Why we will never win

[lukasahero]

I'm really discouraged about the right's of women in this country lately. I honestly think we're headed back to the 50's (or worse) and there's not a damn thing we can really do about it. Many men, conservative and progressive, won't stand up for our rights (progressives being either too ignorant or too ambivolent and conservatives, well, we all know why they won't). Many women won't stand up for themselves either and I wonder how this paradigm continues. And then I experience a weekend like this last.

I want to believe that we are past teaching our children that men and women are not equal - I'd especially like to believe that of people who are otherwise not the stereotypical wrong-wing fundamentalists but I am losing faith.

I spent the weekend with my sister in law and brother in law and their 8 y. o. son. I was reminded (because apparently this is such a big deal in their house that he remembered it from over a year ago and asked about it again) of the conversation we had informing them that I was not taking my husband's name. The SiL was telling the son what "marriage" meant since my husband and I were planning to be married in a few weeks. Now, I can think of a million ways to explain marriage to a 7 year old and not a one of them would have ever included "and the woman takes her husband's name". So yes, I apparently blew their whole definition of marriage for the kid and a year later, he asks me about it again.

I thought that was odd but let it go and then we had another conversation that just blew my mind. We were visiting with them because I found a car down in their area that was absolutely sweet and would have cost me another $5k up here. So we're down there to pick up my car. So the kid asks why I'm not staying longer since I can fly back on the plane and I tell him because I have to drive the car home. And he says "But Uncle J will drive the car" and I tell him, "no, it's my car so I will drive it". He's confused because even though the car we're in is his "mom's car", dad always drives it, dad bought it. It's simply beyond his comprehension that I would drive (and independently buy and own) my car.

This kid is 8. He simply does not understand why a woman would drive the car (her own) when a man was there to do it. This is what these otherwise relatively sane people have taught their son - either explicitly or by practice. How can we expect to change the world we live in when we keep teaching our kids the same old thing?

We really haven't come that far, baby. :(

Sorry to rant, this just stunned me and figured I'd toss it out there for discussion.

[bloom]

1. It's good that he at least has alternative

views of the world through you as an example.

But yeah - for a lot of people - the world hasn't changed since the 50's or whatever.

And I feel like the forces of conservatism are pulling harder than the liberal ones.

[Hello_Kitty]

2. Poor kid

He's being raised 1950s in the 21st century. His parents are doing him a disservice. They may have so-called traditional values and want to instill that view in him but they could at least acknowledge that not everyone lives the way they do. If he takes it to heart, he's going to become confused and bewildered when he goes off to college and out in the world and finds that the women he encounters don't want to play June to his Ward Cleaver. I run into enough guys with this attitude at my age and I cannot for the life of me understand why people are STILL rearing their boys this way. I second bloom's comment that he is lucky to have you in his life to provide an alternative model.

[StellaBlue]

3. as crazy and self-limited as many young women are today,

the key to achieving any kind of equality, IMHO, lies in RAISING DECENT BOYS. Which, mostly, doesn't happen, IMHO.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

4. He's just a little boy

You say he's 7 or 8?

It's a brand-new world for him. What he knows is what he lives with daily - that is, his parents' world.

Do you have kids?

You're expecting a very young child to understand and articulate sophisticated concepts that are beyond his ken. He's teachable, though, and as he gets older, maybe you'll be able to spend time with him and maybe he'll learn from you. But, for now, he's still learning his parents' world, and, you know, that's how it should be.

Women have come very far, but expecting a 7 or 8-year-old boy to understand that while he's still growing up and trying just to understand how his own body works is unrealistic. Of course he doesn't understand car ownership or how people travel. He's just mastered multiplication.

He doesn't know a thing about what matters to you, just as you don't understand his reference points.

Be gentle with the boy. You can have a wonderful impact on him as he grows up.

[lukasahero]

7. Get off your high horse please

What part of "people have taught their son - either explicitly or by practice." do you not get? I'm not upset at the kid. I'm attempting to demonstrate a reason why our fight for equality will not be won because WE are teaching our children that boys and girls, men and women are different. WE are teaching them not just in the fundie churches with words but through our daily interactions. And they, bright, aware and curious creatures they are, are listening and learning.

There was a thread in lounge last week that had the "rules for men". One of those rules was "it's ok for you to drive her car but it is never ok for her to drive yours". But hey, that's just a joke, right?

For the record, I have another 8 year old nephew - his mother drives even when *gasp* dad is in the car. He doesn't think women should take a back seat to men. I don't fault either child but don't tell me that a child can't understand the difference. They can because they learn from their parents.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

9. You're not teaching anyone, so what's with "we"?

Your subject line is intensely unpleasant, and completely inappropriate. Others here have agreed with what I posted. Will you be personally attacking them, too?

What you're showing, with your observations and judgments, is that your intensely disapprove of people doing things the way they want to if its not in accordance with how you think children should be raised.

You clearly have no understanding of how kids grow, develop, or learn. Watching parents with their children gives you no special insight into what goes on with children. You stated quite clearly that you were terribly disappointed in how the little boy reacted, and implicit within that statement was your disapproval of how his parents were raising him. What bothered me most is that you, an adult, were bashing a 7 or 8-year-old child. You undercut your credibility, though, when you showed that you weren't even sure how old the little boy was. There's a name for people who bash children.

Since you don't understand a thing about children, and since you clearly have no capacity for civil discourse, I'll forgive you your bad manners.

And, when you've raised a few children of your own, perhaps you will know what kids do and don't understand.

I do forgive you, though. Your issues shine through brilliantly, and now that you dwell in my IgnoreLand, I wish you well.

[lukasahero]

10. Bwahahaha

Sorry, I'm done here.

Edited: no actually I'm not quite done. Your accusation that I don't know the age of the kid actually goes to suggest you didn't comprehend my post. Do I give two different ages for the boy in my OP? Yes. Because I am talking about two different times in his life. One referring to this past weekend (where he is 8 y.o.) and one a year prior (where I comment that he is 7). Last time I checked, 7 comes a year before 8.)

[CornField]

5. Chiming in to agree with both Stella & OldLeftie

Don't write this little guy off yet. His world is very limited right now and his mind is just getting to a point where it can begin to theorize and understand larger concepts. In short, at 7-9, boys and girls have only recently discovered they aren't the center of the universe. ;)

Not to steal your thread, but to add to the discussion: I went to a family reunion three years ago. I asked 19-year-old nephew if he had a girlfriend. Instead of him answering, his 17-year-old (pregnant) sister responded, "He better not have one. Women are nothing but trouble. Evil."

I wish I could tell you that I made some snappy reply that made her think. I didn't. I believe it took me 30 minutes or more to pick my chin up from the ground.

These two siblings were raised in a strict fundamentalist Christian home (mega-church, parochial school, etc.) I guess original sin and all that, eh?

And, to add insult to injury, the niece now has a daughter of her own.

[bleedingheart]

6. Years ago after I graduated from engineering school

I moved in with my mom when I got a job closer to where mom lived..

So I go out and buy a mountain bike and start riding it every day after work. One day I am riding along and lo and behold...the chain breaks and so I get off the bike and I start fixing it. Two young boys who had been riding their bikes come up to me and one says...."Don't you have a husband who can do that for you?". I politely explained that I didn't have a husband and that I could fix the chain by myself...I then let him know that I was an engineer and then and there...I could tell that the kid's perspective on women changed a bit. So if anything don't write the kid off...be a role model for him.....

[Finder]

8. Bingo...leading by example...

Unlike the past, boys see women in management, in government, in law enforcement, as doctors and not only as the gender that cooks and cleans. Even if their mothers are traditional, chances are their friends moms, or an aunt, etc have broken the mold of the 50s.

Boys, and girls today learn there are choices and for that reason the outlook is positive.IMO

[CBHagman]

11. I don't understand the title of your original post.

You are citing exactly one child and exactly one family and several conversations.

My question: Why does this mean that all efforts to secure equality will fail? Isn't that what you are implying?

Have you conducted surveys? Dealt with several classes of young children? How about high school students? College students? Are you able to report on general trends among those groups?

My fear is that you are possibly allowing several incidents to color your entire view of the community and/or nation. Many of us might be as appalled as you are by your experience, but not all of us would draw the conclusion that the experience of that child is identical to an entire generation of children.

Would any college instructors/teachers/sociologists/researchers care to comment?