"Breasts, redefined"

[BlueIris]

It's in quotes because I just couldn't let it sit there in this forum looking like an actual, unquestioned statement, even though I'm sure most posters could tell it was a news headline. Hopefully, this link from this LA Times piece will load successfully for everyone.

Actual subhead from the story: "Forget the natural look, more women than ever are turning to implants." Maybe I haven't been reading closely enough, but I haven't seen a ton of discussion here about women and "cosmetic enhancement," particularly breast implants. I? Could never even consider doing something like that to my body. Yes, even if I became a cancer survivor. I can't imagine my perspective changing. But opinions may vary. If anyone here wants to discuss this story's content or the troubling topics it raises from a feminist standpoint, please do. My comment: This trend is so sad. And disgusting.

http://www.latimes.com/features/health/la-he-implants13jun13,0,4467032.story?coll=la-home-health

[redqueen]

1. I could hardly stand to read that article.

No questioning at all of the situation wherein so many women think they require surgery in order to feel good about their bodies. None at all.

*sigh*

[donsu]

2. it's sad how women have been brainwashed to say:

'I feel better about myself' after getting breast implants.

a woman's sum total is not her breasts!

and these mothers who let their teenage daughters get breast implants are beneath contempt.

plastic surgery doctors are smirking all the way to the bank.

[lukasahero]

3. Sigh

"Women consistently tell us they are doing this for their own sense of self-esteem and quality of life," he says. "Today many more of us see (body image) as an important part of personal happiness."

"Nobody does this just for themselves," she says. "The decision that seems to be your own is a product of what you've learned from the culture. The youthful, high, pointed breasts that have been revered as the perfect breasts have been learned from the culture."

She suggests that societal pressure to look good has overtaken concerns about safety. Both silicone and saline implants can harden and rupture, requiring surgical removal. Infections can occur after surgery. Implants can cause a lack of sensation in the nipple, impair lactation and complicate mammography...

Many women seeking augmentation are annoyed that the matter is still being debated. Silicone implants simply look more natural and feel better than the saline versions, they say.

Does anyone else feel like we've let our daughters down?

[BlueIris]

4. The part you excerpted, is the part where my head exploded.

"Complicate mammography." As if that's nothing.

Think about that for a second, unquestioning pro-implant assholes of the world. THINK. Then feel like what you should for not thinking about that before.

[lukasahero]

6. Yeah

I was actually trying to read it with an open mind - you know the part of my mind that says we should support each other in our choices - but then the whole "live fast die young" "I don't care if it kills me I want big boobs" came into the article and I just couldn't any more. If "personal happiness" comes from our "body image" change the image, not the body!

Seems I spend a good deal of my time these days thinking "how did it come to this"?

[BlueIris]

7. Oh, I'm ALL about supporting every woman's personal choices...

even or especially regarding something like this (technically a "health" issue) and I don't think I'd believe it was necessarily appropriate to actually tell a friend, neighbor, family member or coworker what I thought about her decision to get implants unless my opinion was solicited. Even then, I don't know what I'd say and if I did encourage her to consider the health risks I'm sure I could find a way to be diplomatic and non-judgmental about it but for GOD'S SAKE. I realize most mainstream governmental/political/current events/financial news these days is basically censored, but this? For the article, which is a HEALTH-ORIENTED FEATURE to UTTERLY gloss over the "complicates mammography" consequences of getting implants, along with all of those other disturbing, significant risks, is horrifying. And it's not like this is the first time I've encountered this grostesque "the woman's health and life are nothing, the image is everything" spin, really, it's not.

[lukasahero]

9. "the woman's health and life are nothing, the image is everything"

That sums it up doesn't it? That's what had me shaking my head. I agree, I can do the "not my choice but I support yours" thing but to a point. When health is sacrificed for appearance, that's pretty much where I draw the line.

And when the information given in the guise of "health journalism" is insufficient or incomplete, it supports that "image" women have that beauty is everything. And then we wonder where we get that idea?

Arg.

[atommom]

5. Sad. "Nobody does this just for themselves..."

"Nobody does this just for themselves," she says. "The decision that seems to be your own is a product of what you've learned from the culture. The youthful, high, pointed breasts that have been revered as the perfect breasts have been learned from the culture."

And many women want them so badly that they overlook any safety concerns. Aside from the safety of the implants themselves, this is major surgery, and puts your body through a lot of unnecessary trauma.

I've always had a boyish figure myself, but I'm convinced I'd look silly with big breasts. :P

[chicaloca]

12. big breasts/small frame = trouble

I've always had a boyish figure myself, but I'm convinced I'd look silly with big breasts. :P

Plus you'd probably end up having a lot of health issues. I have a small frame and large breasts, and sure enough, about a year after I developed breasts, I also developed scoliosis. Lately my back pain has been getting really bad (even traveling to my neck, arms and hands) and I can tell it's hard for me to stand up straight because a small frame isn't meant to carry this much chest weight. The stupid thing is that I don't want to get a reduction because I'm too vain and I know guys like my disproportionate body. As a feminist, I absolutely can't justify that choice, but I make it nonetheless. So I guess I kind of see where these girls and women who get implants are coming from. :(

[atommom]

17. I have some scoliosis anyway ... if I had big breasts I'd probably

be twisted up like a pretzel! Which wouldn't be all that sexy anyway...

[politicat]

21. Oh, lordy.... I am so willing to go under the knife....

I could give a rat's ass about what guys think (marriage helps that, I guess....). 5'2 to 5'4 and a D cup is not pretty.... and standing up straight makes my lower back hurt... but slumping makes my upper back hurt. I thus have wretched posture without constant vigilance.

Many the day I've been tempted to sterilize an exacto knife...

Even a single cup size reduction can make all the difference physically, and there are always padded bras....

[geniph]

8. While I am a strong believer

in people doing whatever body mods they please (I'm multiply tattooed and pierced myself), I also am disturbed by things like plastic surgeons classing small breasts as a "deformity" and society convincing women that they don't look "normal" if they're less than a C cup. I might feel differently about breast implants if they were perfectly benign and innocuous, but we have yet to come up with a technology for them that isn't health- and sometimes life-threatening.

I wish, as a society, we could move beyond judging women solely on the basis of their appearance. Even here, in a theoretically progressive online community, any discussion of Ann Coulter quickly moves away from the ugliness of her ideas to her appearance. Any discussion of Andrea Dworkin moves away from whether or not her ideas have merit to the fact that she was fat. Newspaper articles about women STILL, to this day, mention their appearance ("the attractive brunette") or clothing ("wearing a smart business suit"). You'll never see that mentioned with a man who isn't a model or a designer ("still trim at 60, Mr. Jones looked fetching in his casual wear as he expounded on his theories about economic policy").

Maybe if we didn't have this warped cultural ideal of beauty that is essentially a prepubescent girl with enormous breasts, we could move on to more important things, like the systematic discouragement of girls to pursue careers in technology and science.

By the way, this big-breast thing seems to still be mostly an American obsession. Europeans don't seem to have this to the same extent.

[zanne]

10. They do it because men like it...

But men also like beer; will they have spigots installed next?

[BlueIris]

15. ACK! Stop giving the misogynists of the world ideas!

Someone, somewhere is probably trying to develop the technology to do that to a woman's body right now.

[Warpy]

11. one statistic that women considering surgery should know

is how many women later get those things removed. Either they get rid of the obsessed boyfriend or they start having health problems, or (in the worst cases) they have complications anywhere from scar tissue to rupture.

More information is at http://www.intheknow.org/news43099.shtm

Personally, I think men are the ones who need to get the big fake boobs so they'll always have their favorite toys with them.

However, it's a personal decision every woman has to make for herself. She just needs to know the whole scoop on them.

[geniph]

19. "men should get the big fake boobs

so they'll always have their favorite toys with them"

Bwahahahahaha!!! That line made my day. It's right up there with Steve Martin - "I could never be a woman, I'd just stay home and play with my breasts all day."

LOL!

[chicaloca]

13. ugh.

I think it's important to be mad at society and not the women who get any type of cosmetic surgery, because they're just trying to survive in a society that has told them they're worthless unless they look a certain way. But then, of course, once they reach that standard of beauty, they'll be hated for it and judged as not being smart because they have big boobs, are pretty, etc. And if they get high up the corporate ladder, it'll be because they've slept their way to the top. :mad:

Also, there's a classist dimension to this trend, because women who are poor obviously can't go out and get implants. So, if women can attain a measure of "power" in society by having large breasts, that power is unavailable to women who don't have a lot of money. (Though women, no matter how much they adhere to beauty standards, certainly don't have as much power as men, and as I just described, that power can be turned against them.)

[Eloriel]

14. Excellent points

I really have no patience on the issue of breast implants -- and am not even all that sympathetic for cancer survivors. But your call for compassion makes a lot of sense, and the classism point is dead on as well.

AFAIC, if there's a more depraved practice that the dominant culture has foisted on women, I don't even want to know about it.

[Hello_Kitty]

16. It is class-based

Certain cosmetic surgeries are becoming the modern day equivalent of braces for teeth. It's pretty well accepted that if a person has bad, missing, or misshapen teeth that they are probably from a poor family since dental care and orthodontia is expensive.

In a similar way, you're starting to see a uniform look amongst people, women in particular, of the upper classes. Same noses, regardless of ethnicity. Same big fake boobs on the dieted-down and over-exercised bodies. Breast implants are virtually a requirement for the women I see in the tony shopping venues of Phoenix and Scottsdale. So it creates this instant visual disparity between the classes, and an incentive for women who are upwardly-mobile or who fear being identified as "low class" to finance these surgeries on credit.

[BlueIris]

18. Yikes. I honestly hadn't thought it of that way.

Geez. Apparently my elitism radar needs some fine-tuning.

[xmas74]

20. I just don't understand the fascination with big breasts.

I would love to have just one morning where I was able to wake up w/o my upper back aching. I would love to have one night that, when I took off my bra, I did not see where the straps had started to cut in (even w/ professional fittings, my cup size fluctuates throughout the month so bras never fit correctly from day to day). I quit nursing my daughter four years ago and I still produce small amounts of milk. My doctor stated that she has noticed that some larger breasted women will sometimes do this for years after they have quit nursing (they've done lab tests on it and it is actually milk). And I remember the ridicule that I went through in school from the other students for my larger breasts.
I really hope that, when the time comes, my daughter forms an A or B cup and nothing larger. I would have been much happier with a smaller cup size.

[spooky3]

22. Women can't win. Here's the other side of the story.

Small-breasted women don't have to deal with the pain you describe. However, they deal with being constantly reminded every time they try on clothes, watch TV, look at magazines, that their bodies are inadequate, unfeminine, unsexy, etc. Fashions never look "right" on small-breasted women, unless they are extremely thin as well, and heaven help you if you are both small breasted and big hipped. Throughout their lives many men ignore them in favor of larger breasted women and some are rude enough to make fun of them to their faces.

So rather than choose which is worse, I think we need to recognize that unless one's body is "balanced" in every way, and at least moderately thin, she's going to be subjected to some pretty bad experiences.

[geniph]

23. You're right about that

I remember, a few years back, my stepsons making fun of some celebrity or other because she had, and I quote, "mosquito-bite tits." I asked them if they'd like to have to walk around with what they have between their legs out there in public for everyone to freely critique?

That shut 'em up tout suite.

Sometimes the voluntary wearing of the burka doesn't sound that bad to me. :mad:

[spooky3]

24. Good reply. Another double standard: Speedos.

Most people (especially men) find them vulgar and too revealing, especially on men with anything less than perfect bodies. Yet women's swimsuits in general are simply Speedos for women--even modest one-pieces--as they are baring or clingy everywhere. There is no equivalent of the flowing surfer trunks or other fashionably forgiving outfits men wear. If men were expected to reveal every inch of their bodies (and be similarly harshly judged) they would have the same "complexes" and insecurities as women.

[geniph]

25. Wow, no kidding!

I want to start a movement for women's boxers-and-tee-shirt style swimwear! I'm reasonably trim, but that doesn't mean I want to have everyone in the world able to view my nipples and whether or not I've had a bikini wax every time I want to go swimming!

[spooky3]

26. LOL, me too!

[Heddi]

30. I want Boxer Shorts as an underwear option for women

I LOVE boxers.

Physiologically speaking, they're much better for you. If you don't wear loose fitting, cotton, breatheable undies (re: boxers, basically), you're very prone to vaginal infections like vaginosis and candidiasis.

I'd love to wear boxers, and choose to do so whenever I can. I'd like them to be like the boxer-briefs that men wear--tight enough against the skin so you don't look like you're wearing pantaloons under your jeans, but loose enough to where they don't cut off the circulation to your legs.

I hate wearing swimsuits. I'm not trim, and I have two choices:

This:


Or This:


So, if I go swimming, I'll usually wear a tank-top or T-shirt and men's board shorts (or running shorts). I don't need people to see the outline of my vulva when I swim, and I don't like the idea that you either are wearing a string, or a burka because those are the only two choices you have

[geniph]

31. I'm very touchy about having certain things revealed

by my swimwear. I really hate having visible "headlights," but that doesn't mean I want to have to wear a swimsuit top with a padded bra, either! I don't want a frigging underwire and I don't want padding, I want it loose enough that I can go braless without everyone being able to tell if I'm cold! I also very much dislike showing either camel-toe or the line of my pubic hair, but it's either a teensy clingy speedo-type bottom or you have to wear a skirted suit like your gramma wore. :mad:

I AM seeing a new style of swimwear, which is a tiny improvement - I'm seeing the "boy-short" style bottom in a lot of fashionable suits this year. Now if they'll just make them a bit looser, line them, and PUT A FUCKING BUTTONED POCKET IN THEM LIKE THEY DO IN MEN'S SWIM TRUNKS (oops, went off a bit there - WHERE AM I SUPPOSED TO PUT MY CAR KEY, UP MY BUTT?!) we'd have a bottom that looked nice, not like gramma-undies, but didn't make me feel like I was modeling for Frederick's of Hollywood. I like the tankini-style tops, but they're still too clingy. Now, that's all very well and good for competition-style swimsuits - and men wear the clingy speedos when they're swimming competitively, too - but why is it assumed that a swimsuit that will probably never actually get wet needs to fit like a racer's suit?!

[lukasahero]

32. Ok, you got me

"Camel-toe"? That's a new one on me - does that mean what I think it means?

BTW - I discovered "boy shorts" and tankini tops last year - what a fricking god-send but I agree, they're still pretty darn clingy.

[geniph]

35. Yup, it means what you think it means

visible outline of vulva, basically.

You can google on it and find some really vulgar definitions (and pictures - some people will look at pictures of anything), but I think mine pretty much covers it. ;-)

[Lars39]

27. It is so sad to base your whole identity on your body parts.

I've had to explore the concept of breast implants a lot closer than
I would like since I had a mastectomy in January.
I was intent on survival when diagnosed, but some of my caregivers
automatically assumed that I would have reconstruction,
and were really surprised when I would inform them that I wasn't,
with some going so far as to say I'd change my mind,
and shouldn't I do it for my husband's sake? Very frustrating.

The surgeon had me at the plastic surgeon's office before I knew it.
The plastic surgeon was gung ho to do a TRAM on me. Yikes!
Talk about a long expensive invasive surgery, just to have a boob,
probably without any sensation, too.
I went home and started researching implants.
I decided on my own that I didn't want them.
Husband researched also; he's of the same opinion,
and values my health more than having something to play with. :loveya:
I have a high chance of re-occurrence, so I was also very concerned about
the implants masking any changes.

Fast forward to the past month...I've been swimming quite a bit at
the hospital's indoor pool.
I don't have any type of prosthesis beyond fiberfill yet,
so I just don't wear anything on that side while swimming.
I'm OK with it, but it shocks people a bit. I'm fairly young, too,
so that makes it worse in people's minds, I guess.

I am more than my breasts. :)

[Finder]

28. Good for you and {{{{hugs}}}}}}

Glad your husband is supportive too.

[Lars39]

33. Thank you!

:)

[geniph]

29. You're one smart woman, if you ask me

Very wise not to get something that might hide any dangerous changes!

I wish you good health and strength!

[Lars39]

34. Thank you, geniph!

:)