Some groups follow the rules on polls, some don't

[karynnj]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=235x7837

[wisteria]

1. LOL,,they are an enthusiastic bunch aren't they? n/t

[ProSense]

2. Hilarious! n/t

[Blaukraut]

3. so predictable

one lookout scouring the internets alerts, and the whole herd gallops from poll to poll, making sure 'their guy' wins them. Do they honestly think that such an asinine waste of time accomplishes anything? I suppose we ought to be thankful they haven't found a more productive way to support their candidate, or they might represent real competition. lol

[karynnj]

5. I don't think it would be a good way to promote Hillary or Kerry

(or even Warner, Feingold or Edwards), it probably is as good as any other way to promote Clark. The others are all profiled by at least someone in the MSM. (Kerry less than others, but he is very well known) Clark's Fox job gives him some visibility, but could also give him liabilities - he's on record and it doesn't enhance prestige.

For Clark, these internet polls and posts are about the only thing pushing him. He still will have the same pluses and minuses he had in 2004. I do think never having run for anything is a tricky position - and he is not Eisenhower and the war in the Balkans was not WWII. I thought he was among the better surrogates for Kerry, but he was speaking on his area of expertise only.

I think his supporters are ignoring what seems to be his current Iraq position. My problem on his fans claiming he is liberal (even the most liberal) remains that I have yet to hear anything remotely like a "conversion" story. They claim he's more liberal than that DLC Senator from MA, but we know he voted for Nixon, Reagan and Bush I. As he was high in the military, what did he know about the contras? (and why do his fans give him a pass on 20+ years of his life and hold Kerry to one chaotic moment in the Grand Canyon.)

Anyway, I figured that no one said you couldn't point to a post pointing people to vote - there's one more step here.

[jenndar]

4. LOL! n/t

[ray of light]

6. During the campaign, bloggers were asked to vote on the polls

if only to try to keep the media honest.

[karynnj]

7. That was fun too - voting after each of the debates especially

[beachmom]

8. Why Wes will never be president and why dailykos is a joke

First off, dailykos can be a very upsetting website what with all the Kerry bashing, and just plain extreme, yet somehow nonprogressive thinking and conspiracy theories. Yet Wes Clarke wins every kos poll. What a f***ing joke. That guy will be lucky if he is even considered to be a VP (and maybe he should have been last year). Now apologies up front to Little Clarkie and others who supported him in the primaries. He has his positive characteristics and has done a great service to this country. But he simply doesn't have the political skills.

Did anyone see that MTV special with Drew Barrymore about how young people, especially young women, do not vote? She had never voted, and was going to do it for the first time in '04. It is extremely unfortunate that she didn't have a sit down with Kerry (at least I don't recall her doing that). But she did get to spend time on Wes's bus. And she asked him a question, and then when she tried to follow up he was totally rude to her. Like oh, YOU'RE not important, you're just an actress working for MTV. I will always remember it as not being a gaffe -- all politicians make mistakes -- but as someone who simply cannot connect with regular voters, and who came across (again, sorry Clarke fans) as elitist. Kerry, on the other hand, is very comfortable with youth, and I think he's actually drawn to them. The Georgetown Univ. appearance (Q&A) was an example as well as that NH appearance where he was almost fatherly toward all the young folks, and encouraging them to keep working. Your stories from Boston are a final confirmation what with WEL's exams being of the utmost importance to him!! He could have seduced Barrymore over breakfast (politically speaking I'm talking here). Yet Wes blew it with a couple of softball questions from an actress who just wanted to learn more.

Just my little opinion. That's all folks.

[rox63]

22. Another 'Why Wes won't win' story

I know someone who was looking to work in one of the Dem campaigns in NH during the run-up to the primaries. He went to Clark's campaign HQ first, and they gave him a position. After a couple of days, he decided they were so disorganized that they might not even make it to the primary date. He went down the road a ways to Kerry's campaign HQ, and he found they were a lot more professional and organized. He stayed with them through the primary.

This disorganization might have been because Clark had never run for any elected office before. But (to borrow a sports metaphor) you can't go to the black diamond slopes when you haven't even mastered the bunny trail.

[WildEyedLiberal]

24. LOL - best metaphor ever n/t

[beachmom]

9. Okay, I researched a little on Drew Barrymore, and found a

bald faced MSM lie. Sorry guys this cannot be blamed on Karl Rove. I just don't buy that. This is about the media itself. They made a decision on how they were going to characterize John Kerry and nothing, like, say, facts or a little investigation, was going to change their minds. This is from the New Republic:

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=online&s=wirzbicki092304

First, let's give MTV and Barrymore credit for tackling a serious subject. The documentary doesn't break any terribly new ground, but so what? "Choose or Lose" is a constant fixture on MTV this fall. Maybe the cumulative effect of non-stop hectoring will be enough to get younger voters to the polls. Youth turnout ought to be of particular concern to John Kerry, who needs his lead in MTV's recent opinion poll of young voters to translate into actual ballots in November. There's a school of thought, endorsed by a Yale study in 2001, that peer pressure is by far the most effective way to get college students to vote. At a geriatric 28, Barrymore isn't exactly a peer, but it's safe to say she's got a bit more personal rapport with the college-age population than John Kerry.

I know, I know, this is one of probably thousands of examples of false assumptions about John Kerry, but I wasn't even looking for it. This "does not connect with voters" meme is ubiquitous and after reading your stories from Boston, you cannot understand my outrage and anger about this. I now have unbiased information from you that proves that the MSM lied for a full year or more about JK. My hat is off to him for staying strong and maintaining his hope and optimism.

[ProSense]

10. Good one. Thanks.

People give the media too much credit by saying they are just following Rove. My take is that they are also protecting their corporate interests. The Democrats are constantly maligned in the media, especially when the slant progressive.

I can't tell you how many times I start to read a potentially good article to end up puzzled by some of the snarky comments. Contrast that to some of the articles about Bush, like the one I read stating that Bush actually sped up the process toward democracy in Iraq by invading it. Really?

Kerry gets the worst because he is very progressive and his agenda runs counter to corporate interests. With his position in the Democratic Party, Kerry is simply the biggest threat to them. JMO

[Blaukraut]

12. not just Rove

The media suffer from the same affliction you find in the every-day world. Clique- or herd mentality. Once a leader in the group starts a certain pattern, the others follow suit so they can keep up with the cool crowd. Maybe this is just my silly opinion, but it really looks like there is a lot of peer pressure involved.

[ProSense]

13. No it's not silly

You're right. I forget the name of the restaurant in NYC that they all clamor to be seen at. I'll try to remember.

[whometense]

11. Now you know

why those of us who already knew him were doing this :banghead: for two years.

You're right. It is one of thousands of examples. And let me just add that I will never subscribe to TNR because of that way they treated JK. Never. They were utterly horrible to him.

[TayTay]

14. This is also a flat-out lie.

The number of young Americans (18-30 year olds) who voted
Democratic in 2004 was 10% higher than in 2000. That erases a
fall that started in 1972. That was a very big gain and
something to build on. 

And, just so you know, check this out from the SurveyUSA site:

Aprroval Ratings for Sen. John Kerry - December, 2005.
		
Age                    18-34	35-54	55+
Approve                  65%	56%	50%
Disapprove               29%	39%	48%
Not sure                  6%	5%	3%
Total                   100%	100%	100%
Composition of Adults    31%	40%	29%

65% approval. Wow!

[karynnj]

15. Fascinating data

The question is how does he reach the 55+. (I wish they would
have broken that group - because I'm 55 and it makes me feel
ancient to be in the OLD group.) The only thing I can think
here is that the Republicans succeeded in tyeing Kerry to the
hippies for the older part of this group. Other than requiring
people to watch "Unfinished Symphony" or "Going
Up river" to show them that Kerry was absolutely never a
long haired freak. 

What is strange is that, his intelligence, impeccable good
manners, thoughtfulness and articulateness should be a big
advantage in this group. His speeches are almost a throw back
to the values they admired as is his commitment to service. 

If he opts to run again, I wonder how he can reach these
people - so they see him for who he is. 

[ginnyinWI]

21. not only that, but

Kerry's idealism about what America stands for should really
resonate with older voters. It's a kind of traditional,
patriotic love of country that they should have appreciated. 

--That is, the ones who didn't listen to the spin and
outrageous lies told by the right on AM talk radio, which I
think a lot of them listen to. Also, many older Republicans
are much more moderate, and don't really realize how the far
right and neocons have hijacked the party, unless they are
reading and paying attention. My father-in-law,81, is an
example of a traditional Republican who did pay attention, and
voted for Kerry. My own dad, 77, is an example of one who did
not, and continued to march in lock-step and vote for his
"team".  

[jenndar]

25. I had the same experiences as you did.

Bush's policies are abysmal for most senior citizens, and so I
know older folks who did their homework and voted accordingly.
 And fortunately, some of the older lifelong Republicans I
know became Democrats last year or a few years before have
vowed never to vote for the wingnuts who've hijacked their
party.  But I also knew Republicans who didn't even watch the
debates (clearly because they knew their candidate was going
to look like a total sod :)) and were willfully ignorant of
how they might have benefited from what JK was proposing.

I know that doesn't really speak to these approval ratings,
but at least we have reasonable guesses as to why this age
group can be such a tough sell.

[ginnyinWI]

26. and that reminds me of another thing

--and that is that so many in MY generation (coming of age in
the Sixties) have sold out their original ideals. Who would
have thought that so many of us idealistic "age of
Aquarius" types would have just forgotten all of it, put
on our suits, joined the corporate world and started voting
Republican?
  I know how it happens--you have kids, and kids take money to
raise--but so many have forgotten about the concept of
community--that a government should be there as a safety net
for the "have-nots" who just can't make it, for one
reason or other. That we are all, really, one family. These
people just tell themselves, "I've got mine--screw
you" and vote for the candidate who promises the most tax
cuts.

One thing I love about JK is that his ideals are still very
much intact, even after all those years in Washington.

[jenndar]

27. Right.

I understand the need to spend less time being politically
active as personal priorities change, but, to me, there is
nothing sadder than seeing people abandon their basic notions
of human decency just because that historical moment seems to
be over.  You can live a perfectly comfortable life and still
be on the right side of some of these issues.

[ProSense]

28. Good point!

JK flies in the face of the notions that power corrupts and
politicians become jaded overtime, proving that these only
apply to the corruptible and those prone to losing hope. Kerry
is refreshing.

[ginnyinWI]

29. I think he has a very solid moral "core"

Because of his parents, and his faith, and his life
experiences, his personal integrity is a more important
capital to him than any money could buy.

[beachmom]

17. To be fair the article was from Sept. '04

So they had no idea whether the youth vote was going to come
out on election day.  Initially, it was reported that they
didn't come out in big numbers, but in fact they did -- the
problem was that more of all groups came out to vote so the
percentages stayed the same.

Awesome that Kerry is so popular among the "kids" in
Massachusetts!!!

Regarding TNR, check out that movie "Shattered
Glass" about Steve Glass who fabricated all of those
stories in the 90s at TNR.  Glass is played by the actor who
played Anakin Skywalker, for all of you Star Wars fans. 
Anyway, it's a great film.  But here's the funny part -- TNR
writers are young so since they're so snotty and decided that
they didn't like Kerry (probably to gain respect from the
adult MSM people), they figured everyone their age must not
like him either.  Elitist a**holes!

[ProSense]

18. Great stats!

There were a few articles after the election pointing out the
increase in votes for Kerry among younger voters.

[jillan]

16. Notice it's from the Wes Clark support group

and no one responded.

Just a tad different than the Kerry support group, ya think?

I really like Wes. He has my vote for Kerry's VP.

[beachmom]

19. The Warner group, too. Nothing going on there, except me

and Freedom saying hello. Poor Freedom STILL hasn't gotten her question answered (I haven't seen him debate, so I don't know, Freedom). I mean, I swear to God, we Kerry people are the only really active ones. I don't know whether you guys would be annoyed if I go over to Warner thereby upping his number of posts, but I realize that's just silly, since my poor governor is never going to catch up to Kerry. We're too far ahead.

[karynnj]

23. I think your post was great

It contained info his supporters could have missed, you said he was second to Kerry as your choice and it was very friendly. All it could possibly do is make you more acceptable on the main board - and there is a slight possibility that they will believe something you say about Kerry.

As we go into the primaries, the totals may change totally if people here do converge on a candidate. I don't see Warner as a main Kerry competitor in the first few primaries, because I think they'll be getting different voters. Hillary, Biden, Bayh, Edwards and Vilsack may all be going after the same center - right Democrats. In fact a strong Warner may split the moderate vote with Hillary. I see only Feingold to the left of Kerry, so whether he can get funding or whether he can get momentum may be the bigger issue for Kerry. (That's also the real problem with Kos & co as the left should be naturally pro-Kerry.)

[karynnj]

20. I think they use it differently

more as a bullitin board. Partially because they can have their isn't Wes great on ---- on Fox conversations on the main board. Even when Kerry does something of greater substatnce, our primary discussion would be a nightmare over there.

I'm surprised they haven't seriously discussed his Iraq plan there. It seems that they are not as comfortable with Clark as we are with Kerry - where people here can and do express some reservations about some of his plans. (without having to say that overall, he's still the beat choice.) They do have links to some transcripts and to his web site.

I thought Clark very smart and a great surrogate - but would really want more information on him. It may be my fault, but for some reason I view most of his mililitary career as a stealthy unknowable time. I really don't feel I know who he is - more so than any other of the contenders. (Kerry's journal entries and letters in Tour of Duty and the highly personal comments he has occasionally made made me feel I knew far more of who he is than any politician in my lifetime.)

[Moderator]

30. Locking per DU guidelines.

Please do not link to other groups.

Thank you.

DU Moderator