"Shut your fucking mouth"

[xmas74]

(I posted this in the Lounge but thought this might be an interesting topic to post here too. I'm really interested in hearing from others why a grown woman would do her damnest to discourage little girls from participating in traditionally male activities)


My daughter played her first flag football game yesterday. Everything was fine-both even w/ no score-at halftime. The three girls were doing fine,playing the best they could and not backing down.

One mother decided to start mouthing at halftime and said, loud enough for the girls to hear, "We haven't scored yet. That's what you get for letting girls play football."

I stared at her and she decided to go one further. She says to me "Shut your fucking mouth, you stupid dyke! Everyone hates a dyke pushing their kids in places they don't belong. Put her in a beauty pageant where she belongs!"

I was good. I just walked away and let her yell. Saddest part of all was that after halftime all three girls felt "too sick" to play anymore.

Why would a woman put down little girls? I can handle the tantrums-I'm an adult. (As you can tell, calling someone a derogatory term for lesbian is an insult to her, especially if you say it to a hetero woman.)

[femrap]

1. This women likes her gender roles to be

very, very strict. She's scared...and small-minded. And little girls are easy to pick on...they don't fight back.

If you see her again, I wouldn't let her off the hook. Tell her she needs a lesson in civility...then ask her if she knows what that is.

I hope the girls will still want to play in the future...tell them that woman is educationally handicapped.

[xmas74]

4. Coach called last night

and is planning on giving a big pep talk.

I also called a coworker about the whole deal. She played football in high school in an even smaller town. She said that she plans on stopping in when she has some free time to assist w/ practice so that the girls can meet a woman who did play football in high school and was good at it.

[femrap]

9. That's good to hear.

I hope the girls stick with it and enjoy the game.

And I guess they're learning that some adults never really grow up and behave with civility and understanding.

[Warpy]

14. It's too late now, but should it happen again,

I don't think a "Do you praise Jesus with that mouth?" would be out of the question.

I'm betting alcohol had a part in it, along with having a son in the game who wasn't doing too well.

Her mama never taught her any manners, I guess.

[BlueIris]

2. Well, it sounds like that woman has some big issues, but one reason

grown women put down little girls--and worse--is to take away from those girls the confidence, self-assurance, self-respect and safety such women don't perceive themselves to have ever had. In the minds of women who would do that to our daughters, that's one perverted way they think of themselves as "getting back" at Patriarchy; all part of those nasty "internalized oppression" and "suck-up to the collective abuser to reduce the punishment" concepts we've discussed in here so much. In their heads, these women are little more than abused girls themselves. They have no emotional depth, no empathy, and they aren't likely to learn any until they can spend years and years in supportive, theraputic environments being inspired to change their behavior so they stop hurting themselves and others.

Ugh. It's depressing to think about how much work it would take a person like the one you describe to truly clean herself up, heal her damage and stop inflicting it on the world at large--especially little kids. I would know, as I've now spent almost four years cleaning up my own similar damage and I'm not. done. yet. And I was never so low that I was enmeshed in bigotry, or inflicting my self-hatred on children just to believe I had one teeny, tiny shred of empowerment all to myself. Blech. I can't imagine how much effort it would take someone in a darker place than I was to reform.

[xmas74]

5. I knew something like this had been discussed before!

And I'm glad you brought it up.

I'm curious: Do you think this is something that can be found everywhere, whether small town or in a larger city, across socio-economic classes, etc?

I ask that because I have noticed that the larger the town the more likely you are to find girls involved in more "traditionally male" activities and you are more likely to find parents that are completely supportive. But I've also noticed that most of the girls who are interested in bending the supposed gender barriers also tend to be from lower to middle middle class families-the girls from poor families and those from wealthier families tend to stay w/in their prescribed gender roles. (Example: one young lady from a rather wealthy family wanted to play. Her parents said no but that she could cheer for the team instead.)

I'm curious if you've noticed this across the board or if you have also noticed a separation via economics?

[BlueIris]

11. I don't think the prevalence of the phenom is class-based, no.

I've actually seen women of the upper-middle and upper class work harder to infuse their daughters with the internalized oppression they cannot purge, though. Which is not to say I've met every single last child abuser out there, fortunately. But I don't think the financially stable or those who live in allegedly enlightened "urban" environments are above fucking over their children like this, if that's what you're asking.

[cally]

15. You find it everywhere

I've mentioned before that I live in liberalville. We're generally more circumspect with our racism and sexism, but it's there all the same. I think sports brings out the worst of it. I know I've mentioned this before, but I personally witnessed a group of girls knock my 4th grader down on the playground and hit her. I heard a woman, who thinks she is feminist, tell the principal that she couldn't be concerned with what the girls were doing while she was playground monitor because the boys had a huge football game going on. She then, with her buddies, proceeded to thwart all my efforts to have the school district adopt anti-bullying curricula because after all some of the issues discussed in the curricula did not pertain to our upper income school. :argh: This 10 plus years later and I'm still furious.

I don't know what I'd do in your position but it sounds like the coach is handling this right. I guess the one thing I wish I had done all these years ago is just to escalate the issue and confront the idiots. I tried to play within the rules because I didn't want to embarass my children. I now wish I had asked for a meeting and just called them on their bullshit.

Many years later, I want to go up to this woman when I occassionally run into her and ask what she thinks about all this now.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

3. I'd be so tempted to respond thusly:

"Funny, I wasn't a dyke when I was fucking your husband last night." Okay....Bad me....:spank:

Seriously, that woman has ISSUES. Self-hatred, rigid adherence to authority and scripted roles, the whole gamut. Repuke for sure.

My grandmother was like that. Control freak. She had very definite ideas about how things should be and viewed my sister and me as extensions of her. She'd go ballistic if we deviated from proper feminine behavior. She never used the word dyke or referred to lesbians but that was probably an underlying fear. That or we'd be sluts. Or, gawd forbid, FAT! Not surprisingly, we both developed body image and eating issues. And in my case, a crushing lack of confidence for many years. I can relate to getting a sick feeling during challenging situations or when criticized. When you have someone screeching at you about what a failure you are nonstop as a child you tend to internalize it physically.

Your girls are so lucky to have you for a mom. The interaction with that woman must have been very puzzling and upsetting to them. As it should be. She was a shitheel. Unfortunately for too many other girls, her comments would seem perfectly normal.

[xmas74]

6. My daughter has already mentioned six other girls

at her school asking her about football. They told her that their parents said they couldn't play in a "boys game".

Her two other female teammates are the coach's daughters. He stated that when they announced that they wanted to play he decided that, if need be, he would pick every last girl who showed up for tryouts so that they all felt like they were wanted. His main concern is for the future. He's working on ideas right now if they decide they want to play when they are older. He says that he knows they can handle it but that he doesn't want attention drawn to them just because they are girls. (Afraid they will be targeted and he might be right.)

As to my mothering role: I just do the best I can and hope it all turns out, for her sake.

[Finder]

7. I would have smacked her. n/t

[ismnotwasm]

8. Ew.

I hate to say this, but I think I would have lost it. The only thing that would have kept me about 3 inches from her face screaming is the presence of the children. And I'm a well built muscular women. I come from a VERY rough background, although I no longer come across that way.

It sounds like the woman may come from a similar background, her language alone speaks volumes. People like that (like me) use words for shock value, they feel no constraints on words or phrases that the courteous usually don't use. They pride themselves on those words, because they have little else. It's an attempt to hide insecurity. And to me, she hates being a female, else way limit the ability of girls even verbally?

I probably would have said something equally horrible. In fact I know I would have. It would have involved her genealogy, her lever of intelligence, maybe her place of residence, which relative she was currently fucking, what particular drug she was addicted to, and who beat her stupid that morning.
(Then you watch the face and body language,once you find the comment that hurt the most, that's the one you dig at. It can get out of hand if one party doesn't back down.)

You're restraint was remarkable. Truly. I'm glad it wasn't me, I would have made it worse.

[melnjones]

10. I'm sure you already know of this...

but in case not, your daughter needs to see this website http://www.womensfootballcentral.com/

[geniph]

12. Godalmighty, can't people let kids play GAMES

that aren't WARS? That whole comment, "we haven't scored yet" speaks volumes to me. I'll bet her kids feel sick before playing too - because she makes it a competition for Alpha Dog, for King Shit of Turd Mountain, she makes it a fucking WAR. Little kids should be playing for FUN. The goddam parents shouldn't even be keeping score; they should be more interested in whether the kids are having fun, getting some exercise, making friends - you know, playing GAMES.

Ick. I'd have a private word with the coach about allowing parents to be verbally abusive, either to the kids or to other parents. That lady's going to get herself coldcocked one of these days, by opening her big mouth to the wrong person in the wrong place. Most leagues have rules against parents being verbally abusive; games can be forfeited for that kind of behavior. If she can't control herself, then perhaps she should be asked to remove her children from the team, or not attend their games.

What the fuck is WRONG with people, that they can't just let kids have fun without worrying about whether they're "winning" or playing the "wrong" way?! And why do people insist on sexualizing children so early, forcing them into gender-confined roles?

[wicket]

13. You showed much more restraint that I could have

I would've clocked her!

Good for your daughter for playing and I'm sorry you both have to put up with this shit :hug:

[WildClarySage]

16. My husband and I both serve on the board of directors

for our local soccer league. If a parent had been acting that way at one of our games, a referee would have escorted her off the field. (I realize it's different in football- harder for refs to witness, etc) Children should never be exposed to that type of behavior. I would recommend writing a note to the league president so that he/she can keep an eye out for that type of language/behavior in the future, or even make an inquiry into the current incident. Other parents must have been able to hear the comments. When a child is made to feel uncomfortable during a league event, the league needs to know so that they can take action to protect the players.

[bliss_eternal]

17. Why would a woman put down little girls...?

I don't know. I think it's a hideous practice.

Try asking one of my sil's, who seems to practically take pleasure in being hard on my niece. She's got to know she's cruel to her, because she casually brings it up in conversation...

"...Well, I'm hard on ____ because the world is hard on women....I just want her to be prepared for that, and not expect any special treatment." :eyes:

How about making her home a haven from the storm? How about giving her a place that's safe to express how tough things are, instead of making it an adversarial war zone? Why should her home be antagonistic and difficult so she has nowhere and no one to talk to and thinks that life is about being beat down incessantly, even by those that are supposed to protect her...? How about that?

This is what I TRIED to say to her the times she shared this ignorant shit in my presence. I'm thankful that the woman is no longer a part of our lives, but I frequently wonder (and hope) my niece is well and won't be damaged for life in that house.

[ismnotwasm]

18. Yes, How ABOUT that?

Or guiding a young girl to a young woman with the arsenal she'll really need: Self esteem, strength and confidence? You don't do that by being cruel.
I know about "tough love" and while it's a great tool in the appropriate situation, I've seen it used as a excuse to be just plain shitty to another human being, because of pretty sick minds.

It sounds like you're well rid of the woman. Hope your niece is doing ok.
:hi:

[bliss_eternal]

19. Maybe...

when she's older and out of their house, she'll remember dh and I,what we tried to give her and come looking for us... (we hope.) ;)

:hi:

[mrreowwr_kittty]

20. Tough love

Aaargh!! :grr: :puke: :mad: :argh:

As you say, in the right conditions, teaching discipline through adversity is useful and beneficial. For me, my military training was an example of that (although that can, and does, get out of hand at times). There has to be a clear goal and a clear end. Berating and bullying that is ongoing and pointless can have the opposite effect. It can destroy a child's confidence and self-worth, whether from a parent, teacher, or peer group.

[bliss_eternal]

21. I agree...

It is infuriating, isn't it? It was very difficult for me to be around bil, sil and our niece for those reasons. Coupled with the fact that I was treated in a similar manner growing up. As an adult it's kind of surreal to see it happening to someone else and feel powerless to do anything about it. No wonder, our niece spent most of the time we were there attached to my hip. She barely let me out of her sight. :cry: I guess I was the only one that paid "positive" attention to her.

It's especially hard when the parent is so busy making excuses for behaviour you haven't even called them on. :eyes: Gives me the sense they know what they are doing is bullshit and wrong. :mad: