonest.

[kwassa]

15. This site draws all kinds of people

Many well-thought and well-spoken participants, but there are those on the left that, unfortunately, are thoughtless as those on the right, and they post here.

The other pattern that was quite surprising to me is that there are many that are progressive in one aspect of their lives, and quite regressive in others. This shows up in some of the racial attitudes, and in some other issue areas, like gun control, or smoking, etc. People are not necessarily consistent throughout their belief systems.

[wildeyed]

16. That is true.

Also why I rarely use ignore anymore. I put a bunch of people on ignore after a particularly vicious round of sexism threads. When I finally took them off, I noticed that they had interesting things to say in many other areas.

[Stand and Fight]

19. Very true.

I have decided, for the time being, to reserve directing anyone to this site. At this point I would feel about as comfortable directing people to Free Republic as I would here.

[Swamp Rat]

20. Tonight was the worst I've ever seen in the nearly 5 years I've been

coming here.

Pure. Unadulterated. Bloodlust.

edit: It's so bad I've hidden 60 THREADS since I first posted this!!!!

JESUS H CHRIST!!! :puke:

[kitkatrose]

21. I've just stopped going into GD.

There used to be some really good information threads there, but now it seems like they're buried under flamefest of the day type posts.

[Swamp Rat]

22. Yes. It is rare that I start a thread, but I did last night.

I asked for DUers to help New Orleans, my home, but already there is someone acting like a real... It's not enough that we are dying slowly for all to see (or ignore), but some people will actually stand over your dying mother and tell you "she's not worth saving."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5586192&mesg_id=5589142

[ismnotwasm]

23. I'm against the death penalty

I stayed out of almost all those threads, but I read some of them and was appalled.
I didn't think Mr. Williams would receive clemency. But the debates on whether he "deserved" clemency or not were frightening, and solidly reinforced why I am against the death penalty in any circumstances. I did post on one thread that Gary Ridgeway--a serial killer-- will live for a long time. As do many very vicious criminals now in prison. There is no state to state equity. There is no crime to crime equity. There are well documented and researched racial inequities. Mistakes have been made. False evidence and accusations have happened.

But all that aside, I cannot abide the idea of state sanctioned murder.

I also posted that my daughter, who served a year in Afghanistan, saw what happens when an unregulated government-in this case the Taliban-- that dispenses "justice" as it sees fit. She came home changed in many ways, but one of the most telling is she is now vehemently against the death penalty.

[Catherine Vincent]

24. Some of you are saying that there is underlying racism in these

pro-dp posters, that may be true but imo, some of them are not racists but may have had a loved one killed by someone and is serving time; therefore, didn't get the so called "closure" that person wasn't sentenced to death. They probably have strong feelings toward any one that is convicted of murder and would like justice to be served to the survivors. I think that is the case with one poster in particular, I won't say who it is. There is no other explanation. None of his posts were ever racist in nature.