NYT: re evangelical megachurch for youth (see pic)

[oblivious]

...At New Life...the youth group sessions feel like rock concerts: T-shirts are on sale outside and bands are onstage, grinding their way through screaming songs of praise for Christ while teenagers dance before them...The youth pastor, Brent Parsley, entered on a sleigh dressed as a hip-hop Santa...

...The music began again. The young people ran toward the stage, but Emily went by herself to the aisle behind her seat. In the darkened hall, she was freer than she had been on Sunday. The band played a simple rock song, and everybody shouted the lyrics over and over: "Bless the Lord with all that's in me. Bless the Lord. May kingdoms fall and rulers crawl before your throne."

Emily threw her head back and sang and sang. Then she fell to her knees. Bent forward at the waist, rocking, she sang into her curled body what others shouted to the rafters: "I want to give you all of me. I'm giving you all of me."
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/30/national/30church.html

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

1. Cult-like, mass hysteria

Future generation of the religiously insane.:crazy:

[MN ChimpH8R]

2. Baa baaa BAA baa BAAA!

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

6. ROTFLMAO!!! Awesome graphic you have there!!!

[MN ChimpH8R]

12. Right-click on it and check properties

That will tell ya what the link is.

[Peter Frank]

34. I already did...

...and saved it.

[JanMichael]

3. Kids today...Wtf?

Flailing around all hot sweaty and bothered over...AC/DC...no...RATM...no...Wham...no...Buddy Jesus?

<creepy>

[mike_c]

4. I'm speechless....

That is a truly scary pic.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

30. No, I don't really think so

Teenagers get this way.. with me, it was the Beatles. I don't think we can take them very seriously based on group behavior. I'm doubtful that it will turn out to have a lasting effect on very many of them.

Just wait until they get to college!

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

36. I dunno, TG... The Beatles preached love, tolerance and individualism...

These people preach divisiveness,goosestepping, intolerance and "we're right, everyone else is wrong."

[TallahasseeGrannie]

37. I hear you, Tom

but I still think that the adolescent human is the very definition of fickle. They yearn for two things: parental approval (though they hide it well) and acceptance. This emotional exercise can get them both. (although I think DU parents wouldn't be big with approval)

I personally bought into every damned thing my parents ever said until that first day in the dorm on campus! After that, it was all over.

And kids that don't go to college will get the same independence streak riled when they leave home.

I'm more concerned about church services with middle class-appearing folks with families engaging in the same hysteria because they have financial clout and they vote.

[FreedomAngel82]

40. I never cared about parental approval

I'm only twenty-three and remembered I never cared for parental approval. I wanted my parents to care about things I cared about with school (like coming to band concerts) but in the long run I was always myself whether my parents liked it or not. Even though I'm Christian they were never fundies with me or anything like that. My parents weren't strict and encouraged me to go out with friends on Friday night and I didn't ever really have a curfew either. I used to be a very shy kid so I guess they were just happy to have me out and about with people. Heh heh. My parents also really like paranormal stuff like "Twilight Zone," "Medium," "Ghost Whisperer" etc. At first my mother didn't like me watching "Charmed" but now they could care less. My mother used to go to concerts and she liked Elvis Presley (even has a picture of him from a concert she saw) and let me go to concerts too. Mostly tenniebopper stuff except with Jonny Lang a few years ago.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

42. you have exceptional parents

enjoy them! They are your best friends.

[FreedomAngel82]

56. Yep

I think them letting me watch "Charmed" when I was in high school is enough proof for me. Haha. And my dad is a deacon himself and right now is watching "Ghost Whisperer" with my Mom and me and one of his favorite shows is "Medium" (he also really loved "American Dreams" but that went off the air).

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

53. I agree and disagree.... I started rebelling in the 7th grade....

My parents made the mistake that I read A LOT before I ever hit school...

By the time I was 12, I was enamored by Tim Leary (Who I later got to know and love as a Friend) and the counter culture.

In some ways, I wish I was not so well read. In 6th grade, I turned in a book report on Mein Kampf....

Too much education is a bad thing if you want control over your youth :)

:toast: Luv ya!

[FreedomAngel82]

57. Yep

That's why they're dumbing down our country not only with Bush not funding NCLB but with how they do the "news". Compare our "news" to that of BBC for example. Now when kids are reading (specifically "Harry Potter" and the like) they want them to stop. Go figure.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

74. Ah, Tom..I know you well

well, not YOU but kids like you. I teach kids with IQ's over 135 and your story is not unique. We lose those kids actually faster than we lose kids from the poorest neighbhorhoods who drop out.

You evidently dropped out in an entirely different way!

Leary was a fascinating character. Have you ever written about your experiences?

[Perky]

76. Stone

Meet Glasshouse.


Talk about intolerance.

So they are not allowed in the public quare and they are not allowed to worship as they choose in their own churches either?

[Bill McBlueState]

79. huh?

Who said anything about not allowing something? Did someone suggest that this church should be outlawed? Which post was that?

[JanMichael]

5. Oh my zorb...read this:

"Emily Hoogenboom said she went to Forest Ridge largely out of respect for her parents, whose friends founded it about five years ago. But when Emily steps into New Life, she embraces a second family. Other youths come and hug her. They hug all the time, boys and girls showing affection for one another without risking trouble."

Bwahahahaha! Man, what a laugh. As a teen in Wichita my best friend went to his evangelical youth group (Much smaller than these MEGA churches today) mainly for the activities one of which was playing grab ass with a cute blond.

Gimme a break, these kids are no different. Unless of course they've all had full frontal lobotomies...

[FreedomAngel82]

41. Of course they aren't

I remember at my church in the youth group all the popular jocks had their girlfriends and came to church once for a New Year's eve party. I was still in high school or early college and was leaving with my Mom and brother (I think my dad came later) and we saw this guy who's dad is a deacon at my church cuddling with his girlfriend at his car. They were super close and all that just like you see at high school parking lots.

[tularetom]

7. Wish I would have met

some chicks as dumb as Emily 40 years ago when I was in HS.

[FreedomAngel82]

43. If their parents knew they would

be pushing for sexual education and protection. I remember CBS had a report on the "abstience only" pledges and 80% of them broke the promise. I also remember earlier this year or last year Laura Flanders interviewing this girl who's my age who was in Texas school systems when Bush was governor. He did the "abstience only" ordeal there and this girl said in the interview teens in the high school from all grades would come to her for education about sexual issues. And of course they all want Roe V Wade overturn too.

[htuttle]

8. There's so much, um, 'teenage tension' in that room...

...I'm betting they have a lot of trouble with dishes and chairs flying around due to poltergeist activity.

[patrice]

9. How does one recognize real Inspiration when one sees/experiences it?

These are some people who could use the basic facts about Neuro-biology so they can evaluate their stimulus/response experiences. They might ask themselves what the difference is between what they are experiencing here and whagt they experience at a championship basketball or football game.

Just because you're high on whatever doesn't mean that it is "God" or "Jesus" speaking to you. And what happens when they aren't under the influence of the music/brainwashing: gossipping, cheating on school work, vanity, bigotry of all kinds . . . . But all of that's okay because you are "saved" and you know you are saved because you get your buzz on now and then.

The Christians whom I admire and respect are those who don't have ecstatic experiences (or other rewards) of any kind, but keep trying to live by the New Testament anyway.

[annabanana]

45. time to look up the "shakers" and the

"whirling dervishes" and other assorted holy rollers..

It's a self induced hypnotic state.. an actual trance. And it seems that some feel that your faith isn't "authentic" unless you are similarly entranced.

[FreedomAngel82]

46. Yes

Jesus said "wherever there are two or three people there is my church." Jesus was more about enlightment and spirituality. Not big bands and things like that. You can find enlightment in the easiest ways. Whether just walking through nature or just singing a song to yourself and even meditation. My preacher is teaching the college class now at my church and is trying to encourage us to spend at least fifteen minutes a lone with God just being there. Not whining or putting up a fake front or anything like that. There is some nice Christian music out there and I am glad for alternative's like that for those who don't like secular music but you shouldn't just use that for your enlightment and to get close to Jesus. Reading and understanding him is more important.

[mainegreen]

10. All I can say is "One day at band camp..."

Don't let them fool you. I'm sure some of them are faking to appease parents. Plus, don't you think a lot of hanky panky is being done sneakily there?

:evilgrin:

[progressivebydesign]

26. Actually, the wildest kids at my stepdaughter's school ARE those!

they're usually the skankiest kids down deep... they are the ones having sex... but unfortunately they've been taught that abstinence is the only way, so they're worried about being judged to get birth control. The schools here talk about sex ed, abstinence, and NO birth control. vicious cycle.

[johnaries]

11. I was a Jesus Freak in HS.

We even "got high" on Jesus through group prayer. We actually did get a kind of "high". It wears off. It's difficult to avoid reality forever. Although, apparently a lot of people manage it, somehow.

[Initech]

13. You can praise Jesus through karaoke now?

Wow... you'd think that would qualify as punishment in some countries!

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. My friend and I walked into a restaurant one Sunday

just in time for Christian Karaoke. I kid you not.

The food was great! :)

[SoCalDem]

14. Cultish indoctrination works..

Problem is.. you are just substituting ONE "problem" for another..
Teens are SUPPOSED to rebel and test the limits..The lucky/smart ones emerge on the other side, to adulthood, still intact and a lot smarter.. They can even become friends with their parents..

Indoctrinating them into a rapturous faux-religiosity messes them up..for a LONG time..because when the ones who still have some of their mind left. figure out how badly they were conned, they lose trust forever..

[patrice]

15. That is one of the sad things about it . . . .

Whatever truth Christianity does have to offer is eventually (after lots of seeking new sources of ever higher and deeper buzz) thrown out with the "bath water".

[FreedomAngel82]

47. There are some out there

who question if it's okay to have non-Christian friends and significant other's. I'm Christian and I had lots of friends growing up that weren't Christian and I think my world view is for the better. I even liked guys who weren't religious in any way and there's nothing wrong with that.

[rudeboy666]

16. Anti-Religious Bigotry?

Sure, they might look weird to some. And they are easy targets.

However, the reactions of many to them is plain bigotry.

[Lars39]

20. Naw, just being able to recognize cult behavior.

[progressivebydesign]

24. No... it's the recruitment of children, cult-style.

There is something really scary about that... it's one thing if it's adults, but these are kids who are being manipulated. We have a mega-church in our town... they spent NINE MILLION dollars on a building for recruiting youth into their church. They recruit by offering free food, parties, dance music, trips, etc. They say that if you go to their events they won't "preach" to you, which is bullshit. My younger stepdaughter attended an event put on by them. ALL of the kids were asked to "pledge their lives to Jesus", write out prayer requests for people they knew - complete with phone numbers so the church could call them, give all of their personal information, and do a bible study.

I have zero tolerance for recruiting children into these churches. It's one thing if your parents go to a church and you attend the sunday school and church group if you want to. I have a HUGE problem with mega-churches spending MILLIONS to recruit through unscrupulous ways...

My experience with some of the leaders of the mega christian youth crowd is that they try to identify kid's weaknesses and pounce on that. Much as that creepy-ass Young Life, who cruises the schools looking for kids... I have firsthand experience with all of this.

It's not anti-relious.. .sheesh, you sound like Bill O'Lielly.

[FreedomAngel82]

49. How do you know these kids didn't choose to be there?

I grew up in a Christian home and was raised in the church. As I got older and more mature I was able to make my own choices about religion and my parents were never fundies.

[knitter4democracy]

66. It's more complicated than that.

Some kids are choosing to be there of their own accord. They have the need to be a part of a loving family, and these churches give them that. The church leadership does it out of a good intention, no matter how creepy it is, and most of the time, the kids are safe there.

Some kids are there because their parents want them there. They have no choice, so they rebel in small ways against the church establishment (by what they wear, not bringing their Bible or study book to classes and all, and what they don't say and do). Those kids are probably fine in the long run.

Some kids are there as predators, looking for weaker kids to prey on. I know one religion major at our college who raped at least one girl at senior high camp and is now a pastor in the Church of the Nazarene in Ohio. The college higher-ups knew about it but never reported anything, as his defense was that he wasn't born again when he did it. From what I heard, though, he said that every year. He took advantage of the situation to hurt someone, and now he's a pastor and married to a friend of a friend of mine. *sigh* We tried to warn her, but she didn't want to listen.

Keep in mind that the adults involved are usually there because they feel led to do it. They believe that God wants them working with young adults and kids and feel that they're doing the right thing. I know that seems like an excuse, but it really is done with the best intentions.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

94. And they try to lure kids from other churches as well

I grew up as a preacher's kid in the 1960s, and we were what later became the ELCA Lutherans, liberal and open. My dad was evangelical, in that he believed in having conversion experiences, but he always emphasized that the result of one's conversion was supposed to be a loving attitude and good works.

However, the fundie groups were always trying to tell the kids from our church and other mainstream churches that they hadn't been baptized "correctly" and that the mainstream churches weren't "really Christian" because they served wine at Communion and allowed dancing and movies.

Two out of three sons of a family in our church were taken in by the fundies and are still fundies to this day, including one who is a prominent attorney for all sorts of right-wing test cases. I knew they had gone off the deep-end when they started picking on a girl in our school who did tarot readings, telling everyone that she was "possessed by the devil."

[FreedomAngel82]

48. Oh yes

I'm a Christian and I'm being a bigot towards people of my own faith. :eyes: I wish people would learn the proper words to use.

[QC]

52. Post a picture of people acting the same way at, say, a Santeria ritual,

along with some snarky comments, and see how people react. That will answer your question.

[Imagine My Surprise]

17. This type of thing is not new...David Wilkerson, back in 60's...

and 70's was doing the whole "Cross the the Switchblade" thang and I was not only a Jesus person but a 14 year old radio preacher. This kind of behaviour is no different than what went on in an 18th century Wesley revival -- only the music is different.

[Imagine My Surprise]

19. Not to mention nutcase Arthur Blessit who traveled the country with a huge

cross...I remember in 1969, my high school principal making the entire student body attend one of his "meetings" at our gym.

[scarletlib]

21. Conversions based on highly emotional states generally won't

last too long. Oh sure, there will be a few who are genuinely affected by the experience and have a truly life altering experience. However, it is my experience that these revival type of conversions do not last. Especially with kids.

[Imagine My Surprise]

22. Come to think of it...

that's probably the whole concept behind "revival" -- to revive those who were swept away at the last revival.

[progressivebydesign]

25. You're right about that.

Tho we have a mega-church in town that recruits kids through all kinds of free trips, and food, and events, I've noticed that many of the kids that were so gung-ho about it, are now calling it a cult, themselves.

[FreedomAngel82]

51. Wow, really?

You can usually tell when someone is really sincere or not. As long as these churches don't bug the hell out of someone to join that's fine with me. They can do whatever they want.

[FreedomAngel82]

50. I think it will be interesting

to see how much of the population is still proclaiming to be Christian in ten/twenty years as a Christian and person of faith. One thing I really love about the country is how we don't have a national religion so in ten/twenty years it could be any type of religion that could be mainstream.

[progressivebydesign]

23. HOW is this different than CULTS???

As a kid in the early 70s, we visited a hari-krishna temple as part of a consciousness raising curriculum. The chanting and the drumming and the atmposphere was pretty much like you see in that photo... yet somehow less creepy.

My oldest stepdaughter attended a church group mega-retreat a few years ago, at the invitation of a fellow school band member. She came back from it and told me that it is much like a mass hysteria. They had a band like that story indicates, and the kids were singing, and crying, and waving their hands over their heads, and falling to the ground... My stepdaughter said that she found herself getting into it an crying and feeling "wierd" and feeling it... like a mass hysteria. She later realized, on the way home, that she was pulled into it because of the spectical of it and the strong emotions.. and she didnt' doubt that kids are recruited to do some of those things to increase the crazy atmposphere.

There is something wrong in America. Something very, very, wrong. Mega churches are about mega-bucks and egos and marketing.

[AnnieBW]

27. More Members

The difference between a cult and a religion - more members.

[Warren DeMontague]

28. There is an awful lot of pent up energy

in sexual frustration.

[Kansas Wyatt]

29. What happened to the "Deprogramming" people who...

Deprogrammed people who had been brainwashed by Religious Cults?

Instead of small religious cults in the 70s & 80s, now we have Mega Religious Cults.

[MrSlayer]

31. The more of this I see the more I think I should become a preacher.

These people are just begging to be ripped off. It certainly would be easier than working for a living.

[knitter4democracy]

32. I went to one of those.

It's called Mount Vernon Nazarene College. :eyes:

Trust me, that whole thing got pretty old pretty quick after required chapel three times a week, highly encouraged Wednesday and Sunday night services (everything on campus shut down during the service times), and revivals every semester.

Sometimes it's genuine, but a lot of the time, it's more of a way of letting off steam. A lot of those kids probably have major crap to deal with in their lives, and this church gives them a sense of belonging and family that they don't have anywhere else in their lives. I know that's a major reason I stayed in the Nazarene church for so long.

[FreedomAngel82]

55. That's why I like to keep things simple

My church is considered "old fashioned" by comparison to all these megachurches. We don't have bands, choirs, or anything like that. We do have get togethers were we fellowship as a congregation and the youth group does stuff together and sometimes the college group I'm apart of does things. But the college group not so much since we're all busy with our lives. I like smaller groups myself because you become closer and you can be yourself there. Having a concert (not apart of a worship service with me) or something like that every once in a while isn't a totally bad thing. Every person needs someway to re-energize their spirits and people do that in different ways. I do that by going to worship, getting a lone time with myself or doing something else that makes me happy as a person. The world is tough and you need something that makes you keep going and hoping for something better and having friends with common intrest's.

[knitter4democracy]

64. It's why we changed churches.

We're Eastern Orthodox now. We found that we needed liturgy and printed prayers and candles and icons and Communion every Sunday. We needed the things that keep us going through the week every week and not just when they had a special speaker come into town or when the preacher was really on fire. We also needed something that felt more authentic, and for us, that was the Eastern Orthodox Church.

I also like smaller churches. It's nice to know everyone (or almost everyone) and feel supported that way.

I think the differences in how we all need to worship is why there are so many different churches out there. It makes sense, as we're all very different and have different needs. I hope those kids are finding what they're searching for and are safe while they're doing it.

[KatyaR]

90. I've always thought that worship was mean to be respectful.

I think this type of 'worship' is just entertainment. I see so many families in my area who join a church simply because "our kids like it, it has a good youth group, etc.," when they have no idea what the denomination believes or teaches. It's just what the kids want. The parents go along with it because at least their kids are going to a church of some kind.

That's why I left the Episcopal Church--the one in my town was growing at an alarming rate, and most of the new members didn't have a clue what the Episcopal Church was about.

I, too, joined the Eastern Orthodox Church, because of the respect I found there during worship. God was worshiped and revered there--he wasn't expected to "entertain" anyone. It was also a plus that they didn't want to be a "megachurch."

Unfortunately, due to several problems with the priest there, as well as issues I found I had with being a member of such a conservative church when I was a "flaming" liberal, I no longer belong to any church.

For me, it comes down to the fact that church is not meant to be entertaining but to be a means for you to worship God. I know not everyone agrees with that sentiment, but it's what I believe.

[proud patriot]

33. there is something very Un RockNRoll about this

x(

[PatriotGames]

35. Bwahaha! Learn 'em young so they can send more money when...

they get a job! Nice business model.

[Parche]

38. cult

Brainwashing, be afraid of the kool aid......its grape

[StellaBlue]

39. my question: why don't you get pictures like this out of EUROPE?

anyone?

(This is a rhetorical question - I lived in Europe for four years until this summer. It's a comparative paradise.)

[Scurrilous]

44. There were pictures like this taken in Europe...

...Nuremberg 1934-38.

[StellaBlue]

73. ooooh, great point n/t

[Lydia Leftcoast]

96. A German-born colleague at one of the places I taught

went with me to the school's chapel once when a traveling black gospel choir was "guest starring" at the weekly chapel service.

The choir was really good, but in between the songs, there was a preacher who would "testify."

My German colleague said that even though she liked the music, the "testifying" made her very uncomfortable, because the preacher's interactions with the crowd reminded her of films of Hitler Youth Rallies.

[Perky]

77. Actuall the NEW WINE movement in the UK

IS remarkabley similiar. Its mostly young Charismatics.

[rockymountaindem]

54. I presume they mean New Life here in CS, but I don't see anyone I know...

I'm friends with some kids whose families go to that church. We never really talk about it.

[donheld]

58. .

[cantstandbush]

59. Personnaly, I don't have a problem with this. If kids can become

frenzied cultist for Michael Jackson and other sick entainers, this is nothing that bothers me.

[SPKrazy]

61. Agreed

Especially if it keeps them off the streets, out of gangs, and off drugs!

[boobooday]

60. Colorado Springs

From what I understand, the megachurch is probably the only thing to do in Colorado Springs . . . or at least the biggest venue for a rock concert. Religion is their biggest industry, isn't it?

On edit: besides the military.

[Mr.Green93]

62. Where are the snakes?

They need snakes.

[Maestro]

67. They're too busy

babbling in tongues. :eyes:

[knitter4democracy]

68. Wrong denomination.

My freshman roomie was from one of those churches, though. Even she thought it was scary.

[DemGirl7]

63. looks like the next generation of Pod People

I'm sorry if I offended any level-headed christians, but to me these people look like the next generation of sheeple, who are going to be brainwashed into voting against their own interests. I mean it's a megachurch, which in a way means the pastors are only in it for the money, and nothing else.

[Maestro]

65. What effin idiots! These people make me sick.

I detest them; not because they are religious but so dumb. I can't stand people who accept everything without question. A good liberal Christian is always questioning, studying, doing his or her best to learn how to live like Jesus taught. These fools wouldn't know Jesus if he ass kicked them and told them who he was. Hell, they would probably think he was the anti-Christ.

P.S. I wish I had a link, but there was study done in which those freakin' evangelicals who pledge a vow abstinence are actually at a higher risk for STD's because they experiment more with anal and oral sex to maintain their "technical" virginity. :eyes: It was in one of the most recent Time magazines.

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SmileyBoy]

69. This is almost the antithesis of me.

I go pray at mosque once a week, every Friday, or at least I TRY to. I have a basic relationship with God. I believe in him and worship him. I believe that the Five Pillars were the basic rules of God that were sent to humans, and I pray that barring an accident, I will have been able to follow all of them before I die. I don't tell anyone else how to worship, I keep it all to myself. I've been harrassed by some christofascists on my campus lately, I'll tell you what. These people are completely different from me.

[Ariana Celeste]

70. Kudos to those who want to be there. I didn't.

Worst part of my life was 14-15 yrs old, going to mega churches with my uncle because I thought it would make him love me. Sad thing is that's the most attention I ever got from him in my life except for when he was preaching at me and telling me all the things that were wrong with me. I wonder how many of those kids are there for the same reason I went to them. The last time I went to one, was the time the minister/preacher dude started knocking people on the ground, and it looked like he was coming for me next. I bolted.
Fuck all that.

[OneBlueSky]

71. Jim Jones, call your office . . . n/t

.

[LibDemAlways]

72. Can you imagine the screaming and

moaning and carrying on that would be happening if these kids received a draft notice? That would be something to behold - parents would join right in too.

Teens will do whatever's necessary to fit in. In a setting like this, most kids will take their cue from the leaders and join in. I'd be willing to bet, though, there's a small contingent out in the far reaches of the parking lot of kids who get dropped off by parents but who wouldn't go in there if their lives depended on it.

[Perky]

75. Some of you folks ought to be ashamed of yourselves.

Instead of sitting at home with PS@ or XBOX; Or wasting away on the internet. Instead of going out and doing drugs or binge drinking; instead of having sex indiscriminately. These kids are in church praising God. volitionally.

They have an absolute, constitutionally-protected right to do worship anyway they choose.

Fins if it is not your cup of tea. I think given the choices kids face today....these kids actions are laudable. Yet you choose to sit in judgment and ridicule them for what they apparently have chose to believe.

Your hypercritical of their parents; you say they have been brainwashed, but you never deal with what may well be an authentic expression of Christian faith.

I swear some of you just hate Christians for hating Christians.

You don't want them in the public square and you don't want them worshiping GOD in their own Churches.


WHat would you suggest Christians do as an expression of their faith,

[Bill McBlueState]

80. yes, the poor persecuted minority

I mean, 85% majority. The poor Christians are always legally prevented from doing their thing. And they're always arrested when they try to pass out literature, and they never get their own TV shows, what with all the Hindus taking up Sunday morning. It's a good thing we have fierce defenders of the Constitution in this thread, otherwise the 15% who aren't Christian would be rounding up the 85% and sending them to Auschwitz, Montana.

[Perky]

82. Absolutely indidiuous response.

THese folks are in their church, trying to connect connect with God and foks in hear call them goosstepper, dub,, pod people, ad nauseum.

I object in gerneal terms because it is a insesitive, unknowing and mean. ANd the response I get is that I am pulloing theso-called" persecutiuon" card.


YOuy have to do better than that IMHO. Because I was not claiming persecution I was claiming the comments were bigoted.

The photo was completely apolitical and a completely religious expression in a church facility. I will say it again... what is authentic CHristianity suppose to look like if this is not it? And I will ask this question as well... what gives anyone thr right to say what is proper expression of religious worship?

[trotsky]

84. The photo may be apolitical, but the story is not.

Just look at some of who they interviewed.

"We see it all the time, everywhere," said Jose Zayas, director of teenage evangelism for Focus on the Family, a conservative Christian group based in Colorado Springs. "They gravitate to where they feel a connection. They're more pragmatic than their parents' generation. They look at what works for them. I think it's healthy."

[Perky]

87. SO what's your point?

Nothing particulaurly maleovent in the comment. WOuld you prefer they sit in the pews for an hour and go home without out any spiritual connectiohn at all?

[trotsky]

92. This is all about training the next generation of Dobsons & Falwells.

Find me a megachurch that's about the supposedly "true" message of Christ and helping others and giving freely instead of building yourself a mall with a Starbucks and other amenities, and calling it a church.

The leaders of this "youth movement" are taking advantage of the same foibles that lead kids into any other kind of addiction - peer pressure, desire for acceptance, need for a "high," etc. THAT'S what is horrible.

[Perky]

93. AN acute over-generalization.

You have no idea what these kids think and why they are there or what their pastors are saying.

Falwell, Robertson and Dobson, might be totally shocked by what these kids are doing ad being taught. But they do not get to decide what is taught or how people can worship. ANd neither should anyone else.

Look at Willowcreek in Chicago

Look at Joel Osteens' work in Houston.

Look at Vineyard Churches anywhere. (Evangelical, charismatic, congregational, intentionally apolitical and culturally diverse)

You would never see Falwell lifting his hands like that or Dobson for that matter. The appeal of the Churches I mention is that they are not out to bully society like the fundies are so apt to do. Their focus is on meeting people where they are at. The focus in on worshiping God rather than on sin.

It a very refreshing approach.

What would you expect a CHurch service to look like?

[enki23]

81. what would i suggest christians do to express their faith?

i'd say they should test it, by thinking long and hard on the absurdity of believing in a monstrous diety which has arbitrarily determined that creatures from the species Homo sapiens must believe in its existance. they should consider how this belief must be held in spite of overwhelming evidence against many if not most of its factual assertions, and in spite of nearly no evidence in their favor. consider that belief in its chief figure has famously, and often, been defended by saying he could only have been lunatic, liar, or lord. think about how one must neglect to think too hard about how that famous phrase might, with small alteration in some cases, apply equally to such diverse figures as the buddha, david koresh, oj simpson, mohammed, mall santas, the guy down the street who thinks he's the reincarnation of marie antoinette... and be aware of how this begs at least these questions: did this figure really exist at all, and are the accounts describing him reasonably accurate?

they should think about the assertion that one must accomplish all this, to maintain this irrational and unsupported belief, or suffer eternal--yes that's ETERNAL--punishment. and one must believe that there are humans, *most* humans, who deserve the eternal wrath of their petulant, capricious, and thoroughly demonic diety.

so i suggest that the best expression of ones desire to be a part of something good, and true, would be to meditate on this: that all people who would believe in--and claim to revere--this truly evil diety, must be lunatics, liars, or unredeemably evil themselves.

but that's just me. it's a free country, after all. there's room for every kind of insanity, so long as the insane stay relatively nonviolent. well, the members of minority insanities anyway. and the minority who are, actually, sane, for that matter.

[trotsky]

83. What a false... uhh... 1, 2, 3, 4... quadrilemma!

Your four other options are the only other things these kids might do instead of go to church?

Perky, this kind of shut-all-other-viewpoints-out mindcontrol way of teaching Christianity goes straight to the problem you illustrate in ALL your other "alternatives." They are nurturing and feeding an ADDICTION. And like any addiction, it will become a problem in the rest of their life.

This is not "hating Christians," no matter how much you wish it were the case so that you may validate your own persecuted faith.

[Perky]

85. I never said it was perecution

I that the only come-back you people have. I am only suggesting that calling these kids goosestepperr and Pod People is bigoted.

[trotsky]

86. No, it's not the only comeback.

But I think more than a few of us have seen you play that card many, many times on DU.

[Perky]

89. I HAVE NEVER called anything "PERSECUTION"

NOT A single time. I just think its bigoted and arrogant... Hardly the same thing.


IN fact its not even close to the same thing.

[onager]

88. No, I don't want them in the public square

Whenever a large mob of Xians gather in the public square, they're usually about to lynch one of us atheists.

I'm temporarily working/living in Egypt, where I've noticed an odd thing this Joyous Holiday Season. And it was borne out by a local newspaper article today. Celebrations of Xmas and New Year's are becoming very popular here. As I walk around Alexandria, I see lots of stores with Santa and Xmas trees in the windows. This in a country that's about 95% Muslim.

Happily, the Egyptians seem to have adopted the good parts of Xmas, like giving gifts, and junked the bad parts, like Jesus.

[enki23]

91. they haven't, however, ditched their own cultural insanities

.

[jokerman93]

95. this is where

This is where all the repressed fundie sexuality gets channeled - directly into hysterical self-hypnosis. Works on a similar psychological model to the old nazi rallies. These children are ripe for the picking by any authoritarian who can pay for air time or a church hall and pronounce the word "jeebuzz".

[Avalux]

97. Locking.

This thread has become inflammatory and may be offensive to christian DUers. Thanks for understanding.