I know that we are not suppose to make references to other threads

[jillan]

BUT there is the most INSANE thread in the Greatest section on Kerry that I have ever seen.

I'll let you figure out which one.

[Mass]

1. Not sure, I am now busy with a thread claiming the glory

of the white knight that discovered recently that his vote (forgetting that he sponsored the bill) on IWR was wrong.

I am not sure which one you are talking about.

[jenndar]

2. That's the one that caught my eye, too.

I'm off to bang my head against the wall for a while.

[Noisy Democrat]

12. Can anyone help?

I've been on that thread a lot. I don't care about the "I was wrong" part so much as the gushing over the Kerry Plan, which they say Edwards came up with. I was willing to be reasonable enough to say that since Kerry and Edwards were working together for victory, maybe they pooled some ideas for the big September 2004 speech. Looks like Edwards put out an Op Ed the day after the Kerry speech with a lot of the same ideas, too.

Actually, I know they both have foreign policy teams that cook this stuff up -- they're smart guys and I'm sure they get some ideas of their own, but they can't literally come up with piles of policy proposals in a dozen different areas of government; that's why they have huge staffs. So really we're talking about whose staff came up with it first and/or which guy was smart enough to know first that these were good ideas and he wanted to present them to the public.

Nevertheless! As the obsessive type that I am, I want to know about these claims that the Kerry Plan is more like the Edwards Plan. I can't find any evidence that Edwards talked about "training Iraqi security forces outside the country," "reducing cronyism and getting Iraqi reconstruction back in the hands of the Iraqis," etc., back in early 2004 or late 2003, or that he talked about any other aspects of the Kerry Plan other than trying to get more international involvement, which Kerry himself talked about in early 2003 anyway. Any thoughts?

[jenndar]

15. Would it help

if we had a link to Senator Kerry's floor speech on Thursday?

Not that it solves the argument you are referring to, but a lot of people are clearly missing the fact that Edwards' op-ed comes right on the heels of Kerry's Iraq legislation - and it reads like Edwards was paying attention to Kerry's statements.

Harumph.

[Noisy Democrat]

16. They're saying Edwards had the ideas

out there back in 2003/early 2004 -- even before the Sept. 2004 Kerry speech. That's what I'm wondering about. But yeah, I know the reason it rankles is that when Kerry says it, it's ho-hum, but when Edwards says the exact same thing, people squee.

[Mass]

19. Kerry had some of them way before this speech.

[Noisy Democrat]

25. Which speech?

A lot of these ideas, Kerry spoke about in Sept. 2004 and wrote about in April 2004. That much I know.

[Mass]

26. Sorry, I meant the Sept 2004 speech

This said, I went back to the thread about Edwards and it is obvious that they have not the slightest idea what they are talking about and are unable to give a link.

[Noisy Democrat]

28. Yeah, that's kinda what I thought

Do you happen to recall where/when/what-kinda-document you might've seen the reference to training troops in? Not trying to bug you to death here, I just have this thing about collecting Kerry's Iraq stuff. :)

[Mass]

29. Sorry, I will try to find that tomorrow...

[jenndar]

20. Yeah, sigh.

And that's the only reason I posted in the thread in the first place. I'm not sure people who say he had the ideas first, and then won't post evidence, are persuadable. I'll dig for links, though, because this is important.

[Noisy Democrat]

21. I'm also always collecting stuff

for the KerryOnIraqWar site, which I swear to God I'm going to update -- oh, any day now! -- and so the trip back into the past is useful for finding out more about what Kerry has said, etc. :)

[jenndar]

22. That's good to know.

I'm finding I have to defend Kerry's record on the war more now than last year. :)

[Noisy Democrat]

24. If you ever have any specific suggestions --

don't know if you've ever used the KerryOnIraqWar site, but we tried to provide tools to use if someone hits you with "What about the Flipper Video?" or "Why did he say at the Grand Canyon that he still would have invaded Iraq?" (a question that makes my blood boil). But if you have any suggestions for questions that need answering or stuff we should put up there, let me know. :)

[Mass]

23. I googled to look at the debates

First of all, Edwards was rarely asked about foreign policy. In addition to that, all I found were generalities like "involve the international community" that most if not all candidates subscribed to.

At this point, except for Kucinich on one side and Lieberman on the other, all candidates were in agreement on what to do and nobody had a detailed plan.

Kerry and Clark had a plan that was more clear than the others, certainly, but it was still not the type of plan that Kerry put out on Sept 04. Certainly, you will find in it elements that what the primary debates showed, but there is nothing surprising.

[Mass]

18. He certainly did not talk about training security forces in 03

I have been trying to find old position papers from Kerry and Edwards on Iraq, but I could not find a lot, particularly from Edwards, which is not very surprising, IMHO.

Here are a couple from Kerry, and

http://www.back-to-iraq.com/archives/2003/01/kerry_blasts_bu.php

(Aprin 0l Kerry's plan)

http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=28934

On Edwards

http://www.slate.com/id/2086450

[Noisy Democrat]

27. Awesome Kerry find

I had never seen that Kerry speech before. Thank you so, so much for digging it up! I collect Kerry speeches, and also Iraq stuff, natch. I've really got to pull my little treasure trove together and update http://www.kerryoniraqwar.com -- but meanwhile I'm happy just to *have* this. It's fascinating as an example of Kerry's style before Shrum got on board (at least, judging from the date, I think it's a safe assumption that Shrum had not yet made the scene).

[Mass]

3. 5 posts and I am debating whether to put her in ignore.

Jeez - some people have a gift.

[ray of light]

4. Does anyone know if Edwards said that last year in the primaries

or the debates?

If so, then why is it reposted?

[JI7]

5. no

[Mass]

6. He did - I remember a debate where somebody asked

Kerry and Edwards if they regretted their vote on Iraq:

Edwards said YES.

Kerry started a long but thoughtful answer to explain it was the right vote and Bush did not make what he promised. (not let Bush off the hook).

then Edwards made fun of Kerry's answer. (not sure if Edward's answer was honest or just a way to embarrass Kerry though).

Anyway, it is good to know that Edwards regretted his vote. He sponsored the bill. He should be ashamed.

(This is what they are referring to)

[JI7]

7. he said

something about that being the longest answer to a yes or no question. so he did'n't really respond to or make fun of "what" Kerry said. but how he said it i guess.

i'm sure it was political and meant to push the whole thing about Kerry talking too much or having too much to say.

[Mass]

8. I was trying to find the transcript of the debate to see what was said

Do you remember which one it is?

[Mass]

9. Found - if it is what they are referring to, you are right.

Edwards did not say he was wrong. He said he has a part of responsibility in the war.

http://www.journaltimes.com/articles/2004/02/16/local/iq_2710819.txt

But the highlight of the debate may have been when Kerry, the senator from Massachusetts, was asked twice if he has any degree of responsibility for the Iraq war since he voted to give President Bush the authority to go to war.

Kerry gave an answer that arguably sidestepped the yes-or-no question. Instead of saying "yes" or "no," Kerry discussed his war record, then claimed he was voting for a process rather than just a war, and then expressed his feeling that after the vote, "there was a right way to do it and a wrong way to do it." Kerry indicated that Bush chose the wrong way to do it.

Frustrated, the debate panelist then asked Edwards, of North Carolina, the same question: "You cast the same vote, Sen. Edwards. Is that the way you see it?" "That's the longest answer I ever heard to a yes-or-no question," Edwards said. "The answer is of course." Edwards added that he said at the time that America should not go forward alone.

[Noisy Democrat]

10. If the question was

having a degree of responsibility for the Iraq War, and Edwards said "of course," that's not the same as "I was wrong." But I'm more curious about whether Edwards was actually -- as people on that post claimed -- putting forward the Kerry Plan back in 2003 or early 2004. I can't find it anywhere, and I've been searching.

[Mass]

11. This is possible, I cant say.

I remember that some of Edwards's plans in FP were very close to Kerry's. They had some common advisors.

But, if it is the case, Kerry had them too.

[Noisy Democrat]

13. Ah

Yeah, as I just said up above, in some ways I'm really asking, "Did Edwards's advisors come up with it, or Kerry's?" If they had some of the same people, then the answer may be "Yes."

[Mass]

14. Kerry had his policy papers very early on, which is not surprising

given he is a policy wonk, but make it unclear what was original in Edwards's plans in a lot of things, except for what was concerning young children and families, where he had plans that were different from the other candidates (and very good, IMHO).

[Noisy Democrat]

17. Do you happen to have

any links to early Kerry policy papers on Iraq? It's not an emergency, but I really do have very good intentions of beefing up the http://www.kerryoniraqwar.com site, and I don't think I looked at those -- not so far as I can recall, anyway.

[jillan]

30. The thread I was talking about said that the reason Kerry conceded

when he did was that he was under pressure by the military, because they were waiting till after the election to destroy Fallujah.
And it was the usual Kerry bashers defending this theory.

I was wrong - it wasn't on the greatest page - thankfully.