Some Openness And Honesty

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

Not really sure how to go about this. I guess I'll just go off the top of my head. Some of you here have gotten a completely wrong view of who I am or what I'm about when I post in gender slanted threads. There is probably a common feeling amongst many of you that I am against women's rights or harbor resentment towards women in general. This could not be further from the truth. I will lay the blame squarely on my shoulders, however, for having contributed to that perception. I will try my best in what follows to explain a bit more accurately about myself in relation to gender based issues. Like I said, this is coming from the top of my head to my fingers on the keyboard, so forgive me if the flow is not perfect.

I want to start at the heart of the matter: The concept of being a man. I consider that in and of itself to be one of the biggest factors in my reactions. Contrary to what some of you probably assume, I have never bought in to the whole 'masculinity' thing. In fact, I'm quite the opposite. I'm a thin as a rail 5'6" guy in case any of you were wondering, so from an appearance standpoint I have more the body of some anorexic model than I do some beer burpin slob. As far as the whole 'be a man' mentality, I've never partaken in it. Since I was a kid, I never understood why that was the way as a man I was expected to be. Maybe I have my father to thank for that, since though he loves his women, he's never acted 'macho' either. In fact he's a very kind loving man who used to love Melrose Place and Beverly Hills 90210, loved layin out in the sun, never drank, never abused my mother, and was never of the 'sports' mentality. Did love his Yankees though.

Getting back to me, I have been uncomfortable my entire life being around men who are 'proud' to be 'men', if ya know what I mean. I've never felt the need to have to do well in sports, I've never felt some false sense of superiority by thinking I'm better than a woman, cause I'm a man. I've never ogled at women considered sexy and have always in a way been disgusted at men who pick up the male magazines and actually convince themselves that's what being a man is about or that there is some type of 'bonding' that's supposed to take place by agreeing with each other that 'oh yeah, she's a hottie'. I've never engaged in the hoots and hollers and I've never partaken in the loud and obnoxious beer toasting female objectifying high fiving concept. I most certainly have never considered abusing a woman, and find those that do as the epitome of cowards. (Disclaimer: I will attest to hitting my mother as a child and being violent at times towards her, but that was in defense of the severe physical abuse she thrust upon me, and had nothing to do with her gender.)

All of those things above are considered by many to be the stereotypical actions of someone who's a man. But I've always resented that. Every one of these things above I am disgusted by. When I see men acting in those ways I get a pit in my stomach and feel embarrassed for them. Disgusted: Best way to describe it. I think that, at the heart of the matter, is what feeds my reactions at times. I think the past behaviors of some men, the idealistic glorification of macho male stereotyping crap that we get shoved down our throats on tv, in ads, and otherwise, are what drive this perception of manhood. But I think the numbers of men who are more like me then the stereotypical male type above, are actually in the majority in our country. Most men I know are truly decent and would not partake in most of the things above either. But what gets to me is that to this day merely being a man can cause all of these disgusting ideals above to be thrown into an assumptive perception within many a woman's mind. I've been friends with far more women in my lifetime then men and have been non-sexually close with a ton of them. Having been close with that many women, one of the things I've seen regularly is that to many of them, a man is a stereotypical man by default and he must prove himself otherwise to be considered a 'good guy'. I think far more could be accomplished if we were considered the same as anybody else first, and through violation of trust or action could only be viewed as a 'typical male'.

To sum up much of the mentality I'm awkwardly and probably not effectively trying to portray above, I'll provide a quick anecdote. Though I had several girlfriends prior, it was not until I was 17 that I had my first true love. It was the first time someone fell for me first without me even thinking I had a shot to begin with, or having yet even tried to win them over. I won the love of this older girl quite simply: We were standing at the bottom of my driveway and she was talking about how she's sick of men. Sick of how they screw her over, how they treat her, how they just act like men. Without even giving it much thought, and just reacting sincerely, I plainly and nonchalantly said "hey, I'm not a man. I'm just me. Damned if I want to be grouped together with those pigs". I didn't know it at the time, but that simple statement made her fall for me, I found out later.

I've always believed in that statement since that day: I'm not a man, I'm just me. I never wanted to be a 'Man', as in the connotations and actions that are supposed to go along with being one. I've always been disgusted by such concepts. But as I've grown, I've learned to realize that I am a man after all, but that maybe it's the men who abuse, belittle, objectify and act like grade schoolers, who aren't at all men. They are cowards and they are morons.

So what does all this mean? It means I felt the need to express certain things because it twists my stomach to think that I'm giving the impression I'm one of them. I can't stand them. I can't stand cowards and I can't stand those that would treat anybody else regardless of race, gender or otherwise, as anything less than equal. I'm offended by their actions and their thoughts and think they should be ashamed of themselves. But that's where it gets to me and causes me to react as I do in some of those threads. It's because I don't view those types as men. To me they are almost a lower form of life. They aren't male or female at all. They are merely selfish cowards who suffer from greed and need for power and control. They are pieces of shit in my opinion. So when I see posts that call them men, and even though many will include the disclaimer of 'some' men, I still feel associated with their dirtiness and disgusting behavior. That's why I feel those threads to be unfair in ways. Even offering up the 'some' men disclaimer still leaves many of the other men who are good men feeling as if they share in the resentment, even if they don't partake in those things themselves or even if they're equally disgusted by the behavior. Though it might not be intended, there is often a tone of anger towards men in general that is implied.

But as I've said, I don't think that's right. I respond as I do because I feel a need to stand up and say we're just people, like anyone else. We aren't men, we're just 'us'. But I must also recognize that some of my defense in those threads comes from the sheer disgust and anger at having to be associated with those that commit such things. I know I'm not alone though. I firmly believe that more men are disgusted by that behavior then there are those that partake in it. For those reasons, I've always wondered why do we have to call them men at all? Why when there are in fact so many men in this country that are just normal everyday people who respect women equally should there still not be a distinction between the piece of shit man and the regular just gettin through life treat women with respect man. I would love it if the feminist movement could start making a distinction between them. I would think that in and of itself could do wonders for women's rights discussions in respect to them not degrading into gender war. Why not take gender out of it, while leaving it in? I think it's time we stop labeling those that commit the offenses against women 'Men', and come up with something unique to call them that will make it very clear to anyone hearing it who it is in reference to. Cause to say 'men', it by default makes some men defensive because of them being inherently in the group. But if only there was some catchy new term to use instead, both men and women could focus equally on eradicating them. Because I don't think that it's a problem of 'men' vs 'women'. I think it's a battle of civilized intellect versus complete unevolved piece of shit morons. Both men and women can be of the civilized intellect, and only those that commit such things as abuse, objectification, and demeaning actions towards others would be included in the latter. So it wouldn't be a gender war anymore. It would be right vs wrong.

I know I really babbled the hell out of that paragraph, but like I said: top of my head to my fingers on the keyboard, probably coulda said it a whole lot better if planned. But the point I was trying to make was this: Isn't that what the women's rights movement comes down to? Isn't it quite simply right vs wrong? If so, is it really women vs men at all then? Cause I would think it far more accurate to call it the former. Is domestic or sexual abuse wrong? Absolutely. Do all men do it? Hell no. Is getting paid less for doing the same job wrong? Better believe it. In fact, I think it's one of the most disgraceful things in this country that in the 21st century this is still an issue. We know better than that by now. I don't know how some businesses can get away with that. Moving on, do all men think they deserve more pay? I must attest to not knowing one man who thinks they should. Is it right to dictate to a woman what she is to do with her own body, or take away her rights to decide that for herself? Fuck no it isn't. But that isn't limited to gender either. Is it appropriate that some still turn a dismissive eye towards certain forms of rape and domestic violence? Absolutely not. There should be no tolerance of such things and no bullshit excuses accepted. But these concepts are not specific to gender either.

What it all comes down to in my opinion is human decency towards others. I think everything involved with women's rights simply comes down to a quite logical right vs wrong, rather than men vs women. It comes down to a mentality of equality, tolerance, confidence, intellect, logic and integrity vs a mentality of hatred, cowardice masked by false bravado, greed, need for power and control, false entitlement and ignorance. Now I'll readily admit that there are far greater numbers of males that are guilty of the latter then are females, but there are a whole lot of males that fall within the former as well. I just wish it didn't have to be termed as men vs women. I'm disgusted by the actions of those who would violate the rights of women and would rather not be associated with them by group. I react as I do because I feel like those threads are pushing forward the premise that it is about men. Maybe I'm unique in my view of it, I don't know. But I consider it to merely be right vs completely fucking ignorantly wrong.

So I'm aware many of you may still not agree with me. But I wanted to at least explain, if not woefully inadequately, what my mentality truly is. I have always defended the rights of women and have always defended the rights of anybody. I've throughout my life on many occasions torn into men for treating women badly, and even once got the shit pummeled out of me for pulling into a parking lot after seeing a boyfriend hit his girlfriend, and attempting to restrain him from striking her again. I've never tolerated nor partaken in the 'Here's To Men!' type mentality. I think striking a woman is the most cowardly thing someone can do, I think rape is the most heinous of crimes, I think lesser pay for equal work is one of the most disgraceful things still allowed to exist in our corporate environment, and I think those that objectify women as property are disgraceful in their thoughts.

I'm sure there are many other things I've omitted here and things that you in this group are fighting towards that maybe I couldn't even begin to relate to. I'll admit that. I just simply wanted to lay my truth of person out on the table just to do so. I didn't write this for a back and forth conceptual type discussion, my desire was more just of personal honesty and openness. I hope it is received as such.

So in closing, I wish it didn't have to be termed men vs women. I wish those men that act in such disgraceful ways had a term all their own, that would catch on across the population and become the new term for describing them, without having to include the rest of a gender at the same time. But until that time, I will make a vow to do my best to avoid further women's rights/gender threads as much a possible for now on and not partake in any gender based flame wars in the future.

All I ask is that we remember as much as possible: All of us are just people: Overall decent, caring, well-intentioned people. I am not a man. I am just me. I do not view you as a woman. I view you as being you. I judge people on who they are as people, not by what pairing of chromosomes they have. We are all just people, breathing in and breathing out. Some of us know what is right and how others of all races, genders and otherwise are to be treated, and some of us are still unevolved egomaniacal morons that think for a second they are even better than anybody. That's how I view things, it's how I've always viewed things.

Peace to ya all. I'm outtie.

[noamnety]

1. I'm inclined to say "Deal with it."

We all realize it's not all men perpetuating such offenses. At the same time, most of us realize the vast majority of men do receive male privilege whether or not they contribute to the systemic attitudes toward/against women or not.

The best comparison I can make is that some of us are also white. We attempt to not be racist assholes, obviously. But most of us also realize we've been raised with certain attitudes, and inundated with messages from the media. Thus it's our responsibility to listen when another person tells us we've offended them in some way. Not to be offended - but to LISTEN to them. We all screw up from time to time, with choice of words, with hidden attitudes we didn't even realize we had. Sometimes they are exposed in the light of day, sometimes we hear or read something that gives us a flash of recognition of something wrong in ourselves that we are fortunate enough to reevaluate in private, without public scrutiny. But what we ought never to do is get mad that somebody pointed out an offense, or dared to talk about racism as a SYSTEMIC problem, for obviously it is.

It is counterproductive for me to tell a black person I'm offended by their discussions of racism. If they are talking about how white folks as a whole treat them, I don't need to chime in to say "that's not all white people." They know that. I know that. If they are talking about racism, to paraphrase Julian Real, that's the time for me to adopt a posture of listening.

Likewise, if women are talking about being oppressed as women in some way, you need to recognize that it is not individual cases; it's the cultural norm. Demanding that we treat it as individual cases is not helpful. It's not helpful to act as though violence against women is being perpetrated by "a few bad apples" and we need to individually weed those out through the court system with its stunning 2% sentencing rate. Demanding that we stop talking about it as if it's a cultural norm is not helpful. It's a means of silencing us.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

10. Really liked what you said

It is counterproductive for me to tell a black person I'm offended by their discussions of racism. If they are talking about how white folks as a whole treat them, I don't need to chime in to say "that's not all white people." They know that. I know that. If they are talking about racism, to paraphrase Julian Real, that's the time for me to adopt a posture of listening.

That analogy nails it. Why must women constantly be expected to preface every statement with "I know not all men are like this but..."? We're even expected to do it when talking to the men who ARE like that! Geez Louise. Can you think of any other situation where this is consistently the case? General statements, positive and negative, are made about women all the time and rarely is there a disclaimer of exceptions offered.

Sorry, but I'm not pulling Ruffled Male Feathers Smoothing Duty 24/7 anymore. If the OP truly behaves the way he describes, then guess what, he is simply being a decent human being. Nothing more, nothing less. He is not entitled to unctious flattery and a life time free pass from any criticism.

Besides, I've read numerous posts from the OP and I have a reaaaaaally hard time believing he is such a mensch in his day-to-day interactions. He probably has one of those personal attributional bias things going on.

[ThomCat]

11. That analogy goes even farther.

Athiests are constantly told to preface every discussion about organized religion with disclaimers acknowledging that there are some good Christians. GLTB people are asked to acknowledge that there are some good straight people. People with disabilities are asked to acknowledge that not all straight people look down on us and put barriers in our way.

Every groups that faces discrimination is expected to acknowledge how good the members of the dominant group are just because not every member of that dominant group actively participates in the discrimination.

It's just one more part of the privilage that the dominant group expects and enjoys. They have the right to be acknowledged for how good they are.

As a gay/bi, athiest, vegan with a disability I am on one side of that divide. As a white man I am on the other.

I have come to the opinion that nobody is entitled to acknowledgement for being an exception. If they truly deserve it they will know it through the friendships that cross the border. Nobody is entitled to a pat on the back simply as an automatic acknowledgement that exceptions exist.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

22. Indeed.

And it's been my experience that whenever someone goes out of his/her way to point out a particular laudable characteristic they have, the opposite is often true. If you really have it you are too busy acting on it to advertise it.

[bliss_eternal]

27. Well written post, lwfern...!

Really enjoyed reading this, I found myself nodding along in agreement as I read. :hi: Thanks for putting the feelings of so many in words so succinctly, yet so profoundly.

[StrongbadTehAwesome]

2. I have to agree with lwfern.

I know you said you don't want back and forth, and thus it is your choice to completely ignore my response, but it really seems like you've never been told (or have been told and subsequently ignored) the reasons WHY your attitude is harmful. If you don't read this, that's up to you, but I wouldn't be able to sleep tonight if I didn't at least try.

Here's the thing -- as a man, you're speaking from a position of privilege whenever gender issues are discussed. Often this privilege may not even be noticeable to you. But whenever you feel the need to change the debate from "we find these actions sexist and harmful" to "there are a few cretins out there doing a bad thing, but most men are lovely people with unimpeachable character whose existence we should be grateful for"...that's a distraction. It's also insulting and arrogant because it makes the issue all about you and how you're SO MUCH BETTER than the average asshole. How are we expected to move forward on any issue of gender equality, when the discussion is always pulled off course in this manner?

Your quote, "I am not a man. I am just me. I do not view you as a woman. I view you as being you," sounds to me for all the WORLD like Stephen Colbert's "I don't see color. I know I'm white because people tell me that" satire. If you were really "just you," and your identity didn't derive in some way from being male, then you wouldn't be proposing that we create a new and special term for sexist men, to set them apart from yourself.

And just so you know, the assholes aren't as infrequent as you think.

As a man, you're not really in the best position to judge how the majority of other men treat women. We'd all love it if there were only a few low-life assholes out there, but trust me, we see it much more often than you do. Being the objectified/sexualized class, we in essence become walking fuckhead detectors, For example: my hair. I'm a fairly youg, attractive woman, if I do say so myself. When I wore my hair long and styled, the assholes ID'd themselves with lewd catcalls and completely uninvited touching. Now that my head is shaved, the same amount of attention is directed at me in the form of scorn and mutters of "f***ing dyke..." But the attention is ALWAYS there. My appearance is ALWAYS something other people feel they have the right to comment loudly on. It becomes public discourse in a way that I know your appearance does not, especially not on a daily basis. Now, you are not one of these assholes, in that you do not act as they do. But you are one of themm in that they would never direct this behavior AT you. Privilege. Thus you'll never know how frequent the jerkitude really is, unless you ask women, and then LISTEN to them.

To go back to the race analogy offered above, I DO truly understand how it disgusts you to be lumped in with the cretins. I've followed many a discussion on race in which the worst racist behaviors of white people were pointed out and trashed, and it makes me want to yell, "I hate those assholes, too! I'm not like that!" But that is NOT productive; it is NOT what the discussion is about. The discussion is about oppression as linked to race, and ways to combat and overcome that. Making it all about me would be wrong and would hinder progress. Making it about right vs. wrong instead of white oppression of non-whites is a LIE. Just because I'm white and I abhor racism, that doesn't mean that the clerks at Nordstrom's will stop tailing my black friend with security and leaving me entirely alone whenever we shop there. It doesn't mean she can now buy "flesh" colored bandages that actually match her skin tone. It doesn't mean she's no longer assumed to be applying for a secretarial position when she's actually a recent PhD grad looking for work as a professor. So whenever people I know bring up race issues, I listen and learn, so I can call others out the next time I notice it going on. All too often, since I have the same problems with white privilege as anyone else, they bring something up I'd never even really noticed about before, like the band-aid thing, or the fact that Bill Clinton's recent lunch with bloggers was a room filled only with white people. Listening allows me to become more aware, so I can call people out in the future when I catch racist crap going on.

THAT is how you can help. Listen, and learn, and be willing to say a few words against subtle sexism when it pops up. No need to 'lay into' anyone, but a just a simple, "Hey, can you maybe quit joking that the secretaries are 'your bitches', please? That's offensive." Or whatever other bit of sexist fun actually pops up in your life instead of mine.

Is this making sense?







(Edited for punctuation/clarity.)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

6. May I add that men may not be aware of some of the everyday petty

offenses because the asshole jerks will not commit them if the woman is or appears to be in the company of a man.

On a thread in the Women's Rights forum I tell of a case in which a young man didn't believe that his girlfriend had to walk a gauntlet of obscenity-spouting cretins to get to class every morning, because this never happened on the days after he had spent the night and they walked to class together. But one day, she asked him to walk a few paces behind so that the wolves wouldn't know they were together, and THEN he saw what she had to put up with.

There may also be institutional attitudes that men are not aware of. When I was in graduate school, every woman in my program was subjected to set of attitudes ranging from hostility and sabotage to neglect. (Neglect was the best one could hope for, and my situation as a neglected graduate student was so much better than that of the other women students, who were being ridiculed, belittled, sabotaged, and sexually harrassed, that I didn't realize I was getting a bad deal until a younger male student came in and suddenly received a lot of privileges from our mutual advisor that had never been mentioned to me.)

I have no complaints about the men graduate students, except for one who used to grope women under the table during seminars. Few men will ever suffer the indignity of unwanted groping during a serious occasion, but the lecherous asshole made unwanted advances on all the women in the department. (We all sighed with relief when he was expelled from the department for plagiarism.)

He wasn't the first or the last predator I've encountered. I haven't been raped, but that's only because a male acquaintance happened along as a potential rapist was trying to drag me into his car, so that the potential rapist let go of me, jumped into his car, and sped off. It's the rare man who has to worry about being abducted off the street to be raped and/or murdered--maybe if he's done something to offend organized crime, but not otherwise--but it's always a possibility for any woman. A man may be killed in his own home if he interrupts a burglary, but it is highly unlikely that someone will break into his house in the middle of the night specifically to rape and murder HIM.

I could go on about the insensitive, hurtful, or even malicious situations in my personal life or "move the goalposts" treatment in my professional life, but the list of grievances isn't the point.

The point is that men are sheltered from a lot of the crap that women have to put up with, and so they have NO IDEA how much it can wear us down. They also can remain blissfully unaware of the institutional structures and societal structures that hinder us, because these structures are either beneficial or neutral to them.

So as I said in the other thread, it's not about you. Chill.

[prole_for_peace]

26. my bf is a really nice guy who doesn't have any problem with women

like some guys do but he had not noticed how some guys talk down to women or act like we are stupid. once he was with me when i was making a fairly large furniture purchase and the salesman kept talking to him. the bf would tell the guy "talk to her. she's the one buying this" but the guy kept on doing it. it was almost like i wasn't even there. needless to say i DIDN'T buy the stuff from that salesman. anyway the point of this is that the bf brings this up all the time now. it has been about 8 years since that happened but he will say "that guy just ignored you. even after i KEPT telling him that it was all you." he was really amazed at the whole thing.

now when i repeat things that happen he gets ticked off about the whole thing

[ThomCat]

49. Unfortunately, we don't see it until it's shown to us.

I was in college before I started paying attention to how girls and women are treated. I don't remember who first pointed it out to me, or what the situation was. There was so much happening all at once. But I remember feeling it like a slap in the face. I started noticing double standards and poor treatment all over the place.

[Lars39]

3. Got too many mod warnings, huh?

Very disingenuous OP,imo.

[bliss_eternal]

29. LOL...

can't say your suggestion doesn't have an air of truth about it. :rofl::spray:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

36. Actually, I've Never Received A Mod Warning Ever, In My Entire Time Here.

Any Mod or Admin can vouch for that. Since this was not in a reply to a post that had anything to do with the topic, I didn't mind addressing it. I don't plan to respond any further. But I did want to at least publicly state that the accusations of the two posts above, as far as intent for my OP/potential history of warnings, were both blatantly and completely wrong.

So much for that theory. :rofl: :spray:



(disclaimer: I have chosen to not respond to contextual posts in this thread out of respect to this group. This OP wasn't intended as a back and forth type invasive to the group post. I figured it probably wouldn't turn out to be that productive if I kept responding etc.. But I at least wanted to get my truth out there. I have read the replies, however, and found several that contained some points of enlightenment.)

[bliss_eternal]

37. The person you communicated w/prior...

...lwfern, already responded letting me and others know why you probably had not responded. The post is further down on this thread--fyi.

But I do find it rather interesting after all you said above, THIS is what you chose to respond to. It seems to be all about ego with you, despite the monologue you wrote to the contrary. This one response successfully negates all of your alleged "truth" above.

How very flattering that you care so much what we think of you, to take the time to let us all know you're on such great terms on the boards. :eyes:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

39. With All Due Respect,

I fail to see how providing fact in rebuttal to a public smear statement is reason for you to have a bitter or offended tone in reply. I also fail to see how it negates anything whatsoever in the OP, since it had nothing to do with it at all.

I decided when I originally posted this OP that out of respect the best thing to do was not start a back and forth. But that applied to the topic of this forum and the context of the OP, which is feminism. Defending myself against a public and personal character attack outside of any context is a different matter altogether, and one I'd think anyone and everyone should be expected and encouraged to respond to, when they are the victims of. So I'm not sure why my doing so would upset you in any way, since all I did was have the record set straight by the source itself. It in no way has to do with ego and in no way implies I have any 'great standing' on these boards. It was a simple, factual and direct statement simply saying that I have not received any mod warnings. That doesn't make me in any 'greater standing' than anyone else.

But I still think that when personal accusations and attacks are thrown around, the victim should have the ability and right to address the accusation directly, don't you? When republicans smear Democratic members of congress do we think those members are showing ego when they try and provide fact in rebuttal to the false statement? Or do we honor them for their taking a stand and not letting the repubs get away with it?

I saw a personally attacking statement made against me that now others responded to as if it were truth. I think it's only fair that I speak for myself, and declare it to have been completely without merit. I'm not sure there's due cause to be angry or annoyed with me for having done so.

Goodnight.

[bliss_eternal]

41. Back so soon...?

Quote:
I don't plan to respond any further.

Promises, promises. We've really got to stop meeting like this. :eyes:

I wasn't the one to initially make the statement, yet you felt the need to respond to me. Interesting...

I wasn't aware that my merely agreeing with a hypothetical, offhanded remark was enough to give it credibility as fact. Wow--Good to know!!! Thank you for pointing this out to me, I wasn't aware of this great power. What an awesome, immense ability that I possess!!! :bounce:

Note to self--harness this magnificent power to help all of mankind.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

43. LOL

My Quote:
I don't plan to respond any further.

Your Quote:
"Promises, promises. We've really got to stop meeting like this."

You consider a statement of "I don't plan to" to mean the same as "You have my word and promise I will not respond further"? :rofl:

Quote:
"I wasn't the one to initially make the statement, yet you felt the need to respond to me. Interesting..."

That's right, you weren't. You responded to it in agreement while attempting to give it credence and validity. Once I saw that, and that maybe others might jump on the 'personal smear gravy train' as well, I figured I might as well address the issue directly. You will notice I reference BOTH posts in my reply, and figured replying to your post and keeping within the same chain would encompass the remarks made by you both. Neither did I claim nor imply that you initiated the absurd claim... ...but you did attempt to lend credence to it.

Quote:
"I wasn't aware that my merely agreeing with a hypothetical, offhanded remark was enough to give it credibility as fact. Wow--Good to know!!!"

You weren't aware for a reason: Because it doesn't give it credibility as fact, nor did I claim it had. Assumptive and attacking claims rarely bolster an argument or provide credibility. But by agreeing with it and ammending further to it like you had, it propagates the silly claim further and leaves it open-ended for others to join in with as well. Therefore, as I always do when attacked personally, I defended the attack by simply providing factual truth to the silliness.

On a serious note, I find it somewhat amusing that you are taking to heart so much the fact that I simply stepped up and provided pure truth in defense of a false accusation. I mean, is there seriously something wrong with that in your opinion; for someone to do that when attacked or smeared?

I don't know about you, but when I see personal claims about me made that are patently false, I generally will step right up and provide truth to them. Not sure that's an undesirable quality. Frankly, I find it quite honorable.

[bliss_eternal]

44. Wow...

all this from my little comments. So much attention, I just don't know what to do with myself. :blush:

Note to self--harness this power soon, it is obviously overwhelming in it's scope. Must. Get. Control. Over. New. Ability.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

45. Wow...

Talk about ego....

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[bliss_eternal]

46. This seems rather transparent to me...

and I see you and your original post as hypocritical and self serving, considering everything you've just said to me.

You've successfully contradicted your alleged "truth." Your need to argue, be right and get the last word seems to outweigh anything and everything else you've said here.

Reminder--This is the feminist forum, what you are doing now is not serving the discussion of feminist ideals. I'd like to suggest this "exchange" ceases.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

47. May Seem Transparent To You, But I Found None Of It To Be Accurate.

"I see you and your original post as hypocritical and self serving, considering everything you've just said to me."

Now there's a stretch. All I've done here is defend factually against a baseless smear. How that in any way, shape, or form contradicts or shows to be hypocritical anything said in the OP is quite an enigma, especially given the fact that the smear, as well as the defense of it, was completely outside of the OP's context.

"You've successfully contradicted your alleged "truth." "

Again, how is defending against a baseless smear contradictory to anything I've said in the OP? In fact, how does a statement of 'No, you're wrong, I've received no such warnings ever from the mods' even relate to the topic of the OP, take away from it, or in even the slightest ways relate to feminism, my reactions to it, or my statements on my perception of it? You're really stretching here in my opinion.

"Your need to argue, be right and get the last word seems to outweigh anything and everything else you've said here."

Wait, so you're not guilty of the same? And for the record, if you truly think that my standing up and providing fact to baseless assertions is so evil that it outweighs my sincere message in the OP, then more power to ya. But don't mind me if I completely disagree with that perception.

"Reminder--This is the feminist forum, what you are doing now is not serving the discussion of feminist ideals. "

Now this, I would also consider to be a statement of hypocrisy, if we are going to label things as such. Tell me, was your contribution to the smear on me serving the discussion of feminist ideals? If it wasn't, than that statement is in fact a sentiment of hypocrisy. The fact of the matter is, the smears I responded to were completely outside the context of a feminist topic, therefore my responses to such smears would by default be outside the context of feminist discussion as well. But don't put that on me, I'm not one of the two posters that took that discussion off topic to begin with, now was I.

"I'd like to suggest this "exchange" ceases."

I would suggest it as well. :hi:

[bliss_eternal]

48. Whatever...

It's obvious who and what you REALLY have a problem with, even if that's NOT obvious to you. That's transparent.

Since you obviously have nothing better to do, than to defend your honour to a total stranger on an internet board--have at it. Knock yourself out. We all know how important it is to do so. :crazy: "...bliss laughed and agreed with someone sayin' something wrong about me....waaaaaah!" Yet YOU dare to bring up ego. Transparent.

Personally, I could give less than half of a damn what someone that I will probably never meet in this lifetime thinks about me. But again, nice to know you care. :eyes:

Have your precious last word. Say something incredibly mature and break out your laughing smilies, while you pretend to find humour in things you can't even begin to comprehend.

You go right ahead and continue to invalidate your original screenplay about being a man. Do let us know when you sell that fantasy novella of yours, and it is scheduled to premiere on the sci fi network.:eyes:

[VelmaD]

4. thanks you to the other who have replied...

you did so more eloquently and with more tolerance of this individual than I could have. And you are all dead on. I find it somewhat disturbing that he has followed us into this group...though maybe he'll read and learn something.

[Marie26]

5. Oh, great.

Is there no escaping these posters? There is already a topic forum for discussion of "women's issues", from any perspective. This forum is a DU group, intended for women or men to discuss issues from a feminist perspective.

Feminism Forum - About this Group

- This is not a group to discuss gender, class or sexual orientation rights and issues. It is specifically to discuss women's rights and issues as they affect women from a woman's perspective and experience.

- If, for example, you believe that women have already achieved "full participation in the mainstream of American society..., exercising all privileges and responsibilities thereof in truly equal partnership with men... in all aspects of citizenship, public service, employment, education, and family life,"* then this is not the group for you..

- The terms "feminist/feminism" and "misogyny" have established meanings in the context of women's history. While terminology may be debated, the denigration of these relevant terms will not be allowed.

- Attempts to minimize or dismiss women and/or the issues being discussed are not welcome.

I have seen you minimize & dismiss women and feminist issues too often to believe you are someone who has a true interest in reconciliation, or someone who should be posting here at all. I'm sorry. Maybe you could also post this in General Discussion?

[Bunny]

7. This is one of the most unintentionally funny, and revealing,

OP's I have ever read.

[MuseRider]

9. I agree.

I think this forum has pretty well answered his questions.

[bliss_eternal]

38. ....I agree, Bunny.

:hi:

[MuseRider]

8. Lotta things here

and most covered far more eloquently that I ever could by my friends in this group.

One thing I did want to say.

You want us to come up with a way to distinguish between the good guys and the bad guys? You want US to do that? Are you serious? The one thing that sets me off on men more than any other is the utter lack of responsibility for your own behavior. It is always for someone else to fix. "I was a baaaad boy", lips pouted out with big sorrowful eyes. No, you were not a bad boy just a regular asshole who wants someone else to fix it while you go on your marry, un hassled way.

I refuse to have to indicate that not all men are like that because by your not stepping in and calling your brothers on their loutish behavior you are a large part of the problem. Do you really think that women can do any more than stand up for themselves and call men who act like that out? We can't change you, you have to change you. The fact of the matter is that we changed long ago and you did not keep up for whatever self serving reason. I am an Uppity Woman and proud to say that I was able to grow beyond the limits that were put on me as a girl. Why do men not want to evolve along with us? Hmmmmm?

Brava to all the answers above mine. There you have it.

[ThomCat]

12. You have said one of the Most Important things.

Women are not responsible for distinguishing the good guys from the bad guys. Safety often dictates that all men are a potential threat. As a man I understand this and accept it.

GLBTs are not responsible for distinguishing the good straight people from the bad ones. Until individual straight people prove that they are safe we need to be caution in many situations.

It is the same for every community that struggles for civil rights. Members of the dominant group need to prove they are safe. Members of the group that experiences the discrimination and violence cannot be expected to be psychic and just know who is safe and who is not.

And given that anyone in the dominant group could be a potential threat, we look for signs. If we see them, then that person is definitely a potential threat no matter how well intentioned.

The people who demand that they be accorded respect as an supposedly obvious exception are simply refusing to see things from other people's perspectives. Or they are privilaging their own perspective, which is just another manifestion of the prejudice they insist they don't have.

[VelmaD]

13. I'm stealing your last sentence...

because it expresses beautifully something I have been trying to wrap words around for a while. In so many threads about sexism there are men on DU who insist that they know better than the women they are talking to what is and is not "real" sexism and what feminism really is and is not. They are "privileging their own perspective, which is just another manifestation of the prejudice they insist they don't have". I love it. Thanks. :)

[ThomCat]

14. It is yours to use at any time. I claim no ownership.

:)

[MuseRider]

15. Wonderful post!

Thank you.

I use many of the things I have learned as a female when working with the GLBT groups. Our fights are much the same, well I guess equality issues are pretty much the same and they all come with a lot of violence from the groups who want to keep you down.

Every last man is a potential abuser to anyone who has ever been abused. That IS the way it is. Until men get out of their own ego to listen and accept that fact it will never really change enough to allow us not to always be on guard and suspect. Lots of the self defined "nice" men are the worst.

[lukasahero]

17. "Every last man is a potential abuser to anyone who has ever been abused."

I'll take that further. Every man is a potential danger to every woman until they have earned the trust deserved only of those who do not commit violence.

We teach our children not to talk to strangers - and right we should. No one takes offense at this because they understand the risk to the child involved if they don't look at all strangers that way.

We teach our young women not to trust unfamiliar men - and right we should. Especially in a culture where the question still asked of any young woman who finds herself a victim of violence will be "what was she doing there in the first place" and "doesn't she know any better"? There are courses given to all college fresh(wo)men about how to stay safe on campus. We offer escort services to help young women get to their cars safely. Self-defense courses are given for credit.

And yet, there are people who take offense at keeping our young women safe at the expense of hurting the "nice" guy's feelings. If he's a nice guy, he should want her to be safe and protect herself and worry a lot less about his own fragile feelings. If he wants her trust, he should be willing to earn it.

[Samurai_Writer]

21. You nailed it

In fact, I hope you don't mind, but I emailed your post to a few men I know... men who have EARNED my trust. :)

[mrreowwr_kittty]

25. Well said

Because the minute a woman is victimized, particularly in an assualt by an acquaintance, the Greek chorus of blamers emerges to condemn her for being too trusting.

Ted Bundy was known as a "nice guy".

[NMMNG]

33. Huh?

I'll take that further. Every man is a potential danger to every woman until they have earned the trust deserved only of those who do not commit violence.


Let's change a few words and see how this sounds:

Every Muslim is a potential danger to every American until they have earned the trust deserved only of those who do not commit violence.

Every woman is a potential gold-digger until they have earned the trust deserved only of those who earn their own keep.

Every white person is a potential bigot until they have earned the trust deserved only of those who are not bigots.




Is "guilty until proven innocent" really the way to go?

[lukasahero]

34. Not buying it

We teach our young women to protect themselves on campus for a reason: if they don't, they could die.

Sorry if it offends people to realize that most of the people doing the killing and raping of our young women are men. That's just the way it is and it's the young woman who is at risk. It is her personal safety I am concerned about. Maybe when men stop raping women, then my attitude will change too.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

35. I actually kind of agree with the last two statements

:-)

[Solly Mack]

16. huh?

You want men who are sexist to be called something other than men because the men who are misogynistic are not really men?

Because "real" men aren't sexist?

LMAO

[noamnety]

18. That struck me, too

"Real men" is a remarkably gender-loaded term coming from a person trying to make the claim that there is no such thing as "men" as a gender group - just people.

Just for the hell of it, I did a search on the phrase "real man." Here's the first result:

Trait #1: A real man is strong
A real man doesn't cry, doesn't moan, doesn't complain, doesn't get sick, and doesn't need to go to the doctor every time he sneezes. A real man makes decisions and lives with the consequences. A real man accepts responsibility for his actions and his words. A real man is firm. If life is a b*tch, a real man will slap her and move on. A real man is macho; a real man is tough; a real man doesn't show emotions. A real man is the backbone of his family and doesn't have time to be weak. If spiders scare you, you'll never be a real man.

Trait #2: A real man is focused
A real man knows the difference between what's important and what isn't. A real man doesn't waste time on stupidities that don't bring him any profit. Sure, there are things you can do as a hobby -- I like to shoot ducks -- but it must have a purpose. The purpose of my hobby is to improve my aim, and I don't have to tell you whether or not that's a useful thing in my line of work. A real man focuses on power, money and family. He doesn't focus on sex. Sex comes as a result of having power, money and a wife (and if she doesn't satisfy you, there are plenty of other women who will, especially when you are powerful and rich).

Trait #3: A real man knows the importance of family
A real man will keep his family strong and pass on his ancestors' history and traditions. A real man knows that his children are God's gift and should be treated as such, even if he disciplines them from time to time. A real man must also remember his other Family, his organization. In my world, both my family and my Family hold the same importance; I protect them both with all my might. If you have a Family, don't forget where your loyalties lie and who has your back when you need it.

Trait #4: A real man doesn't gossip
A real man keeps his mouth shut. He shelters information and rations his words. A real man does not reveal more than he has to and doesn't engage in girlie talk about others. A real man doesn't discuss things he doesn't know about or people he has never met.

more: http://www.askmen.com/money/mafioso_60/98_mafia.html

Alright, so that's possibly supposed to be a humor piece (?), but it's on a fairly popular website - 5 million hits per month - and apparently what people find to be humorous is "slapping bitches and moving on."

Then I did a search on the phrase "real woman" - except for an online quiz, this was the first hit:

Being a real woman is an art mostly pleasant, but demanding some skills and knowledge. As we all know, there are no unbeautiful women, there are women who don’t know that they’re beautiful. A woman is only what she makes it of herself. There are some tricks that make a woman the real one, and help her to bear that name proudly. These recommendations aren’t the rules. The only definite rule is the inner feeling of a woman that she is the one and the only, but never just one of a kind.

A real woman is independent. She’s always busy on her own business. It can be whatever – job, hobbies, interests. She has no time to deal with the problems and affairs of others. That doesn’t mean she is selfish and takes no compassion on others. She will always be there for her relatives and friends willing to listen to their complaints and to help.

A woman shouldn’t solve man’s problems. This prerogative is male . A man is the one supposed to take care of a woman.

A real woman can’t ever be had over the barrel. She is always well-dressed with her hair and make-up done. Be ready that anything can happen all of a sudden. You’ll say it is hard to look nice all the time – for a real woman it’s a habit.

more: http://peoplerelationships.syl.com/womenandrelationships/realwoman

I know these things are always bad, yet I am still surprised at them, for some reason.

[Solly Mack]

19. I know! Exactly

All I could think about was how gender-loaded the term is while reading the OP

I'm now supposed to deny the reality of living in a sexist society and call men something other than men to make men feel better about being men?

I don't think so.

[noamnety]

20. clarification/correction

The OP didn't say "real men" as has been privately pointed out to me, correctly so. It says "It's because I don't view those types as men."

Not clear on the difference if there is one, but since I put it in quotes, and it's not a direct quote, I'm acknowledging sloppiness on my part - I bristled at the concept in the OP, but picked up the term itself from Solly Mack. I'm signing myself up for the Debate 101 refresher course at the earliest opportunity. :)

[mrreowwr_kittty]

23. Ugh!!

Blecch! :puke:

That one about Real Men, is it for guys in the Mafia or something? What's the deal with the capital F in Family?

[noamnety]

24. Yeah, it's the guy's schtick I guess

I think it's supposed to be comedy - for men. After all, what better for men to have a good laugh at than smacking some women around?

[geniph]

32. "A real woman is always well-dressed...

...with her hair and make-up done"? Jeebus. I guess I've just been outed as an imposter of the feminine persuasion then.

What a thoroughly asinine statement that is. A real woman knows that anyone whose opinion is worth a warm bucket of spit is more interested in who she is, or what she can do, than whether her hair is a perfectly sprayed helmet and she has unsmudged lipstick. Good gawd.

[bliss_eternal]

28. Um...anyone notice...

original poster has not responded to anyone? What the hell? Was this merely a post and run...? :eyes:

Was this post an extension of the olive branch--so to speak I wonder because I fail to see an actual apology within it anywhere. :nopity:

Was this an effort to start a mutual conversation? A back and forth of some sort in an effort to create some sort of mutual understanding? I ask because I would be inclined to believe that would require the original poster to actually return and respond to some of what's been said--or at least state they will consider it.

Or is this merely the drafting of a monologue? A masturbatory effort of sorts? :think:

Color me confused.

[noamnety]

30. In fairness

he initiated a private conversation with me about something I'd written, and mentioned he'd decided not to respond here publically out of a concern that it would be interpreted as trolling. Especially after he was called out for following us into this forum, I can kind of understand that, and appreciated where he was coming from on that one point. I think it might be an attempt to uninvade our space, though that might be putting words in his mouth.

[bliss_eternal]

31. Oh, ok...I understand.

It was kind of a situation between the two of you. I apologize for misinterpreting. Thanks for the explanation, I appreciate it.

I'll keep my personal editorial comments regarding this poster and their comments to myself. ;)

:hi:

[melnjones]

40. The last post I remember you posting on,

you were completely unwilling to accept the frequency that women are sexually abused. Until you can accept the reality of the situation for the female gender, you have a long way to go.

[bliss_eternal]

42. Self delete

:hi: melnjones.

[varkam]

50. Locking.

Cheers,
varkam
DU Moderator