When you are in trouble, accuse Kerry.

[Mass]

Do you remember this interview Dean gave to the Robertson's TV program, where he bungled his position on gay marriage.

Well, now, Dean needs to rebuild the bridge with the GLBT community, so guess who he accuses.

Yes, you got it! Kerry! (though of course, Kerry agreed with the 2004 Democratic Platform, but who cares!

http://www.gaycitynews.com/gcn_526/howarddeanrebutshis.html

...
In the broadcast in question, Dean, referring to official Democratic Party policy, said, “The platform said marriage is between a man and a woman. That’s what it says.”

In fact, after considerable lobbying by LGBT delegates to the 2004 Democratic National Convention and their allies aimed at not foreclosing continued evolution of the party’s gay marriage position, the language agreed upon for the platform read, “We support full inclusion of gay and lesbian families in the life of our nation and seek equal responsibilities, benefits, and protections for these families. In our country, marriage has been defined at the state level for 200 years, and we believe that it should continue to be defined there.”
...
Dean acknowledged last Friday that at the time he spoke to the Christian Broadcasting Network, he was unaware of the language in the current party platform.

“The position I was pointing to was John Kerry’s,” he said. “I assumed that was the party’s platform. So yes, I made a mistake.”

Anybody knows what Kerry's official position was on this subject.

[sandnsea]

1. The 2004 platform

States make marriage laws. End of story. He said he believed civil unions was the way to go because that's where most people are at, but personally believes marriage is between a man and woman.

Although he's also been to gay weddings and *I* personally believe he could give two hoots about who marries who, we've got more important things to worry about. He just strikes me as sort of libertarian about some of these social issues - MYOB for cryin' out loud and do something useful.

[Mass]

2. That is what I remembered too.

[karynnj]

3. Same here

It also seemed like he thought the important thing was to get the rights, rather than the word. Although this could have been strategic - you are more likely to get the rights if you don't insist on the word, I think he just said it was his belief.

It seems Dean is just scambling for a way out - as this was well after the election, it made no sense to give "Kerry's" position if it differed anyway. Is Kerry the only grown up politician who when called on something, doesn't say "Dean did it" rather than defend what he said or correct it.

[blm]

4. Dean and Kerry had exact same position in 2004, both for civil unions

and not federal gay marriage, but let the states decide for themselves.

[_dynamicdems]

5. Oh brother!

"John Kerry's position has been crystal clear. He opposed a proposed constitutional amendment in Massachusetts in the summer of 2002 because a sweeping proposal would have threatened civil unions, health benefits, or inheritance rights for gay couples that represent equal protection under the law," spokesman David Wade said.

"John favors civil unions, not gay marriage. It's that simple," he said.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-02-11-kerry-gay-marriage_x.htm

[ProSense]

6. Oh brother is right! n/t

[Democrafty]

7. What???

I'm sorry, but that is reDONKulous, and it is not good for the DNC. The party is supposed in charge of the party's platform, not John Kerry, and the DNC chair should know what's what.

Maybe if Chaiman Dean hadn't felt the need to go on the Christian Broadcasting Network, he wouldn't be having this issue.

[blm]

8. I don't think Dean's being malicious, just scrambling for an answer and

making a mistake. He's been running around ALOT and politicians tend to make mistakes when they're road-tired.

[Democrafty]

9. Did I suggest he was being malicious?

He was inconsistent about part of the party's platform, which is unfortunate, but certainly fixable. His comment about Kerry, though, was pretty divisive, whether he meant it to be or not. As you said upthread, they supposedly have the same beliefs re: gay marriage.

[blm]

10. No, you didn't. I was just giving my view and wanted to make clear

my observation. I said it more conversationally, not argumentatively.

[JI7]

12. i disagree blm

he could have just said he mispoke or something, instead he points to Kerry. and the way he did it was so pathetic. what an asshole he is.

[blm]

16. Yeah, but from what I've observed, he has his bad moments usually when

he's overtired - it's one of the reasons I believe he did so poorly the last month before Iowa. I think Trippi had him overscheduled and he was making snappy answers sound nasty.

[JI7]

11. fuck him

pathetic fucker going on CBN sucking up to Robertson.

[WildEyedLiberal]

13. So it's John Kerry's fault that Dean pandered to religious hatemongers?

Give me a FUCKING break. John Kerry's position has never been more conservative about gay marriage than Dean's. What a pathetic, cowardly way to duck responsibility for your own actions. HE decided to go to Pat Robertson's hate network and pander to the fundamentalist extremists, and he decided to misstate the party's platform in doing so. This is typical lefty freeper bullshit - take full and sole credit whenever you say something worth saying but blame someone else whenever you fuck up.

As far as I'm concerned Dean reaped what he sowed when he decided to legitimize that hateful bilge with his official "Democratic" presence. The fact that he's going through contortions to blame John Kerry in order to duck responsibility for his own actions is proof enough that he can't really own up to his own mistakes and gaffes - and his army wondered why he crashed and burned. Whenever something goes right for him, it's all about how great and wonderful and visionary he is, but when something goes wrong, someone else is somehow to blame - the fuckups are never actually Dean's fault. How pathetic.

[ProSense]

14. This is why

I have issues with Obama's speech. Why not just address faith instead of the party's platform on faith?

Democrats, for the most part, have taken the bait. At best, we may try to avoid the conversation about religious values altogether, fearful of offending anyone and claiming that - regardless of our personal beliefs - constitutional principles tie our hands. At worst, some liberals dismiss religion in the public square as inherently irrational or intolerant, insisting on a caricature of religious Americans that paints them as fanatical, or thinking that the very word "Christian" describes one's political opponents, not people of faith.

Such strategies of avoidance may work for progressives when the opponent is Alan Keyes. But over the long haul, I think we make a mistake when we fail to acknowledge the power of faith in the lives of the American people, and join a serious debate about how to reconcile faith with our modern, pluralistic democracy.

Snip...

This is why, if we truly hope to speak to people where they're at - to communicate our hopes and values in a way that's relevant to their own - we cannot abandon the field of religious discourse.

http://obama.senate.gov/speech/060628-call_to_renewal_keynote_address/index.html

No Obama, you've taken the bait. Oh, Jimmiy Carter is an evangelical. Evidently, Obama doesn't understand that people can make a distinction between Carter and the religious nut cases on the right!

Separtation of church and state: The RW can't distinguish between religion and politics, so they're trying to drag Democrats into a conflict plaguing the Republican party.

People cab talk about faith and the issues without compromising themselves and lecturing people for condemning the winguts. Anyone want to talk faith needs to do it genuinely, from the heart, leave politics out of it, then stand by those words.

[beachmom]

15. I don't want to state any unsubstantiated rumors here

But Dean is having a LOT of problems with the gay and lesbian community and it wasn't just that Pat Robertson appearance. He fired somebody and there is controversy surrounding that firing. You can find it in the Gay/Lesbian forum, but since we don't know 100% if it's true, I don't want to repeat it. However, I agree with you, WEL, that Dean would have been a disaster had he gotten the nomination in '04, because of the mistakes in how he talks about things (think of how many mistakes he's made at the DNC!) AND the way he treats people surrounding him.

I'm still smarting from that Kos thread, where I had to fend off Deaniacs, Edwards fans, and Clarke fans who are trying to change history, and act like their guys didn't have fundamental flaws that prevented them from getting the nom. But no -- it's the fault of Iowans and people from NH.

[madfloridian]

17. Why don't you post the rumors in open forum?

He did fire someone. He did not say why. This is a pretty vicious thread which indicates a lack of unity in November completely.

Did you know his signing of the civil unions bill was used against him by Bill Clinton during the primaries? Yet he still had fundraisers with the groups and spoke at their gatherings. He has been a staunch supporter of their rights in every way. Yet he is being condemned for going on a Christian network, making a mistake in platform, which really was not was not a mistake because the party's 04 nominee had that position.

Post this openly and let's discuss.

[blm]

18. I'm open to discussion - Kerry and Dean had exact same position in 2004

and I think Dean DID make a mistake and was off his game on his answers about the positions, but I attribute it to the fact that he's on a road schedule right now, and all politicians are prone to making awkward statements when they are tired. I saw Kerry make some awkward answers of his own on the campaign trail. I think people aren't realizing that Dean has been working on the road just as hard as any campaign. Awkwardness comes with tiredness.

Both Dean and Kerry supported civil unions at the time, and neither supported federalizing gay marriage, but would leave the matter to individual states. I think that is an entirely reasonable position to have. Until marriage is untangled from a civil action and a religious action, I think it's the best we can hope for.

[Mass]

19. Actually, this is not a position that Kerry advocated as a policy position

He said that personnally, he did not believe in marriage, but wanted to let that to the states. Actually, his position is exactly the position of the 04 platform, which is the reason I posted that.

I have no doubt about Dean's positions on civil unions, but of course, he found expedient to bash Kerry by simplifying his position to have an easy excuse and this is my complaint. Too bad if you dont like it. BTW, Kerry has been a staunch supporters of their rights for years, whether you are ready to recognize it or not.

[beachmom]

27. The rumors are on AmericaBlog and from Andrew Sullivan, and

did show up in the Gay/Lesbian forum here on DU, but I won't post them given the sources I just named, because I don't think they're credible enough for me to say them. My point is there is a lot of rumbling in the Gay/Lesbian community among people who believe them, in addition to the Pat Robertson show. But I hear what you're saying and don't want to break any rules in this forum, so I won't say anything more.

[wisteria]

29. Kerry was for civil unions period.

Dean did in fact imply otherwise and associate this incorrect position with Senator Kerry.
Why even bring up Kerry at all?

So Gov. Dean spoke in error- why not just correct the misstatement and not drag someone else into it?
Personally, I realize people misspeak sometimes, that doesn't bother me, dragging Kerry's name into it does. I like what Gov. Dean is doing and all, I am just disappointed he brought Kerry's name into it.

[TayTay]

20. Why did Gov Dean go on that show?

Robertson is trouble and I don't trust the editors on that show.

Dean has a good record on supporting GLBT issues. His work on civil unions was ground-breaking, until the Goodrigde decision in Mass that legalized marriage for everyone. (Marriage equality, btw. Same rights for everyone.)

Was the DNC thing for real or hyped?

[madfloridian]

25. Because he thinks we have to do that.

The interview was very good, and it was well done. The interviewer was respectful, Dean was thoughtful and intelligent, and then all hell broke loose because he stated what was in fact quite true. It may not have been written down, but it was in fact exactly what would have been there if the party was being honest.

He said he will continue to make appearances on the CBN. If you are not aware, some of the right wing bloggers are having fits because Democrats are invading their territory.

I think it is no holds barred about where we go and who we talk to now. The GOP has so thoroughly corrupted everything, there is no choice.

BTW, one of my neighbors who watches CBN faithfully, but despises Robertson...said Dr. Dean looked like a "very nice man."

My parents kept on religious programming all day on TV, but they also saw through Robertson and Falwell.

As to the DNC thing, Dean has kept his mouth shut. However, in most cases when a family member undermines the boss constantly there could be problems. When I was teaching, I dared not criticize our principal. One teacher I know got in real trouble for it. If you are trying to run a business, you can't let someone keep undermining you.

[beachmom]

28. Get out of town (my town). NOBODY should be going on that idiot's

show. I live right near CBN, and one time even saw Pat Robertson in person -- an eccentric millionaire full of himself, and, I may add, a LOUSY preacher. I looked around the room and saw the people there, and they will NOT be voting Democratic anytime soon. It is a mistake to go on that show, and therefore, legitimize the rantings of a lunatic fringe wanna be preacher millionaire. Everybody I know, here in Virginia Beach, whether they are Dem, Repub, or Ind. think Pat Robertson has completely lost it with his insane remarks, and that he should pack it in. This a bad strategy and will only lead to more mistakes.

[TayTay]

30. So Gov Dean's 50 State Strategy includes media

Not a bad idea. I am not there yet with him. (I can't even watch Sen. Kerry's appearance on Fox last night. I just can't stand their on-air people.)

The DNC personnel thing is a standard, sigh! It happens to everyone at one time or another and you have no choice but to clean house.

[madfloridian]

21. Here is an article from 2005

There are many many reasons Dean would have referred to this issue in terms of Kerry. I believe Kerry is still the nominal leader of the party since he was our candidate. In fact I have seen posts where people think Dean was showing deference to him instead of trying to hurt him as you guys seem to think. Kerry referred to this issue in 05 as well at the state party.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2005/05/06/democrats_platform_shouldnt_back_gay_marriage_kerry_says/

"BATON ROUGE, La. -- US Senator John F. Kerry said yesterday that he believes it's a mistake for the Massachusetts Democratic Party to include a plank in its official platform in support of same-sex marriage, saying that such a statement does not conform with the broad views of party members.

Kerry, who opposes same-sex marriage but supports civil unions, said in an interview with the Globe that he would prefer that the party not mention gay marriage in its platform, because Democrats continue to disagree on how to handle the issue.

''I'm opposed to it being in a platform. I think it's a mistake," Kerry said shortly after hosting a forum on his universal children's healthcare bill in Baton Rouge. ''I think it's the wrong thing, and I'm not sure it reflects the broad view of the Democratic Party in our state."

There are other referrals to this issue as well.

[ProSense]

22. So it was his opinion as pointed out. Here is the rest:

Kerry said he does not plan to attend this year's state Democratic convention or to lobby against the same-sex marriage plank. He said he has not been closely monitoring debate over the state party platform.

Snip...

Kerry came out against the Bush-supported federal constitutional amendment that would ban same-sex marriage, saying that individual states should be allowed to settle the issue on their own. But Kerry has also said that he personally opposes it.

[Mass]

24. Exactly what we were saying. And surprise, Kerry supports what the

Democratic platform was saying. :sarcasm:

[Mass]

23. This is the MA platform. Just in case you missed it, MA has same-sex

marriage. Quotes are without context (thank you Boston Globe) and Kerry said he would do nothing to oppose the fact that same-sex marriage was in the platform.

I dont think Dean wanted to hurt Kerry, I think he took the easy excuse the Democratic establishment has been handling about nearly everything these days: it's Kerry's fault.

[madfloridian]

26. If that is what you want to think, then I guess you will.

And yes, I do know that was the MA state party.

Dean has been upfront about it all from the beginning. He does not support marriage, but supports equal rights.

He has apologized and shown contrition for his misstatement 4 times now, yet it is still going on. And actually again he told the truth, didn't he.