Can you love fashion, make-up and high heels and still be a true feminist?

[UCLA Dem]

I had a friend who recently said to me that you can't be a true feminist and love that stuff. She said they are symbols of male oppression and definition of beauty, so we must reject all those things to be truly liberated from male domination.

Thought it might be a good topic to discuss. What do you think?

[geniph]

1. Depends

If you feel women are deserving of equal treatment, rights, and responsibilities, then you're a feminist whether you paint your stomach blue and stand on your head or not.

If you wear paint and pretty things only to appeal to men, and feel you must compete with other women for men, then that still doesn't necessarily disqualify you from believing the above. However, I personally think most femme feminists are doing it for themselves, not for men. It's fun to dress up and paint yourself sometimes. It's the ones that think they can't appear publicly without that stuff that I wonder about.

I don't hear many men calling neckties tools of female oppression, but most men hate 'em. Not every loathsome thing like pantyhose and heels is imposed on us from outside - some women actually like them. If you like that stuff for yourself, more power to ya. I like dressing up sometimes, but it's costume play for me, not everyday. Then again, I shave, and there've been women in the past who've insisted to me that I was appealing to male pedophilia by doing so.

[Bunny]

2. I couldn't have said it better!

Excellent post!

[UCLA Dem]

6. Thats how I feel as well.

[Chovexani]

8. Great post.

That's how I feel about it too.

[Samurai_Writer]

3. Of course you can!

Hell, I'm a BBW erotic model (no porn, though). I love getting all dressed up with makeup and heels and sexy lingerie. It's not to please men... it's because *I* feel great about myself when I do. Not saying I don't feel great about myself at other times, but I hope you get what I mean. It's fun to dress up sometimes. I'm not the type that has to have on make up and heels and jewelry and perfect hair every day before she goes out of the house. Far from it. But on occassion, it's nice.

[geniph]

4. OOOh, lingerie! I'm a lingerie junkie!

and that's DEFINITELY just for my benefit, because my own husband complains he hardly ever even gets to see it!

[Chovexani]

7. Cool!

BBW models are so cool. There's just something so hot about a confident woman. :D

I know what you mean about getting dressed up, I feel the same way. I'm very much a "jeans and t-shirt" kind of person, but I am very much into the Goth aesthetic (particularly Romantic/Victorian style Goth), and I love dressing up in corsets and putting the makeup on, etc. It's just fun.

Feminism isn't about what you look like, or at least it shouldn't be. To paraphrase the Big Dog, it's the choice, stupid! Women shouldn't be compelled to put on makeup and high heels, but if they want to, that should be cool too. I'm never going to dog a woman who chooses not to shave her legs, etc. That's her choice, ya know? We should be fighting for the right to make choices big and small for ourselves, not trying to make them for other women.

[Senior citizen]

5. Love?

I can see liking costumes--the world is, after all a stage.

But loving them?

I live in a strange world where people "love" their cars, their expensive toys, and other material things. I think the world would be a better place if we could love ourselves and others instead of loving things and costumes.

[Hello_Kitty]

9. It's funny

My job is in a clean room environment. The stuff we manufacture is very sensitive to the tiniest particles so we have to wear gore-tex suits and gloves at all times. Also no makeup. It doesn't really matter what you wear underneath, so for most of us comfort dictates our clothing choices for work.

In my adulthood, I haven't been all that enamored with make-up and fixing my hair. I'm very concerned with how I look but at the same time I'm lazy and don't have patience with lengthy beauty regimens. However, because I CAN'T wear make-up when I'm at work I find now that I relish the opportunity to swipe on a little mascara and lipstick when I'm off. Plus I love to wear dresses and cute shoes because they're a departure from the jeans and tennies I usually have to wear.

Funny how it works that way. I shave my legs too because I love the way it feels. I know lots of guys who shave their entire bodies because they are athletes or they just like it.

[jmm]

10. Your friend doesn't sound like a "true" feminist

I always saw feminism as liberating women and giving them choices as opposed to dictating a new form of domination.

[donsu]

11. makeup, hair dye can be toxic to your system

they used to extract the red from rabbit eyes for the use in makeup. I'm not making this up. knew a woman who did this work. all day she took rabbit eyeball after eyeball and sucked out the red.

they also used to use sheep piss. I'm not making this up.

what they put in today, I don't even want to know.

anti-perspirants ain't so good for you either.

[Hello_Kitty]

12. Sheep piss I can deal with but not the rabbits! n/t

[Finder]

13. Do you have a link?

That makes no sense biologically to me. I am referring to the rabbit eyeball statement.

[donsu]

14. no, I knew this woman long ago and when she first told me I thought

she was pulling my leg. I think they also used the red for something else too besides makeup.

[Finder]

15. hmm, there is nothing red in the eyeball...

it just appears to be red or pink.(blood vessels)

Just saying...

[marions ghost]

16. it's just body art

I have no problem with people dressing up in whatever fashion they like for fun and self-expression. Make-up and all that--it tells something about the person--but not whether they're a "true feminist or not." One of the strongest feminists I ever met was heavy into make-up. However when fashion and behavior combine to produce the Full Peacock Strut--I MAY assume that person isn't 'likely' to be a feminist.

Sure, there are times when too much display isn't appropriate (for example deep cleavage at the serious business meeting)...in those cases it does not do much for the cause of respect for women. I'll never forget the courtroom where the court recorder's dress was so thin and her underwear so interesting...that everyone in the whole place was trying to avert their eyes during the long proceeding. I think it would be safe to assume that she was NOT a feminist, and perhaps that was the point she wanted to make. But most people are not going to these exhibitionistic extremes.

Women shouldn't feel they must conform to a feminist dress code.

[libodem]

17. I like make-up

and while I'm mostly a jeans and tennis shoe type...I like fashion and dressing up once in awhile. I read a book on Androgyny once. It had its points. Males and females have their similarities. I don't see anything wrong with making the distinctions, however. Plus, I think in the romance game, the sparks between the opposites, are more sparky if the gender roles are highlighted. just my thoughts.

[Solly Mack]

18. piffle

while there exist a very sexist (and racist) standard in our society of what defines beauty..and while some women and young girls need to break away from that destructive thinking, pleasing yourself by dressing up and wearing certain clothing in no way makes you a doormat or a victim of men.

key-phrase being: "pleasing yourself"

[Eloriel]

19. "Women are the holders of Beauty on this planet."

That thought has come to me at least 3 times over the last year or two in meditation. It's given me something to think about. I may not fully understand it, but I have come to believe it is true.

I also believe that we've got a long way to go in reaching the (spiritual or Platonic, if you prefer) "Ideal" re what is and is not beauty or beautiful, and that when we do it will encompass many more physical types than it currently does. (Most of us feminists, for example, have become quite adept at seeing great beauty in older women, especially those who carry themselves with grace and dignity, or who show great compassion in their faces, or exhibit purpose and passion.)

One thing I think it means is that if you're female, you ARE beautiful by definition (no matter what the culture's current "ideal" may be).

I think it also means it's natural for us, as women, to want to BE beautiful -- and augment our beauty with adornments -- and create beauty of all types around us.

I do NOT think that it means this is the only thing true of women, archetypically speaking.

It's been a thought that I've found enriching to contemplate. If anyone would like to add to these thoughts of mine, by all means please do.

[marions ghost]

20. if only women could really believe

that beauty comes from within...and not be so focused on physical features, but of course our culture instructs us from an early age that it's all about how you look on the surface. When you meet someone (male or female) who has an inner beauty that shines through, you hardly notice their physical "flaws" (flaws as defined by the fashion industry to keep us insecure and buying, buying...)

Jewelry, make-up, clothes -- fine for fun, but none of these do anything to help if the heart is not beautiful. Look at all the sprayed, fixed-up, touched-up, decked-out women around who are also brittle, selfish, mean, conniving. They look scary, not attractive.
(Except maybe to men who are equally narcissistic). Inner ugliness shows.

Right, if women are "the holders of beauty" we must be the ones to get beyond the cultural sterotypes and contemplate what beauty really is.

[geniph]

21. It's natural for the male to want to adorn himself, too

It's another sign of our society's repression of natural impulses that many men feel much too inhibited to do so. Men in less repressive cultures find all kinds of ways to enhance their appearance, just as women do. Tattooing and piercing are just two examples.

[shimmergal]

34. What an eloquent, thoughtful post!

I can't match its prose, but once one loses the blinders that label things like women's wrinkles ugly while on men they look "distinguished" etc., one sees that the average woman in our society is much more attractive than the average man. Even women who ignore makeup, fashion etc. I'm definitely straight but I still find this to be the case.

Partly, I think, this is because most women at least take the trouble to try to be clean and "well-groomed," for their own comfort and pride. Many men take pride in being just the opposite.

But I also wonder if there might be an evolutionary reason. What do others think?

[Heddi]

22. I think you can

Everyone on this thread has brought up really good points, all of which I agree with.

I don't see any difference in telling a woman "you're a bad woman because you wear makeup, wear dresses, and shave your legs. you're no feminist" and telling a woman "You're a bad woman because you don't wear makeup, wear dresses, or shave your legs. You're no female".

Thankfully, we're able to make the decision regarding what we want to wear, and how we want to wear it. I don't think that you should have to be the equivalent of a wooly mammoth in order to be a 'feminist'. Nor do I think that you should spend 4 hours doing hair and make-up in order to be a 'woman'.

I don't wear makeup. I have some in my bathroom that is MANY years old, smells funny, and by all intents and purposes should have been sent to the trash bin years ago. It's like a petri dish at this point. But I keep it because, well, one day I *MAY* want to wear makeup.

As it stands, I'm 29 years old and have never learned how to apply makeup correctly. I can do my eyes okay, but was never good at the blush. Lipstick is okay but unless you spend $7 on a tube, it's either going to come off, or make your lips dry. I don't do well with foundation and powder because I'm so pale that I either look like a corpse, or have that oh-so-lovely line of demarcation between my chin and my neck. Not nice.

I find makeup to be a bother. I don't do my hair either. Again, I have a hairdryer but use it maybe 2x's a year. It makes me look like Peter Frampton if I blowdry my hair. Not nice.

But If I did decide to wear makeup, or do my hair, or wear something other than jeans & birkenstocks, how does that in ANY way negate what I do, how I donate my time and money and effort into equal rights issues? It doesn't. I can be just as much of a feminist with foundation on, and I can be just as much of a "woman" with woolly pits.

Wearing makeup, liking fashion, and donning high heels in no way negates being a feminist, unless, of course, you're doing these things for the WRONG reasons.

Many people would say that if you're wearing these thigns to feel good about yourself, then that's okay, but if you're wearing them to get the attention of a man, then it's wrong.

But why is that wrong? If I'm single and looking for a guy, why is it wrong to look 'nicer' than I would if I was wearing what I'm wearing now--a pair of scrub pants, stained up t-shirt and torn underwear? I wouldn't expect much from a guy who showed up on a first date wearing what he wore to bed the night before, ya know.

I'm married. I like to please my husband, and he likes to please me. I have outfits that he finds me very attractive in. Is it "un-feminist" to wear things that peak his interest? That turn him on sexually? That he finds me attractive in? I'm not uncomfortable in the clothing, and I like it too. But I like it more because HE really likes it too. There's outfits he has that I love for him to wear because he looks good in it. I'm not demanding he wear them, or stating that if he loved me he wouldn't wear anything but that outfit. And he's just as fine in jeans and a t-shirt, but sometimes I like him in his dress-up clothing.

I guess I don't know what would be the 'wrong' reasons for wearing such things, and what could make someone who wore X outfit (makeup, hair, heels) be a feminist, but someone else who wore the outfit NOT be a feminist. I don't know if I can even be qualified to judge someone else's motives, likes, or reasons.

We should be free to make choices in life--PRO CHOICE ALL THE WAY---that goes beyond pregnancy and abortion, but for ALL aspects of life. If you want to wear 6-inch stilettos, go for it. If you want to walk around barefoot--that's fine. It's all up to the person and givin g them the autonomy to make the choices that fit their life the best. I don't like wearing heels because my feet are too big and my boobs are too big and I'm too top-heavy and don't walk good in them. But I"d never bar someone else from wearing heels because *I* don't like them. And I'd never want someone to bar ME from wearing heels because they don't like them. Give me the choice. Chances are, I'll go for a low-heel or a flat, but let ME decide for MY own reasons.

[noamnety]

23. I'm going to buck the trend here

Sepcifically because of the inclusion of high heels. They are one step away from binding our feet. Fashion, makeup, in general doesn't actually harm us, so I don't see it as damaging in the same way as heels.

"A clinical professor of orthopedics, Michael J. Coughlin says, "The deformities that often develop after years of wearing high-fashion pumps are similar to foot problems that were formerly seen in Chinese women whose feet had been bound." (Okie in Benstock and Ferriss) Additionally, long time wear of high heels is also being linked to knee arthritis in women, and most recently, back problems."
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/sci_cult/courses/knowbody/f04/web3/aabeyta.html

Side effects include ankle injuries, nerve irritations, back and neck problems. pinched nerves at the ball of the foot (neuroma), shifting bones in the foot, muscle fatigue and cramping, aggravation of bunions, calluses and hammertoes, sesamoiditis, metatarsalgia, shortened calf muscles, Achilles tendonitis, Plantar fasciitis/Heel pain, and Pump bump (Haglund's deformity).

I wouldn't go so far as to say "if you wear heels, you aren't a femninist" because I don't think it's that black and white. Feminism, like most things, is a sliding scale, and if you are willing to accept chronic pain and risk permanent deformity to accomodate an predefined ideal of female beauty, that puts you a little lower down on the scale, in my opinion.

[Eloriel]

24. I've often equated them with foot-binding in my mind as well

-- a kinder, gentler form (barely).

I was very interested in fashion when I was young -- wanted to be a designer when I grew up. And I still love beautiful clothes. By this time I also love being very, very comfortable -- pajamas comfortable, if possible.

LOL. I was at my chiropractor's office this afternoon and the other chiro came out in scrubs and someone commented on it. He said he went to visit someone in some other office and noticed how "comfortable" all the staff looked in scrubs, and then it dawned on him, "Hey, dummy, you too can work in your pajamas."

Unfortunately, came a point where I stopped loving beautiful clothes because of my own weight, but recently I've begun getting interested again, ALONG WITH both addressing the weight/health issues AND taking care of myself NOW, and it feels very, very good.

I used to love the look -- and feel (a little extra height, a slight change in posture) -- of moderate heels with my business attire. And while I'm not crazy about make-up (don't spend even $50 / year on it thes days), but my skin tone isn't great, so a nice foundation really does help, and eyeliner brings out my eyes which are all but invisible without a little definition, and lipstick and blush make me look a little less dead or dying. There was a time when I'd never have gone out in public without make-up, but I do now all the time, tho only on errands and such. If I'm going anywhere I might know someone, I usually put some on.

I so envy those women who look wonderful and beautiful whether they've got make-up on or not, especially those with nice, even skin tone. If I just had that, I'd never wear make-up at all.

[noamnety]

25. Makeup's a whole different ball of wax

Since you can get foundation with SPF, it's actually better for your health if you wear it, so that's a very different thing.

It is the ultimate irony with heels that they do make you feel more powerful and stronger when you put them on - even as they are damaging you physically and making you weaker.

I wore them when I was younger fairly regularly for a few years. I have chronic pain from a bunion now, and don't want to deal with being incapacitated, and unable to drive for weeks on end if I get the surgery. Bunions are genetic, but heels accelerate their growth. I regret ever wearing them at all now that I'm in this position.

Any of you folks out there who are still wearing them regularly ... stop. Just stop. Don't make me post a photo of my deformed foot!


Edit: Here, instead of mine, have a gander at Katie Holmes's feet - she's the current poster child for problems with high heels:
http://celebritysmack.blogspot.com/2005/06/katie-holmes-gets-gnarly-feet-award.html

[lukasahero]

26. New studies indicate that we are wearing too much sunscreen

and not getting enough vitamin as a result. Part of the problem is this kind of stuff where the sunscreen is in everything we buy. Yes, sunscreen at the beach? Good. Sunscreen to wear for the 5 minutes it takes you to get from the car to the office? Not so good.

[Ripley]

27. Advertising makes people go overboard. Sunscreen, anti-bacterial...

products too. I can't believe how many products now claim "anti-bacterial" and imply you'll get a staph infection if you don't disinfect your house (and your hands/body) from top to bottom. Wrong, wrong. As you say about sunscreen, we need to allow some bugs to exist so our body's immune system can function.

Not to get too far off topic...

The high-heel thing is really disgusting....and that picture of Katie whoever...is she even 30??? I've seen women in sandals with that hammer-toe or whatever it is, as well as women in catalogs. How can that self-induced deformity of a foot be considered sexy or attractive? I agree it is a modern form of foot binding. Another reason I can't stand Sex and the city...they all buy into that pointy shoe on 3" heels thing as if they are just doing it for themselves.

While neckties may be uncomfortable, they don't mutilate. So name one thing men do to themselves to appeal to women that hurts them.

[donsu]

32. oh that anti-bacterial crap! I won't buy anything that says anti-bacteria

I know a woman who is addicted to that anti-bacterial stuff and bleach. I joke she has an orgasm in the chemical isle at the grocery store.

[noamnety]

28. I hadn't heard that

I had a precancerous dealy removed from my face a few years back, so I'll risk the vitamin loss, I guess, but it's interesting all the same.

[lukasahero]

29. My doctor was involved in the Harvard study and it was recently

on NPR but other than that, I'm not surprised you haven't heard. The study recently in the NEJof M, I believe, suggests that 15 minutes or so of sunlight/day is actually good for most people but that no one is getting sunlight any more because we've got sunscreen in everything. Heck there are hand lotions that have it in them now. I think it's a matter of moderation just like everything else.

If you have specific concerns about skin cancer, you can boost your Vitamin D in other ways. Do bear in mind that Vitamin D is essential in processing calcium so it's not just the vitamin loss at risk. I certainly understand your concern, but, being osteopenic myself, urge you to consider supplementing the D in other ways.

[Beaverhausen]

30. I've had pre-cancerous patches removed from my face and limbs

I CAN get burnt in 5 minutes if I don't have sunscreen on.

[lukasahero]

31. Sorry to hear that.

Please see the info in my post 29 for the "disclaimer" and info about why we need vitamin D.

[donsu]

33. I've had pre-cancers removed every yr. for the last 15 yrs.

plus one cancer.

yes, the body needs sunlight to be healthy. but nowadays it doesn't take much sun to do the job.

I don't trust sunblocks.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

35. Working free-lance, I rarely have to dress up

For that reason, I delight in opportunities to put on my finery.

Sometimes I just wake up with that "I want to dress up"feeling.

I have not been a fan of high heels, though. I'm already tall and have big feet, so at the most, I'll wear about a 1/2" heel.

[spooky3]

36. Yes, but it hurts just to watch Katie Couric wear those pointy shoes

on the Today show.

I will be happy when the "Sex and the City" fashion trend passes.